vooks:
is it because you can't understand it that you imagine it is gibberish?

The tongues in Acts 2 came handy because lot of people heard them speak in their language. Paul was also blessed with this gift because it must have made his missionary work easier. He communicated with people from different tribes and dialects. And even in Corinth, there was a multitude of languages being constantly used because it was a center of East and West trade.

Now, are you saying you can find a present day tongue speaker who will go on to a mission field in Brazil and speak portuguese without prior education of the language.

mbaemeka:


The language spoken by the 120 wasn't a known language. The bible ONLY said that those around them understood the language individually in their own spoken language. What that means is that even though the tongue spoken was the same that Paul referred to in 1 Corinthians 14, in this situation someone from say Russia understood him, and yet someone from Spain too and someone from China too etc.

Does the same apply in your church?

you are building on your earlier assumption that tongues are for propagating the gospel. You are yet to prove this.
The gift was not exclusive to missioners/traveling evangelists but to EVERY believer.
Who told you that Paul spoke in tongues while evangelizing?

Now, I have heard of missionaries who spoke in a local dialect without learning so the answer to your question is YES.

shdemidemi:


The tongues in Acts 2 came handy because lot of people heard them speak in their language. Paul was also blessed with this gift because it must have made his missionary work easier. He communicated with people from different tribes and dialects. And even in Corinth, there was a multitude of languages being constantly used because it was a center of East and West trade.

Now, are you saying you can find a present day tongue speaker who will go on to a mission field in Brazil and speak portuguese without prior education of the language.

mbaemeka:


I agree that Paul wrote the book of Corinthians as a correctional tool. But what he was correcting wasn't necessarily what he taught in Romans. Paul had physically visited the Church in Corinth before and Taught them many things verbally but when he left they misapplied some things so he wrote them this time to correct the MISAPPLICATION of the things he had orally and personally taught them. So we can learn ALL from the book and not some.

In that book for e.g, he corrected the administration of tongues and not that he claimed there was an impending cessation.

We don't need to overstretch this bro.

You agree it is a correctional book and that is what matter. There is a problem of misapplication in this church that the Apostle addressed hence we must be careful not to pick up doctrines from Paul's gentle rebuke of this church.

If we must pick up doctrines, we had better go to the doctrinal books like Roman, Thessalonians and Ephesians.

My brother,
Did you just say this? is this book inspired?

Is interpreting tongues a doctrine worth picking from Corinthians? Is paul presenting the gift as erroneous or as a matter of fact?
What about the glorious Resurrection chapter 15?

shdemidemi:


We don't need to overstretch this bro.

You agree it is a correctional book and that is what matter. There is a problem of misapplication in this church that the Apostle addressed hence we must be careful not to pick up doctrines from Paul's gentle rebuke of this church.

If we must pick up doctrines, we had better go to the doctrinal books like Roman, Thessalonians and Ephesians.

Bidam:
But the OP did not say that na bro.. . The body of Christ is not limited to Nigeria.. Think!

Read thé OP again bro.
It was talking about * TODAY* not yestetday or 2000 years ago.

ichuka:

Read thé OP again bro.
It was talking about * TODAY* not yestetday or 2000 years ago.

Ok, do you agree that every believer is told to earnestly desire the gift of prophecy?

vooks:
My brother,
Did you just say this? is this book inspired?

Is interpreting tongues a doctrine worth picking from Corinthians? Is paul presenting the gift as erroneous or as a matter of fact?
What about the glorious Resurrection chapter 15?

Every word in the bible is God inspired, but that is not to say its a novel. We must rightly divide it to discern what is applicable and what best place us in our position as subjects, heirs and a bond servant of the Almighty God.

shdemidemi:


We don't need to overstretch this bro.

You agree it is a correctional book and that is what matter. There is a problem of misapplication in this church that the Apostle addressed hence we must be careful not to pick up doctrines from Paul's gentle rebuke of this church.

If we must pick up doctrines, we had better go to the doctrinal books like Roman, Thessalonians and Ephesians.

My bad mr.vooks and here was i thinking shdemidemi and vooks are one and same.

Bidam:
My bad mr.vooks and here was i thinking shdemidemi and vooks are one and same.

you see yourself!

you won't apologise to me abi?

vooks:
you are building on your earlier assumption that tongues are for propagating the gospel. You are yet to prove this.
The gift was not exclusive to missioners/traveling evangelists but to EVERY believer.
Who told you that Paul spoke in tongues while evangelizing?

