1 Timothy 1:8, Expanded Bible (EXB)
8 But we know that the law [ the OT law of Moses] is good if someone uses it ·lawfully [legitimately; as God intended].

As promised, I'm starting this topic because of my promise to my brother Bidam in one of our conversation. Others are also welcome but please, let's discuss maturely. There can be "side left and upper cuts" but no harms meant and no insults please...

Many are the concerns of this thread: Bidam and some others who advocates keeping "some parts" of the Law believes when Apostle Paul cited references from the Mosaic Law, he validates the law or "some parts" of the law still in existence to Christians but I believe such Apostle of Grace completely dismissed all relationship with the Mosaic Law in Romans 7 and some other places.

Our opening text suggests there can be a wrong way of using the Law which is what is mostly\widely going on in our churches today. Some use the law only when they want to collect firstfruit, firstborn offerings, and some other things that are not practiced in the early church nor established by Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant. I have called Bidam to correction on the right applications of the Law. That is, Christ and His finished works is what is intended in the Law but he doesn't seems to see it that way in the light of scriptures. Rather, Bidam, like many churches, he teaches the law as obligations or obedience instead of seeing the law in the light of the NT revelations.

So, what do we do with scriptures that says: the law is spiritual, the law is holy and the commandments holy. What do we do with scriptures that says: Doesn't the law say the same thing? What do we do with all these scriptures that seems to still validate "some" aspects of the law while on the other hand, we believe we're not under the law but under Grace and the Apostle also wrote things that invalidates keeping the law (including the 10 commandments) for those under Grace because both can't co-exist. How do we, Christians understand\interpret those scriptures that some seems to validate keeping the laws while others abolished keeping the law? Does the Apostle(s) validates keeping the law when they quote from the law and enforce it on Christians as doctrines while they the whole law has been abolished? Can we, the Church mix the Grace of God with keeping the law? The church cannot continue to teach we're not under Law on one hand and on the other hand, we return to the law for some things. This is what Christ hates in revelation saying, you're neither cold nor hot, it is a Babylon doctrine in the church of Christ.

It was really 2 simple questions i asked you on the midas thread and that is are christians obligated to keep the weightier matters of matters of the Law in Mathew 23:23 and why should Paul used the Law of Moses to encourage christians to support minister, but you went all round posting lies against me. God is watching you.

Goshen360:
1 Timothy 1:8, Expanded Bible (EXB)
8 But we know that the law [ the OT law of Moses] is good if someone uses it ·lawfully [legitimately; as God intended].

As promised, I'm starting this topic because of my promise to my brother Bidam in one of our conversation. Others are also welcome but please, let's discuss maturely. There can be "side left and upper cuts" but no harms meant and no insults please...

Thanks for opening this thread so i can expose you errors once and for all.

Many are the concerns of this thread: Bidam and some others who advocates keeping "some parts" of the Law believes when Apostle Paul cited references from the Mosaic Law, he validates the law or "some parts" of the law still in existence to Christians but I believe such Apostle of Grace completely dismissed all relationship with the Mosaic Law in Romans 7 and some other places.

And what are those part of the Law bidam and others keep? The problem with you is that you keep making the same mistakes for so many years that i am tired of engaging you in worthless debates that consumes my time and that of others. I am wearied about your fixation on the law. You are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of Christ.

Our opening text suggests there can be a wrong way of using the Law which is what is mostly\widely going on in our churches today. Some use the law only when they want to collect firstfruit, firstborn offerings, and some other things that are not practiced in the early church nor established by Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant. I have called Bidam to correction on the right applications of the Law. That is, Christ and His finished works is what is intended in the Law but he doesn't seems to see it that way in the light of scriptures. Rather, Bidam, like many churches, he teaches the law as obligations or obedience instead of seeing the law in the light of the NT revelations.

Let's take tithing for instance because that's the real reason you had to open a thread to attack my liberty. There is NO SCRIPTURE that condemns tithing as a form of giving. There is liberty in Christ, people are free to express their givings in the form of tithes today. I won't be drawn into useless debates on this issue. My post is clear enough for anyone who is interested in my stand on the issue. And as for firstborn offerings, no where did i say that. The topic i opened was on child dedication, pls feel free to go through it, rather than the lies you peddle here. There was no where i advocated firstfruits for believers on this forum, pls you can also quote it, or we label you a LIAR here.

