elampiro:
Ubenedictus, what do you have to say about Pope Francis asking a divorced woman to be receiving communion against the law of the church?

False mercy in granting Communion (without valid annulment) to Catholic couples who are divorced and civilly remarried, even though they are in the state of adultery

Bible Verse: “Whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” Matthew 19:9

do you have a record of the conversation?


if you don't then I suggest u exercise prudence in your condemnations

elampiro:


You are a joke here.

The Francis and Kasper are the ones promoting schism. I guess you have not being listening to them.

actually I think you need to go and read who a schismatic is, check canon law and like o said before you need to see your parish priest and until you do so abstain from Communion

Ubenedictus:
actually I think you need to go and read who a schismatic is, check canon law and like o said before you need to see your parish priest and until you do so abstain from Communion

Canon law doesn't say we should not criticize the Pope. Stop trying to threaten me, it will lead nowhere. I am happy working for Jesus by defending the tradition of the church.

...............

Some Cardinals are now saying Pope Francis silence is harming the church. Some of them have said he engineers the manipulations. Stay there and defend falsity.

No wonder Bergoglio was disobedient to Benedict.
..............

* I think you need to read what Priests have been writing about Pope Francis since Monday. Your blind obedience needs to be checked man.

Ubenedictus:
do you have a record of the conversation?


if you don't then I suggest u exercise prudence in your condemnations

Why do you defend the Pope when he and the vatican have not denied the conversation with the woman?

Hope you are following the this Synod? The other time you were blindly defending the document released on Monday which said homosexuals have gifts to render/offer to the church and that they are welcome. Majority of the cardinals have condemned that document.

Can anyone take you serious when you defend anything blindly as far as it's from the Vatican? Pope Francis clearly want changes and his liberal cardinals he planted to force this aren't hiding their intentions and who they are working for. Now they said doctrines can be changed. Funny!

elampiro:


Why do you defend the Pope when he and the vatican have not denied the conversation with the woman?

i hope you are aware that the vatican cannot affirm or deny what was or wasn't said in a private discussion.

I repeat, if you don't have a tape of the discussion then you are imprudent in your jugdement

Hope you are following the this Synod? The other time you were blindly defending the document released on Monday which said homosexuals have gifts to render/offer to the church and that they are welcome. Majority of the cardinals have condemned that document.

i didn't "blindly" accept anything. Every human being in this world have gift and talent that they can offer, whether or not they are homosexuals, if you do not know that then i may associate you with bigotry. Acceptance of gay people with sensitivity and without unjust discrimination is part and parcel of the catholic faith and clearly appears in the catechism, i hope you are not rejecting catholic teachings too?

Can anyone take you serious when you defend anything blindly as far as it's from the Vatican? Pope Francis clearly want changes and his liberal cardinals he planted to force this aren't hiding their intentions and who they are working for. Now they said doctrines can be changed. Funny!

you clearly do not know me, it is silly you think i am jumping blindly becos i can accuse you of the same thing. You are like a "maria's puppet". Even though Jesus has clearly told you that the church will not fall into error, you still prefer to believe in maria instead od Jesus.

elampiro:


Canon law doesn't say we should not criticize the Pope. Stop trying to threaten me, it will lead nowhere. I am happy working for Jesus by defending the tradition of the church.

so canon law encourages you to call the pope a false prophet?

Are you aware that you just claimed that the pope is a heretic and is excommunicated? That mean you should recieve in any mass where the eucharistic prayer mentions "francis our pope".

...............

Some Cardinals are now saying Pope Francis silence is harming the church. Some of them have said he engineers the manipulations. Stay there and defend falsity.

No wonder Bergoglio was disobedient to Benedict.
..............

are you aware what happen in vat 2, the popes also kept quite and allow the council debate the issues, this is no different, that the pope is silient during a debate doesn't make him a heretic, if it did then john 23 and paul 6 will be called heretics too. Secondly those writter simply sampled their oppinion, none of them said the pope is a heretic, a false prophet and is ecommunicated.

Lastly pope francis is the supreme pastor of the church, he isn't answerable to pope emeritus. That said, where did you hear that he was disobedient?

* I think you need to read what Priests have been writing about Pope Francis since Monday. Your blind obedience needs to be checked man.

i have read them all and none of them claimed the pope is a heretic.

Ubenedictus:
so canon law encourages you to call the pope a false prophet?

Are you aware that you just claimed that the pope is a heretic and is excommunicated? That mean you should recieve in any mass where the eucharistic prayer mentions "francis our pope".

are you aware what happen in vat 2, the popes also kept quite and allow the council debate the issues, this is no different, that the pope is silient during a debate doesn't make him a heretic, if it did then john 23 and paul 6 will be called heretics too. Secondly those writter simply sampled their oppinion, none of them said the pope is a heretic, a false prophet and is ecommunicated.

Lastly pope francis is the supreme pastor of the church, he isn't answerable to pope emeritus. That said, where did you hear that he was disobedient?



i have read them all and none of them claimed the pope is a heretic.

* I want to believe now you have accepted we can criticize the Pope. May be you are forced to accept that because you have seen Cardinals, Bishops and Priests criticizing him now.

