Christians alike often make a big deal out of the story in Genesis 22 about Yahweh commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac but then, just as Abraham is about to perform the holy deed, stopping the slaughter with the explanation "This was just a test." Hustlers for holiness never mention the more primitive case of Jephthah's daughter - a case where Yahweh receives the life of an innocent girl.


What i dont understand is, if this is the god of the old testament that is cruel and loves blood, then is it still the same god of the new testament that is so kind and loving?

Are there 2 gods or is it just this one god that mutates from evil to good? Does god change his mind and ways anyhow especially when it comes to killing?


The story of Jephthah's daughter is recorded in the eleventh chapter of Judges, beginning with verse 29:

Then the spirit of Yahweh came upon Jephthah and he passed through Gilead and Manaseh… Jephthah made this vow to Yahweh: 'If thou will deliver the Amonites into my hands, then the first creature that comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return from them in peace shall be given to Yahweh; I will offer that as a whole-offering.' So Jephthah crossed over to attack the Ammonites, and Yahweh delivered them into his hands… But when Jephthah came to his house in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him with tambourines and dances but his daughter, and she his only child… When he saw her he rented his clothes and said, 'Alas, my daughter, you have broken my heart… I have made a vow to Yahweh and I cannot go back.' She replied, 'Father, you have made a vow to Yahweh; do to me what you have solemnly vowed, since Yahweh has avenged you on the Ammonites, your enemies. But, father, grant me this one favor. For two months let me be, that I may roam the hills with my companions and mourn that I must die a virgin.' … At the end of two months she came back to her father, and he fulfilled the vow he had made; she died a virgin


Deuteronomy 21:18-21: "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the Elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place: And they shall say unto the Elders of his city, This our son is stubborn, and rebellious, he will not obey our voice: he is a glutton and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die."

Deuteronomy 20:11-18 should be scribed upon the Primary school-class room walls:

When you advance on a city to attack it, make an offer of peace. … If it does not make peace with you but offers battle, you shall besiege it, and Yahweh your God will deliver it into your hands. You shall put all its males to the sword, but you may take the women, the dependants, and the cattle for yourselves, and plunder everything else in the city. You may enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemies which Yahweh your God gives you. That is what you shall do to cities at a great distance, as opposed to those which belong to nations near at hand. In the cities of these nations whose land Yahweh your God is giving you as a patrimony, you shall not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites - as Yahweh your God commanded you, so that they may not teach you to imitate all the abominable things that they have done for their gods and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God.


Thou Shalt Kill

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto Yahweh only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21: 20-21 And if a man smite his slave or his slavegirl with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished: Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money. (This one may take a bit of puzzling out on its own, and perhaps it should be mounted beside one of the commandments that presupposes slavery.)
Exodus 22:2 If a burglar is caught in the act and is fatally injured, it is not murder; but if he breaks in after sunrise and is fatally injured, then it is murder.


Leviticus 24:13-16: Yahweh spoke to Moses and said, Take the man who blasphemed out of the camp. Everyone who heard him shall put a hand on his head, and then all the community shall stone him to death. You shall say to the Israelites: When any man whatever blasphemes his God, he shall accept responsibility for his sin. Whoever utters the Name Yahweh shall be put to death: all the community shall stone him; alien or native, if he utters the Name, he shall be put to death.

Christianity is not based on any of the Old testament scriptures you quoted

KunleOshob:

Christianity is not based on any of the Old testament scriptures you quoted

always the lame excuse. . we are talking about the evil actions of the christain god here. . .deal with. . . .

mazaje:

always the lame excuse. . we are talking about the evil actions of the christain god heredeal with. . . .

No lame excuse, i am not one of those christians that would argue with you that the bible is the "undiluted word of God" i believe a lot of the Word of Men found it's way into the bible hence the seeming inconsistenices. Personally i don't think a number of the old testament books should have been included in the bible cos a lot of the things there are anti-christian and it causes a lot of confusion in the church. Some pastors even use some of these writings to extort and intimidate the flock contrary to the teachings of christ.

@poster

The law is for the Ecclesia Nation of God at the time.

Backslider:

@poster

The law is for the Ecclesia Nation of God at the time.

mazaje:

roflamo

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I am just as perplexed as you and the laughter almost made me get an instant query !

ecclesia nation my foot!

So in other words god flip flops, while it is permissible to murder, kill, maim and destroy humans (Lest i forget human sacrifice) in the old testament, the same god can realise that killing is not good for the new isreali nation abi?

What a Mind Job you christian lots are!

Adam Brody:


roflamo

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I am just as perplexed as you and the laughter almost made me get an instant query !

ecclesia nation my foot!

So in other words god flip flops, while it is permissible to murder, kill, maim and destroy humans (Lest i forget human sacrifice) in the old testament, the same god can realise that killing is not good for the new isreali nation abi?

What a Mind Job you christian lots are!

allah is a mass murderer too. . as davidylan will say when confronted with this embarassing issue. .

