Papist:

So was the high priest commiting sacrilege in the Holy of Holies?

The point, my brother in Christ is that they were operating under a different covenant to what we have.
I hv shown the difference in a previous post.

Bobbysworld28:

The point, my brother in Christ is that they were operating under a different covenant to what we have.
I hv shown the difference in a previous post.

I respect your point of view. But can you prove from the New Testament that the use of images was abolished?

Bobbysworld28:

The point, my brother in Christ is that they were operating under a different covenant to what we have.
I hv shown the difference in a previous post.

I respect your point of view. But can you prove from the New Testament that the use of images was abolished? Because it seems all the ancient Churches whether Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch or Alexandria and the East Syriac Churches use and venerate images. It is only the Protestants who came around just 500 years ago who hate images. Does it not make you wonder whether the Prostentants are the ones who are wrong?

Papist:

I respect your point of view. But can you prove from the New Testament that the use of images was abolished? Because it seems all the ancient Churches whether Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch or Alexandria and the East Syriac Churches use and venerate images. It is only the Protestants who came around just 500 years ago who hate images. Does it not make you wonder whether the Prostentants are the ones who are wrong?

I have wondered so and these points pop up:
If Christ brought direct access to God, wht could then be d purpose of these images? None in my view.
At least it should be on record that either Christ or his apostles would have used it for once. They did not! Dt kind of suggests that it was brought in much later.
It will amount to belittling the ministry of the Holy Spirit and his influence in our lives if we esteem man-made objects to replace him.
Pls read John 14-16. Those three chapters detail out his ministry.

Imagine this scenario: u lose an object u hold dear. Then u resort to praying TO saint Anthony to look for it when u obviously have a guide and comforter in the Holy Spirit who is with u forever. Does dt not amount to idolatry in dt man takes the place of God to u?

Papist:

I respect your point of view. But can you prove from the New Testament that the use of images was abolished?

There is no proof it was upheld since there was a change in priesthood.
Remember that the presence of God resided in the Holy of Holies back in d former covenant. Right now however, we all carry his presence about.
Frankly, if u can conduct a research into the differences btwn the two covenants, u will better appreciate ur rights in Christ, who u r in christ and d kind of privilege bestowed on u

Bobbysworld28:

There is no proof it was upheld since there was a change in priesthood.
Remember that the presence of God resided in the Holy of Holies back in d former covenant. Right now however, we all carry his presence about.
Frankly, if u can conduct a research into the differences btwn the two covenants, u will better appreciate ur rights in Christ, who u r in christ and d kind of privilege bestowed on u

Those two covenants are not contradictory. The Old prefigures the New while the New fulfils the Old. See the Old Covenant is full of symbolisms fulfilled in the New. For example Eve is fulfilled by Mary, David's kingdom is fulfilled by Christ's kingdom, manna is fulfilled by the Eucharist, circumcision is fulfilled by Holy Baptism, animal sacrifices are fulfillef by the eternal sacrifice of the Messiah etc. No contradiction just fulfillment.

Bobbysworld28:

I have wondered so and these points pop up:
If Christ brought direct access to God, wht could then be d purpose of these images? None in my view.
At least it should be on record that either Christ or his apostles would have used it for once. They did not! Dt kind of suggests that it was brought in much later.
It will amount to belittling the ministry of the Holy Spirit and his influence in our lives if we esteem man-made objects to replace him.
Pls read John 14-16. Those three chapters detail out his ministry.

Imagine this scenario: u lose an object u hold dear. Then u resort to praying TO saint Anthony to look for it when u obviously have a guide and comforter in the Holy Spirit who is with u forever. Does dt not amount to idolatry in dt man takes the place of God to u?

I'm sure that it has already been explained to you that statues and icons don't take the place of God otherwise God would not have commanded their use in the Jewish temple.

Papist:

Those two covenants are not contradictory. The Old prefigures the New while the New fulfils the Old. See the Old Covenant is full of symbolisms fulfilled in the New. For example Eve is fulfilled by Mary, David's kingdom is fulfilled by Christ's kingdom, manna is fulfilled by the Eucharist, circumcision is fulfilled by Holy Baptism, animal sacrifices are fulfillef by the eternal sacrifice of the Messiah etc. No contradiction just fulfillment.

I like the way u look at it. Manna was not part of the covenant. It is just what God used to feed his ppl. If not, what about quail? Lol
Circumsition is not fulfilled by baptism, haba! There is now circumsicion of the heart.
The old covenant was a shadow of the new. Just research it:


Judaism had a temple, in christianity u r d temple
Judaism involved physical circumsicion, in christianity u talk about circumsicion of the heart
Judaism involved sacrifice of lambs continually, but Jesus is once and for all sacrifice in christianity
Judaism had priests from a certain tribe, but we are all priests in christianity.

