vooks:
Numbers and Miracles mean NOTHING for these reasons;
1. False religions can also boast of numbers and signs

2. MAJORITY of those turning to Christ are not drawn by the miraculous. I was not drawn by the miraculous

3. If numbers and signs vindicate a minister of the true gospel, then the converse is true; small numbers and NO signs are marks of a false gospel.

4. Signs and wonders do not necessarily turn people to Christ. Read Matthew 11:20-24

5. Paul was wearied by chronic sign seekers at the expense of the Word 1 Cor 1:22

6. The growth recorded in Acts was the ENTIRE church. Now it is sectarian, Oyaks vs Oyedepo vs Adefarsin.

Once again, why are numbers thrown at us? It was a noble thing for Bereans to examine if what Paul said was so. Now it is envying unmatched record.

WinsomeX:


Who has said anything about 10% * 11? It is nowhere on my post.

Apparently, since you had succeeded in twisting the percentage matter, I like vooks, resorted to using ordinary numbers and still arrived at the same answer.

If as a Maths Professional you will not admit an error you have so clearly made, how will admit to doctrinal errors?

Use the 100, 000 income you suggested to vooks and let's see your conclusion.

Gombs:


Simply admit wrong. 10%*11 is not equal to 110. Input 100, 000 into the formula I gave you and see magic. I never expected you to admit wrong, , it's your trademark. The above blue is totally crazy!

Fraction/percentage and the answer was in percentage? Dear Lord! 210, 000/1.2mill is 0.175 remember you put % outside the parenthesis, meaning your answer is 0.175%, which miraculously turned 17.5 still with the '%'

Vooks, I don't have strength, you are right, carry go!

Gombs:


Stop quoting me! If you haven't found my reply to your wrong thinking of Acts 15, then please watch from afar, and stop quoting me. Apology huh? For telling you how you conveniently exercised your 'freedom of speech" and trading your honesty for a morsel of amala?

mbaemeka:


Bro, I barely even had time to read this thread well or respond to my mentions but I saw the emboldened and it cracked me up. There was another ignoramus that said the "Pastors" collect more than the law-stipulated 22% and you guys had the nerves to question Gombs data interpretation skills?

First and foremost, your answer is correct no matter how you did wuru wuru to arrive at the answer (find out what wuru wuru signifies).

Secondly, the 22% by the law was it per annum or per month? If it was per annum then 17.5% is still less than it (word to the ignoramuses). And if the 22% is per month then it is still more than the 17.5%. Hope you see the flaw.

This was the wuru wuru --> and yea BTW Gombs was right. You cannot say 10% * 11 is 110.

Candour:


Actually bro, no mog, no matter how crooked can defend 22% as tithe for christians. it's not honesty keeping them from it; it's common sense and the knowledge that they'll be biting off more than they can chew if they dare.

imagine bringing Deut 14:22-29 and Deut 26:12 into the fray to demand 22%?

vooks:
Gombs,
[s]The same pride you are exhibiting in fault finding coupled with FAILURE to admit goofing is the kind of attitude cult leaders dream of and move heavens to cultivate in their sheeple. That your conscience does not prick you means it is DEAD to correction. No amount of truth can penetrate it. Sad

I said 10% * 11= 110% not 110.

[s]Let me help your puny brains overheat.
If you paid your full salary in Jan and tithed for the remaining 11 months, it is equivalent to tithing for twelve straight months plus throwing in 90% of a month's salary. How much are you paying per month?
1. The normal 10%
2. The one off antiretroviral January 90%

Now, spread the 90% across the 12 months and you get 7.5%. So per month you are giving the normal 10% plus the 'exceptional' 7.5%. Total is 17.5%

Go lick your wounds in private and come back refreshed and mannered [/s]

Gombs:


Vooks......... go and sleep o! As nothing was wrong with your initial math, and percentages, fine. I thought the first one was sensible? Now you've remixed it.
Thanks.

Tell the poster whonquoted me last to follow WinsomeX please. Good night. It's been a great day here.

vooks:
My broda,
When I receive my space gray iPhone 6+ 64Gb, I will mail you an antique KJV as a gift. Minimum 100 years young.

Now,I believe I was the first person to introduce that figure of 22% on this thread. There were two annual tithes per annum and a third one every third year. Dividing the third tithe by 3 you get 3.33. Add this to the first tithe 10% and the second 9% (10% of 90%) you get 22.3333% per annum in tithes. It never stopped at this, they still had other offerings as well. A modern pastor receiving 100% in Jan and 10% of gross pay every month of MANDATORY offerings receives 17.5% in total per annum. Like the Levites, it does not stop here. There be normal offerings, seeds and so forth. May be that was the point, I can only talk of the 17.5% as the minimum.

Now, about averages.
What is the average of this set of data; 10,10,10,10?
What about this, 10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10,10?