@poster
The full Bible is the full and undiluted Word of God - including murders and blood shedding in the Old Testament.

Truth is revealed to those whom God wills. God is kind and merciful! That the Son of God was born to a carpenter as a father in a manger & was led by the Holy Spirit to be tempted of the devil and ultimately died on a Cross defies the understanding of the carnal mind. the carnal thinks "this is cray & makes no sense". This is indeed not suprising. Only God can cause anybody to believe & be saved (1 Cor 1:30); exactly the same way, you look at the OT and say "wow God is wicked"; this is but ur carnal mind & brain in action - you really need to ask yourself "what do i know beyond the physical plane?"; "am i really wise enough to interprete the actions of Jehova?"



@mazaje
I must say I love ur anti-christian posts and attempts to undermine christianity.

I can take you on  .

"Christianity is not based on any of the Old testament scriptures you quoted"

It seems to me that the most important part of the old testament for Christian pastors is the part which says you must give them 10% of your income.

The God of the old testament is plain evil, egotistical, and an immoral, genocidal mass murderer!

http://www.evilbible.com/

Thank God for the New Testament.

Obalende:

@poster
The full Bible is the full and undiluted Word of God - including murders and blood shedding in the Old Testament.

Truth is revealed to those whom God wills. God is kind and merciful! That the Son of God was born to a carpenter as a father in a manger & was led by the Holy Spirit to be tempted of the devil and ultimately died on a Cross defies the understanding of the carnal mind. the carnal thinks "this is cray & makes no sense". This is indeed not suprising. Only God can cause anybody to believe & be saved (1 Cor 1:30); exactly the same way, you look at the OT and say "wow God is wicked"; this is but ur carnal mind & brain in action - you really need to ask yourself "what do i know beyond the physical plane?"; "am i really wise enough to interprete the actions of Jehova?"

What have you said now that makes sense?

You say god is kind and merciful and pretend you didnt read all the killings and murders commited by god as illustrated above!

You say he was born by a carpentar in a manger! Big deal, kids get thrown into gutters and were abandoned at birth in dustbins! So there is nothing new and sympathetic about being born by a carpentar in a manger!

You said he was led by the Holy Spirit to be tempted of the devil! Why would the holy spirit lead the so called son of god to be tempted by the devil? what was he supposed to gain despite the fact the bible had revealed satan to be god's sworn enemy! That was either a dumb foolish move by the holyspirit or jesus or just plain hogwash of a story!

Still staying with that belloni of a story, how did the devil carry jesus to the highest mountain in the world to show him the whole world? Show me the highest mountain in the world where you can climb and see the whole world? Thats why scientists continue to riddicle the errancy and fallacies of the bible because of daft comparisons like this that make no sense!

Okay, talking about jesus being cruxified and dying for our sins! Why does everything about god have to be Human sacrifice, blood, killings and death? It makes no sense that a god or a father loved his son so much that he allowed him die to save others! Tell me who willingly watches and allows his child to die to save another person? Even those in the military who have signed their death warrants always hope to come back alive and not go into war to become sacrificial lambs to save a nation, unlike jesus who had to die to save our sins!

One more thing, who begged him? Its not as if the whole world was begging him to die to save others? What kind of god, creates humans and knows their future and says he made man perfect and continues to wipe them out from generation to generation until he is no longer blood thirsty and sends his own son to come and die to save people from sinning but apparently his death has been a waste because the sins are getting more vicious in modern day time with nuclear bombs and transfer of deadly diseases!

Are we now expecting god's only daughter Jesusina very soon to come and die too to save us from this peculiar kind of sin too?, psssf!

Finally you talk about the carnal mind only reading things that are not spiritual in nature to understand! Absolute arrant crap!

You guys print millions of these bibles to be read by kids and adults alike! You print them in hundreds of languages to be read the way it is. You infiltrate the bible with so much gore, blood and killings but when i point it out, my carnal mind is working and it shouldnt be read in a literal way except in a spiritual way, but when your quoting "John 3:16", it should be read in a literal way and thats how we are to read it without the guidance of any spirit or a carnal mind!

You guys have abeit to an extent succeded with your propaganda of brainwashing the world with this awesome mind job, but no matter how you spin it, god murdered, killed, destroyed, flooded, accepted human sacrifice, commited pogrom and genocide and should be readily tried at the Nurumberg war crimes tribunal with his mates charles taylor and sloban milosevic!

I don't post on forums but this caught my attention. I'm not a Pentecostal so don't worry i Will take you to task. but from what i see Adam brody u are just like them. u post verse without knowing the historical context of it.

Adam Brody:

Christians alike often make a big deal out of the story in Genesis 22 about Yahweh commanding Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac but then, just as Abraham is about to perform the holy deed, stopping the slaughter with the explanation "This was just a test."

uh actually you are wrong that story is actually a symbolic meaning of Christ sacrifice on the cross. in which God (God the father) send his son to be a sacrifices for the sins of mankind. It was more then a test it was a future symbolic meaning. This the Orthodox view of it not pentecostal but i will end it here God never intended for him to kill his son, sure it was a test of his faithbut it oes far more deeper than that

What i don't understand is, if this is the god of the old testament that is cruel and loves blood, then is it still the same god of the new testament that is so kind and loving?

