italo:
^^^

I remember you. The same idiott that said there were two Jesuses and two gospels. We know that it is better talking to a goat than talking to you.

The same you is calling me dumb?

Then I rejoice.

By the way, what is the title of the senseless poem you wrote up there?

Calling you dumb isn't an insult par se, it is proven by your usual practice of baseless arguments. You pick a part of scripture you want to major your belief on, and dismiss other parts of scripture for no logical or spiritual reason.

Throwing insults on a faceless forum like this does not make you more relevant on religious threads as this (you might thrive in the politics section). it only proves who you are behind the mask of the Catholic front. I hope no one uses you as a standard to weigh all other members of the Roman Catholic.

I hope this does not also affect other parts of your life where you will be found wanting from dealing with issues from the place of knowledge and understanding but from the place of insults, single mindedness, and parochialism.

shdemidemi:
This italo guy is something else, phew!

Take the nairaland award for dumbest arguments, if anything of the nature exist. Imagine if you were Peter in the trance, been asked by the same God who had earlier said all you shall eat is kosher. All of a sudden the same God appears to say, 'now, eat this four footed beast', will you stand there to argue or refuse based on what He had said before.

Isn't God sovereign! The same God that gave israel the temple worship and killing of bulls and other rituals for atonement of sins says 'none of that anymore', now there is a one off sacrifice that does not only atone but remit the sins once and for all.

Likewise, the same Jesus who obeyed the laws and the works of the law before his death gave Paul the message of 'the gift of salvation apart from works'.

James, Peter and the rest never had this full revelation and the holistic meaning of 'the power of God unto salvation to all who will believe'. How could they? They had lived all their lives practicing these things and also with the master practicing similar things without reproach, simply because the time had not come for the shift. Peter, James and the rest still worshipped in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem for a long while after the death of Christ, not until it was eventually brought down.

Peter realised the meaning of the death of Christ when he visited cornelius who happen to be a gentile. He did not visit cornelius without making it clear that it was anathema before christ died for him to be found in the house of a gentile. To his surprise, Jesus revealed Himself even among the gentiles who knew nothing about the law or works the jews practice.

Peter did not only become an alibi to Paul when the jews felt all Paul was preaching was heresy, he also pointed them to Paul's message if they must be saved.
2 pet 3:15
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,


I implore you, my friend to read your Acts of Apostles to understand the swift change in administration and dispensation that brought most of the religious practices even in the four gospels obsolete.

I knew it would eventually come down to this. But you shouldn't have taken it personal. I left the argument in wisdom and good faith when it became obvious it was futile.

dein77:


I knew it would eventually come down to this. But you shouldn't have taken it personal. I left the argument in wisdom and good faith when it became obvious it was futile.

That would have been the best thing to do if ones focus is on the 'italo' guy himself. Bu it isn't so, many other people read these things, we never can tell who these things might just lead to go check what the fuss is about. By that, someone else might grow and some might even get saved.

We never can tell who is reading these things, just for their sake we add whatever God has placed on our heart to say. The likes of Italo are there for a reason, he is also fulfilling his own calling. Everything is for a purpose. There is nothing anyone will tell him that will amount to anything except God does the work of making the heart receptive to it. It is God who calls and when and if He calls, no man can refuse to heed or disobey that call.

Personally, I also learn from people's argument on this faceless forum just to know what is in the mind of people. It gives advance knowledge and preparedness for what one might face even among the saints.

PastorOluT:


The truth is u cant be genuinely saved n continue in bad 'work' or sin as the case maybe. But u should never forget the fact that we r all growing to maturity unto the fulness of Christ, so a babe in Christ would still exhibit carnality. But as he grows up to maturity he conforms more to Christ.

Now the problem comes when one claim to have given his life to Christ for some considerable no of yrs n there seem to be no difference or sign of growth.

Now I dont believe any can accept Chriist genuinely n be damned, many that still persist in evil works r liars n hypocrites n never genuiinely met with Christ whiich is why they can never change.

