Covert1:
Iblwai1, I'm writing between straits but I had to reply as u're quite a gentleman. I wouldn't respond to ur friends pettiness. Pls do indulge me as I think u'd agree no one divulges the specifics of his capabilities. Even if I did I won't jeopardize the lives of our NN sailors and crew. His questions are merely regurgitations. Some of the topic is open knowledge, he should look them up.

I did say "some" Radar. Yes, anti-clutter radar exists. And it is possible to detect a submerged vessel's snorkel or periscope in an Area of Direct Military Interest (ADMI).

I'd assume u've made some study on this matter. You can also research on new advancements like Laser Radar which allows for light detection and ranging. Of course integration of assets from air to satellite to sea and even fellow submarines allow for better chances at detection. Some of these assets employ optical, radar or thermal means for detection.

But to explain my parable better a lot of focus is on the training and experience of the crew. Pls note naval warfare is a matter of life and death. Submarines have the advantage of knowing u're there before u may detect it so ship crews are highly trained for detection.

This training makes a lot of difference since detection is by both direct or indirect means. A lot of the focus here is indirect detection. Naval crews train to gain experience and ability to determine the difference between Sea entities and the sounds they generate. Mostly they are trained in specific areas of Radar detection that makes it possible sometimes for a naval officer to be able to tell what class of submerged vessel is been detected.

Yes atmospheric elements can be an interference but not necessarily a hindrance regardless of conditions as ships have endurance and can tarry for the kill. The Sea contains other marine life and the presence of a submerged boat adds to the dynamics that creates internal waves or alters the Sea balance and structure which generates chain reactions on the Sea Surface picked up by Radar etc for split evaluation and determination of what's possibly out there. It is a complex system but much is about the type of response or echo received to sound projected.

Beyond this are many other factors but that would be writing a paper. Technology would always evolve for detection as well for evasion. Already non-steel submarines are been designed as are Radars for visual or direct detection. We can always tete-a-tete going forward. Thank you.

bro i always felt ur a sensible person so let me correct u

the radars of a ship will never be able to pick up a un-submerged submarine, forget about a submarine snorkel , against the heavy sea clutter.

which is why ships have hull mounted sonars or towed sonars to detect submarines

the radars of a ship r optimized for

1.picking up air targets at long ranges

2.picking up surface vessel targets at short ranges

it is basically due to simple laws of physics ie curvature of the earth aka limitation of radio horizon

for detecting submarines u will need ASW helicopters or patrol aircrafts or UAVs equipped with sensors like sonar buoys, dunking sonars , MAD sensor , airborne specialized maritime surface search radars , carbon emission detection sensors etc including ships which have hull mounted sonars or towed sonars to detect submarines.

nemesis2u:
somebody plz remind the concerned person that the topic in question was can a ship borne radar detect a submarine periscope in high seas

i said no and he said yes countering my no

so the onus lies on him to prove it with facts based on laws of physics .

how hard is that , it is easier than writing whatever he wrote

god help the submariners and the ASW crew

that is why Russians Americans Chinese hell everybody goes around sniffing out the acoustic signature of the various prowling submarines wherever and whenever possible so that it can be added to the threat library of the onboard sonar system so that it can be matched with the ships/sub detected sonar echo readings for positive ID as to the type of submarine that has been detected .

i guess the above navies have nothing better to do

but what do i know

anyways i am out of this

everybody is free to believe whatever that rocks their boat.

science is always exact and to the point based on proven facts, it knows no pretty words otherwise it simply becomes literature

Iblawi1:


the radars of a ship will never be able to pick up a un-submerged submarine, forget about a submarine snorkel , against the heavy sea clutter.

Iblawi1:


the radars of a ship will never be able to pick up a un-submerged submarine, forget about a submarine snorkel , against the heavy sea clutter.

Iblawi1:


Bro I got your message from the other thread. Sorry for the late response, I've been busy and I only read few posts on Nairaland.

I think nemesis2u mixed things up this time.

The bolded part caused the whole issue. It all started with radar detecting a submarine that is not submerge.