Now, I have heard of missionaries who spoke in a local dialect without learning so the answer to your question is YES.

You do no have to lie for God, He an defend Himself.

You and I know you have to learn to speak german if you must preach to a german.


As for Paul, whose message turned the then world on its head by the gospel of Christ; couple with the fact that he said he speaks in tongue more than most himself. I can categorically tell you that the man was gifted with speaking quite a few languages.

shdemidemi:


you see yourself!

you won't apologise to me abi?

Ok, my unreserved apology o! but your question concerning perfection is dishonest, no one has attained perfection not even Paul, whether it's corporately or individually, NO ONE, hence the need for the five governmental offices that Jesus administratively instituted in the church.

Bidam:
Ok, my unreserved apology o! but your question concerning perfection is dishonest, no one has attained perfection not even Paul, whether it's corporately or individually, NO ONE, hence the need for the five governmental offices that Jesus administratively instituted in the church.

Apology accepted from my virtual boss.

The word is teleios in greek.. In context, it refers to maturity/fully grown.

The sort of perfect you are talking about will not happen in this world but in the kingdom of heaven.

My brother,
the reason I have heard you accused of circular arguments on this topic is because you fail to exhaust ANY point. You are hopping, adding assumptions and building on them. This am afraid is NO way to debate or share your faith. You will be recycling the same arguments ten years later and you will be wondering why you don't get nowhere with nobody

Paul speaking in tongues more than anybody else does not mean he spoke more languages than all combined


Some facts you have willfully ignored or are scared of confronting;
1. Nowhere are tongues used to preach the gospel
2. EDIFY means EDIFY and in NO instance nowhere in the scriptures does it mean anything else
3. Nowhere is it recorded that paul was a multilingual preacher nor that the same was a spiritual gift

Here is how I pick out indoctrination. In a debate;
1. somebody boldly makes unscriptural assertions and they can barely support them
2. They keep on repeating the assertions over and over
3. They cling to the assertions no matter how illogical or unscriptural or baseless the assertions are proved to be

shdemidemi:


You do no have to lie for God, He an defend Himself.

You and I know you have to learn to speak german if you must preach to a german.


As for Paul, whose message turned the then world on its head by the gospel of Christ; couple with the fact that he said he speaks in tongue more than most himself. I can categorically tell you that the man was gifted with speaking quite a few languages.

oK, Thanks.

shdemidemi:



Apology accepted from my virtual boss.

The word is teleios in greek.. In context, it refers to maturity/fully grown.

The sort of perfect you are talking about will not happen in this world but in the kingdom of heaven.

Maturity is in degrees .The church is not yet FULLY GROWN...Care to explain Paul here. "Not that I have already reached the goal or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus".Phil 3:12 (HCS).

Are there parts of Corinthians you believe are not meant for nobody else?
Please share them and EXPLAIN from scriptures why they are not

Thank you

shdemidemi:


Every word in the bible is God inspired, but that is not to say its a novel. We must rightly divide it to discern what is applicable and what best place us in our position as subjects, heirs and a bond servant of the Almighty God.

vooks:
My brother,
the reason I have heard you accused of circular arguments on this topic is because you fail to exhaust ANY point. You are hopping, adding assumptions and building on them. This am afraid is NO way to debate or share your faith. You will be recycling the same arguments ten years later and you will be wondering why you don't get nowhere with nobody

Don't patronise me bro. I am not here to change anyone's mind, God does that.

vooks:

Paul speaking in tongues more than anybody else does not mean he spoke more languages than all combined

I never said he did, I wonder where you got that from.

vooks:

Some facts you have willfully ignored or are scared of confronting;
1. Nowhere are tongues used to preach the gospel

scared! for what?

I wonder how else you need to be shown before you understand it.

Jesus rose from the dead, He appeared to His disciples instructing them to wait for the empowerment of the Holy Spirit which will enable them to testify/bear witness of His resurrection.

vooks:

2. EDIFY means EDIFY and in NO instance nowhere in the scriptures does it mean anything else

What is important here, is it the self edification or the edification of the complete body?