These are the major shifts. The two covenants are not d same at all

Papist:

I'm sure that it has already been explained to you that statues and icons don't take the place of God otherwise God would not have commanded their use in the Jewish temple.

Still u rave on abt d Jewish temple. So where is d command for the christian temple (ur body)?
R u a Jew?

Bobbysworld28:

There is no proof it was upheld since there was a change in priesthood.
Remember that the presence of God resided in the Holy of Holies back in d former covenant. Right now however, we all carry his presence about.
Frankly, if u can conduct a research into the differences btwn the two covenants, u will better appreciate ur rights in Christ, who u r in christ and d kind of privilege bestowed on u

Thanks my brother. I'm so grateful of your friendliness. This shows the Christ living in you. However i would love to differ with you a little. I would love you to read a little more about the ancient worship of God and the fact that it has always been liturgical and therefore sacrificial and requiring a priest and a victim. In the old covenant the victim was sacrificed over and over in a bloody manner. However the Victim of the new covenant is Christ and he gave for us one eternal sacrifice on calvary. This one eternal sacrifice is made present without blood or pain everytime a priest celebrates the last supper. To fully understand this concept my brother I suggest you read more about the concept of eternity. I'll briefly try to explain here. In the concept of eternity and the Eternal God the Lord's sacrifice is not a past event but an eternal event. The celebration of the Passion and Ressurection therefore still needs a sacerdotal Priest just like the sacrifices of the old covenant priests except that the new covenant sacrifice is vastly superior. It is therefore my humble undetstanding that the use of images in liturgy is still applicable. Pax Christi.

Bobbysworld28:

Still u rave on abt d Jewish temple. So where is d command for the christian temple (ur body)?
R u a Jew?

My brother in Christ it is my understanding that the Christian faith is built on the foundation of the Jewish faith. Are we Christians not supposed to be the seed of Abraham? We are not opposed to the Jewish faith but we are a fulfillment of the promises made to the followers of the Jewish faith.

Papist:

Thanks my brother. I'm so grateful of your friendliness. This shows the Christ living in you. However i would love to differ with you a little. I would love you to read a little more about the ancient worship of God and the fact that it has always been liturgical and therefore sacrificial and requiring a priest and a victim. In the old covenant the victim was sacrificed over and over in a bloody manner. However the Victim of the new covenant is Christ and he gave for us one eternal sacrifice on calvary. This one eternal sacrifice is made present without blood or pain everytime a priest celebrates the last supper. To fully understand this concept my brother I suggest you read more about the concept of eternity. I'll briefly try to explain here. In the concept of eternity and the Eternal God the Lord's sacrifice is not a past event but an eternal event. The celebration of the Passion and Ressurection therefore still needs a sacerdotal Priest just like the sacrifices of the old covenant priests except that the new covenant sacrifice is vastly superior. It is therefore my humble undetstanding that the use of images in liturgy is still applicable. Pax Christi.

One step at a time: who r the priests of the new covenant?

Papist:

My brother in Christ it is my understanding that the Christian faith is built on the foundation of the Jewish faith. Are we Christians not supposed to be the seed of Abraham? We are not opposed to the Jewish faith but we are a fulfillment of the promises made to the followers of the Jewish faith.

gal3.7-9.kjv Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

We r Abraham's seed according to faith. In dt he displayed uncommin faith for his time. Scripture above shows dt Abraham was justified by Faith and not by works.
Isnt dt so different from the old covenant (justification by works)?
U get y we r described as Abraham's seed? because of faith (in Christ)

gal3.11-16.kjv But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Bobbysworld28:

Bros, only d high priest goes into the holy of holies once in a year. Stop carrying on as though everyone had access to it.

it seems you are forgetting that only a viel separates the holies of holies from the outer temple. A curtain is what separated it dear, and all in the tempel face toward the holies of holies with its images. Jesus didn't run into the tempel to distroy its images.

Jesus did not use images and u hv been unable to disprove this fact with one verse.

my dear, you never proved that Jesus didn't use images so i find it funny u claim dat is a "fact".
Secondly Jesus did use in a temple with image and nowhere does the bible say he went and distroyed the images.

I showed u severally hw he prayed and where he prayed. There was no rosary neither was there a scapula.

he didn't hold a bible either yet that haven't stopped your pastors from holding a bible when praying.

Bobbysworld28:

Furthermore, there is nothing absolutely wrong with intercessory prayer at all. When however u cede ur priestly function of communicating directly with God and depend absolutely of intercession, there is a problem.

this is another ridiculous arguement, where did you hear that catholics depend absolutely of intercession. This is an untruth.

Catholic pray to God and ask for intercession as scriptures support both!