Are there 2 gods or is it just this one god that mutates from evil to good? Does god change his mind and ways anyhow especially when it comes to killing?

it is the same God. But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand so i wont go deep into this. The Ot isn't about God killing people it is just that you only focus on that since thats all u may wan to see. If anything people are killing more than God is. there are many instances in which God is merciful the story of Jonah and the people of the Nineveh

The story of Jephthah's daughter is recorded in the eleventh chapter of Judges, beginning with verse 29:

Then the spirit of Yahweh came upon Jephthah and he passed through Gilead and Manaseh… Jephthah made this vow to Yahweh: 'If thou will deliver the Amonites into my hands, then the first creature that comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return from them in peace shall be given to Yahweh; I will offer that as a whole-offering.' So Jephthah crossed over to attack the Ammonites, and Yahweh delivered them into his hands… But when Jephthah came to his house in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him with tambourines and dances but his daughter, and she his only child… When he saw her he rented his clothes and said, 'Alas, my daughter, you have broken my heart… I have made a vow to Yahweh and I cannot go back.' She replied, 'Father, you have made a vow to Yahweh; do to me what you have solemnly vowed, since Yahweh has avenged you on the Ammonites, your enemies. But, father, grant me this one favor. For two months let me be, that I may roam the hills with my companions and mourn that I must die a virgin.' … At the end of two months she came back to her father, and he fulfilled the vow he had made; she died a virgin

agian not reading the verse in its historical context. First of all if you notice God never ask for anthing it was jephtha acJephthah his own. Secondly he never gave his daughter as a human sacrifice. His daughter was given up into religous sreligioussort of like a temple virgin. During those days if parents gave their daughter up or religous servics was custom that their daughter remain unmarried and virgins. Hence his daughter saying she will die a virgin. This is why is it cause him grief because she was his only child and if she didn't get a husband his blood like ends with him he will have no decedents a huge thing back then and still is today. In an honor base culture like that Japhtah would never break his vow whether God ask for it or not his honor was on the line in the society. Isrealite law never primit human sacrifice since it goes agaist the torah. Nothing in that verse said he killed her. U must know the culture(which u don't) to understand the verse.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21: "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the Elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place: And they shall say unto the Elders of his city, This our son is stubborn, and rebellious, he will not obey our voice: he is a glutton and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die."

this has nothing to do with human sacrifices please stay on topic and stop ranting

Deuteronomy 20:11-18

When you advance on a city to attack it, make an offer of peace. … If it does not make peace with you but offers battle, you shall besiege it, and Yahweh your God will deliver it into your hands. You shall put all its males to the sword, but you may take the women, the dependants, and the cattle for yourselves, and plunder everything else in the city. You may enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemies which Yahweh your God gives you. That is what you shall do to cities at a great distance, as opposed to those which belong to nations near at hand. In the cities of these nations whose land Yahweh your God is giving you as a patrimony, you shall not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites - as Yahweh your God commanded you, so that they may not teach you to imitate all the abominable things that they have done for their gods and so cause you to sin against Yahweh your God.

agian nothing to do with human sacrifice but i will explain this to you. I can see u really are picking verses because if u read all of the torah u would know what this means. The Israelites were on the defensive since the came out of egypt as slaEgyptany of the nations u see listed still saw them that way and had no problem attacking them U expect them to sit there are being killed?. At fisrt the Isfirsttes were to make a gesture of peace at fisrt inordefirstain orderr wiavoide invading armies, if their emiemies refuse peace(which most of them did) then the israelites were justified to fight back and defend themsleves. Sounds reasonable to me. Also i will explain the whole"taking women" part it was not custom to kill women during war since in that culture the blood line went hrough men. Most importantly the israelite men never rape the women. If there were attracted to them they had to marrying them not even then they could has sex with the woman. She had a period of mournig in which man was not allwed to touch her for a month. only then he could consumate the marriage. But if he didn't like her or she didn't like him after that then he had to let her go and let her do as she wish. he was never to treat her like a slave or sell her. Look it up in deuteronomy Deuteronomyhere are other verses concerning this but i can't remember them now. Considering the time this was a huge culture shock. Normaly in other nations the invading armies would just rape the women and keep them as slaves never before was such a thing done. so this was a big deal since this was never done before. Please next time know you theolgy and bibical history before u add our own twisted meaning to the stories in the torah. Because it says a few chapters before that many nations wanted to take them as slaves. U expect them not to fight back

Thou Shalt Kill

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto Yahweh only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21: 20-21 And if a man smite his slave or his slavegirl with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished: Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money. (This one may take a bit of puzzling out on its own, and perhaps it should be mounted beside one of the commandments that presupposes slavery.)
Exodus 22:2 If a burglar is caught in the act and is fatally injured, it is not murder; but if he breaks in after sunrise and is fatally injured, then it is murder.

