Opinions differ over whether a woman commits a sin, if she chooses to abort a child conceived after being molested.

Two well-known pastors, T.B. Joshua and Chris Oyakhilome were asked this question and their answers are below:

Pastor T.B. Joshua was asked: Is it a sin to commit an abortion if you have been molested?

His Response: "Committing an abortion when you are raped is a double sin. God often uses foolish things to express Himself. Many great people and heroes today are products of this background. In any way, in any circumstance you find yourself in today as you are reading this, you have not committed any unpardonable sin. Run to Jesus; don't run from Him in whatever situation you find yourself." (Source: AskTBJosha Question and Answer session with his followers on Facebook, Spring 2014)
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Pastor Chris Oyakhilome was asked: Can a baby that is a product of rape be aborted?

Note: Using David and Bathsheba’s case to answer the question, Pastor Chris said despite David’s prayer and fasting, the child who was a result of David’s sin still died.)

His Response: "No child should be brought into this world by force, if a lady has been raped, it is left for her to make a decision of whether to keep the baby or not. If you have never been raped or someone close to you haven’t, you may not agree with this statement. It is never mentioned anywhere in the bible, to keep a child from a woman who was raped!" (Source: Christ Embassy’s Online Communion Service, Spring 2014)
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What do YOU think?

Is a woman committing a sin, if she chooses to abort a child conceived after being molested?

What if...

...the child is conceived through incest?

...the mother's life is endangered because of illnesses like maternal diabetes or preeclampsia?

...the child has severe birth defects?

Abortion is Murder whether the baby came about through molestation or in wedlock.

^^^

Gbam!

Why do you think Pastor T.B. Joshua and Pastor Chris Oyakhilome hold opposing views of abortion?

zboyd:
Why do you think Pastor T.B. Joshua and Pastor Chris Oyakhilome hold opposing views of abortion?

Because they are two different human being who, anyway, don't have the authority to interpret God's word to anybody.

They are both saying their personal opinions.

Everybody was created for a reason, so no lady has the right to kill God's creation for any reason whatsoever
. However dont judge people that have already done it, show them love.

italo:


Because they are two different human being who, anyway, don't have the authority to interpret God's word to anybody.

They are both saying their personal opinions.

I disagree.

If both Pastors consider themselves to be men of God, they DO have the authority AND are commanded to teach God's word to their flock, as laid out in the Bible - no deviations - no personal opinions accepted. "Thou shalt not kill" means just that - "Thou shalt not kill".
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1 Timothy 3:1-7
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
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But that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Personal opinions and/or individual interpretations of Scriptures is why there are so many churches teaching so many different things that may or may not be entirely scriptural - yet all claim to be Bible-based churches - which causes all kinds of balls of confusion. Each church considers itself the 'True Church' - all others sorry seconds.

As for abortion...Jews and Christians have different views which definitely causes some hackles to be raised.

"An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.” These facts form the basis for the Jewish legal view on abortion."

Read more here: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law.shtml

zboyd:


I disagree.

If both Pastors consider themselves to be men of God, they DO have the authority AND are commanded to teach God's word to their flock, as laid out in the Bible - no deviations - no personal opinions accepted. "Thou shalt not kill" means just that - "Thou shalt not kill".
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

1 Timothy 3:1-7
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

But that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? Personal opinions and/or individual interpretations of Scriptures is why there are so many churches teaching so many different things that may or may not be entirely scriptural - yet all claim to be Bible-based churches - which causes all kinds of balls of confusion. Each church considers itself the 'True Church' - all others sorry seconds.

As for abortion...Jews and Christians have different views which definitely causes some hackles to be raised.

"An unborn fetus in Jewish law is not considered a person (Heb. nefesh, lit. “soul”) until it has been born. The fetus is regarded as a part of the mother’s body and not a separate being until it begins to egress from the womb during parturition (childbirth). In fact, until forty days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as “mere fluid.” These facts form the basis for the Jewish legal view on abortion."

Read more here: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Bioethics/Abortion/Fetus_in_Jewish_Law.shtml

Those men are not overseers of anyone.

Bishops and priests are ordained by the One true Church of God, not self-ordained.

Those men are just businessmen, deceiving people like you to make money.

In Matthew 28, Jesus was talking to the Church, not just any scammer.

I don't want to go into what any Jewish establishment might say...unless you are Jewish and subscribe to their law as true.