So, what do we do with scriptures that says: the law is spiritual, the law is holy and the commandments holy. What do we do with scriptures that says: Doesn't the law say the same thing? What do we do with all these scriptures that seems to still validate "some" aspects of the law while on the other hand, we believe we're not under the law but under Grace and the Apostle also wrote things that invalidates keeping the law (including the 10 commandments) for those under Grace because both can't co-exist. How do we, Christians understand\interpret those scriptures that some seems to validate keeping the laws while others abolished keeping the law? Does the Apostle(s) validates keeping the law when they quote from the law and enforce it on Christians as doctrines while they the whole law has been abolished? Can we, the Church mix the Grace of God with keeping the law? The church cannot continue to teach we're not under Law on one hand and on the other hand, we return to the law for some things.

I am waiting for you eisegesis on the issue.

This is what Christ hates in revelation saying, you're neither cold nor hot, it is a Babylon doctrine in the church of Christ.

This scripture you quoted is lifted off context and has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with the Law. Christ did not say He hate the law, Goshen said that. The so called "babylon doctrine" in church is not whether bidam and others tithe but it's about peddling errors to our teenagers to indulge in premarital sex before they are lawfully wedded. Thanks.

Well, I think where I stand on this issue is clear to most but I will like to add a few nuggets to the discourse. I happen to have a close friend who is of the Islam faith. A guy who I slightly think have a tad bit of sympathy for the fundamental islamic extremists, but nevertheless embarrassed by the barbaric and outright hideous way they make themselves heard.

One has to be careful in putting questions to a friend like this, so he does not wrongly assume you are being prejudicial. I asked him what he thinks the 'terrorists' are out to achieve. He replied, 'they want to establish an Islamic state where the people will be ruled by the Islamic law (sharia)'. My next question to my friend was if he can live in a system where such laws are imposed, he quickly replied with an emphatic 'NEVER'. He made it crystal clear to me that even him being a practicing muslim don't see himself surviving or living above such laws.

Having heard that it affirmed the whole essence of Christ and His passion. But some christians will also argue that the reason for Christ's death is to enable us uphold the law. My question to such christians is if they can survive in an environment where the law is imposed even with the acclaimed support of the 'Holy Spirit' to live without transgressing the law delivered to Moses.

The bible made it ever difficult for anyone to live without transgressing these laws when it says a failure in one equates to a failure in all. Who then want to be under the yoke of the law? It can only be a neo-pharisee or saducee. A sect popularly known during Christ ministry as hypocrites. Jesus purposely flouted their sabbath laws at every opportunity to prove how hypocritical they really were.

Many also fear a licentious, immoral and obscene practices if the law were to be set aside by christians. I think they underestimate the efficacy of the Word of the Holy Spirit (doctrine) so much that they think it can't lead to a life satisfactory to God. Alas, they would rather keep people under the yoke of the law for easy control forgetting that they also fall short and thus guilty to the law if put under the search light.

^^^ It is simple really and the issue is not what you are saying. I wonder why it is difficult for folks like you and Goshen to comprehend simple statements from scriptures. The law does not make us righteous before God.“For Christ is the termination of the Law (as Israel’s way of seeking to attain righteousness before God by doing its works) so that righteousness is (now) for all who believe (in the Christ whom God has raised from the dead and established as Lord).”

It means that God has brought an end to the futile attempt to attain righteousness with God by doing the works of the Law (Rom. 2:13; 3:19-
20; 7:7-12).

It does not mean that the Law has been abrogated or rendered totally useless like you and goshen are propagating. The Law is still valid as a way for Christians to live an upright and moral life in accord with God’s Spirit. Indeed, as Paul insisted previously, we do not nullify the Law
through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law” (3:31).

Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).

Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.

This is interesting.
What do we do with all those parts of the Law which try as you may have no MORAL elements in them? A good example is isolating women during their periods

Bidam:

Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.

Bidam:
^^^ It is simple really and the issue is not what you are saying. I wonder why it is difficult for folks like you and Goshen to comprehend simple statements from scriptures. The law does not make us righteous before God.“For Christ is the termination of the Law (as Israel’s way of seeking to attain righteousness before God by doing its works) so that righteousness is (now) for all who believe (in the Christ whom God has raised from the dead and established as Lord).”