So next time just leave me alone when I am critical of the Pope.

* In Vatican II, were they proposing and debating changing doctrines?

* Your logic about 'welcoming gays and their gifts' is flawed by the very reason that Cardinals rejected the idea. If it weren't wrong the Cardinals wouldn't kick against it. Remember, Cardinal Burke is the custodian of Canon Laws for the church, and you cannot know better. Burke said the Pope is not allowed to change doctrines, that it's no possible.

Ubenedictus:
i hope you are aware that the vatican cannot affirm or deny what was or wasn't said in a private discussion.

I repeat, if you don't have a tape of the discussion then you are imprudent in your jugdement

So the woman lied to the whole world against the Pope? CNN, Yahoo news, etc carried same story. And the divorced woman has been receiving Communion on the order of the Pope. The Pope and Vatican refused to stop her or clarify things or the Pope outrightly coming to affirm the faith.

Ubenedictus:

i didn't "blindly" accept anything. Every human being in this world have gift and talent that they can offer, whether or not they are homosexuals, if you do not know that then i may associate you with bigotry. Acceptance of gay people with sensitivity and without unjust discrimination is part and parcel of the catholic faith and clearly appears in the catechism, i hope you are not rejecting catholic teachings too?

Simple question: Why did the Cardinals kick against it? Mr. CCC and Canon Law, you know not a percentage of the Cardinals who fought with everything against it last week.

Ubenedictus:

you clearly do not know me, it is silly you think i am jumping blindly becos i can accuse you of the same thing. You are like a "maria's puppet". Even though Jesus has clearly told you that the church will not fall into error, you still prefer to believe in maria instead od Jesus.

The church will not fall into error doesn't mean you cannot have a bad Pope or a heretic Pope. Even the Popes have said it is very possible to have a heretic Pope. When you have a heretic Pope, he and his followers become the Schismatic church while those who hold on to scripture and tradition become the true church until a genuine Pope comes on board.

* Jesus through Maria Divine Mercy has told us the truth and the messages are being fulfilled already.

Even CCC can be prophetic:

CCC 675, Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
....................
cf 576:2 Thess 2:4-12


2 Thessalonians 2:4-12

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.




* Fr, Gobi's prophecies and Maria Divine Mercy said this same thing. The False Prophet and The Antichrist will cause the abomination of desolation. They will both sit in God's house. They will rule from the Church.

* Mathew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand.

elampiro:
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12[b]They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.[/b]

May be this is what is happening now. Why the church wants to change it's teachings about homosexuality, cohabitation and divorce beats my imagination. Thank God for the Cardinals who defended the gospel. Why would the church even think of changing her teachings by calling a Synod? It's unimaginable to think this is happening.

Catholic Bishop: ‘Pope Francis is Fond of Creating a Mess. Mission Accomplished.’

October 22, 2014

(CNSNews.com) – Thomas J. Tobin, the Catholic bishop for the Diocese of Providence, R.I., commented on the recent Synod of Bishops on the Family held at the Vatican as “being rather Protestant” in having bishops vote on “doctrinal applications,” and added that in terms of Pope Francis’s fondness for a “creating a mess,” you can say, “mission accomplished.”

“Pope Francis is fond of ‘creating a mess.’ Mission accomplished,” said Bishop Tobin in his Oct. 21 blog post at the Diocese of Providence website.

Pope Francis has sometimes said he wants to create “a mess” in the Church, meaning he wants to stir things up, and challenge people to do things they may not have considered.

During the World Youth Day in Rio de Janerio in July 2013, Pope Francis said, “What is it that I expect as a consequence of World Youth Day? I want a mess. We knew that in Rio there would be great disorder, but I want trouble in the dioceses! … I want to see the Church get closer to the people. I want to get rid of clericalism, the mundane, this closing ourselves off within ourselves, in our parishes, schools or structures. Because these need to get out!”

Commenting further on the Synod, Bishop Tobin said, “The concept of having a representative body of the Church voting on doctrinal applications and pastoral solutions strikes me as being rather Protestant.”  At the close of the Synod, the bishops voted on all 62 paragraphs in the final document, the Relatio Synodi.

The Synod of bishops will meet again in one year to review the document, make more changes, and then Pope Francis will review that material and write a public letter on the family and marriage issues examined.

As for more of his “Random Thoughts about the Synod on the Family,” Bishop Tobin said:

-- “Have we learned that it’s probably not a good idea to publish half-baked minutes of candid discussions about sensitive topics, especially when we know that the secular media will hijack the preliminary discussions for their own agendas?

-- “Wherever he serves, Cardinal Burke will be a principled, articulate and fearless spokesman for the teachings of the Church.”

--  “Relax. God’s still in charge.”

Pope Francis removed Cardinal Raymond Burke, 66, from his position as head of the highest court at the Vatican, the Apostolic Signatura, and reassigned him to be the Patron of the Knights of Malta, a largely ceremonial post and viewed as a demotion by Vatican observers.