It all boiils down to genuinely accepting Christ. Can a good tree bear a bad fruit, n if it does it means it wasnt a good tree after all.

To make it simple,

Have you genuinely accepted Christ?

And do you still sin?

*this is where you will try to change topic, run away, or tell another big LIE.

dein77:

I knew it would eventually come down to this. But you shouldn't have taken it personal. I left the argument in wisdom and good faith when it became obvious it was futile.

shdemidemi:

Calling you dumb isn't an insult par se, it is proven by your usual practice of baseless arguments. You pick a part of scripture you want to major your belief on, and dismiss other parts of scripture for no logical or spiritual meaning.
Throwing insults on a faceless forum like this does not make you more relevant in religious threads as this (you might thrive in the politics section). it only proves who you are behind the mask of the Catholic front. I hope no one uses you as a standard to weigh all other members of the Roman Catholic.
I hope this does not also affect other parts of your life where you will be found wanting from dealing with issues from the place of knowledge and understanding but from the place of insults, single mindedness, and parochialism.

shdemidemi:


That would have been the best thing to do if ones focus is on the 'italo' guy himself. Bu it isn't so, many other people read these things, we never can tell who these things might just lead to go check what the fuss is about. By that, someone else might grow and some might even get saved.

We never can tell who is reading these things, just for their sake we add whatever God has placed on our heart to say. The likes of Italo are there for a reason, he is also fulfilling his own calling. Everything is for a purpose. There is nothing anyone will tell him that will amount to anything except God does the work of making the heart receptive to it. It is God who calls and when and if He calls, no man can refuse to heed that call.

Personally, I also learn from people's argument on this faceless forum just to know what is in the mind of people. It gives advance knowledge and preparedness for what one might face even among the saints.

Bloody hypocrites trying desperately to evade the issue and cover their heresy.

"A man is justified by his works, not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

You disagree with that statement of the Holy Spirit.

That makes your doctrine devilish.

Simple.

vest:
my Blive I Am Saved, I Am Being Save And I Will Be Save. A Continus Proces Nt A 1time Tin

Since U Are Saved, Wat If U Do Bad Works Tomoro(i.e Sin) Can U Lost It?

Salvation is never a continuous process. Except you want Jesus to die afresh every time you ask for forgiveness. There is a place of judgement the unbelievers will not even feature -the judgment seat of Christ, the Bema seat.

Bema is simply the Greek word for judgment seat. It came from the Olympics - the seat of the judges. This will only be for believers and the Body of Christ who one day will come before the Bema Seat for rewards.

We will definitely get rewards based on our Christian walk in this life here on earth. Of course, the rewards are going to come to their fruition primarily in the Kingdom economy. Where Christ will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the world wide Ruler, and we will be ruling and reigning with Him.



I Corinthians 3:14

"If any man's work abide (survives His scrutiny) which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive (not salvation, but) a reward."



I Corinthians 9:24

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all (they all take off at the starting gun. But how many receive the prize?), but one receiveth the prize? (now who determines the winners? Judges who sit on the Bema Seat) so run, that ye may obtain."


Our race as christians is to obtain a prize, a reward and not salvation. Salvation is sealed for anyone who has the Spirit of Christ in him.

PASTOR OLU gave a balanced argument when he said anyone that perpetually chase after sinful acts might not have God living in hi in the first place. I respect that. We must also look at it from the angle of carnality due to the weakness of our flesh like he did. What people tend to call sin or 'big' sin is anything relating to sex forgetting that God sees those things we do not pay much attention to as big and monstrous- lying, covetousness, selfishness and even the way we think as monumental sin as well.

Peter faced Jesus with the same attitude of holier than thou, but Jesus made him realise how human Peter is- Peter was told he will fall and how it will all happen. Even after having a prior notice, he fell all the same due to the weakness of flesh. Jesus never said when you fall you shall die but He said 'when thou hath converted, strenghten the rest' that are like you.

No man in the flesh is above a fall, and our salvation isn't hanging on whether we fall but it hangs on the blood of the lamb that can never be washed off.

italo:


To make it simple,

Have you genuinely accepted Christ?