I wonder if Timothy or Siilas or Titus were ever told to speak in an unknown tongue to grow. think!

vooks:

3. Nowhere is it recorded that paul was a multilingual preacher nor that the same was a spiritual gift

Here is how I pick out indoctrination. In a debate;
1. somebody boldly makes unscriptural assertions and they can barely support them
2. They keep on repeating the assertions over and over
3. They cling to the assertions no matter how illogical or unscriptural or baseless the assertions are proved to be

Paul mentioned it himself, so what is the issue here!

Bidam:
oK, Thanks. Maturity is in degrees .The church is not yet FULLY GROWN...Care to explain Paul here. "Not that I have already reached the goal or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus".Phil 3:12 (HCS).

That is what I am saying, no man can reach full maturity because we carry a body of sin (sin nature). But we grow and day by day from one degree of God's glory to a higher degree.

Perfection as regards to the church is the complete work of the Apostles. The present church does not need to lay any other foundation. All we need is to glean from what had been perfectly done by the Apostles.

shdemidemi:


That is what I am saying, no man can reach full maturity because we carry a body of sin (sin nature). But we grow and day by day from one degree of God's glory to a higher degree.

The sin nature has been dealt with on the cross.

Perfection as regards to the church is the complete work of the Apostles. The present church does not need to lay any other foundation. All we need is to glean from what had been perfectly done by the Apostles.

Care to share a scripture concerning the bold?

shdemidemi

Don't patronise me bro. I am not here to change anyone's mind, God does that.

Don't confuse your assumptions for scriptures

I never said he did, I wonder where you got that from.

Where is it written that paul preached in other languages?

scared! for what?

Scared of the truth
I wonder how else you need to be shown before you understand it.

Jesus rose from the dead, He appeared to His disciples instructing them to wait for the empowerment of the Holy Spirit which will enable them to testify/bear witness of His resurrection.

I need scriptures that show it. We have sufficient scriptures on tongues and none on witnessing in tongues. Other than your imagination, where else do you find evangelists preaching in a language they never learnt?

What is important here, is it the self edification or the edification of the complete body?

I wonder if Timothy or Siilas or Titus were ever told to speak in an unknown tongue to grow. think!

Self-edification is edification. Edification of the entire church is edification. Paul spoke against praying in tongues publicly since others had NOTHING to gain from them if nobody was interpreting.
Is edification beneficial? Yes it is. If so, what replaced tongues as a means of edification and at what point in time?

I need to think, am not thinking. Wow! Are you angry?

Paul mentioned it himself, so what is the issue here!

Where does Paul mention witnessing in tongues?

Was intepreting tongues a custom made spiritual gift for Corinthians or is it as universal as other gifts?
What is interpreting tongues?


Once again my brother,
Gish-gallopping won't save you. I can prophesy that unless and until you confront the traditions you desperately cling to, 15 years from now, you will be regurgitating the same trash

What is the 'complete work of the apostles'?
When was it completed?

shdemidemi:


That is what I am saying, no man can reach full maturity because we carry a body of sin (sin nature). But we grow and day by day from one degree of God's glory to a higher degree.

Perfection as regards to the church is the complete work of the Apostles. The present church does not need to lay any other foundation. All we need is to glean from what had been perfectly done by the Apostles.

Bidam:
Ok, do you agree that every believer is told to earnestly desire the gift of prophecy?

Gift of Prophecy?
is that what the Prophetic Ministry has been relegated to?
So any believer that says.....“i see,i saw,in my vision,the Lord said,in my dream......is now a prophet of God abi?lol.
My bro.mention one(just one)Prophet of God here in nigeria and lets discuss wholly the Prophetic Ministry.

vooks:
Are there parts of Corinthians you believe are not meant for nobody else?
Please share them and EXPLAIN from scriptures why they are not

Thank you

One of those instances was when Paul told the men to stay away from women in Corinth. This was because Corinth draws a semblance with our present day Las Vegas, even worse. Corinth was a hub for brothels, gambling, idolatory and all manner of all licentiousness. Corinth was probably the most the most immoral, wicked, corrupt city in the Roman empire.

There was a great temple dedicated to one of the Greek goddesses that sat above a promenade above the city of Corinth. And at the very height of Corinth this temple up on the hill to which they worshipped the Athenian goddess, had thousands of prostitutes who were operating as the goddesses of the temple. You have to realize that their whole society was programmed to this, and so it was just part and parcel of their religion to be involved in immoral practice with the prostitutes of the city.