In both cases it is 10. This means somebody tithing faithfully for any number of months ends up giving a tithe of the total income over that period. For instance, if Gombs tithes Nov and Dec from his 100,000, his tithes for the two months total 20,000, 10,000 for each month. Total income over Nov and Dec is 200,000. So his average tithing is 20,000/200,000 or 10%. In other words, the average per month equals the average for the year as long as it is consistent. So when I say 17.5% per month or per annum, it means the same.

The modern tither still pays LESS than the Jew.

Tithing has some apparent benefits; consistency and discipline on the givers. May be God knew if Levites had no inheritance and there was no command to support them, they would starve and get distracted from service. The tithing Laws ensured they didn't.

But on the other hand, when I look at the death penalties such as on adultery and the fact that in Islamic nations, they actually appear to deter the vice, I wonder why this is not the NT way of life. So am not surprised that under one covenant God can COMMAND support for LEVITES and throw in promises and curses to enforce the same while in the other,there are no penalties whatsoever for not supporting ministers

mbaemeka:


I agree with everything you said above. Why I said the emboldened in the previous post cracked me up is that it contradicted what some other poster said and that poster was endorsing your post yet he didn't spot the contradiction which is: yes 17.5% whether per month or annum is right but it will be less than 22% whether per month or annum.

Wuru wuru meant that you shunted the process to arrive at your answer but now seeing that you wrote 110% and not 110 then you were also right.

Unfortunately, I support Arsenal FC so I am distracted by the champions league game I am currently watching.

cheers.

mbaemeka:


I agree with everything you said above. Why I said the emboldened in the previous post cracked me up is that it contradicted what some other poster said and that poster was endorsing your post yet he didn't spot the contradiction which is: yes 17.5% whether per month or annum is right but it will be less than 22% whether per month or annum.

Wuru wuru meant that you shunted the process to arrive at your answer but now seeing that you wrote 110% and not 110 then you were also right.

Unfortunately, I support Arsenal FC so I am distracted by the champions league game I am currently watching.

cheers.

BabaGnoni:



I know you didnt drive down to the IPPC CONFERENCE but still believe you are familiar with and/or understand the above Highway Code signs
- one is a prohibition/order sign the other is a warning sign

As far as I know, no one as in, not WinsomeX, Candour, Shdemidemi, trustman and the rest of the crew have given the first sign but rather it has been a case of waving or flagging the second sign (i.e. the Warning sign)

So now Gombs, should one encourage a Christian to WARN about tithing
If Yes, why discourage a Christian to WARN on tithing then?. Why STOPPING a Christian to give WARNING(s) on tithing?

Gombs:
You can warn a Christian to stop tithing iF AND ONLY IF you have a scripture condeming tithing in its entirety. Until then, you have no right or set of rights, jurisdiction either comically, morally, theologically or arbitrarily to try and manipulate, conjure, coerce and/or lie to anyone to STOP or WARN them about paying their tithes.

BabaGnoni:
^^^
I give up. Facepalm. SMH

Gombs:
Wise choice buddy! You cannot blockbthe sun with one finger. Go and sin no more, your sins are forgiven you.

mbaemeka:
This is even more Gibberisher than the previous post.

Let me pace myself a bit with you since you are not as quick-witted as I had overestimated you to be.

If I was to tell you instances of Tetraplegics and Palsy sufferers who got healed instantly by the anointing of God, you would have disbelieved them even if I provided videos for you. Secondly, your incredulity is not limited to the Pastor I would have referred you to: it encompasses even many others abroad and ahome (on earth and in heaven for e.g Kenneth Hagin). So it made absolutely no sense for me to honor your questions with the sort of reply you were craving for. Lastly, you made a fallacy of Generalizing Hastily by making it seem like 'ALL' Healing school ministers avoided patients with the conditions above when you have NEVER attended any of the healing schools to corroborate such a statement. The same way you asserted that Christopher Columbus helped prove Galileos discoveries right even when Columbus had died before Galileo was born. I am sure you realise you are a tad too whimsical in your responses and they have always come back to bite you where the sun doesn't shine.

Now, let it be that none of the WOF or WOF related ministers I know have healed anyone suffering from the 2 conditions you mentioned. Let it be that the testimonies they have were all stage-managed. You who believes in Yahweh that heals, can you provide any evidences to back that claim or is it just hot-air (again) ? I.e are you just throwing the I-believe-Yahweh-can-heal-those-things line, even when you don't really believe?

PS: I ignored all your nonsense about verbatim quotes and the likes. You were dishonest enough to refuse to admit your Eve-serpent-sex, Kenneth Hagin-Apostle, Tower of Babel was mythical goof (s) so I don't expect you to take the humble route and keep mum now. And you have the temerity to call someone incorrigible and wallowing in ignorance? Hahahahahahaha!