And do you still sin?

*this is where you will try to change topic, run away, or tell another big LIE.

Dont ever quote me again 'cos I have never seen someone so unreasonable.

Vest ask ur question n I will be glad to answer!

shdemidemi:



Salvation is never a continuous process. Except you want Jesus to die afresh every time you ask for forgiveness. There is a place of judgement the unbelievers will not even feature -the judgment seat of Christ, the Bema seat.

Bema is simply the Greek word for judgment seat. It came from the Olympics - the seat of the judges. This will only be for believers and the Body of Christ who one day will come before the Bema Seat for rewards.

We will definitely get rewards based on our Christian walk in this life here on earth. Of course, the rewards are going to come to their fruition primarily in the Kingdom economy. Where Christ will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the world wide Ruler, and we will be ruling and reigning with Him.



I Corinthians 3:14

"If any man's work abide (survives His scrutiny) which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive (not salvation, but) a reward."



I Corinthians 9:24

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all (they all take off at the starting gun. But how many receive the prize?), but one receiveth the prize? (now who determines the winners? Judges who sit on the Bema Seat) so run, that ye may obtain."


Our race as christians is to obtain a prize, a reward and not salvation. Salvation is sealed for anyone who has the Spirit of Christ in him.

PASTOR OLU gave a balanced argument when he said anyone that perpetually chase after sinful acts might not have God living in hi in the first place. I respect that. We must also look at it from the angle of carnality due to the weakness of our flesh like he did. What people tend to call sin or 'big' sin is anything relating to sex forgetting that God sees those things we do not pay much attention to as big and monstrous- lying, covetousness, selfishness and even the way we think as monumental sin as well.

Peter faced Jesus with the same attitude of holier than thou, but Jesus made him realise how human Peter is- Peter was told he will fall and how it will all happen. Even after having a prior notice, he fell all the same due to the weakness of flesh. Jesus never said when you fall you shall die but He said 'when thou hath converted, strenghten the rest' that are like you.

No man in the flesh is above a fall, and our salvation isn't hanging on whether we fall but it hangs on the blood of the lamb that can never be washed off.

Well said bro, God bless u.

italo:


Show me where the passage says that.

Has the event in Mat 25 occured? I still maintain that they are not saved. Go back to Mathew 24:13 and read from there. The context is the tribulation, the time of great judgement on earth. Salvation is not of works, it is a free gift. We are saved to do good works, we are not saved because of good works.

What I can see the passage say is "for I was hungry and you gave me to eat"...etc (good works)
.

Believers are saved to do good works and good works is not only limited to acts of charity alone.

The thief prayed to Jesus. Prayer is a good work. Prayer is all he had the opportunity to do...and he did it.

Lol, you must be joking right? Prayer is simply communication with God and the thief was a sinner, he needed salvation which was freely given to him by Jesus without any good work he had done and this butress our point that salvation is a free gift received by faith alone in Christ alone.

italo:


Bloody hypocrites trying desperately to evade the issue and cover their heresy.

"A man is justified by his works, not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

You disagree with that statement of the Holy Spirit.

That makes your doctrine devilish.

Simple.

James emphasize that real real faith will produce fruit at some point if you had read the context of the whole letter without your usual cherry picking you would have seen that. The absence of works is to question the faith to begin with.

It is different from your view point that it is faith+ works= salvation. This is totally wrong.

James is saying that if you have a living faith in Jesus Christ, the normal natural response of that faith will be works. The works in this case justify or PROVE the faith.