And in the very midst of the gross immorality, in this great city known for its activity of commerce and trade, comes this one lone man. The gospel of God was rested on this one man. In spite of all, Paul persevered and christianity thrived in this city.

In other words some of those things Paul them will not be generally applicable to all christians.

is there ANY of what Paul writes about spiritual gifts that is not applicable to the (then) entire body of Christ barring your cessation theory?

shdemidemi:


One of those instances was when Paul told the men to stay away from women in Corinth. This was because Corinth draws a semblance with our present day Las Vegas, even worse. Corinth was a hub for brothels, gambling, idolatory and all manner of all licentiousness. Corinth was probably the most the most immoral, wicked, corrupt city in the Roman empire.

There was a great temple dedicated to one of the Greek goddesses that sat above a promenade above the city of Corinth. And at the very height of Corinth this temple up on the hill to which they worshipped the Athenian goddess, had thousands of prostitutes who were operating as the goddesses of the temple. You have to realize that their whole society was programmed to this, and so it was just part and parcel of their religion to be involved in immoral practice with the prostitutes of the city.

And in the very midst of the gross immorality, in this great city known for its activity of commerce and trade, comes this one lone man. The gospel of God was rested on this one man. In spite of all, Paul persevered and christianity thrived in this city.

In other words some of those things Paul them will not be generally applicable to all christians.

vooks:
What is the 'complete work of the apostles'?
When was it completed?

This was Paul explaining to the gentiles how they have become part of the fold-
Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 [size=24pt]And are built (past tense) upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;[/size]

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Which of my two questions do these verses answer and what is the answer?

shdemidemi:

This was Paul explaining to the gentiles how they have become part of the fold-
Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built (past tense) upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

vooks:
is there ANY of what Paul writes about spiritual gifts that is not applicable to the (then) entire body of Christ barring your cessation theory?

My friend, Paul made this carnal church understand that some gifts will be done away with at some point. Today, it is quite evident that we have been unable to carry out those sort of miracles the apostle wrought just after pentecost.

Moreover, Paul never spoke about those showy gifts in the more spiritually matured churches. Pau;'s message always revolved around Faith, Love and Hope.

The problem in the carnal church was lack of love. Paul taught them love and not self edification cos love isn't self(ish).

In a more matured church where they had love, he taught faith.

And where they had passed in love and faith, he taught the meat of the word which is embedded in HOPE.

ichuka:

Gift of Prophecy?
is that what the Prophetic Ministry has been relegated to?
So any believer that says.....“i see,i saw,in my vision,the Lord said,in my dream......is now a prophet of God abi?lol.
My bro.mention one(just one)Prophet of God here in nigeria and lets discuss wholly the Prophetic Ministry.

Bro quit playing to the gallery and deviating, i just asked you a question from scripture not from my imagination. Let's forget about Nigeria issues for now and look at the blueprint from the NT. Look at what Paul is telling the Corinthians which applies to you as well.Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 1 cor 12:1 NIV.
And the purpose of the thread is to correct your misinformed mind concerning prophecy too which is a gift that has not ceased in the body of Christ.

Hear Paul AGAIN. “Let two or three Prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30But if anything is revealed to another who sits by let the first
keep silent.” (1 Corinthians 14:29-30) Don't forget he encourages the Corinthians to desire the gift of prophecy which you despise because of the abuse in Nigeria in 1 cor 14:1.

Your friend shdemidemi talks about correction because of the carnality of the Corinthians but it was the same Paul that told the Thessalonians not to despise prophesying as you folks are doing here.(1 Thessalonians 5:20).

vooks:
shdemidemi
Don't confuse your assumptions for scripturesWhere is it written that paul preached in other languages?
I need scriptures that show it. We have sufficient scriptures on tongues and none on witnessing in tongues. Other than your imagination, where else do you find evangelists preaching in a language they never learnt?
Self-edification is edification. Edification of the entire church is edification. Paul spoke against praying in tongues publicly since others had NOTHING to gain from them if nobody was interpreting.
Is edification beneficial? Yes it is. If so, what replaced tongues as a means of edification and at what point in time?I need to think, am not thinking. Wow! Are you angry?

Where does Paul mention witnessing in tongues?Was intepreting tongues a custom made spiritual gift for Corinthians or is it as universal as other gifts?
What is interpreting tongues?Once again my brother,
Gish-gallopping won't save you. I can prophesy that unless and until you confront the traditions you desperately cling to, 15 years from now, you will be regurgitating the same trash

Don't just stay here and argue, if I say a thing you do not agree with, pull ou your bible to prove me wrong.