What do you believe in...let me use that to show you that abortion is a grevious sin and crime.

Abortion should b made legal

If it happens to anyone I know, I'll take the person immediately to the hospital (if she assent to it) to have the low life SOB's sperm washed off.

If you are molested then surely it is god's will.

If you have a baby, again, it is god's will that both you and the child should suffer through remembering one of life's most traumatic events.

It is god's will that the child grow up resenting its father.

It is god's will that the mother should have conflicting feelings about the child.

Clearly this is a wonderful and considerate god.

See how religion liquefies the brain?
Double sin? on whose part? TB Joshua i pray your daughter conceives from rape so you can have beautiful stories to tell the 'lovely' child.And the day will also come when the child will ask for its father; what will your answer be then?

Is committing murder a crime if a man track down and kill the man who murdered his child?

A righteous lady will reluctantly agree to an abortion reason being that she knows it is not right. Most ladies that have iota of the knowledge and love of God usually spend a lot of time weeping , asking for God's forgiveness on account of committing abortion.
I have said it before on this forum, that many things invented and practiced in modern medicine are not necessarily righteous(moral) in the eyes of Holybooks
Never use Rev Chris Oyakhilome as a Standard, his teachings and lifestyle will lead no one to heaven, Period. Just pray for him that God will restore him to the paths of righteousness

italo:


Those men are not overseers of anyone.

Bishops and priests are ordained by the One true Church of God, not self-ordained.

Those men are just businessmen, deceiving people like you to make money.

In Matthew 28, Jesus was talking to the Church, not just any scammer.

I don't want to go into what any Jewish establishment might say...unless you are Jewish and subscribe to their law as true.

What do you believe in...let me use that to show you that abortion is a grevious sin and crime.

First, if you're familiar with any of my posts on the deceptive nature of some pastors, you would know that I'm not one to be deceived by Slick Rick wolves in sheep's clothing.

Second, even if the aforementioned pastors are "just businessmen" and "scammers", shouldn't they, at least, be in agreement that all scriptural teachings be the same - not different, according to what's laid out in the Bible? There should be no opposing poles. It confuses congregants - makes them question the validity of their pastor. That's no good.

Third, for me, I'm pro-choice. It's the woman's choice - her conscience - her decision if chooses to abort at the bequest of a boyfriend or husband.

Fourth, I'm not Jewish. However, I am continually amazed at the number of Christians who don't know or...conveniently choose to overlook the fact that, Jesus was born to Jewish (Hebrew) parents, circumcised as a Jew 8 days after birth, raised as a Jew, died on the cross as "The King Of The Jews", entombed in a crypt, according to Jewish rites, resurrected as a Jew...and...castigate Judaism and the Jewish people like it's no tomorrow.

Very weird...

zboyd:


First, if you're familiar with any of my posts on the deceptive nature of some pastors, you would know that I'm not one to be deceived by Slick Rick wolves in sheep's clothing.

Second, even if the aforementioned pastors are "just businessmen" and "scammers", shouldn't they, at least, be in agreement that all scriptural teachings be the same - not different, according to what's laid out in the Bible? There should be no opposing poles. It confuses congregants - makes them question the validity of their pastor. That's no good.

Third, for me, I'm pro-choice. It's the woman's choice - her conscience - her decision if chooses to abort at the bequest of a boyfriend or husband.

Fourth, I'm not Jewish. However, I am continually amazed at the number of Christians who don't know or...conveniently choose to overlook the fact that, Jesus was born to Jewish (Hebrew) parents, circumcised as a Jew 8 days after birth, raised as a Jew, died on the cross as "The King Of The Jews", entombed in a crypt, according to Jewish rites, resurrected as a Jew...and...castigate Judaism and the Jewish people like it's no tomorrow.

Very weird...

These scammers cannot give you the whole truth because they simply dont have it. The Holy Spirit guides his Church into all truth and they are not a part of that Church.

2. You mean it is fair for two or more human beings to eliminate another one if their conscience permits them?

Can I agree with someone else to kill you if our consciences permit?

3. I don't understand how the talk of 'castigating Judaism and Jewish people entered this matter. Who castigated anyone?

Are you suggesting that Christians should accept everything 'Jewish' as true simply because Christ was a Jew?

mmsen:
If you are molested then surely it is god's will.