Iblawi1:


the radars of a ship will never be able to pick up a un-submerged submarine, forget about a submarine snorkel , against the heavy sea clutter.

nemesis2u:


bro what does the above statement of mine means ?

it means

1. radars of a ship will never be able to pick up a un-submerged submarine.

2. and therefor radars of a ship can not pick up a submarine snorkel.

and this is what i wrote here

"can a ship borne radar detect a submarine periscope in high seas"

what does it imply indirectly in context of the whole discussion?

if a ship borne radar can detect a very small submarine periscope in high seas then detecting a un-submerged submarine will be a child's play for the ship borne radar isnt it?

so is there any explicit difference between the 2 statements of mine in context of the overall discussion ?

Iblawi1:




No need for you guys to get worked up. Radars and other technologies used on ships vary from the other. It will be meaningless generalizing the capabilities of ships and radars as one. Besides, real militaries use technologies/ techniques that are not common.

nemesis2u:


correct but somethings will always remain common

nemesis2u:


bro what does the above statement of mine means ?

it means

1. radars of a ship will never be able to pick up a un-submerged submarine.

2. and therefor radars of a ship can not pick up a submarine snorkel.

and this is what i wrote here

"can a ship borne radar detect a submarine periscope in high seas"

what does it imply indirectly in context of the whole discussion?

if a ship borne radar can detect a very small submarine periscope in high seas then detecting a un-submerged submarine will be a child's play for the ship borne radar isnt it?

so is there any explicit difference between the 2 statements of mine in context of the overall discussion ?

MikeCZA:


Besides prior surfacing the submarine will conduct surveillance or check any radar activity with it's ESM or the radar warning receiver system mounted on different antennas.

1. Charging batteries will be done outside the patrol or operational area.

2. So the sub will go into operational to hunt for targets or do whatever it is there to do. Then leave the area to recharge it's batteries.

jln115:


- it was either you or the other guy I mentioned, regardless endurance is literally the only advantage a nuclear submarine has over a d.e sub.

-AIP has nothing to do with stealth, it simply improves indurance, both Gotland and heroine use the same engines and are more or less the same length have almost same displacement.....it would be ignorant to assume one could possibly be more stealthy than the other. Also it only has to snorkel every couple of days, thus you would need sheer luck to even be within several hundred kilometres when it does snorkel.


- heroine class sub only has to snorkel every couple of days NOT for 2 hours every 24hours.

- yes that's why we bought them.....only superpowers have the means to project ample amount of equipment and troops to even consider building nuclear subs....our subs were bought for defensive purposes.

-So what you are telling me is that defence forces around the world train for fun and not for actual real life scenarios??

Why not use your original moniker Agugaust?

MikeCZA:


Besides prior surfacing the submarine will conduct surveillance or check any radar activity with it's ESM or the radar warning receiver system mounted on different antennas.

1. Charging batteries will be done outside the patrol or operational area.

2. So the sub will go into operational to hunt for targets or do whatever it is there to do. Then leave the area to recharge it's batteries.

Covert1:


A great thing we can reason. But let's not turn the truth on it's head. Pls pls u have great submarines, I do not dispute that but don't call a fly a bird. That's a stretch. Everyone knows the difference.

Nuclear submarines have more than just endurance. They are faster, quieter (new tech in d. E arguably close). They have longer range (surfaced & submerged) and pack greater firepower etc.

It is ignorance to think AIP has nothing to do with stealth. Beyond endurance it contributes immensely to a subs quietness. Air Independent Propulsion is dissimilar engine configuration as a d. E sub. Gotland class can stay submerged for weeks not months like a Nuke sub. Heroine class must snorkel within a 24hr period. Those are the facts except u're furnishing us with 'alternative facts'.

Not only superpowers can project men and equipment. Regional powers do too. A submarine is only a factor in the equation of military arsenal not an indication of overall military capability.

Thank goodness you agree your subs are for defensive purposes. A task for which it was exactly built and for which it did well in exercises with Nato. In a war it possibly could sink a boat or two which potentially gives it away. Only thing is it can delay an invasion but it cannot stop an invasion.