It means that God has brought an end to the futile attempt to attain righteousness with God by doing the works of the Law (Rom. 2:13; 3:19-
20; 7:7-12).

It does not mean that the Law has been abrogated or rendered totally useless like you and goshen are propagating. The Law is still valid as a way for Christians to live an upright and moral life in accord with God’s Spirit. Indeed, as Paul insisted previously, we do not nullify the Law
through faith, “on the contrary, we uphold the Law” (3:31).

Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).

Thus, the law retains its role as a code of moral behavior, but loses its role as a way of attaining righteousness with God.

Now that you have the Holy Spirit, does it mean you are now incapable of telling a lie? Does it also mean the unbeliever e.g a muslim without the 'Holy Spirit' will always have to lie because he does not have the spirit?

I have come across many unbelievers who are morally upright and way better than a christian who supposedly have the Holy Spirit resident in them. How then do we explain the ability of the unbeliever to do what is deemed morally right?

You have also done what the bible never did, dividing the law into moral, sacrificial and all. You will not stop there if such logic is employed because you will certainly need to say Christ's death resulted in the abrogation of some things but some are yet valid. I am sure you will agree the bible never said a thing of that nature.

vooks:
This is interesting.
What do we do with all those parts of the Law which try as you may have no MORAL elements in them? A good example is isolating women during their periods

External rites like this are obsolete and should be discarded. I quoted Romans 13: 8-10, where did you see isolating women during their periods there? Moreso Love does no harm to it's neighbor does it? What do you understand by the spirit of the Law or the Law of the Spirit and the letters of the Law?

shdemidemi:


Now that you have the Holy Spirit, does it mean you are now incapable of telling a lie? Does it also mean the unbeliever e.g a muslim without the 'Holy Spirit' will always have to lie because he does not have the spirit?

An unbeliever is not a yardstick for judging a christian code of conduct but the Word of God. Yes a believer is INCAPABLE OF TELLING LIES. If he does it, he is to sought repentance.

I have come across many unbelievers who are morally upright and way better than a christian who supposedly have the Holy Spirit resident in them. How then do we explain the ability of the unbeliever to do what is deemed morally right?

Christ makes the believer righteous not the LAW.In the OT to know if you are righteous you must do the law, in the NT Christ makes us righteous but to ensure we remain so and not sin, we need to know the law of God so saying it is abolished is not true. How do you know the constitution of a kingdom without first reading the constitution? As for the gentiles who is morally upright, it is through his conscience he differentiate right from wrong and does by nature the things contained in the law since they are written in his heart.

You have also done what the bible never did, dividing the law into moral, sacrificial and all. You will not stop there if such logic is employed because you will certainly need to say Christ's death resulted in the abrogation of some things but some are yet valid. I am sure you will agree the bible never said a thing of that nature.

You oppose subdivision? Why then you subdivide dispensation. Because it is not expressly written in scriptures doesn't mean we cannot group them for easy clarity and understanding and ease of discussion. So does Christ death abolished LOVE which is a commandment contained in the mosaic law?

Who/what determines external from internal rites?

Bidam:
External rites like this are obsolete and should be discarded. I quoted Romans 13: 8-10, where did you see isolating women during their periods there? Moreso Love does no harm to it's neighbor does it? What do you understand by the spirit of the Law or the Law of the Spirit and the letters of the Law?

vooks:
Who/what determines external from internal rites?

My point is the ceremonial laws that forbid a menstruating woman from the house of God is/are no longer useful.

Your point is premised on accurately isolating 'ceremonial' laws of the 613 and discarding them. How do you go about this sir?
What if in the process you mistake non-ceremonial for ceremonial and you discard them as well?

Bidam:
My point is the ceremonial laws that forbid a menstruating woman from the house of God is/are no longer useful.

vooks:
Your point is premised on accurately isolating 'ceremonial' laws of the 613 and discarding them. How do you go about this sir?
What if in the process you mistake non-ceremonial for ceremonial and you discard them as well?

Yawn! The book of Hebrews makes it clear that various washings and physical sacrifices were done away.

The principles of the Law still applies. For example do you have intercourse with your wife when she is menstruating?

Laws such as stoning disobedient children (Lev 20:9) or not wearing garments of different fabric (Lev 19:19)are NEITHER sacrifices nor washings. Where in the NT were they abrogated?