again nothing to do with human sacrifice u are just ranting. and u do know though shall not kill really has to do in the context of murder right

Leviticus 24:13-16: Yahweh spoke to Moses and said, Take the man who blasphemed out of the camp. Everyone who heard him shall put a hand on his head, and then all the community shall stone him to death. You shall say to the Israelites: When any man whatever blasphemes his God, he shall accept responsibility for his sin. Whoever utters the Name Yahweh shall be put to death: all the community shall stone him; alien or native, if he utters the Name, he shall be put to death.

agian nothing to do with the topic i will not go deep in this because i'm tired of typing but u need to understand the term blasphemed in this context i recomend bible commentary By NT wright.(he is smart he isn't a pentecostal)

uh actually you are wrong that story is actually a symbolic meaning of Christ sacrifice on the cross. in which God (God the father) send his son to be a sacrifices for the sins of mankind. It was more then a test it was a future symbolic meaning. This the Orthodox view of it not pentecostal but i will end it here God never intended for him to kill his son, sure it was a test of his faithbut it oes far more deeper than that

Rubish! Pure Rubbish! It was a future test in what way when it was blatantly stated that he asked him to sacrifice his only son to him. Beside what kind of barbaric and devilish test is that? What is the humour to be found by testing a man to kill his son to pledge his loyalty to him? Why try and make abraham commit murder to appease him?

And you call that a test? What if Abacha was to tell all his loyalists to kill their sons as a way of appeasing him to show their loyalty? What kind of supposedly intelligent loving god offers to accept or even make a silly joke about killing a child to appease him?

There is nothing spiritual, historical or deep to read from that passage. It was just plain lunacy as far as am concerned!

Why dont you read this passage to your 5 year old brother slowly and allow him to use his brain to decipher what it really means!

A sacrifice is asacrifice and a human sacrifice is no more worse than occults and riualist brewing in gory blood for their satisfaction.

it is the same God. But this has nothing to do with the topic at hand so i wont go deep into this. The Ot isn't about God killing people it is just that you only focus on that since thats all u may wan to see. If anything people are killing more than God is. there are many instances in which God is merciful the story of Jonah and the people of the Nineveh

I am happy you said it was the same blood thirsty god in the o.t and the same god in the n.t

I focus on the killings of god because left to you apologists of the bible, you seem to ignore or pretend those passages dont exist and god did not kill anyone but you are quick to proclaim how merciful and kind he is. Double Speak in my own dictionary. Lay everything out for people to know. The good, bad and ugly! But you choose to concentrate on the good alone. There is nothing holy about a bible that screams about murders, killings, flood, turning a person into salt and a host of ludicrious things.

Anyway i understand. If pastors were to point out the catastrophies of the bible, they will be throwing away their daily bread from gullible people whom they rely on from selling salvation for a token!

agian not reading the verse in its historical context. First of all if you notice God never ask for anthing it was jephtha acJephthah his own. Secondly he never gave his daughter as a human sacrifice. His daughter was given up into religous sreligioussort of like a temple virgin. During those days if parents gave their daughter up or religous servics was custom that their daughter remain unmarried and virgins. Hence his daughter saying she will die a virgin. This is why is it cause him grief because she was his only child and if she didn't get a husband his blood like ends with him he will have no decedents a huge thing back then and still is today. In an honor base culture like that Japhtah would never break his vow whether God ask for it or not his honor was on the line in the society. Isrealite law never primit human sacrifice since it goes agaist the torah. Nothing in that verse said he killed her. U must know the culture(which u don't) to understand the verse.

This is a typical christian way of practisng insertionism when you begin to insert words or phrases that werent in the original verse! Where did the passage state that she would be given up as a temple virgin? Mind you i would paste the verse again and point out your obvious errancy:

Jephthah made this vow to Yahweh: 'If thou will deliver the Amonites into my hands, then the first creature that comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return from them in peace shall be given to Yahweh; I will offer that as a whole-offering

What does offering anything to god in the old testament as an offering mean?

Besides why should a god that knows the future, still test jephthah on who ever comes out of his door of his house when he obviously knew it as going to be his daughter? Either he knew or he didnt know and if he knew, why put him through the trauma? Besides, everything and everyone that was to come out of his house was a human being, not goats, sheeps and camels! So why is he demanding human labour or a slave or a personal human sacrifice in exchange for winning a battle?


Your tying your self in knots here saleh trying to justify the atrocities of god and claiming it to be gods kindness and love! No propaganda whatso ever can erase that fact!

@sahel lady
thanks for that

@ Adam
I understand where you are coming from.

The Bible will not make sense to you except that passage or verse is revealed (and this is the key word here). Revelation is a function of the spirit of man and not of the brain. Get me

The author (Christ Jesus) described it as the "Word" and "life" not as theories and stories meant to be consumed in the flesh. Paul the apostle says "we did not come to you in excellency of speech" (in other words not by eloquence) "but by the demonstration of the Spirit and power" (in other words what we are telling you is more than mere words).