Agaugust?

Covert1:


Lol...just look at what u wrote C'mon now believe it especially with the help of ur resident "I too know" which is one sided relief.

jln115:

@Ibwali a Nigerian agrees you are talking sh1t

@nemesis2u an Indian agrees you are talking sh1t

@MikeCZA a South Africa soldier(if memory is correct) agrees you are talking sh1t


What makes you more knowledgeable about submarines than not just the three men above but the entire world......are you a military researcher??

jln115:


- What? Did you even bother to simply Google what our Heroine class subs are all about..... If you did you won't be using your fly/bird metaphor!

-HOW!!! HOW are nuclear subs quieter.....you just proved you are extremely ill informed about submarines in general......modern D.E subs are much quieter than Nuclear subs that's a fact mate, look it up

- dude AIP does not reduce noise, it simply continues charging the batteries while the sub is submerged, hence a d.e sub can run longer on battery power and thus extend under water indurance!!

-please provide a citation that states the HEROINE CLASS must surface every 24 hours.

-Which regional power operates a nuclear submarine? Oh yes none, so your argument is irrelevant!

- how can it sink an entire NATO fleet and not get detected during an exercise but not in a real life scenario?? Exercise simulate real life situations other wise what would the point be to even hold exercises?

- stop an envision from who exactly?

- yes you are agubugu

Covert1:


Dude quit this, would ya? Ok u want to be able to sleep, alright I'll give it to u ... your heroine class subs in SA are better, quieter, more powerful than US Ohio class submarines Oh sry ur subs in SA are better and more powerful than all NATO naval capabilities combined as they would sink them all if they showed up

Ah! Not to forget they can't be detected even un-submerged (snorting pipes/periscope, radar mast and all) by Nigeria's radar evasive warships with it's sophisticated processing and guidance systems. In fact they are ghosts in plain sight from ur submissions and according to ur resident "I too know", did u say from India.

By the way so u know the Stirling AIP engines on the Gotland subs are near quiet, so much so for not contributing to stealth.

Nuclear subs are for global strategic effect. But anyway in fact ur subs excel them all

Sure u'd love this Agaugust.

Dream On, Sweetly

Covert1:


Alice in wonderland story

jln115:


- What? Did you even bother to simply Google what our Heroine class subs are all about..... If you did you won't be using your fly/bird metaphor!

-HOW!!! HOW are nuclear subs quieter.....you just proved you are extremely ill informed about submarines in general......modern D.E subs are much quieter than Nuclear subs that's a fact mate, look it up

- dude AIP does not reduce noise, it simply continues charging the batteries while the sub is submerged, hence a d.e sub can run longer on battery power and thus extend under water indurance!!

-please provide a citation that states the HEROINE CLASS must surface every 24 hours.

-Which regional power operates a nuclear submarine? Oh yes none, so your argument is irrelevant!

- how can it sink an entire NATO fleet and not get detected during an exercise but not in a real life scenario?? Exercise simulate real life situations other wise what would the point be to even hold exercises?

- stop an envision from who exactly?

- yes you are agubugu

"The Swedish shipbuilder Kockums constructed three Gotland-class submarines for the Swedish Navy that are fitted with an auxiliary Stirling engine that burns liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to drive 75 kilowatt electrical generators for either propulsion or charging batteries. The endurance of the 1,500-tonne boats is around 14 days at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h)."

Iblawi1:


Don't you think you are contradicting yourself. Yes, I agree nuclear submarine are not as quiet as diesel electric submarines when electrically driven but not when using diesel engine. To great extent, AIP adds to stealth of the submarine and not just endurance.


There are other reasons that can contribute to quietness of nuclear submarine which could be because of the propeller design, reduced noise and magnetic signatures etc but nuclear propulsion still remains noisy and needs to be cooled down which leaves trails that can be picked up easily. Nuclear subs are usually larger than AIP/diesel electric submarines which even makes them easier to detect.