If you have a baby, again, it is god's will that both you and the child should suffer through remembering one of life's most traumatic events.

It is god's will that the child grow up resenting its father.

It is god's will that the mother should have conflicting feelings about the child.

Clearly this is a wonderful and considerate god.

kill the child so that you can avoid "pain" right? Because on your scale pain ranks heavier than life.

A woman gets r.aped by a criminal. It is God's will

The woman then gets pregnant as a result of the r.ape. It is God's will

The woman wants to abort but the society doesnt allow her. It is God's will

The woman gets depressed with the pregnancy but still gives birth. It is God's will

The woman becomes an alcoholic parent as a result of depression and poverty. It is God's will

The child grows up with a depressed single mother and learns that the father is a no good Criminal. It is God's will

The child becomes a juvenile delinquent and a menace to society. It is God's will.




How many children that come from r.ape s.ex grow up to become good citizens of the country?


We religious people need to stop using God as a shield for our inadequate consideration of moral issues.

Ubenedictus:


kill the child so that you can avoid "pain" right? Because on your scale pain ranks heavier than life.

There is no 'pain' without life.

Life for the life's sake is a principle pushed by those with power on those without so that they forever have an underclass to 'aid' and manipulate.

striktlymi:
Is committing murder a crime if a man track down and kill the man who murdered his child?

That can be owed to irresistible impulse

@italo,

It is strange to find a merciful and Good God to have as his will the evil of ra.pe, and even try to promote some form of happiness behind it. It leaves the question, is Evil necessary?

Kay17:


That can be owed to irresistible impulse

@italo,

It is strange to find a merciful and Good God to have as his will the evil of ra.pe, and even try to promote some form of happiness behind it. It leaves the question, is Evil necessary?

Yeah but it doesn't make it legal.

zboyd:
Opinions differ over whether a woman commits a sin, if she chooses to abort a child conceived after being molested.

well IMHO, 2 wrongs don't make a right, a woman who tries such also risks her own life in the process, we can't right a wrong by committing more wrong but we could give way to forgiveness...

striktlymi:


Yeah but it doesn't make it legal.

Of course I know that.

mmsen:
If you are molested then surely it is god's will.

If you have a baby, again, it is god's will that both you and the child should suffer through remembering one of life's most traumatic events.

It is god's will that the child grow up resenting its father.

It is god's will that the mother should have conflicting feelings about the child.

Clearly this is a wonderful and considerate god.

the mistake you are making is that you think every thing that happens in life is from God. Its most likely not God's plan for any lady to be raped. But God can definitely turn a bad situation to a good one.

abortion is murder because those foetus already have life, they only need to develop physically enough to be able to survive in the outside world.

michaelwestern:


the mistake you are making is that you think every thing that happens in life is from God. Its most likely not God's plan for any lady to be raped. But God can definitely turn a bad situation to a good one.

abortion is murder because those foetus already have life, they only need to develop physically enough to be able to survive in the outside world.

So god is no longer all powerful? Is god 'all powerful' when you decide that he is...

Is semen also 'life'? If a man allows his seed to fall on the body (and die) instead of inside a woman is that also 'murder'?

How about the eggs within an ovary? Is the use of contraception 'murder'?

italo:


These scammers cannot give you the whole truth because they simply dont have it. The Holy Spirit guides his Church into all truth and they are not a part of that Church.

2. You mean it is fair for two or more human beings to eliminate another one if their conscience permits them?

Can I agree with someone else to kill you if our consciences permit?

3. I don't understand how the talk of 'castigating Judaism and Jewish people entered this matter. Who castigated anyone?

Are you that Christians should accept everything 'Jewish' as true simply because Christ was a Jew?

1. Millions of people fall for religious scammers, and will defend the teaching of those scammers 24/7, no matter what scripture says.

2. Whether a woman decides to abort or not is her decision and she has to deal with the consequences - good or bad.

3. Some people kill for the sheer 'joy' of killing. In fact, the killing of people is all over the Old Testament.

4. The sixth commandment originated with the Hebrews who later became the Jewish people. For two pastors to have opposing views on abortion (killing an unborn child) is a bit disturbing.

5. The reference to some people "castigating" Jews was merely an observation and admittedly not really related to the topic.

mmsen:


So god is no longer all powerful? Is god 'all powerful' when you decide that he is...

Is semen also 'life'? If a man allows his seed to fall on the body (and die) instead of inside a woman is that also 'murder'?