Works in themselves are not enough as salvation is by GRACE through FAITH which is a free gift of God( Eph 2:8-9).

shdemidemi:

Salvation is never a continuous process. Except you want Jesus to die afresh every time you ask for forgiveness. There is a place of judgement the unbelievers will not even feature -the judgment seat of Christ, the Bema seat.
Bema is simply the Greek word for judgment seat. It came from the Olympics - the seat of the judges. This will only be for believers and the Body of Christ who one day will come before the Bema Seat for rewards.
We will definitely get rewards based on our Christian walk in this life here on earth. Of course, the rewards are going to come to their fruition primarily in the Kingdom economy. Where Christ will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the world wide Ruler, and we will be ruling and reigning with Him.
I Corinthians 3:14
"If any man's work abide (survives His scrutiny) which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive (not salvation, but) a reward."
I Corinthians 9:24
"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all (they all take off at the starting gun. But how many receive the prize?), but one receiveth the prize? (now who determines the winners? Judges who sit on the Bema Seat) so run, that ye may obtain."
Our race as christians is to obtain a prize, a reward and not salvation. Salvation is sealed for anyone who has the Spirit of Christ in him.
PASTOR OLU gave a balanced argument when he said anyone that perpetually chase after sinful acts might not have God living in hi in the first place. I respect that. We must also look at it from the angle of carnality due to the weakness of our flesh like he did. What people tend to call sin or 'big' sin is anything relating to sex forgetting that God sees those things we do not pay much attention to as big and monstrous- lying, covetousness, selfishness and even the way we think as monumental sin as well.
Peter faced Jesus with the same attitude of holier than thou, but Jesus made him realise how human Peter is- Peter was told he will fall and how it will all happen. Even after having a prior notice, he fell all the same due to the weakness of flesh. Jesus never said when you fall you shall die but He said 'when thou hath converted, strenghten the rest' that are like you.
No man in the flesh is above a fall, and our salvation isn't hanging on whether we fall but it hangs on the blood of the lamb that can never be washed off.

Endorsed.

[quote author=PastorOluT post=27158935]

Dont ever quote me again 'cos I have never seen someone so unreasonable.

Pastor, you don tire? I had to quit the argument for the sake of sanity.

italo:
Striving against sin is part of holiness.

Striving to do good always is part of holiness.

These are the things that you scammers avoid.

Show me where I said "holiness=sinlessness!"

Really? Since striving against sin is part of holiness.....have YOU stopped sinning since you're striving and since you came to Christ? And where is that supported in scriptures?

Striving to do good work, even though I support doing good as taught by scriptures; but how does doing good PART OF HOLINESS? Where is that supported in scriptures?

You don't preach holiness as sinlessness but you support the holiness movement which the OP is all about, not that he endorse sin.

@ dein77,

I had to quit the thread too because arguing with italo is just a different experience every time I engage in it. But before I go finally, we'll all look at what James was saying compared to what other authors said BY THE SAME SPIRIT OF GOD.

I will post it soon and possibly answer some questions directed at me, if I still have time.

Goshen360:
@ dein77,

I had to quit the thread too because arguing with italo is just a different experience every time I engage in it. But before I go finally, we'll all look at what James was saying compared to what other authors said BY THE SAME SPIRIT OF GOD.

I will post it soon and possibly answer some questions directed at me, if I still have time.

Ok. As long as it will be a sane discussion. I'm waiting. Learning never stops!

@italo...i have been reading all the comments you made...and i felt
compelled to inquire some things from you..hope you don't mind..?

1.)Between FAITH and WORKS ,which comes FIRST ?

2.)Give reaseons,according to scriptures, why the ONE you chose comes first.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? Romans 4:1

First, Paul, the Apostle was about going into the issue of righteousness\justification by WORKS or BY FAITH\BELIEVING (in what Christ had done to make us righteous\justified). Notice, here, he, Paul was addressing the Jewish people who are soaked in WORKS......that is, DOING SOMETHING TO MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.....WORKS. So, he addressed them, Abraham our forefather ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. But Abraham is also father of THEM WHO ARE OF FAITH. So, Abraham is a two-fold man.

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

We must understand that WORKS is always used in TWO ways in scriptures - WORKS, doing something TO MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN. 2. Works, doing something BECAUSE YOU BELIEVED IN SOMETHING or because SOMETHING HAD ALREADY HAPPENED. I will show these TWO WORKS from scriptures as I proceed.