Greek translations, theories, theology, critical thinking and argument will not help. Only revelation can  help you.

Adam, please stop trying to send God on guilt trips, He knows the end from the beginning.

@ Adam
I mentioned the Lord's history as a Man not for you to sympathise but to show you that His history cannot be believed by your own self (how can a whole Messiah be born in a manger? DOESNT MAKE SENSE!!!); but to those whom God decides it will make sense to, it will make sense - we pray for you that someday it will make sense .

@ Adam
again, in the old testament, Israel (who went to many wars) is the Church of Jesus Christ, oil is the anointing, Egypt is representative of sin, etc - these things are not learnt from books they are revealed by God Himself as you read.

Blood is for atonement because God pre-decided that blood will be used for atonement and that the final atonement will be made by the Lord on the Cross. This is not a doctrinal position, it is an eternal fact i.e. if you believe it, its true, if you don't beleive it, its nonetheless true. Suppose you fell from a tree and got angry with force of gravity and now decided that force of gravity is not real; now jump down from a building and you will surely die! In the same way, suppose you decide that the Blood of Christ is not the atonement for the New Covenant in Christ, it still is!

@OBALENDE

everything you have said makes no sense at! Read the title of this post and comment on it! What revelation do i need to know that God murdered and killed alot of people? Why should you need the spirit to know why god killed a whole generation of people ( and as you biblical gurus put it "THE WHOLE WORLD" through a flood? Why would a god demand the death of abraham's son as a test if he isnt a repugnant person to think of such a thing at first?
What did god gain by wiping the whole first born of eygpt? What did the little infants that were still suckling their mothers breast do to moses and god?

Abeg your clutching unto straws with all this psycho babble!

Accept god is a killer and commands people to kill at will and we are square and stop all this nonsense talk of anointing, jesus, revelation, spirit etc that has nothing to do with the topic at hand!

mazaje:

always the lame excuse. . we are talking about the evil actions of the christain god heredeal with. . . .

Exactly, they only follow the old testament when its convenient for them. You can't pick and choose here.

@ Adam
You need to understand that God is God and has ultimate sovereignity.

My comment on your topic is that God pre-decided that sacrifices are acceptable to him.

God's love is as perfect as His wrath; God may indeed order people to be killed, but He has His reasons. However, He commands you not to kill because you are man and He is Go

You need revelation because the Bible makes sense to only saints who have been saved through grace. These saints read these same passages with a different revealed understanding that the unbeliever cannot see. Example:

"And the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt" - reading it with brain power you get literal meaning. However, while the literal meaning is still correct, the spritual meaning is that the Church of Jesus Christ came out living in sin.

I hope you are genuinely asking these questions and no just trying to ridicule christianity.

We hope you will become a saint soon .

Hope this answers your questions.

I hope you are genuinely asking these questions and no just trying to ridicule christianity.

I am not asking any question because i am rational enough to know what i read in black and white. God kills Q.E.D!

And yes why wont i ridicule a religion that dwells on falsehood and propaganda to whip its followers into line?

*Reads the thread and bursts out laughing*

Adam Brody:

I am not asking any question because i am rational enough to know what i read in black and white. God kills Q.E.D!

And yes why wont i ridicule a religion that dwells on falsehood and propaganda to whip its followers into line?

So ignore the God then.

why not leave it to the christians and their God?

Whether Christians lie or not its OUR God - so please leave us with our God since you cannot be convinced that God is merciful & kind.

But I thank you for your indeed quite rational argument.

Very soon, you will become Saint Adam Broody - this is our hope

I see you becoming the pastor of a church. Paul was like you before he became saved.

Rubish! Pure Rubbish! It was a future test in what way when it was blatantly stated that he asked him to sacrifice his only son to him. Beside what kind of barbaric and devilish test is that? What is the humour to be found by testing a man to kill his son to pledge his loyalty to him? Why try and make abraham commit murder to appease him?

And you call that a test? What if Abacha was to tell all his loyalists to kill their sons as a way of appeasing him to show their loyalty? What kind of supposedly intelligent loving god offers to accept or even make a silly joke about killing a child to appease him?

There is nothing spiritual, historical or deep to read from that passage. It was just plain lunacy as far as am concerned!

Why don't you read this passage to your 5 year old brother slowly and allow him to use his brain to decipher what it really means!

A sacrifice is asacrifice and a human sacrifice is no more worse than occults and riualist brewing in gory blood for their satisfaction.