The ONLY circumstance under which you should not touch your wife is when fasting and even then it should not be for extended period. Any other time is game

Bidam:
Yawn! The book of Hebrews makes it clear that various washings and physical sacrifices were done away.

The principles of the Law still applies. For example do you have intercourse with your wife when she is menstruating?

vooks:
Laws such as stoning disobedient children (Lev 20:9) or not wearing garments of different fabric (Lev 19:19)are NEITHER sacrifices nor washings. Where in the NT were they abrogated?

Stoning represent the penalty for disobedience...Jesus paid the penalty. The curse of the law is related to the penalty.(Gal 3:13). As for wearing of fabrics, the laws are written in the heart of the believers( law of the spirit) who doesn't follow the letters of the law legalistically(Heb 10:16).

The ONLY circumstance under which you should not touch your wife is when fasting and even then it should not be for extended period. Any other time is game

Do you sleep with your wife in her menses?

So if they are written in the hearts of believers, what is the need for dividing them? Ceremonial vs moral?
And how do I know whether what a believer is hearing in their heart is from the Spirit?
What if somebody hears that it is OK to keep slaves and beat them just not kill them (Ex 21:20)?

About my wife? Why do you care? That's below the belt. Don't go personal unless your brains start overheating and you have nothing to add.

Bidam:
Stoning represent the penalty for disobedience...Jesus paid the penalty. The curse of the law is related to the penalty.(Gal 3:13). As for wearing of fabrics, the laws are written in the heart of the believers( law of the spirit) who doesn't follow the letters of the law legalistically(Heb 10:16).
Do you sleep with your wife in her menses?

vooks:
So if they are written in the hearts of believers, what is the need for dividing them? Ceremonial vs moral?

Like i told shdemidemi if you had cared to read my post, for ease of understanding and clarity.

And how do I know whether what a believer is hearing in their heart is from the Spirit?

Read and Study the constitution(Bible) the manual for life. The Holy Spirit is the teacher of the Word of God.David said your word have i hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee.

About my wife? Why do you care? That's below the belt. Don't go personal unless your brains start overheating and you have nothing to add.

So what do you understand by principles drawn from the OT laws concerning hygiene? I think i told you that the principle applies didn't i?

You don't have ANY objective basis of picking what to follow out of the Law and what to discard. Period

There is NOTHING unhygienic about menstruation to warrant isolating women in this present age for 7 days.

Bidam:
Like i told shdemidemi if you had cared to read my post, for ease of understanding and clarity.
Read and Study the constitution(Bible) the manual for life. The Holy Spirit is the teacher of the Word of God.David said your word have i hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee.

So what do you understand by principles drawn from the OT laws concerning hygiene? I think i told you that the principle applies didn't i?

Matthew 15

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

Jesus expected these jews that accused him of breaking the law to also kill their disobedient childeren if they weren't hypocrites. Guess what,they bent the law just like Bidam will bend it today especially where he feels it is inconvenient.

I asked you if a christian can lie, you responded saying he should ask for forgiveness. What exactly does that translate to, if you had earlier said the Holy Spirit helps us not to do these wrong things? Is He failing at His job?

Bidam:


You oppose subdivision? Why then you subdivide dispensation. Because it is not expressly written in scriptures doesn't mean we cannot group them for easy clarity and understanding and ease of discussion. So does Christ death abolished LOVE which is a commandment contained in the mosaic law?

Dispensationalism was well documented in the teachings of Paul. Please show us where you learned we can divide these laws and yet decide what one Christ died for and the ones His death could not propitiate for.

vooks:
You don't have ANY objective basis of picking what to follow out of the Law and what to discard. Period

There is NOTHING unhygienic about menstruation to warrant isolating women in this present age for 7 days.

My post never talked about isolating women but you sleeping with you wife when she is menstruating. If you do, that's your business.

shdemidemi:
Matthew 15

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

Jesus expected these jews that accused him of breaking the law to also kill their disobedient childeren if they weren't hypocrites. Guess what,they bent the law just like Bidam will bend it today especially where he feels it is inconvenient.

I asked you if a christian can lie, you responded saying he should ask for forgiveness. What exactly does that translate to, if you had earlier said the Holy Spirit helps us not to do these wrong things? Is He failing at His job?