Here, works....doing something to make something happen is always followed by boasting by the man who does such works. This is the case Paul was teaching about Abraham. If he was justified BY WORKS (DOING SOMETHING TO MAKE HIS JUSTIFICATION HAPPEN), then he will have something to boast of.

What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

The clear truth here is, BELIEVING GOD CAUSED ABRAHAM'S JUSTIFICATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE GOD. Plain and simple!!!

Paul, the Apostle went further....

New International Version
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

New Living Translation
When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.

New International Version
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

New Living Translation
But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

New International Version
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

New Living Translation
David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

So, in all the above scriptures, are we DOING SOMETHING FOR\TO EARN OUR JUSTIFICATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS OR WE ARE DOING SOMETHING BECAUSE WE ARE ALREADY JUSTIFIED AND DECLARED RIGHTEOUS?

Now, let's see what James (that italo ALWAYS hang on to teach his works based teachings)

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

James 2

Jame, the Apostle was simple teaching WORKS....that is produces by FAITH FIRST NOT WORKS THAT CAUSES US TO BE RIGHTEOUS. Let's look at it verse by verse.

v14: Faith that saves with corresponding actions\deeds\works. You already BELIEVE that feeding the poor is God's mind.....THAT IS YOUR FAITH but now, you see someone hungry but you tell him off, doing nothing while you can.....WHAT THEN IS THE EVIDENCE OF YOUR FAITH? This is not a doing you do to get favour from God, but a deed you do because you are already favoured and believe in God, to feed the poor. So, Jame, the Apostle said.....faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

v18: We have to parrallel vs18 with what he started in the above verses: When he's talking about

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

He actually was talking about I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH BY MY ACCOMPANIED ACTIONS....in verse 17.

vs20: Gives us a super clear picture again what James was teaching - THE EVIDENCE THAT ONE HAS FAITH OR THAT ONE BELIEVES. So he said, You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?. Again, this is a deed following FAITH of someone NOT deeds to gain something.

Now, he went into same Abraham like Paul did and Jame quoting the same scriptures AS PAUL DID. Are the saying TWO DIFFERENT THINGS BY QUOTING SAME SCRIPTURES? Absolutely certainly NOT!!! Let's look at it.

vs21&22: The subject of Jame is still the same from beginning - Corresponding actions BECAUSE OF ONE'S FAITH OR BELIEVE. For Abraham, it was a FAITH that was made complete or accompanied by his corresponding actions....showing he already believed and his believe produced actions as evidence. It's just like someone said he used to be in the world and now a Christian and people don't see any difference in your life. There must be evidence of a new life.....which is the fruit of our new creation in Christ.

James went further quoting:

23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

Abraham's declared righteous WAS NOT BECAUSE HE FIRST DID SOMETHING (WORKS\DEEDS) TO MAKE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS HAPPEN but he did something BECAUSE HE FIRST BELIEVED AND\OR HAVE FAITH, that's what cause his righteousness before God else he would have his works to boast on. But his works\deeds that James was talking about is the same subject he's been saying from verse 14, that is a corresponding actions to faith that shows the evidence of our faith.

So he said, "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." This statement is best understood in context from what he's been saying as.....You see that a person is considered righteous by FAITH\BELIEVING (vs23) AND WHAT THEY DO AS ACCOMPANIED ACTION (vs17) or as evidence of their believing\faith (vs20) NOT by faith alone.

Dux01:
@goshen preaching Holiness as sinlessness is preaching it the way it was taught in the bible.John said that anybody that commits sin is of the devil.he said that anybody that is born of God doth not commit sin because God's sin remains in him.But he also said that if we sin he is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.Jesus said that we should be perfect even as the Heavenly father is.He also said that the devil came to him and found nothing.Jesus wants us to be like that.the reason we repent daily is because we cannot be too clean to be washed by the blood beacause of our flesh.