If it's rubish then please u tell me what it means and quote a prominate bibilcal scholar that would agree with you. Don't give some sort of emotional response. I want an intelligente convastion if i want emotion i will watch a soap opera or read some romance noval. Every scholar even some aganostic one says it is a future sybolic meaning to Christ onthe cross in conection to the trinity and God head. If it was menat o be a sacrfice why God stop him. The reason why you can't see it is
1 u know nothing about theogly and bibcal history to begin with
2 u read  the bible like some nutcase pentecostal
3 u simple jst do want to think outside of you lilttle box
theogly just like philoshphy can not be easily understood by 5 years old so that is a very stupid thing to say

I am happy you said it was the same blood thirsty god in the o.t and the same god in the n.t

I focus on the killings of god because left to you apologists of the bible, you seem to ignore or pretend those passages don't exist and god did not kill anyone but you are quick to proclaim how merciful and kind he is. Double Speak in my own dictionary. Lay everything out for people to know. The good, bad and ugly! But you choose to concentrate on the good alone. There is nothing holy about a bible that screams about murders, killings, flood, turning a person into salt and a host of ludicrious things.

Anyway i understand. If pastors were to point out the catastrophies of the bible, they will be throwing away their daily bread from gullible people whom they rely on from selling salvation for a token!

Ha its seem to mean like most atheist you are angry at something that you don't even believe exist. So basicly u done one of the bigest no nos in debate which straying from the topic. Ok buddy let me tell u a little secret.I don't prentend like those verses don't exist but u see unlike you i could  explain it without going on some of emotional rant.  know what it means. U act like a pentecostaland just put verse out there without even understandig it. And last time i check the chunk of the OT is about the pophents calling israel back to God. Most of he killngs in the bible were do't by the israelite without God saction. Stop reading the bile like thekoran. Many things in the OT are historical acounts of the deeds of the hebrews. Last time i checked as well there was only one flood and one perso turn into slat which has a meaning as wel(something u don't know) so how can the bible be all about that when it only happen once. Sorry u are so full of emotion that it blinds your own supose intelligence.

This is a typical christian way of practisng insertionism when you begin to insert words or phrases that werent in the original verse! Where did the passage state that she would be given up as a temple virgin? Mind you i would paste the verse again and point out your obvious errancy:

Ha ha now this is funy when you can't prove ou point you gotta bring out the whole insertionism bull crap. Buddy i aint no pentecostal so i don't look at the text like one. Anyone who knows anything about bibical history(this dosn't include you) knows that you must know the tradition and culture within the historcal conextwhen reading the OT. Not evrything is laid out in the OT many things have o be explain in it's cultural context(this is where tradiation and even archaeology comes in). even atheist know this. Quote a bibcal scholar that would agree with you. U can post the verse all u want(u reposting the verse doesn't prove me wrong) but since you want to play word for word, where does it say explicitly that he killed her? Theogly is not just picking a verse and put a meaning to it eveything revovles around culture and history n the OT. If u know anything u would atleast know that. It isn't an insert it is an explaination but it same to me u little brain can see the difference. please shut off pentecostal mode

What does offering anything to god in the old testament as an offering mean?

u idiot there are many instances in which prophets say "i will offer myself to the Lord' Does that mean they light a fire and burn themselves ofcourse not. It also means up in service.

Besides why should a god that knows the future, still test jephthah on who ever comes out of his door of his house when he obviously knew it as going to be his daughter? Either he knew or he didnt know and if he knew, why put him through the trauma? Besides, everything and everyone that was to come out of his house was a human being, not goats, sheeps and camels! So why is he demanding human labour or a slave or a personal human sacrifice in exchange for winning a battle?

Fisrt of al u are funny the verse u quote is when jepthah made his vow before he problem with his daugter. when he made the vow he was expecting to do a ritual animal scarfice hence he made that vow. It still never said he killed her. So u haven't prove your point. So my explainition still is correct she was giving up in service to the lord and remain a virgin and unmarried durring her reglious servies.Since it was required at the time for women who profrom religous servives remain virgins. If he killed her than the hebrew would kill him since it went against the law. Thats why it says she died a virgin. HE NEVER KILLED HER so there was o truma. it doesn't say that U don't undesrtand the culture at all. The only time that hebrews practice human scrafice is when they strayed from God and sacrifice their children to the Cananite god Baal. Secondly if u notice God  never ask for anything  in an honor base culture he made that vow all on his own,  Stop reading the bible like the KOran or like a pentecostal.

Your tying your self in knots here saleh trying to justify the atrocities of god and claiming it to be gods kindness and love! No propaganda whatso ever can erase that fact!

LOL how am i tying myself in a knot when i provided a rational correct explaination u just choose to ignore it. U just assume that u know it all when really u don't. If u are going to have something against a faith atleast know it inside and out. this isn't islam buddy theology is far more difficult. By the way where have i said anything about kinness and love ha. Emtional ranting makes people look so stupid hey atleast u ignored my last point because there s no way u can run around that. U are just on some emotional rant talking bull crap about propaganda when u don' even know anything about basic theolgy. No one here is spreading propaganda u nut case. Ifu know so much about christain thought why not name a few very well know bibcal scholars. (and i know u can't) Please next time act intelligent and stop it with the emotional rants. If u are looking for a good covo i will give it but don't give me emotion in return i can't stand that.