Cardinal Burke, an American, is a top expert on Canon Law, the law of the Catholic Church, and has been a staunch defender of the Church’s teaching, particularly on moral issues. He has explained in detail that the Church does not have the authority to change its teaching on such hot button topics as abortion, homosexuality, contraception, marriage and divorce.

The Catholic diocese of Providence, R.I. was established in 1872. There are about 675,000 Catholics in the diocese and there are 143 parishes.
http://m.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/catholic-bishop-pope-francis-fond-creating-mess-mission-accomplished

Archbishop Chaput blasts Vatican debate on family, says 'confusion is of the devil'

Oct. 21, 2014 

New York -- ⁠ Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput says he was "very disturbed" by the debate over church teachings on gays and remarried Catholics at this month's Vatican summit, saying it sent a confusing message, and "confusion is of the devil."

In a lecture delivered Monday evening in Manhattan, Chaput also suggested that in the wake of the rapid series of court decisions legalizing same-sex marriage in more than 30 states, Catholic priests might consider opting out of certifying civil marriages as a sign of "principled resistance."

Chaput is expected to host Pope Francis in Philadelphia in September 2015 for a global World Meeting of Families, and his criticisms tracked complaints by other conservatives who were upset with Francis for encouraging a freewheeling discussion among the 190 cardinals and bishops at the Vatican's two-week Synod of Bishops on the family.

The 70-year-old archbishop, who was not part of the Rome summit, made his remarks in response to a question after a lecture event sponsored by the conservative journal First Things.

"I was very disturbed by what happened" at the synod, Chaput said. "I think confusion is of the devil, and I think the public image that came across was one of confusion."

Francis convened the synod as part of a two-year discussion on the Catholic church's response to rapid changes in modern family dynamics. Media attention focused on proposals that would push the church to be more welcoming to gay Catholics, and to cohabiting couples and the divorced and remarried, who are currently barred from receiving Communion.

An interim report on the closed-door discussions included calls for the church to reject an all-or-nothing approach to families in "irregular" situations, such as those who are divorced or living together without being married.

The midpoint report also said there were "positive elements" in those relationships, as well as in the love between gay couples, and it said gay Catholics have "gifts and qualities" to offer the church and should be welcomed.

Such language, even if not final or official, was unprecedented for church leaders, and it prompted a media tsunami. It also upset conservative churchmen at the synod, and they spent the second week engaged in a concerted effort to water down that language for the final report.

They largely succeeded, though Francis said the church's approach to gays and lesbians, and to divorced and remarried Catholics, should continue to be debated.

In his remarks Monday, Chaput said the (amended) final synod report was an improvement. But he was still concerned that it did not go far enough in clearing up the confusion and clearly restating church teachings on marriage and homosexuality.

"None of us are welcomed on our own terms in the church. We are welcomed on Jesus' terms," he said. "That's what it means to be a Christian. You submit yourself to Jesus and his teaching. You don't recreate your own body of spirituality."
..........
Chaput also raised eyebrows when he urged the nation's Catholic bishops to consider stopping the signing of civil marriage licenses for all couples in response to what he called the "new marriage regime" of same-sex civil marriage. Pennsylvania, along with more than 30 other states, now allows same-sex marriage.

By long-standing U.S. practice, a Catholic priest, like any licensed clergy, acts as an agent of the state when signing a couple's marriage certificate.

"It's hard to see how a priest or bishop could, in good conscience, sign a marriage certificate that merely identifies 'Spouse A' and 'Spouse B,' " Chaput said in his prepared remarks.

"Refusing to conduct civil marriages now, as a matter of principled resistance, has vastly more witness value than being kicked out of the marriage business later by the government, which is a likely bet," he said.

Chaput said he wasn't necessarily endorsing that move yet, but "in the spirit of candor encouraged by Pope Francis," he said the American bishops should "discuss and consider it as a real course of action."

The idea of separating civil and sacramental marriage services has been floated by religious conservatives and some liberals, who saw denying civil marriage to same-sex couples as an injustice. But Chaput appears to be the most high-profile Catholic leader to raise the issue.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops meets for the fall meeting next month in Baltimore, and it was unclear whether Chaput will bring it up then or whether the idea -- which is a major break from tradition -- would garner any support if he did.

Chaput's lecture, titled "Strangers in a Strange Land," focused on the theme that traditional believers are experiencing an internal exile akin to that of the ancient Israelites in Babylon.

Chaput said that the U.S. Supreme Court decision earlier this month not to review state appeals against gay marriage was a "tipping point" that confirmed that traditional believers are now a minority in society and on the defensive. He blasted gay activists for their "dishonesty" and "hatred" of gay marriage foes and said the portrayals of traditional believers as homophobic is "dishonest and evil."

"We also need to thank God for the gift of this present, difficult moment," Chaput said. "Because conflict always does two things: It purifies the church, and it clarifies the character of the enemies who hate her."
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/archbishop-chaput-blasts-vatican-debate-family-says-confusion-devil

Bishops revolt against Synod manipulation: Only 3 in 10 support Kasper proposal, says Cardinal Pell

Fri Oct 17, 2014
Cardinal George Pell, a leading voice for orthodoxy in the ongoing Synod of Bishops on the family in Rome, has said that  small group of “radicals” has failed in their attempt to push the Synod to accept homosexuality, cohabitation, and other changes of Catholic moral teaching.