Furthermore, while Paul asked the brethren to pray for him, throughout the whole Bible we cannot find a place where departed brethren have or can interceed for anyone. Therefore using this as an excuse is quite incredible if not utterly ridiculous.

so you are unaware that those in heaven can offer our prayers to God? Then open your scripture and read rev 5:8.

Remain blessed.

Papist:

So was the high priest commiting sacrilege in the Holy of Holies?

this is a good question, did God command the high priest to go and commit idolatry? Is God encouraging sin?

Ubenedictus:


this is another ridiculous arguement, where did you hear that catholics depend absolutely of intercession. This is an untruth.

Catholic pray to God and ask for intercession as scriptures support both!



so you are unaware that those in heaven can offer our prayers to God? Then open your scripture and read rev 5:8.

Remain blessed.

rev5.8.kjv And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Question: r saints only in Heaven?

eph1.1.kjv Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

php1.1.kjv Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

col1.1-2.kjv Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


From the 3 scriptures above, can u see d REAL meaning of saints? Obviously these people called saints are brethren in the cities dt Paul was writing to. WE ARE THE SAINTS OF GOD!

Trailblazer1:
Like I said earlier, argument only makes a man of different view hardened and defensive of his views.
If Jesus and all the holy apostles who are an example unto us didn't call on any dead believer to pray or interceed for them why should the catholic church invent this unbiblical practice?

the catholic church didn't invent anything, it is the bible in rev 5:8 that tells us that those in heaven can interceed, it is the book of hebrew that shows that we all belong to the same assemble and the same feast.

It is from the preaching of the apostles that the earliest Christians learnt that those above can and do interceed. It is a biblical and apostolic practice.

Do we follow the apostolic practices or the invented Catholic tradition?

you are the person following the unbiblical practice of rejecting intercession began by Calvin

If you think Mary's motherhood will persuade God to Change his mind towards you maybe you should try EVE the mother of all mankind

what a silly comparism you are comparing somebody who the bible say was "overshadowed by the power of the mosthigh and the holy spirit came over her", the once favoured amongst other, the one through who God became man and saved you, you are comparing her to d person whose sin is the reason we are all in this condition?

My dear stop insulting the work of God.

Even the bible says "ye are gods".

At the death of Christ, the veil of the temple which covers the Holies of holies, preventing all and sundry from Gods symbolic presence in the ark of covenant was rented(torn), giving all and sundry an unlimited access into Gods presence.
The only condition was stated by Jesus when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one cometh unto the father but by me" NB: Mary was never in the context. Why should I trade this open cheque given to me through the death of Christ by engaging Mary? If I needed Mary to intercede for me as practised by the old Testament priests, then I don't need Christ and his death would be in vain.

I urge you my dear brethren with:
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

this unfortunately makes little sense to d discussion at hand.

Bobbysworld28:

rev5.8.kjv And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Question: r saints only in Heaven?

eph1.1.kjv Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

php1.1.kjv Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

col1.1-2.kjv Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


From the 3 scriptures above, can u see d REAL meaning of saints? Obviously these people called saints are brethren in the cities dt Paul was writing to. WE ARE THE SAINTS OF GOD!

you just confirmed my point!

The 24 elders in heaven were offering God the prayers of the "saints" who are on earth!

So yeah those in heaven offer our prayers to God!!! Do you get it now?

Ubenedictus:


this is a good question, did God command the high priest to go and commit idolatry? Is God encouraging sin?

U have touched on the point of Judaism before. Hw u r able to mix the two dispensations is baffling. The priesthood (as well as the high priest) has changed.
heb7.12.kjv For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

So I ask again: where is d High priest commanded in the new covenant to have an image made?

Bobbysworld28:

I have wondered so and these points pop up:
If Christ brought direct access to God, wht could then be d purpose of these images? None in my view.

much in my view as was also the view of early Christians, the images were there to remind of the presence of God, of the example of the heroes of faith, as a visual bible, a means of teaching! Anongst other things.

At least it should be on record that either Christ or his apostles would have used it for once. They did not! Dt kind of suggests that it was brought in much later.

this is a silly assumption!
The bible never said that it contains a record of each and everything Jesus and the apostles did and say! The gospels and epistles usually addressed a few and specific topic! Nowhere does the bible say "the apostles did not use images and illustrations, this is an assumption you made without proof.

It will amount to belittling the ministry of the Holy Spirit and his influence in our lives if we esteem man-made objects to replace him.

this is again a useless arguement because nobody replace God with anything.

Pls read John 14-16. Those three chapters detail out his ministry.