I am not asking any question because i am rational enough to know what i read in black and white. God kills Q.E.D!

And yes why wont i ridicule a religion that dwells on falsehood and propaganda to whip its followers into line?

Uh no u don't undesrtand what the hell u are reading that is very clear lol. There is no black and white when it comes to the bible or God. Even philophers would say that whether atheist or theist.  u already shown u don't understand what u are reading u are just like a pentecostal put up one or 2 verse without reading he entire chapter or not understanding the historical and cultural context.
about being rational.  Ha U know the majoity of the deaths in he 20th century were cause be athestic regimes. How funny people like u ignore that.  Does Mao and pol pot right a bell. So u believe in that same rational thought that develop the theory of race in which germans set up death camps in southern africa experianting on people and massaging skull during the late 19 century. The same "rational" thought in which black men in the 30s and 40s were perpously given STDs keep in isoltaion just to see if it has the same effect on them as whites. The same "rational" thought that said blacks were less than human which was (suported by (thiesit at the time). The same "rational" thought in which Mao belived that during the cultural revolution in china he had people killed for just having old bows and arrows in their house. LOL ha people like you are far from rational. It funny how u atheist love to bring up wars in the name of religoin but yet ignore the deaths cause by atheistic beliefs and regimes themselves.

Besides if u are so rational why are u so angry at a being u don't belve exist. As a matter of fact in atheisti  thought is that their is no such thing as right or wrong good or evil. Even Nietzsche admitted this which is why he was so depressed. So basicly you can't complain about good and evil right, or wrong whether it be chriatinity islam etc. because in your world view there is no such thing

I don't know why christians take it upon themselves to defend Judaism(old testament) when our faith was revealed to us in the new testament. Even Jesus christ himself discredited prophets that came before him.

John 10:8:
8All others who came [as such] before Me are thieves and robbers, but the [true] sheep did not listen to and obey them.

This is a typical christian way of practisng insertionism when you begin to insert words or phrases that werent in the original verse! Where did the passage state that she would be given up as a temple virgin? Mind you i would paste the verse again and point out your obvious errancy

that is why you need to know the culture of that time. the old testament weren't written as an instruction book for us, they weren't even written as an instruction book for them. it is a collection of their history. and while ebing written it is written in the assumption that it is for the jews and the jewish culture. the author is not going to give a side note as : she really won't die she'll just be given as a temple virgin. the author did not write it in assumption that we would one day pick it up and read. it is written to a people that know their cultrue. a jew at that time reading it wouldn't come to the same conclusion that you did. he would understand how it is the girl would die a virgin, he would understand that the girl would be given to the temple of God.

Just like if I were to stand in front of an american and tell her my mother beat me, which i did, here's the story.

One night I was up really late watching T.V. and my mother caught me. SHe decided to teach me a lesson and beat me. I went to school the next day and was in gym class and my classmates saw a mark on me while I was changing. They asked me what happened and I told them my mother beat me (I just got to the U.S. and didn't know anything about their culture and law on beating children). Thet immediately reported it to the guidance counselor who then contacted child protection services. They wanted to take me away from my mother. Point of the story, in america they assume if you beat your child you are trying to harm her or possibly kill her. In Nigeria it is the right thing to do as this is seen as a way of correcting the child.
In order for my classmates to understand what I meant, they had to understand the culture. You as a Nigerian automatically knew that when I spoke of my mother beating me, I didn't mean it in the sense of her trying to kill or cause harm to me. You know this because you know the culture, so you automatically know what I mean. I don't have to start explaining it to you with side notes. But I will have to explain it to an american with side notes.

It is the same thing with the old testament, the reader assumes it will be read by Jews and especially those living at that time. So to him he doesn't have to have a side note explaining the jewish culture.

I don't know why christians take it upon themselves to defend Judaism(old testament) when our faith was revealed to us in the new testament. Even Jesus christ himself discredited prophets that came before him.

bcus if we don't listen to the old testament the new testament will be untrue. the old is the new concealed and the new is the old revealed. Jesus Christ did no such thing. He did not discredit Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, and more. He spoke of those "prophets" who have turned to gods themselves, who no longer listened to God. REMEMBER the Jews weren't always faithful to God, the Old testament should very much be paid attention to by Christians, it gives us a graphic picture of God's wrath.

KunleOshob:

I don't know why christians take it upon themselves to defend Judaism(old testament) when our faith was revealed to us in the new testament. Even Jesus christ himself discredited prophets that came before him.

John 10:8:
8All others who came [as such] before Me are thieves and robbers, but the [true] sheep did not listen to and obey them.

that is so a catholic and prostant way of think inf it is foolish. Christianity is just a universal form of judaism that why we must leran about the wriitens in the OT. Without the OT the the relgion is incomplete. Before the NT canon was produce what did u think the early christains read?

that is why you need to know the culture of that time. the old testament weren't written as an instruction book for us, they weren't even written as an instruction book for them. it is a collection of their history. and while ebing written it is written in the assumption that it is for the jews and the jewish culture. the author is not going to give a side note as : she really won't die she'll just be given as a temple virgin. the author did not write it in assumption that we would one day pick it up and read. it is written to a people that know their cultrue. a jew at that time reading it wouldn't come to the same conclusion that you did. he would understand how it is the girl would die a virgin, he would understand that the girl would be given to the temple of God.