You seem to be using a noose to tie your neck here. Has Christ fulfilled the requirement of the law before The Holy Spirit was poured out on the gentiles? What seems to be so hard to comprehend in my post that Christians manifest God’s love and righteousness in harmony with the Ten Commandments’ moral principles (Romans 13:8-10)? A christian CANNOT LIE. IF HE DOES THAT HE IS CARNAL.

Leviticus 15:19-33

Of the fourteen verses, some pervert picked sexual relations to drive a point. Can you explain to us which of these Laws are moral or ceremonial?

Bidam:
My post never talked about isolating women but you sleeping with you wife when she is menstruating. If you do, that's your business.

shdemidemi:


Dispensationalism was well documented in the teachings of Paul. Please show us where you learned we can divide these laws and yet decide what one Christ died for and the ones His death could not propitiate for.

I asked about division. Where did Paul divide it? Because you are opposed to a resort to laws doesn't mean you can create your own laws for me. So, now there’s a law that says that we cannot subdivide these laws or that it is wrong to do so?

vooks:
Leviticus 15:19-33

Of the fourteen verses, some pervert picked sexual relations to drive a point. Can you explain to us which of these Laws are moral or ceremonial?

A circular argument. Refer to the Hebrews i gave you.

Bidam:
You seem to be using a noose to tie your neck here. Has Christ fulfilled the requirement of the law before The Holy Spirit was poured out on the gentiles? What seems to be so hard to comprehend in my post that Christians manifest God’s love and righteousness in harmony with the Ten Commandments’ moral principles (Romans 13:8-10)? A christian CANNOT LIE. IF HE DOES THAT HE IS CARNAL.

I asked two questions that need straight answers if you truly understand what you are talking about-

The question is, what part of the law did Jesus fulfil, could it be all or a part? If it is a part, what are the ones yet to be fulfilled?


I thought you alluded to the fact that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to enable us fulfil the law, if this is true why do christians still fall short of the requirement of the law?

shdemidemi:


I asked two questions that need straight answers if you truly understand what you are talking about-

The question is, what part of the law did Jesus fulfil, could it be all or a part? If it is a part, what are the ones yet to be fulfilled?

Care to explain this scripture in Colossians 2:13-14, in which Paul states,

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross".
So what was the hand writing of requirements that was against us?

I thought you alluded to the fact that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to enable us fulfil the law, if this is true why do christians still fall short of the requirement of the law?

I am not alluding anything here oga..Look at the scripture here.
"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery', 'You shall not steal', 'You shall not bear false witness', 'You shall not covet', and if there is any other commandment, all are summed up in this saying, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'. Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:8-10). . If Christians falls short of it, it simply means they are carnal or babies and it doesn't remove their salvation.

Bidam:
Care to explain this scripture in Colossians 2:13-14, in which Paul states,

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross".
So what was the hand writing of requirements that was against us?.

THE LAW IS THE BOND OF DECREE AGAINST US.

The question was not answered bidam.

The question is, what part of the law did Jesus fulfil, could it be all or a part? If it is a part, what are the ones yet to be fulfilled?

Bidam:
I am not alluding anything here oga..Look at the scripture here.
"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery', 'You shall not steal', 'You shall not bear false witness', 'You shall not covet', and if there is any other commandment, all are summed up in this saying, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'. Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:8-10). . If Christians falls short of it, it simply means they are carnal or babies and it doesn't remove their salvation.

Romans 13:3 was not advocating for the law in any form so don't dwell on that.

why do christians still fall short of the requirement of the law even with the presence of the Holy Sirit whom you say His job is to help us observe the laws left unfulfilled by Jesus.

shdemidemi:


THE LAW IS THE BOND OF DECREE AGAINST US.

The question was not answered bidam.

The question is, what part of the law did Jesus fulfil, could it be all or a part? If it is a part, what are the ones yet to be fulfilled?

Already answered by quoting a scripture, that Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the law by making us righteous. So what's your point really?

Romans 13:3 was not advocating for the law in any form so don't dwell on that.

I didn't quote Roman 13 :3, I QUOTED Romans 13 :8-10 to make you understand that those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).

why do christians still fall short of the requirement of the law even with the presence of the Holy Sirit whom you say His job is to help us observe the laws left unfulfilled by Jesus.