Imagine this scenario: u lose an object u hold dear. Then u resort to praying TO saint Anthony to look for it when u obviously have a guide and comforter in the Holy Spirit who is with u forever. Does dt not amount to idolatry in dt man takes the place of God to u?

oh, i lose an object and i ask the intercession of my brother anthony, one of the guys in that great assembly, that didn't replace God, no it doesn't because all anthony will do is relate prayers to God on my behalf.

Ubenedictus:


you just confirmed my point!

The 24 elders in heaven were offering God the prayers of the "saints" who are on earth!

So yeah those in heaven offer our prayers to God!!! Do you get it now?

Help urself, my guy! It did not say they were praying for u, neither is Mary and any of ur 'patron' saints there. The passage never even said the saints prayed TO the elders.
From the scripture, apparently the prayers of the saints are collected in vials (vials with the elders) before God's throne.
It has done little to establish ur claim sir!

Ubenedictus:


much in my view as was also the view of early Christians, the images were there to remind of the presence of God, of the example of the heroes of faith, as a visual bible, a means of teaching! Anongst other things.

this is a silly assumption!
The bible never said that it contains a record of each and everything Jesus and the apostles did and say! The gospels and epistles usually addressed a few and specific topic! Nowhere does the bible say "the apostles did not use images and illustrations, this is an assumption you made without proof.


this is again a useless arguement because nobody replace God with anything.



oh, i lose an object and i ask the intercession of my brother anthony, one of the guys in that great assembly, that didn't replace God, no it doesn't because all anthony will do is relate prayers to God on my behalf.

If the Bible did not record Jesus using images, is it not sufficient dt u dont use it?
Jesus who was always in God's presence did not use image nor did he ask us to.

Oh and u prefer to pray to brother Timothy than talk with the Holy Spirit who's communion is with u forever? Talk abt stickler for idolatry!

U r a great guy but ur selective reasoning is tiresome.
I am out of this topic. Cheers

Bobbysworld28:

One step at a time: who r the priests of the new covenant?

Those priests who consecrate by the power of Christ the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ as an offering to the Father.

Bobbysworld28:


gal3.7-9.kjv Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

We r Abraham's seed according to faith. In dt he displayed uncommin faith for his time. Scripture above shows dt Abraham was justified by Faith and not by works.
Isnt dt so different from the old covenant (justification by works)?
U get y we r described as Abraham's seed? because of faith (in Christ)

gal3.11-16.kjv But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I don't see how these scriptures you are quoting disagree with what I wrote.

Papist:

Those priests who consecrate by the power of Christ the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ as an offering to the Father.

No sir. Every child of God is a priest unlike the misconception on ground.
rev5.10.kjv And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
1pe2.9.kjv But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Bobbysworld28:

No sir. Every child of God is a priest unlike the misconception on ground.
rev5.10.kjv And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
1pe2.9.kjv But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

There is a sarcedotal priesthood which Martin Luther arbitrarily removed to justify his heresy. That Priesthood is irreplaceable because it was given to us by Jesus through the Apostles. And then there is the Priesthood of all believers.

Papist:

There is a sarcedotal priesthood which Martin Luther arbitrarily removed to justify his heresy. That Priesthood is irreplaceable because it was given to us by Jesus through the Apostles. And then there is the Priesthood of all believers.

Prove it biblically. If this were true, Paul couldnt hv been an apostle much more commision Timothy and gave Timothy a guideline to follow. Do well to read d book of Timothy, it will guide u appropriately

Bobbysworld28:

If the Bible did not record Jesus using images, is it not sufficient dt u dont use it?

the bible actual records Jesus in a temple that had images and he didn't distroy them instead he said d temple was to b a house of prayer! That is enough proof that he didn't condemn it! All the christian church the apostles found have image from earliest time to this day that is enough proof they didn't condemn it either.

Jesus who was always in God's presence did not use image nor did he ask us to.

yet he still went to d temple wit images and said it was to be a house of prayer. I follow the example of Jesus not that of calvin.

Oh and u prefer to pray to brother Timothy than talk with the Holy Spirit who's communion is with u forever? Talk abt stickler for idolatry!

paul knew abt d holyspirit and yet still asked others for prayers. I follow his example.

Bobbysworld28:

Prove it biblically. If this were true, Paul couldnt hv been an apostle much more commision Timothy and gave Timothy a guideline to follow. Do well to read d book of Timothy, it will guide u appropriately

Paul was ordained by the Apostles after his Damascus moment. I would like to think that you knew this.

Papist:

Paul was ordained by the Apostles after his Damascus moment. I would like to think that you knew this.

U r yet to prove d other priesthood u talked about.
Still waiting sir

Which Priesthood? The one that the Lord Jesus conferred on the Apostles like when he gave them the power to forgive sins? And when he told them to offer the bread and wine as His Body and Blood? It should be obvious from the scriptures.