Although i don't agree with the whole insturction book thing since there are many universal principals in the OT but atlesat thereis one person here who understand that many things in the OT have many histocial and cultural meaning that many peole wont pick up so easliy Something that adam"the angry atheist" will never understand

Reading all these long windy defences is enough to make me go nuts and go on a killing spree like God!

Adam Brody:

Reading all these long windy defences is enough to make me go nuts and go on a killing spree like God!

fisrt of all it isn't a defense but an explaination since i assume u were looking for that then i find out u want to rant. You just can't understand anything because u know nothing about biblcal theolgy or philosophy and you are too emotional. Ur ignorance is so clear. Now u want to act arrogant when u don't understand or can't prove your point. Shut eyes if you want. Last time i checked u have a long post so offcoursce the explaintions and rsponse will be long u idiot. Such stupidity. Like i said before you in a sense have no right to say anything because it the atheistic worldview there is no such thing as good and evil ,right or wrong. Read Friedrich Nietzsche who said this himself and he is consider to be one history's best atheist philophers. So u speaking about good or bad is a contridication to your world view. Atleast unlike u i can read the best of the best of people represnting a worldview different from my own and actully know their names when u can evcen name one christain philospher or theologian(sorry creflo dollar aint one). If u going to have something agaist a belief atleast know it inside and out or keep your mouth shut

This is a shame. . . . christains are quick to point out that mohammed and allah are mass murderers who did a lot of evil in the koran and haddith. . . babyosisi was shamelessly ponting out the killings that prophet mohammed ordered his cohorts to execute in the koran in another thread to completely discredit him and allah by declearing them as evil savages .how blind and delusional can one be? you christains never fail to amaze me. . imagine babyosisi calling prophjet mohammed out on his massacares. . has she ever read the bible at all. . or is this the new low of delusion? what is the difference between prophet mohammed, moses, joshua, ezekiel, aron, hosea, jeremiah, david and all the other lair, rapist, land grabbers and mass murderering prophetsin the bible?

Most of the responses here are completely ridiculous. . . i will be back to show you deluded and blind christains what a stupid and ridiculous monster you biblical god is. . .

Ignorance is deadlier than any virus. Bible says "Wisdom is the principal thing with all your getting get understanding"
If God wants to drink peoples blood he doesn't have to ask for anyones permission before he does so, there are thousand
ways for Him  to do that.
@topic,
If you have a bible i advise you to read it from Matthew to Revelation, if you then have any question on human sacrifice except
for the ultimate price that the Lord Jesus paid on the cross at Calvary please let me know immediately. Till then i rest my case.

kola oloye:

Ignorance is deadlier than any virus. Bible says "Wisdom is the principal thing with all your getting get understanding"
If God wants to drink peoples blood he doesn't have to ask for anyones permission before he does so, there are thousand
ways for Him to do that.
@topic,
If you have a bible i advise you to read it from Matthew to Revelation, if you then have any question on human sacrifice except
for the ultimate price that the Lord Jesus paid on the cross at Calvary please let me know immediately. Till then i rest my case.

what do you mean by matthew to revalation? ohh you are now playing the new testament card abi. . i thought the same god that carried out all those evil deeds in the old testament is still the same god in the new testament?

mazaje:

This is a shame. . . . christains are quick to point out that mohammed and allah are mass murderers who did a lot of evil in the koran and haddith. . . babyosisi was shamelessly ponting out the killings that prophet mohammed ordered his cohorts to execute in the koran in another thread to completely discredit him and allah by declearing them as evil savages .how blind and delusional can one be? you christains never fail to amaze me. . imagine babyosisi calling prophjet mohammed out on his massacares. . has she ever read the bible at all. . or is this the new low of delusion? what is the difference between prophet mohammed, moses, joshua, ezekiel, aron, hosea, jeremiah, david and all the other lair, rapist, land grabbers and mass murderering prophetsin the bible?

Most of the responses here are completely ridiculous. . . i will be back to show you deluded and blind christains what a stupid and ridiculous monster you biblical god is. . .

Fisrt of all no ne here is talking about islam, go to te muslim form for that.  Jeremiah Ezekial and Hosea never klled or order the death of anybody.  jermeiah spoke about the ivasion of isael.Joshua wasn't a prophet but a judge. arron wasn't a prophet but a priest and david wasn't a prophet but a warrrior king many of the OT wrriting are histical accounts you can't read them like you would read the Koran. This shows how much you know like i told adam if u want to hate a religon of belief atleast know it inside and out. And please point out the responses that are so ridiculous beacuse i gave a rational and historical explaintions for it.