Sir, kindly go back to I John and study again. He was writing to 3 categories of people. As "little children".....in faith or Christ, you will make mistakes or sin or make wrong choices. As a new born baby, you can put food in your eyes while trying to eat but when the effect take place, you will learn not to do so another day. Bottome line, grow up, from little children to fathers. Check how John addressed the "young men" and the "fathers" in Christ....if he was addressing same way. We're not justifying sin here but nowhere in scripture does holiness means or equal sinlessness. You can't do nothing to be holy but you are holy in Christ......meaning, you're sanctified, dedicated and separated unto God, through Christ. That's holiness.

If you want to be perfect as God. The day you attain that then you become God. Ask yourself, since you became born again, have you sinned? WILL you sin tomorrow and in future? If Holiness means sinlessness why do we keep asking for forgiveness of sins? I thought we're to be sinless. Again, the OP doesn't justify sin but the touch not, wear not, handle not doctrines of holiness preachers. Let's get away from this mentality of seeing sin virtually in everything a Christian does and get into more awareness of what Christ did for our righteousness before God.

PastorOluT:


The truth is u cant be genuinely saved n continue in bad 'work' or sin as the case maybe. But u should never forget the fact that we r all growing to maturity unto the fulness of Christ, so a babe in Christ would still exhibit carnality. But as he grows up to maturity he conforms more to Christ.

Now the problem comes when one claim to have given his life to Christ for some considerable no of yrs n there seem to be no difference or sign of growth.

Now I dont believe any can accept Chriist genuinely n be damned, many that still persist in evil works r liars n hypocrites n never genuiinely met with Christ whiich is why they can never change.

It all boiils down to genuinely accepting Christ. Can a good tree bear a bad fruit, n if it does it means it wasnt a good tree after all.

Good afternoon dear friend,

I believe in all you say which I just quoted. Still on this, can you answer me this one question..

What is the evidence that one has genuinely accepted Christ (the bold)??

jnrbayano:


Good afternoon dear friend,

I believe in all you say which I just quoted. Still on this, can you answer me this one question..

What is the evidence that one has genuinely accepted Christ (the bold)??

The evidence is good works. The argument with italo is that salvation is gotten by works, this is unscriptural. Human works of any kind are not the means of obtaining eternal life.

Read Roman 9:11, Eph 2:8-9, 2 tim 1:9;Titus 3-3-7.

Justification, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life are by the obedience of ONE-Jesus Christ.

God will NOT share His glory with another and salvation by works put God in a position of debt to sinners. Salvation is a FREE GIFT by the grace of God without works.

jnrbayano:


Good afternoon dear friend,

I believe in all you say which I just quoted. Still on this, can you answer me this one question..

What is the evidence that one has genuinely accepted Christ (the bold)??

Afternoon to u too, simple its a spiritual thing, when u have genuinely invited Jesus into ur heart willing to live for Him there after then the spirit testify with ur spirit that u are son of God.

Its a spiritual thing n not based on method or some spiritual incantation which mostly are sensual n physical.

So the evidence really is the work of righteousness that follows ur faith in Christ Jesus. When I declare myself being saved, old things would passed away n all things would become new. This happens spiritually first before manifesting physically.

PastorOluT:


Afternoon to u too, simple its a spiritual thing, when u have genuinely invited Jesus into ur heart willing to live for Him there after then the spirit testify with ur spirit that u are son of God.

Its a spiritual thing n not based on method or some spiritual incantation which mostly are sensual n physical.

So the evidence really is the work of righteousness that follows ur faith in Christ Jesus. When I declare myself being saved, old things would passed away n all things would become new. This happens spiritually first before manifesting physically.

Thanks for your answer

The bold is your answer to my question, put differently, "the extent/evidence of faith in Jesus which you have comes out through good works. No?"

Bidam:
The argument with italo is that salvation is gotten by works, this is unscriptural. Human works of any kind are not the means of obtaining eternal life.

Read Roman 9:11, Eph 2:8-9, 2 tim 1:9;Titus 3-3-7.

Justification, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life are by the obedience of ONE-Jesus Christ.