Image123:


Jay Jay Okocha! Yes, the man is in our midst. See him turning 360.

nlMediator:



Everything does not have to be “either or.” Large crowds are not the ultimate measure of truth nor are small crowds. Yet, each counts for something and can help us ascertain the truth by playing a confirmatory role. Rejecting large crowds because some false groups have large numbers is intellectually dishonest if you are not willing to accept the corollary (absurd, BTW) that some false groups also have small numbers and thus small churches are also false as a result.

Miracles alone do not draw people to God neither does teaching or preaching only. We can have both. In Acts 13:12, immediately after Paul caused Elymas the sorcerer to go blind, the Bible records that the proconsul got saved seeing what had been done and believing what had been preached.

Some people would rather let us rely on their interpretation of the Bible, laced with fancy statements and spiced up with entries from some Greek dictionary to determine what is true doctrine. But that’s not what the Bible says. Sometimes, the confirmation will have to come from physical evidence, including numbers and miracles. God could easily have confirmed the truth of Peter’s early preaching without adding thousands to the Church. But He chose to do so. We have no right to ignore such precedent. If people question whether God still heals, the proof is not simply by interpreting the Bible. It also includes evidence. As Jesus said, there is evidence that accompanies those that believe, including love, signs and wonders.

So, instead of arguing ad infinitum, we can go to God in prayer and ask Him to confirm His Word. That’s what I did recently when I had a challenge from the usual source about whether God still heals. Even though I can testify to the fact that God heals in our day, the challenge was strong. I asked God to confirm His position. The result was an extraordinary healing a few days later of a condition that 2 different doctors in separate places had said was incurable. This happened only a few months ago.

I guess I’m supposed to ignore all of that and spend countless hours listening to mumbo jumbo by some "scholar"?

BabaGnoni:







You obviously are not very familiar with the Highway Code signs
Warning sign is not a Stop sign and vice versa.
- Stop sign is an Order. Warning sign is what it says on the tin or label, a Warning (i.e. as in, be informed, be alert, be careful, be aware etcetera)

I had never CONDEMNED tithing but when opportune I've always intimated any that will listen of the higher law and warned of the unnecessity of tithing
- any act of choosing between to or not to is entirely up to the concerned after obtaining the information

Gombs, what I DETEST & CONDEMN is/are the teaching(s) that put fear into tithe-defaulter(s), tithe-abstainers, tithe-agnostics etcetera
What I dislike intensely and shrink from are people using "right or set of rights, jurisdiction either comically, morally, theologically or arbitrarily to try and manipulate, conjure, coerce and/or lie to anyone to paying their tithes"

No offense but you sounded like a baby in a pram crying when a toy was taken off him when you posted "You can warn a Christian to stop tithing iF AND ONLY IF you have a scripture condeming tithing in its entirety. Until then, you have no right or set of rights, jurisdiction either comically, morally, theologically or arbitrarily to try and manipulate, conjure, coerce and/or lie to anyone to STOP or WARN them about paying their tithes"

As for you saying "Wise choice buddy! You cannot block the sun with one finger. Go and sin no more, your sins are forgiven you."

Gombs, it wasn't a wise choice situation because I actually gave up on you and stopped hoping you'll see the light from the sun blocked with one finger
- I have repented of giving up on you, as everybody deserves another chance

Let's say like, the God of another chance(s) I too believe, we all deserve a second, third, fourth up to nth chance to get things right
Gombs, I believe in your ability to change and rise above tithe-ignorances and present or past tithe teaching mistakes

Gombs:


My man, good morning. Well I quite agree with most of your write ups, especially folks being threatened from the pulpit and sometimes forced to tithe. Notwithstanding, I also believe your warning and stop sign illustration are almost same thing.

A brother who's known and loved tithing maybe from experiences cannot be warned to stop, neither will want to stop. With further warning and stop signs, you only make yourself an entity trying to hack down his liberty to tithe.

Gombs:
My man, good morning. Well I quite agree with most of your write ups, especially folks being threatened from the pulpit and sometimes forced to tithe. Notwithstanding, I also believe your warning and stop sign illustration are almost same thing.

A brother who's known and loved tithing maybe from experiences cannot be warned to stop, neither will want to stop. With further warning and stop signs, you only make yourself an entity trying to hack down his liberty to tithe.

Bidam:
Good observation. The same way they accuse tithers of legalism is the same they legalistically argue against the tithe. I hope he sees it that way.