Cardinal Pell said, “We’re not giving in to the secular agenda. We’re not collapsing in a heap. We’ve got no intention of following those radical elements in all the Christian churches including some of the Catholic Churches in one or two countries and going out of business.”

“If people are heading in the wrong direction, it’s no virtue for the Church to say that’s good. A lot of people that are outside and don’t accept our views will welcome it,” he said. “But certainly not the people in the pews, the good people.”

Today’s news in the Italian press is full of the story of the general revolt of the Synod bishops against what they argue are the attempts made by the Synod’s own administration to control the message and promote the views of this small “radical” cadre.

In his interview with Catholic News Service, Cardinal Pell, a member of Pope Francis’ inner council and the prefect of the newly formed Secretariat of the Economy, all but identified a cabal working to control the Synod.

Cardinal Pell said the issue of giving Communion to divorced and remarried couples is supported by “very few, certainly not the majority of the synod fathers.” But he added that “it’s only at the tip of the iceberg. It’s a stalking horse. They want wider changes: recognition of civil unions, recognition of homosexual unions.”

“The Church cannot go in that direction,” because “it would be a capitulation from the beauties and strengths of the Catholic tradition.”

Despite the attempts by the Synod’s Secretary General, Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri, to restrict the message of the bishops' working groups this week to summaries, written by himself, the bishops are reported to have risen up as a body and demanded that a full report of their deliberations be released to the public. After a series of speeches against Baldisseri’s proposal, an announcement by Father Federico Lombardi that the bishops’ full documents were to be published was met with a standing ovation while Pope Francis is said to have remained silent and impassive.

“The Synod fathers decided unanimously this morning to publish the summaries, the ‘relationes’ from the different working groups,” Cardinal Pell said, "because we wanted the Catholic people to know actually what was going on in talking about marriage and the family. And by and large, I think people will be immensely reassured.”

The story of the bishops’ revolt is the talk of Rome, with a report by Matteo Matzuzzi in the Italian newspaper Il Foglio, saying that the offer of yet another summary of their discussions was the last straw for the bishops. Cardinal Pell spoke first, but was followed by a long line of others, including the Archbishop of Brussels, Andre-Joseph Léonard; Cardinal Wilfrid Napier of Durban, South Africa; and the Cardinal Secretary of State, Pietro Parolin.

Cardinal Christoph Schönborn told the press, “The decision to render public the relationes of the circuli was taken by large majority.” Il Foglio noted that the texts “are clear, and go in an opposite direction as the one upheld by Cardinal Walter Kasper.”

Contrary to Cardinal Kasper’s persistent claims that a majority approve his plans, Cardinal Pell told Catholic News Service that only three out of ten of the Synod working groups have been supportive of Cardinal Kasper’s proposal.

The first document from the Synod to be published, called the “Relatio,” issued on Monday, suggested, among other troubling passages, that the bishops wanted the Church to learn to “value and accept” the homosexual “orientation.” Cardinal Pell called this document “tendentious,” and “skewed.”

“It didn’t represent accurately the feelings of the Synod fathers, because in the immediate reaction to it…three quarters of those who spoke had some problems with the document,” the cardinal said.

Pell criticized the Relatio again, saying, “A major absence was scriptural teaching. A major absence was the treatment of the Church tradition. It was as though there was an idealized vision of every imperfect [marital] situation.”

“One father said to me about the earlier document, that he wouldn’t want his young adult children to read it because they’d be confused. And that was said in some of the working groups,” the cardinal added.

“Christ’s teaching on marriage,” he said, “is not put there as a burden, it works in the long run. It’s there to protect us. And the secret for all Catholic vitality is fidelity to the teachings of Christ and to the tradition of the Church.”

He said that Pope Francis emphasis on these teachings being “lived out in mercy, and love,” have been “a wonderful emphasis.”

“Our task now is to ask people to pause, to pray, to catch their breath. To realize there’s going to be no abandonment of Catholic doctrine and to work to diminish the divisions and to prevent any radicalization of the factions or points of view,” Cardinal Pell said.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bishops-revolt-against-synod-manipulation-only-3-in-ten-support-kasper-prop

Conservative Cardinal Who Clashed With Pope Francis Confirms He Has Been Ousted

The head of the Catholic Church’s highest court speaks to BuzzFeed News from the Vatican.

A top cardinal told BuzzFeed News on Friday that the worldwide meeting of church leaders coming to a close in Rome seemed to have been designed to "weaken the church's teaching and practice" with the apparent blessing of Pope Francis.

Cardinal Raymond Burke, an American who heads the Vatican's highest court of canon law, made the remarks in a phone interview from the Vatican, where a two-week Extraordinary Synod on the Family will conclude this weekend. An interim report of the discussions released on Monday, called the Relatio, produced a widespread backlash among conservative bishops who said it suggested a radical change to the church's teaching on questions like divorce and homosexuality, and Burke has been among the most publicly critical of the bishops picked by Pope Francis to lead the discussion

If Pope Francis had selected certain cardinals to steer the meeting to advance his personal views on matters like divorce and the treatment of LGBT people, Burke said, he would not be observing his mandate as the leader of the Catholic Church.