I Tink U Misunderstod Italo
From What He Has Being Saying I Can Summarize It As Thus:
We Dnt Earn Our Salvation Rather Its By God's Grace Alone An Inheritance(gal5:21) Freely Given To Any 1 Who Becoms A Child Of God(1jn3:1)so Long As They Remain Children Of God, U Can't Earn It By Any Tin Wther By Faith Or Any Tin Its By God Grace Alone Cus Of The Love He Has 4 Us But We Can Loss It From God(jame 1:17)
It Is Just Lyk A Free Gift Given To Us We Have To Co-operate With God that is Bliv Dis Gift Exist( Have Faith) And Stretch Out Our Hands To Recieve It( good works)

the problem here is when you say our works are nt necessary(good Or Bad) that only what we Have To do is simply blive.
even demons blive christ is lord and cal him lord

it is because of christ grace that our faith can even save us if nt for his grace our faith is completly useless so is our good work.

once again we ar saved by God's Grace Alone Through Our Faith In Christ Working Through Love Nd Charity In Christ Inspired By The Holy Spirit

vest:


I Tink U Misunderstod Italo
From What He Has Being Saying I Can Summarize It As Thus:
We Dnt Earn Our Salvation Rather Its By God's Grace Alone An Inheritance(gal5:21) Freely Given To Any 1 Who Becoms A Child Of God(1jn3:1)so Long As They Remain Children Of God, U Can't Earn It By Any Tin Wther By Faith Or Any Tin Its By God Grace Alone Cus Of The Love He Has 4 Us But We Can Loss It From God(jame 1:17)
It Is Just Lyk A Free Gift Given To Us We Have To Co-operate With God that is Bliv Dis Gift Exist( Have Faith) And Stretch Out Our Hands To Recieve It( good works)

You are being untruthful here. We have argued this issue with italo, not only me but with others as well for long.

It is very clear that italo believes justification is by works.His posts reflects that.

vest:


I Tink U Misunderstod Italo
From What He Has Being Saying I Can Summarize It As Thus:
We Dnt Earn Our Salvation Rather Its By God's Grace Alone An Inheritance(gal5:21) Freely Given To Any 1 Who Becoms A Child Of God(1jn3:1)so Long As They Remain Children Of God, U Can't Earn It By Any Tin Wther By Faith Or Any Tin Its By God Grace Alone Cus Of The Love He Has 4 Us But We Can Loss It From God(jame 1:17)
It Is Just Lyk A Free Gift Given To Us We Have To Co-operate With God that is Bliv Dis Gift Exist( Have Faith) And Stretch Out Our Hands To Recieve It( good works)

The bold is not true.No, a child of God can never lose heaven and end up in hell. He may lose earthly benefits of knowing and living the truth, but his name will stay in the book of life. God predestinated His elect to adoption as sons through the purchase price of Jesus Christ's death (Gal 4:4-6; Eph 1:3-6).

vest:
the problem here is when you say our works are nt necessary(good Or Bad) that only what we Have To do is simply blive.
even demons blive christ is lord and cal him lord

it is because of christ grace that our faith can even save us if nt for his grace our faith is completly useless so is our good work.

once again we ar saved by God's Grace Alone Through Our Faith In Christ Working Through Love Nd Charity In Christ Inspired By The Holy Spirit

Bro, leave what demons believe or do not believe. Salvation is like a woman giving birth to a child, after the child comes out, it cannot be put back into the mother. We are indeed saved by grace plus nothing else. If we want to weigh works, who is qualified to weigh it? by what standard do we weigh our works?

Being saved is the first hurdle a believer needs to scale to come in through the door. Once you are in, you are in. Jesus paid the price to buy us from the slave market once, a price must be paid to christ in the same measure before we can be free to have another master.

Being a Christian does not mean we are perfect or we are transformed. Romans 12 puts it this way-

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Which means if you do not renew your mind By God's word, you cannot think or act like God will have you think even as a Christian. In fact, you will be more like the same person before you believed the gospel. If you gossip before you converted, you will still be a gossip after conversion if you don't sleep, eat and drink God's word.