How about the eggs within an ovary? Is the use of contraception 'murder'?

God is all powerful but he doesn't control everything that happens on earth, if he did that we would all live like zombies. instead he has given man the free will to do whatever he likes, moreover satan is the god of this world.

life comes in after fertilization when the zygote is formed.

michaelwestern:


God is all powerful but he doesn't control everything that happens on earth, if he did that we would all live like zombies. instead he has given man the free will to do whatever he likes, moreover satan is the god of this world.

life comes in after fertilization when the zygote is formed.

'All powerful' = powerful everywhere at all times in all places.

You are either 'all powerful' or not, there is no in between mode.

Has the church amended its' dogma (again) on the sly?

P.S.
So sperm is dead?

Eggs are dead prior to fertilisation?

mmsen:


'All powerful' = powerful everywhere at all times in all places.

You are either 'all powerful' or not, there is no in between mode.

Has the church amended its' dogma (again) on the sly?

P.S.
So sperm is dead?

Eggs are dead prior to fertilisation?

you are confusing me, whatz your obsession with all powerful? did you even read my post at all?

all powerful does not mean being everywhere at the same time( although i dont know how this affects our discussion).

my point is that God does not control everybody like zombies. someone that carries out rape is not doing it because God commanded him to do so, he does it by his own freewill, so you cant blame God for that.

salt is sodium chloride, sodium itself is not salt neither is chloride itself. but when both elements come together it becomes salt. does that mean that sodium alone is useless?

I stumbled on a documentary cum debate about abortion; about whether there are conditions where abortion is not murder or a sin e.g threat to the mother's life, pregnancy due to r.ape or molest.

Some said there are no scenarios or stage of pregnancy under which aborting a pregnancy is not murder; even if it was done to save another life.

Their argument being that from the second an egg is fertilized by the sperm (within 24hours or so of ovulation), the gender and gene (genetic trait) of the baby is fully fixed even if it is still a single cell.

That the gene houses the entire genetic and characteristic trait of the baby; the complexion, eye colour, the nose and facial structure, the fingerprint; to even the structure of the lip thread -everything that will make the baby unique and different from another person is already fixed from fertilization.

And that whatever already has a gender and detailed genetic trait like that is already a person and a unique individual to God -someone with an identity to Him. That a fertilized egg is already "a him" or "a her" to God (not an "it" ). And terminating it because its still a single cell is still killing a person.

Another school of thought is that, the hebrew word for soul is "Nephesh" which means "to exhale". So whatever cannot exhale does not have a soul.

Now according to science, while a baby does not take its first breathe until birth, it never the less begins fetal breathing movement from the third month (9th week to be precise). That's when it begins to practise the rythmic movement of inhale and exhale.

So to people in that school of opinion, a feotus does not become a living soul until after the second month of pregnancy. So to them abortion is only murder if done after the feotus can exhale coz that is when it becomes a living soul (an exhaling being) to God.

There were many other excuses people gave to either justify or condemn abortion but these were the only ones that used scripture or God to make their point.

Which argument is more air-tight to you?

But honestly to me, someone that already has a gender and a detailed genetic trait (character and characteristics) is already a him or a her to God not an it; its already a person not a thing -even if still a single cell.

Unless you want to argue that, just coz something has a gender and a genetic trait doesn't mean it has a soul yet, its still not alive, so flushing it is not murder.

Question is when does a baby in the womb become a person to God? Is it when it becomes marked with a gender and a genetic trait at conception, or when it can inhale and exhale (a living soul) ?

michaelwestern:


you are confusing me, whatz your obsession with all powerful? did you even read my post at all?

all powerful does not mean being everywhere at the same time( although i dont know how this affects our discussion).

my point is that God does not control everybody like zombies. someone that carries out rape is not doing it because God commanded him to do so, he does it by his own freewill, so you cant blame God for that.

salt is sodium chloride, sodium itself is not salt neither is chloride itself. but when both elements come together it becomes salt. does that mean that sodium alone is useless?

It's very simple, to be 'omnipotent' is an absolute term. There is no ambiguity in absolute - you are or you are not. You cannot be part time omnipotent or omnipresent.

If you are omni-everything then everything by definition is 'of you' which would include life's worst experiences, this is what the bible says:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."


If your own holy book claims that god takes credit for tragedies then why are you saying something different?