"According to my understanding of the church's teaching and discipline, no, it wouldn't be correct," Burke said, saying the pope had "done a lot of harm" by not stating "openly what his position is." Burke said the Pope had given the impression that he endorses some of the most controversial parts of the Relatio, especially on questions of divorce, because of a German cardinal who gave an important speech suggesting a path to allowing people who had divorced and remarried to receive communion, Cardinal Walter Kasper, to open the synod's discussion.

"The pope, more than anyone else as the pastor of the universal church, is bound to serve the truth," Burke said. "The pope is not free to change the church's teachings with regard to the immorality of homosexual acts or the insolubility of marriage or any other doctrine of the faith."

Burke has publicly clashed with the pope since Francis took office in 2013, and he has come to represent the sidelining of culture warriors elevated by Joseph Ratzinger as Pope Benedict and as the top doctrinal official under Pope John Paul II. Burke, who caused controversy while bishop of St. Louis by saying Catholics who voted for politicians supportive of abortion rights should not receive communion, went on Catholic television in 2013 to rebut remarks Pope Francis made to an interviewer that the church had become "obsessed" with abortion and sexuality to the exclusion of other issues, saying, "We can never talk enough about that as long as in our society innocent and defenseless human life is being attacked in the most savage way," Burke said. While Francis famously responded to a question about homosexuality in 2013 by asking, "Who am I to judge?" Burke described homosexual "acts" as "alwa

In the interview with BuzzFeed News, Burke confirmed publicly for the first time the rumors that he had been told Francis intended to demote him from the church's chief guardian of canon law to a minor post as patron to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta.

"I very much have enjoyed and have been happy to give this service, so it is a disappointment to leave it," Burke said, explaining that he hadn't yet received a formal notice of transfer. "On the other hand, in the church as priests, we always have to be ready to accept whatever assignment we're given. And so I trust, by accepting this assignment, I trust that God will bless me, and that's what's in the end most important."
http://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/conservative-cardinal-who-clashed-with-pope-francis-confirms?s=mobile

African Cardinal: Pressure Groups Lobbying to Change Church Teaching
Cardinal Sarah said media reports about homosexual unions are ‘an attempt to push the Church’ to change its doctrine.


by CNA/EWTN NEWS 10/17/2014

Cardinal Robert Sarah, president of the Pontifical Council Cor Unum.
– Sabrina Fusco/CNA
VATICAN CITY — Inaccurate media reports about Church teaching on homosexuality published after the Extraordinary Synod on the Family’s midterm relatio was released are an attempt to pressure the Church to change its perennial teaching, a cardinal who is also a synod father has said.
Cardinal Robert Sarah, president of the Pontifical Council Cor Unum, emphasized to CNA Oct. 16 that “what has been published by the media about homosexual unions is an attempt to push the Church [to change] her doctrine.”
“The Church has never judged homosexual persons, but homosexual behavior and homosexual unions are grave deviations of sexuality,” said the cardinal, who is from the west African nation of Guinea.
Among the criticisms of the synod’s midterm relatio was the absence of some important statements, a point raised especially by some of the bishops from Africa.
Cardinal Sarah added, however, that “some very important topics are reported in the relatio,” such as “the Church’s refusal to promote policies linked to gender [theory] in exchange for financial aid.”
“This has been explicitly said in Cardinal Erdo’s relatio, and it is a relevant issue for developing countries as well as for the western countries,” the cardinal stressed.
Cardinal Sarah denounced the “government and some international organizations attempting to suppress the notion of the natural family, based on the man-woman relation; and the Church cannot be silent.”
The relatio stated that it is not “acceptable that the pastor’s outlook be pressured or that international bodies make financial aid dependent on the introduction of regulations based on gender ideology.”

‘Reference to Christ Is Needed’
The lack of any Gospel references about the family has been highlighted with concern by all the small groups that discussed the midterm relatio during this week.
Cardinal Sarah said, “there is no Christian family without a glance to Jesus, who Incarnated in a family with a father and a mother.”
This is the reason why, he added, “the reference to Christ is needed, in order to avoid that the Christian vision is reduced to an ideology, and that we are obliged to take stances in contrast with the Magisterium, the history of the Church, and, above all, with the truth of the Gospel.”
The small groups also have highlighted the need to rewrite the section “Providing for homosexual persons.”
The second English small group, moderated by Cardinal Wilfrid Napier of Durban, stressed that “the Church must continue to promote the revealed nature of marriage as always between one man and one woman united in lifelong, life-giving, and faithful communion.”
Cardinal Sarah reiterated this, and explained why the Church cannot endorse same-sex unions.
“Based on the Sacred Scriptures, the Tradition of the Church has always stated that ‘the acts of homosexuality are intrinsically disordered, since they are against the natural law, and preclude the gift of life. They cannot be approved, in any case,’” Cardinal Sarah maintained, quoting the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The cardinal then recalled Pope St. John Paul II, when he questioned whether the push for homosexual unions is “part of a new ideology of evil.”
Cardinal Sarah described the relatio as “a working document which partially mirrors the discussion.”
The public release of the working document “aroused general surprise, since the document had to be finished, polished, and [would] lead to the final draft of a text that must be approved by the synod fathers.”
“Does anyone wants to destabilize the Church and undermine its teaching?” Cardinal Sarah asked.
“Let us pray for those pastors who leave the Lord’s sheep to the wolves of decadent and secularized society, far from God and nature,” he concluded. “Sexuality is not a cultural fact, but a natural fact.”
http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/african-cardinal-pressure-groups-lobbying-to-change-church-teaching/