BabaGnoni:



I know you arent familiar with the Highway Code that much, repeat what you said in a driving licence test that "warning and stop sign illustration are almost same thing" is a guaranteed failure to obtain the driving licence

Dont where or how Gombs came about " warned to stop"
Who is warning to stop?
- there is a BIG difference between "warning to stop" and "warning of the unneccesity of tithing (i.e. warned to avoid falling into the trap of tithe legalism)"

Legalism is dangerous, hope Bidam sees it that way and that Christians be warned to avoid falling into the trap of tithe legalism

No one has stopped anyone from tithing except than offer warning(s) of the unneccesity of tithing
No one has put guns to anyone's head to stop them from tithing.
As yall support and advocate the right to tithe, same, yall let be the right of/for others to warn of the unneccesity of tithing

Bidam:
The truth is you can't make rules for me by warning me even if i am to eat meat offered to idols.
That is my point. Can you point to any post of mine where i warned a christian to tithe.
Antithers are always the folks opening threads all over this forum to attack peoples liberty to tithe.

BabaGnoni:

LOL
- typical of a tithe lobbyist, thinking about rules, mistaking need to know information for "rules"

Bidam:
The truth is you can't make rules for me by warning me even if i am to eat meat offered to idols. That is my point. Can you point to any post of mine where i warned a christian to tithe. Antithers are always the folks opening threads all over this forum to attack peoples liberty to tithe.

Gombs:


Exactly. There are tons of threads here completely calling for a stop to tithing, others were notable for insulting ministers and ministries. How bbg was able to conclude thu is very worrisome.

No one has stopped anyone from tithing except than offer warning(s) of the unneccesity of tithing

The latter part of the above seems to be the new stand of anti tithers... "warnings of the unneccesity of tithing? "... Really? Remember when you were castigting T. D jakes?

BabaGnoni:

LOL
- typical of a tithe lobbyist, thinking about rules, mistaking need to know information for "rules"

vooks:
You have sermons, books,devotionals on first fruits and tithing, ministers supposedly appealing to scriptures teaching you the NECESSITY tithing and the hellish consequences of not tithing. They teach these at Foundation schools am sure. Telling you God does not curse but men bring themselves under his curse......devourer,HIV...

You also have threads,teachings that tithing is not a requirement for Christians, that there are no consequences for not tithing any more than there are for not circumcising or keeping Feasts. They appeal to scriptures.

Why do you happily imagine that one is making rules and the other is not?

vooks:
You have sermons, books,devotionals on first fruits and tithing, ministers supposedly appealing to scriptures teaching you the NECESSITY tithing and the hellish consequences of not tithing. They teach these at Foundation schools am sure. Telling you God does not curse but men bring themselves under his curse......devourer,HIV...

You also have threads,teachings that tithing is not a requirement for Christians, that there are no consequences for not tithing any more than there are for not circumcising or keeping Feasts. They appeal to scriptures.

Why do you happily imagine that one is making rules and the other is not?

Gombs:


vooks,folks who tithe were taught how to and why, this is a far cry fry what anti tither do. they want tithing to stop being taught.

My broda,
when the HOW and WHY are interrogated, they are found to be unscriptural and quite dishonest.

My own Empress is a faithful tither. I do not tithe, haven't done it all of this year. before that, I been tithing for the longest ever since I learnt about the doctrine. All I did was to reexamine the doctrine. I can tell you that all along I had some reservations about the way Malachi was overused. Slight reservations. I had always believed that tithing was practiced since Pentecost. Then I discovered that it started 500 years after. Not unlike Christmas. The next question was WHY. Why would such a doctrine with such immense consequences be missing from the church for hundreds of years?

I began to see systematic misuses of tithing verses. Then I made up my mind. No more tithing. One buddy of mine flew to Norway and he called me. Said he had seen me in a dream and I was giving him my tithes. THe dude is a great guy, a prophet, a man who stood with me in prayers and fasting. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. He is a missionary there but here was he aksing me to tithe to him and not my church. I waited for God to give me the same dream but of course he never did

2 Corinthians 13:5 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Long story but the point is, please over and above the terrible insults and pride that fly across both sides of the divide, examine your doctrine. It helps to look outside your spiritual authority. If you are CE and CE teach tithing, then all literature will be biased towards that. Independent sources help alot. I can share afew. Don't study them in defense mode, seek the truth out of them.

I don't want you to stop tithing, I want you to understand tithing and then like me you make up your mind whether that is for you or not

Will a Man Rob God?
http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/32-Tithing1.pdf

Reconstructing a Biblical Model for Giving:
http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/33-Tithing2.pdf

http://www.tithing.com/
http://www.tithing.com/Breaking-and-Embracing.pdf#zoom=100

Gombs:

Care to explain why tithinhy is unscriptural and dishonest?

So, tithing is now a doctrine?

Do you have a pastor? As in, do you have a spiritual father? By spiritual father, I don't mean God.

Outta discuss. This scripture is not relevant here.

Why haven't you studied the ones youve been given, not in defense mode, but to seek the truth out of them?

I can also give you web links too...alot of them too