Sin is the transgression of the Law, we know the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers cannot lie like the example you gave. Jesus had dealt with the sin nature on the cross, A CHRISTIAN CANNOT SIN BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HIS NATURE.
1 John 3:9,

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NASB)
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." (NKJV)

1 John 5:18,

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him." (NASB).

Like i repeated earlier even if he does sin, it is an ACT not his nature hence he is CARNAL. IT DOES NOT REMOVE HIS SALVATION.

1 John 1:8-10

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NASB)
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NKJV)

Bidam:

Already answered by quoting a scripture, that Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the law by making us righteous. So what's your point really?

When exactly did quoting scripture become a way of answering questions, when you and I know how men have interpreted scriptures even to their own destruction.

Please be humble enough to say you don't understand a thing or you don't know it, It does not make you less a man or a christian. Now if you have an answer please share, if not accept the fact you don't understand that bit and you might need to look more into it.

The question is, what part of the law did Jesus fulfil, could it be all or a part? If it is a part, what are the ones yet to be fulfilled?

Bidam:
I didn't quote Roman 13 :3, I QUOTED Romans 13 :8-10 to make you understand that those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law ( Rom 8:4), and by loving one another Christians fulfill the Law ( Rom13:8-10).
Sin is the transgression of the Law, we know the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers cannot lie like the example you gave. Jesus had dealt with the sin nature on the cross, A CHRISTIAN CANNOT SIN BECAUSE THAT IS NOT HIS NATURE.
1 John 3:9,

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NASB)
"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." (NKJV)

1 John 5:18,

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him." (NASB).

Like i repeated earlier even if he does sin, it is an ACT not his nature hence he is CARNAL. IT DOES NOT REMOVE HIS SALVATION.

1 John 1:8-10

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NASB)
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NKJV)

See how you contradict yourself, on one hand Bidam cannot sin and on the other hand he can't say he is without sin. Is the Holy Spirit doing a bad job of making you keep the law of Moses? Just answer the question and stop talking salvation cos that isn't the issue at the moment..

[quote author=shdemidemi post=28436386]

[s]When exactly did quoting scripture become a way of answering questions, when you and I know how men have interpreted scriptures even to their own destruction. [/s]

[s]Please be humble enough to say you don't understand a thing or you don't know it, It does not make you less a man or a christian. Now if you have an answer please share, if not accept the fact you don't understand that bit and you might need to look more into it.
[/s]
The question is, what part of the law did Jesus fulfil, could it be all or a part? If it is a part, what are the ones yet to be fulfilled?

Yawn..already answered read my post above.

See how you contradict yourself, on one hand Bidam cannot sin and on the other hand he can't say he is without sin. Is the Holy Spirit doing a bad job of making you keep the law of Moses? Just answer the question and stop talking salvation cos that isn't the issue at the moment..

I quoted scripture don't be dumb and silly, if you do not understand it ask. Does the scripture contradict itself?

Bidam:
Yawn..already answered read my post above.

Where is the list of things repealed by the effect of Christ sacrifice and the list of ordinances left for us to observe? I trust you will understand what is required now

Bidam:
I quoted scripture don't be dumb and silly, if you do not understand it ask. Does the scripture contradict itself?

My question isn't about salvation, or if the bible contradict or not... My question is from the statement you had earlier made-

Bidam:

Those who have been made righteous by faith and have thus received the holy Spirit are now able to fulfill the requirements of the Law

All I ask is how we then make a mess of these laws if the Holy Spirit's job is to make us do these works of the law??

Put clearer, I am sure you know you are no where near being perfect if you check your life against those things required by the law, even with your stern believe that the Holy Spirit is resident in you, Why is this so?

shdemidemi:
Where is the list of things repealed by the effect of Christ sacrifice and the list of ordinances left for us to observe? I trust you will understand what is required now



My question isn't about salvation, or if the bible contradict or not... My question is from the statement you had earlier made-

All I ask is how we then make a mess of these laws if the Holy Spirit's job is to make us do these works of the law??

Put clearer, I am sure you know you are no where near being perfect if you check your life against those things required by the law, even with your stern believe that the Holy Spirit is resident in you, Why is this so?

OK i have heard you could you kindly step aside.i want to learn from goshen not you