elampiro:
Archbishop Chaput blasts Vatican debate on family, says 'confusion is of the devil'

Oct. 21, 2014 

New York -- ⁠ Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput says he was "very disturbed" by the debate over church teachings on gays and remarried Catholics at this month's Vatican summit, saying it sent a confusing message, and "confusion is of the devil."

In a lecture delivered Monday evening in Manhattan, Chaput also suggested that in the wake of the rapid series of court decisions legalizing same-sex marriage in more than 30 states, Catholic priests might consider opting out of certifying civil marriages as a sign of "principled resistance."

Chaput is expected to host Pope Francis in Philadelphia in September 2015 for a global World Meeting of Families, and his criticisms tracked complaints by other conservatives who were upset with Francis for encouraging a freewheeling discussion among the 190 cardinals and bishops at the Vatican's two-week Synod of Bishops on the family.

The 70-year-old archbishop, who was not part of the Rome summit, made his remarks in response to a question after a lecture event sponsored by the conservative journal First Things.

"I was very disturbed by what happened" at the synod, Chaput said. "I think confusion is of the devil, and I think the public image that came across was one of confusion."

Francis convened the synod as part of a two-year discussion on the Catholic church's response to rapid changes in modern family dynamics. Media attention focused on proposals that would push the church to be more welcoming to gay Catholics, and to cohabiting couples and the divorced and remarried, who are currently barred from receiving Communion.

An interim report on the closed-door discussions included calls for the church to reject an all-or-nothing approach to families in "irregular" situations, such as those who are divorced or living together without being married.

The midpoint report also said there were "positive elements" in those relationships, as well as in the love between gay couples, and it said gay Catholics have "gifts and qualities" to offer the church and should be welcomed.

Such language, even if not final or official, was unprecedented for church leaders, and it prompted a media tsunami. It also upset conservative churchmen at the synod, and they spent the second week engaged in a concerted effort to water down that language for the final report.

They largely succeeded, though Francis said the church's approach to gays and lesbians, and to divorced and remarried Catholics, should continue to be debated.

In his remarks Monday, Chaput said the (amended) final synod report was an improvement. But he was still concerned that it did not go far enough in clearing up the confusion and clearly restating church teachings on marriage and homosexuality.

"None of us are welcomed on our own terms in the church. We are welcomed on Jesus' terms," he said. "That's what it means to be a Christian. You submit yourself to Jesus and his teaching. You don't recreate your own body of spirituality."
..........
Chaput also raised eyebrows when he urged the nation's Catholic bishops to consider stopping the signing of civil marriage licenses for all couples in response to what he called the "new marriage regime" of same-sex civil marriage. Pennsylvania, along with more than 30 other states, now allows same-sex marriage.

By long-standing U.S. practice, a Catholic priest, like any licensed clergy, acts as an agent of the state when signing a couple's marriage certificate.

"It's hard to see how a priest or bishop could, in good conscience, sign a marriage certificate that merely identifies 'Spouse A' and 'Spouse B,' " Chaput said in his prepared remarks.

"Refusing to conduct civil marriages now, as a matter of principled resistance, has vastly more witness value than being kicked out of the marriage business later by the government, which is a likely bet," he said.

Chaput said he wasn't necessarily endorsing that move yet, but "in the spirit of candor encouraged by Pope Francis," he said the American bishops should "discuss and consider it as a real course of action."

The idea of separating civil and sacramental marriage services has been floated by religious conservatives and some liberals, who saw denying civil marriage to same-sex couples as an injustice. But Chaput appears to be the most high-profile Catholic leader to raise the issue.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops meets for the fall meeting next month in Baltimore, and it was unclear whether Chaput will bring it up then or whether the idea -- which is a major break from tradition -- would garner any support if he did.

Chaput's lecture, titled "Strangers in a Strange Land," focused on the theme that traditional believers are experiencing an internal exile akin to that of the ancient Israelites in Babylon.

Chaput said that the U.S. Supreme Court decision earlier this month not to review state appeals against gay marriage was a "tipping point" that confirmed that traditional believers are now a minority in society and on the defensive. He blasted gay activists for their "dishonesty" and "hatred" of gay marriage foes and said the portrayals of traditional believers as homophobic is "dishonest and evil."