I said witness is one aver what they know or what they have seen.

Did the 120 testify after they got empowered by the Spirit?


What language do you think they speak in today's churches when they go -rababababababarababbraba? Guess what I have done it before.

Take time to go check how king James use Unknown tongue for what the corinth Church spoke and tongues for what Paul and the 120 spoke.

This is your contradiction.
On one hand we have the scriptures so we do not need the spiritual gifts, but on the other hand, LONG before we had the scriptures, the gifts were done away with because no mention is made of the gifts to the churches. Which is it sir?

Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable. I can also argue that the reason the gifts were never mentioned is because they perfectly understood them when he taught and there was no need for an epistle to correct them. See in a bid to understand scriptures you have dug dip into the circumstances of the epistles. But am afraid you are missing at truth staring at you as you keep digging for 'deeper' significance of the text. Before you read between the lines, please read the lines


it is extremely CARNAL and it borders on blasphemy to impute purpose to Inspired epistles and on that basis to rank them as less significant. Paul taught in Corinthians some truths you won't find nowhere else because Holy Spirit wanted me to learn about them. So that lame and dumb theory of Corinthians being 'immature' so the epistles are irrelevant won't wash. He also taught love,faith and hope to this church the supposedly 'mature' doctrine

shdemidemi:

My friend, Paul made this carnal church understand that some gifts will be done away with at some point. Today, it is quite evident that we have been unable to carry out those sort of miracles the apostle wrought just after pentecost.

Moreover, Paul never spoke about those showy gifts in the more spiritually matured churches. Pau;'s message always revolved around Faith, Love and Hope.

The problem in the carnal church was lack of love. Paul taught them love and not self edification cos love isn't self(ish).

In a more matured church where they had love, he taught faith.

And where they had passed in love and faith, he taught the meat of the word which is embedded in HOPE.

vooks:
This is your contradiction.
On one hand we have the scriptures so we do not need the spiritual gifts, but on the other hand, LONG before we had the scriptures, the gifts were done away with because no mention is made of the gifts to the churches. Which is it sir?

Arguments from silence are notoriously unreliable. I can also argue that the reason the gifts were never mentioned is because they perfectly understood them when he taught and there was no need for an epistle to correct them. See in a bid to understand scriptures you have dug dip into the circumstances of the epistles. But am afraid you are missing at truth staring at you as you keep digging for 'deeper' significance of the text. Before you read between the lines, please read the lines


it is extremely CARNAL and it borders on blasphemy to impute purpose to Inspired epistles and on that basis to rank them as less significant. Paul taught in Corinthians some truths you won't find nowhere else because Holy Spirit wanted me to learn about them. So that lame and dumb theory of Corinthians being 'immature' so the epistles are irrelevant won't wash. He also taught love,faith and hope to this church the supposedly 'mature' doctrine

[size=16pt]1 Corinthians 3 King James Version (KJV)

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?[/size]

Always have this in hindsight when reading this book.

You have shot so many points off anywhere else but scriptures. Compact doctrines of men. GO back to the questions i asked you because it is waste of time repeating myself

The 120 did witness AFTER Pentecost but they NEVER witnessed in the supernatural tongues. I just showed you that Peter preached in Hebrews the very first sermon after the baptism of the Holy Spirit. What Bible do you use that records the use of tongue(s) in spreading the gospel?

I don't know all the languages of men so my ignorance don't reduce the gift of tongues in the present church to gibberish. You like those Jews of Acts 2 revile what you don't know nor have ever tasted. So sad

King james is my preferred version but I have access to just about ANY translation including those in Greek and Hebrews. So drop the unintelligent appeal to semantics and demonstrate in the ORIGINAL how tongue and tongues are chasms apart. Am waiting

shdemidemi:


Don't just stay here and argue, if I say a thing you do not agree with, pull ou your bible to prove me wrong.

I said witness is one aver what they know or what they have seen.

Did the 120 testify after they got empowered by the Spirit?


What language do you think they speak in today's churches when they go -rababababababarababbraba? Guess what I have done it before.

Take time to go check how king James use Unknown tongue for what the corinth Church spoke and tongues for what Paul and the 120 spoke.