Further down in the same chapter, Apostle Paul explained how we should live and conduct ourselves as christians. But, it is impossible to live that way if our mind isn't renewed.

We are not talking about good character here, some unsaved Hindu worshipper or a Muslim (without the knowledge of this God) can have a better character than a Christian. That does not make the Christian any less a Christian, it only means such Christian have not renewed their mind.

shdemidemi:


What part of the bible did you construct this from, I can't seem to find where faith and works are requisite to salvation. All I see is believe and you shall be saved, through justification,propitiation, election, ultimately by God's mercy.

it's called reading the Bible as a cohesive whole. NOT CHERRY PICKING but accepting everything it says. This debate is actually quite silly. And as far as I can see the "FAITH ONLY" proponents are just looking for an excuse to continue in their sinful lifestyle. Like the COZA pastor, you want to exist in a new level of grace. Jesus has one answer for such:
"Get away from me, you WORKERS of iniquity!"

Anyone who wants to read the Bible as a cohesive whole will come to a simple conclusion: You definitely need FAITH in Jesus Christ to come into a relationship with God. But you need works of holiness and righteousness to REMAIN in that relationship.

Good works alone cannot save. BUT FAITH, along with works of iniquity will certainly not save either.

honeychild:


it's called reading the Bible as a cohesive whole. NOT CHERRY PICKING but accepting everything it says. This debate is actually quite silly. And as far as I can see the "FAITH ONLY" proponents are just looking for an excuse to continue in their sinful lifestyle. Like the COZA pastor, you want to exist in a new level of grace. Jesus has one answer for such:
"Get away from me, you WORKERS of iniquity!"

Anyone who wants to read the Bible as a cohesive whole will come to a simple conclusion: You needo FAITH in Jesus Christ to come into a relationship with God. But you need works of holiness and righteousness to REMAIN in that relationship.

Good works alone cannot save. BUT FAITH, along with works of iniquity will certainly not save either.

That is where the mistake or the error is. We do not like free gifts as men, we like it the hard way. How does the gospel of the grace of God encourage licentiousness! It does not, it humbles man and put man in a position where he can look at God as a God of mercy.

All God is saying through grace is that you are not under any yoke to obey, but He wants you to obey out of your own volition. He will not save anyone because they are good, come to think of it- no one is good.

The only man(Job) that claimed to be good and upright spoke like a fool when his defences were broken down by God. The same God showed mercy to jacob even before he was born and hated Esau, two boys from the same womb. If we were to judge by works, Esau should be God's favourite but God chose that deceiver called Jacob by grace.

The prodigal son, how the father should have made him a servant when he arrived. But, no. He was celebrated by the father and the supposed good boy was not part of the feast when the time came cos he was offended. Works v grace.


By works the children of Israel could not get into the promise land but by faith the ones below maturity seized that land.

Sis, no man is perfect. We are all a WORK-IN-PROGRESS.

shdemidemi:


That is where the mistake or the error is. We do not like free gifts as men, we like it the hard way. How does the gospel of the grace of God encourage licentiousness!.

Really? How did the COZA pastor put it? Is it not a "new level of Grace?"

Or how does Goshen360 explain it? Fornication is no sin as long as you are committed to each other and will eventually marry?

Can a good tree produce bad fruit? What fruit is your gospel producing?

honeychild:


Really? How did the COZA pastor put it? Is it not a "new level of Grace?"

Or how does Goshen360 explain it? Fornication is no sin as long as you are committed to each other and will eventually marry?

Can a good tree produce bad fruit? What fruit is your gospel producing?

Well, The word of God stands far above any experience man can gather. I will not judge God's word based on how you choose to live your life. We do not stop going in a car or a plane simply because we heard another one had accident. Whoever the coza pastor is, or whatever he said will not change God's word.

God rested His power on this message of grace like none other.

Romans 1:16King James Version (KJV)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel is the power of God, nothing else can do it but the gospel. If it were not for the free gift of salvation, do you suppose you can stand before God to prove yourself as righteous before Him?