"We also need to thank God for the gift of this present, difficult moment," Chaput said. "Because conflict always does two things: It purifies the church, and it clarifies the character of the enemies who hate her."
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/archbishop-chaput-blasts-vatican-debate-family-says-confusion-devil

Oh I think "the Devil" (if you believe there is one) has been running rampant through those gilded halls of d Vatican, for...well...ever. He'd certainly approve of covering up pedophelia, a crooked Vatican bank laundering money and the
hierarchy using Holy Communion as a weapon against people. Too much stomach-churning hypocrisy especially with so many gay seminarians, deacons, priests, Bishops and - oh yes - Cardinals there spouting this hateful, anti-gay BS.

Codename: Lavender mafia. It exists and has done for many years. No, they're most certainly not all gay and absolutely only a fraction of gay clergy are pedophiles.....it's "straight" clergy as well and people should stop equating the two.....it's just not the case.

Francis wants a kinder, gentler more welcoming Church but he'll be fought every step of the way.

At d end of d day,we need to remember that it is d same catholic church that forced Galileo to recant on scientific facts under threat of death that we're talking about!

It took the catholic church 500 yrs to agree that d earth revolves round the sun people,so no one is surprised here.

beryl04:




Oh I think "the Devil" (if you believe there is one) has been running rampant through those gilded halls of d Vatican, for...well...ever. He'd certainly approve of covering up pedophelia, a crooked Vatican bank laundering money and the
hierarchy using Holy Communion as a weapon against people. Too much stomach-churning hypocrisy especially with so many gay seminarians, deacons, priests, Bishops and - oh yes - Cardinals there spouting this hateful, anti-gay BS.

Codename: Lavender mafia. It exists and has done for many years. No, they're most certainly not all gay and absolutely only a fraction of gay clergy are pedophiles.....it's "straight" clergy as well and people should stop equating the two.....it's just not the case.

Francis wants a kinder, gentler more welcoming Church but he'll be fought every step of the way.

If you said all these evil already exist among some members of the church hierarchy, why do we have to increase the evil by approving gay? Mind you, the church did not approve of any of these evils you mentioned. So there are no group of people calling themselves pedophiles, looters, fornicators, and forcing the church to accept their sinful lifestyle. This is a part of the difference.

In any case, most of these atrocities were perpetuated by mostly priests promoting liberal views in order to rubbish the church and push their agenda.

We know their plans.

beryl04:
At d end of d day,we need to remember that it is d same catholic church that forced Galileo to recant on scientific facts under threat of death that we're talking about!

It took the catholic church 500 yrs to agree that d earth revolves round the sun people,so no one is surprised here.

How is this a moral issue or a doctrine?

The bible is clear on marriage.

elampiro:


How is this a moral issue or a doctrine?

The bible is clear on marriage.

At this juncture I'll tell u to shove ur moral rectitude !
The catholic church going by her history and antecedents does not posses the prerequisites for morality ,let alone d rights to set one.

The bible also teaches that slavery is right,how's that for a moral code?


What we see here is a battle of the mythological vs the reality....open society with equality for all or theocratic repression and control...now which is of the devil.the daiblo,the mefistolese

beryl04:



At this juncture I'll tell u to shove ur moral rectitude !
The catholic church going by her history and antecedents does not posses the prerequisites for morality ,let alone d rights to set one.

The bible also teaches that slavery is right,how's that for a moral code?


What we see here is a battle of the mythological vs the reality....open society with equality for all or theocratic repression and control...now which is of the devil.the daiblo,the mefistolese

The Catholic church has never taught me to enslave people. In all the catholic classes I have attended, catholics books I have read, the teachings, I have never be taught anything else but good, love of neighbor, social justice. Above all the call to holiness and sacrifice. The Catholic church have been a great light to the world. Built missionary schools, worked with the poor, sick ad oppressed, raised great leaders almost free of charge. We have great saints as Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, St Vincent De Paul, St Miximilian who offered to die in place of a prisoner who had a family to cater for, because he himself had nothing to lose by dying.

In a nutshell, the church has taught me only good. Good also involve telling people the truth of the gospel for the sake of the eternal destination of their souls. This is true charity. Anyone who tells people they have to adopt a sinful life and still be christians is uncharitable to the good of souls. God doesn't want us to choose, adopt and then live a sinful life. Christianity is a decision, Jesus told the adulterous woman to go sin no more. If by mistake or out of temptation a christian falls into a sin, he becomes sober and immediately be remorseful. You see regret. Then he seeks confession with sincere intention never to sin again. So, on can never fight for sinful course and remain a christian. One can not fight for the right of immorality like pedo.phile, homo, adultery, fornication, etc and still boast to be a christian. These are things if you fall into you have to be ashamed before God and man.


I think I have said enough. At the end everyone has a soul and a choice.

"Many are not trusting the Church any longer; people trust the first profane prophet who comes to talk to us from some NEWSPAPER or from some REVOLUTIONARY SOCIAL MOVEMENT so that we may run after him to ask him if he has the formula (the answer) to true life"---Pope Paul VI


Prophetic words...Elampiro take note.

^^
If you cannot listen to prophecies, listen to the good Cardinals. They are teaching you the true faith according to doctrines, tradition and canon law.

You have to reject lies and falsity.