Diesel submarine can also hide on the floor in shallow water and remain completely silent and immobile until enemy pass by. This can make it difficult to seperate it from other objects in the environment.

jln115:


Not exactly, AIP allow the batteries to be charged submerged......diesel engines can't run while fully submerged for obvious reasons hence a sub must snorkel to allow the engine to charged the batteries.

While submerged all d.e subs run only on battery power.....thus AIP only allows the batteries to run longer while submerged!! Does not add to stealth....the diesel engine will still need to snorkel eventually to charge the batteries!

Rest of your post I agree with!!

Henry240:


You cannot claim to be mentally stable.

jln115:

What makes you more qualified than them..... simple question answer it!!

jln115:


-never said they are better, quieter yes, because all modern d.e subs are quieter than Nuclear subs....look it !!

- if NATO couldn't detect them the Nigerian Navy with much much more inferior systems will definitely not detect them......unless you are telling me the Nigerian Fleet is more advanced than NATO??



- Do you know how an AIP engine works?? Obviously not!!!

- I asked you which regional powers operate nuclear subs!! I also explicitly said are subs are for defensive purposes!! You have the fvcking memory of a gold fish!!

Covert1:


Hope ur catfish memory(u chose this path) reminds you that u knew nothing of AIP till I told u. Likewise the fact I also taught u ur subs are best suited for "littoral defence".

I'm a leave it here or noble talk?

Covert1:


You have vivid imaginations...

Answer: I don't massage ego.

Iblawi1:


That is the point I was making. The quietness/stealth of diesel electric submarines comes into play when it's electrically driven and AIP also help to increase the the time for which it can remain quiet/stealthy. I hope you get my point now. This was why I said it great adds to stealth of the D.E submarines.

If you say endurance is all AIP adds to D.E submarines, you should remember that they can endure thousands of miles while snorkeling.

Lastly, AIP can drive electric generators either for propulsion OR to charge batteries.

Iblawi1:


That is the point I was making. The quietness/stealth of diesel electric submarines comes into play when it's electrically driven and AIP also help to increase the the time for which it can remain quiet/stealthy. I hope you get my point now. This was why I said it great adds to stealth of the D.E submarines.

If you say endurance is all AIP adds to D.E submarines, you should remember that they can endure thousands of miles while snorkeling.

Lastly, AIP can drive electric generators either for propulsion OR to charge batteries.

Covert1:


A great job u do trying to make him understand. Hope he does cos so far all I see is a guy who "sees no bad in us". Everything is on the up and up for him in SA Lol. Btw their subs don't even have the AIP speaking of.

Tactically Speaking:

We can write from now to tmrw, fact is Nuclear subs are of greater advantage, period. Modern Nuke subs are basically built to be a hole in the water. It's reactor machinery noise is isolated. It is silent. It is nigh impossible to detect (some have said can't be detected). Their positions in a global ocean is an unknown. It's one weakness being very fast, is the heat it leaves on the surface while diving to depth and that mostly is negated by the hydrodynamics of the Sea. This same jin115 won't let us hear word if they get one - in a dream.

Diesel Electric Subs are great and deadly but it's touted stealthiness is remaining still at depth in contested waters. That's a fact. For the sake of saying they are great, the Gotland class is better. In fact the swedes are building subs that can survive torpedo hits but questionably yet in service. Still at that how many hits can it survive? It is limited in range by a whole host of factors not least it's need to breath. In a concentrated ADMI with Air-borne, Satellite, Ship, Submarine search and track sensors it is toast.

Submarines above all else hate search from up there, it almost always gives it away. T'is why range and survivability (need to stay submerged) matters so ur position is hardly compromised. The Heroine Class subs don't have that capability.

Nigeria is still in business.

jln115:


Dude he literally said the opposite than what you said!!!! How can you all of a sudden agree with him??

jln115:
to
AIP increases the time it can stay submerged thus increasing the time the sub runs on battery power.....so yes I get your point!! But it won't make it more stealthy than a non aip d.e sub if you get my point just increases the time/endurance of the batteries!!