Fact: This Synod has been what makes the people not to trust the church. The Synod proposed teachings contradicting Jesus' gospel.

Syncan:
"Many are not trusting the Church any longer; people trust the first profane prophet who comes to talk to us from some NEWSPAPER or from some REVOLUTIONARY SOCIAL MOVEMENT so that we may run after him to ask him if he has the formula (the answer) to true life"---Pope Paul VI


Prophetic words...Elampiro take note.

Link pls? It will be nice to read the entire story and the prophet being referred to.

elampiro:
^^
If you cannot listen to prophecies, listen to the good Cardinals. They are teaching you the true faith according to doctrines, tradition and canon law.

You have to reject lies and falsity.

I don't listen to "good" cardinals, for our Lord says no one is "good". Lk 18:19. I listen to the church for Christ has promised to be with her till the end of days-- Matt 28:20. And she is the pillar and foundation of truth---1Tim 3:15. Do not forget that it is through the church that the hidden wisdom of God is revealed, yeah, even "to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". Eph 3:10

elampiro:
Fact: This Synod has been what makes the people not to trust the church. The Synod proposed teachings contradicting Jesus' gospel.

Lie! Where did the synod propose this and what teaching are you talking about? You had already lost your faith before the synod, you and your MDM champion. Why do you now lie against the synod?

elampiro:


Link pls? It will be nice to read the entire story and the prophet being referred to.

Are you not the one talking about the "smoke of satan"? How come you don't know the source of that phrase. Both came from same place. However I will oblige you.

http://translate.google.com.ng/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/homilies/1972/documents/hf_p-vi_hom_19720629_it.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Non%2Bci%2Bsi%2Bfida%2Bpi%25C3%25B9%2Bdella%2BChiesa%253B%2Bci%2Bsi%2Bfida%2Bdel%2Bprimo%2Bprofeta%2Bprofano%2Bche%2Bviene%2Ba%2Bparlarci%2Bda%2Bqualche%2Bgiornale%2Bo%2Bda%2Bqualche%2Bmoto%2Bsociale%2Bper%2Brincorrerlo%2Be%2Bchiedere%2Ba%2Blui%2Bse%2Bha%2Bla%2Bformula%2Bdella%2Bvera%2Bvita%2522.%26lr%3Dlang_en%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D653%26tbs%3Dlr:lang_1en

Syncan, have you paid attention to Cardinal Kasper? The man Pope Francis has chosen to drive his agenda? Did you listen to his address to open the February Consitory in preparation for the Synod and he got applauded by Pope Francis? Did you listen to his pre-Synod interviews, particularly how Pope Francis backed his proposals for change in church teachings? Did you listen to his interviews during the last Synod and his remark about African bishops and the African church? He basically was telling African bishops and church they can 'go away' if they can't take their (Kasper and cohort) proposals. When he got heavily criticized, he denied giving the interview. Then the Zenit staff who interviewed him published the audio to the shame of Walter Kasper.

Have you dug to the past of this Cardinal Walter Kasper and his theology? This man is more of an atheist. If you haven't all these materials, I can publish them for your enlightenment.

No wonder your llocution told you some will be guided by hell in the Synod.

Syncan:


Lie! Where did the synod propose this and what teaching are you talking about? You had already lost your faith before the synod, you and your MDM champion. Why do you now lie against the synod?

....... And the Cardinals who have been trying to defend Pope Francis controversial interviews now confronting him after the Synod. It's the Synod. People lost trust in the church via the Synod- CNN, Yahoo, etc. Where we never saw MDM.

Listen to Bishops and Priests all around he world since the Synod.

Blame it on MDM.

Syncan:


I don't listen to "good" cardinals, for our Lord says no one is "good". Lk 18:19. I listen to the church for Christ has promised to be with her till the end of days-- Matt 28:20. And she is the pillar and foundation of truth---1Tim 3:15. Do not forget that it is through the church that the hidden wisdom of God is revealed, yeah, even "to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms". Eph 3:10

The choice is yours whether to listen to christian basic truth or falsity.

Syncan:


Are you not the one talking about the "smoke of satan"? How come you don't know the source of that phrase. Both came from same place. However I will oblige you.

http://translate.google.com.ng/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/homilies/1972/documents/hf_p-vi_hom_19720629_it.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Non%2Bci%2Bsi%2Bfida%2Bpi%25C3%25B9%2Bdella%2BChiesa%253B%2Bci%2Bsi%2Bfida%2Bdel%2Bprimo%2Bprofeta%2Bprofano%2Bche%2Bviene%2Ba%2Bparlarci%2Bda%2Bqualche%2Bgiornale%2Bo%2Bda%2Bqualche%2Bmoto%2Bsociale%2Bper%2Brincorrerlo%2Be%2Bchiedere%2Ba%2Blui%2Bse%2Bha%2Bla%2Bformula%2Bdella%2Bvera%2Bvita%2522.%26lr%3Dlang_en%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D653%26tbs%3Dlr:lang_1en

I can't open the link. May be I will try from other device.

* Is it about Akita? Akita is approved under the watchful eyes of Cardinal Ratziger whose office had the authority to guide the local bishop.