So, i've spent the last 4 months or so grooming myself in JSE and now i'm thinking of delving further into J2EE. I've heard lots of discouraging comments about how cumbersome and complex and sanity threatening J2EE can be so I thought I'd post this topic to ask anyone who has a fair experience in J2EE to shed some light on the complexity. Do you think its too soon for me to start that, if not what online resources would you recommend for a J2EE beginner.

Thanks

quick question, how accomplished are those people making the discouraging comments? there-in, you will find your answer.

Just start learning. With time you will master the complexity and u will be able to churn out the code u want fairly quickly

logica:

how accomplished are those people making the discouraging comments? there-in, you will find your answer.

best answer!, Enterprise Java has been mystified Purely due to Ignorance. For books, Google could be of help, better still if you've got an FTP acct, i could upload some for you!After a While,Explore some Enterprise Frameworks! Welcome to Enterprise!

J2EE can be as simple and as complex as you want to make it. Like others said, just hit google and explore. In a nut shell, developing J2EE applications means you break the application down into components according to the functions each perform. It can be a very simple MVC application or it can involve a number of frameworks. Again, there is lots of info out there.

How relevant is J2EE in the Nigerial market. was into EJB (3.0) and JWS not quite long ago, but was discouraged from furthering as i heard most businesses have now moved on to light-weight frameworks and dont depend on J2EE particulary EJB. is it worth doiing the SCBCD 5.0 and SCDJWS?.

I'd like to know the answer to that question too. I wonder how much enterprise level J2EE applications are being developed in Nigeria. From the other theads I have read. it does not seem like a whole lot. How can one get a job in these technologies in Nigeria?

Shimao:

How relevant is J2EE in the Nigerial market. was into EJB (3.0) and JWS not quite long ago, but was discouraged from furthering as i heard most businesses have now moved on to light-weight frameworks and don't depend on J2EE particulary EJB. is it worth doiing the SCBCD 5.0 and SCDJWS?.

What is J2EE used for?

J2EE is very relevant in the Nigerian market, so much so that a whole bunch of .NET apps are being migrated to J2EE (this is not hearsay, I am actively involved).

Several banks (I am sure of Access bank) have J2EE apps deployed, even though the apps may have been purchased from India. They still need maintenance, and look to recruiting local talent. Same applies to several insurance companies (I cannot divulge names at this point but I know at least 1 that has an app that even involves the EJB tier). Also several WASP/VASP (Wireless Application Service Providers/Value Added Service Providers) make use of J2EE in the deployment of services.

I am not a fan of EJBs, but EJB 3.0 is OK. It has taken a lot of ideas from OR/M frameworks like Hibernate (POJOs and the like), and simplified the development of EJBs.

@Shimao,
The lightweight frameworks you speak of are still mostly J2EE related. J2EE as I am sure you are aware is multi-tier. You have the client-tier (which could include anything from desktop applications to web-interface frameworks such as Struts, JSF, Wicket, etc), middle-tier (which could be EJBs or OR/M like Hibernate or Spring; the list is endless) and then the back-end (which is mostly your database server). The lines blur a little where each tier ends and the next tier starts.

The point is, J2EE is component-based, and a well designed J2EE application will allow you to easily substitute components in each tier without affecting the other components/tiers (loose coupling). It's like making sure your roof does not collapse simply by changing the windows and doors of your house. That is the work of a good architect. I am sure the lightweight frameworks you speak of are J2EE related, but they may simply be substitutes (EJB substituted by Hibernate) or extensions (simple JSPs substituted by Struts or JSF). Note that a J2EE application does not necessarily use EJBs. Read up more on J2EE on the sun website.

logica:

J2EE is very relevant in the Nigerian market, so much so that a whole bunch of .NET apps are being migrated to J2EE (this is not hearsay, I am actively involved).

@logica : na wa o !, On what ground are u guys moving .NET apps 2 J2EE.

the money you save from licensing alone is worth it. not to talk of a huge cache of free/open-source tools available in Java.

.NET gained ground a while back because corporations always got fidgety with free/open-source applications in general due to the notion that such are not usually good quality solutions and are less secure, but they have eased up now especially when you consider that many financial institutions such as banks in the US (BOA - Bank of America for instance) whose very survival is dependent on their security system employ these tools.

i think a combination of .Net and J2EE can be very good for some enterprise apps. especially those that are desktop based

What Open Source tools do you claim Bank of America's Security depends on please? I would like to know what open source tool BOA is supposedly using.

I didn't say the "security" is based on open-source frameworks. I said they have been apprehensive about open-source frameworks because they are supposedly not good quality or have poor security. Some or most of BOA's website is based on Struts (which of course is open-source). If you ask what security BOA's website is based on, it appears to be SAS platform.

logica:

the money you save from licensing alone is worth it. not to talk of a huge cache of free/open-source tools available in Java.

@logica: That is not true.  What are u licensing in dot net. Dot net is a free technology.  All the developer tools on the platform has a free express version.
Companies have deployed a lot of applications using express version of MS-SQL 2005 for the past 3 years and there has been no complaints from the clients

Wont u pay for softwares developed in Java too or is everything free ? Finnacle was designed using Java technology , are banks getting it for free ?

logica:

.NET gained ground a while back because corporations always got fidgety with free/open-source applications in general due to the notion that such are not usually good quality solutions and are less secure,

@logica : Lets quote sources when we put forward a fact. That statement is not true at all ,

Kobojunkie:

What Open Source tools do you claim Bank of America's Security depends on please? I would like to know what open source tool BOA is supposedly using.  

I wonder oh My Brother !  

All the developer tools on the platform has a free express version.
From the above, I really don't need to say much. So because the express version is free, that makes it possible to develop enterprise applications for free? What are you talking about?

I recently tried to use a tool called GPAC, especially MP4Box and the OMA DRM functionality. I had to compile the GPAC tool because the developers only provided the source with no binary downloads. They recommended VC++ 6.0 Enterprise Edition as they had not tried .NET, but I couldn't get VC++ 6.0 Enterprise Edition, so I first tried using VC++ 2008 Express Edition. I got loads of errors in compilation, and then found that there were several headers not included in the Express Edition. Then VC++ 2005 Express Edition was recommended and I got similar results, even though the compilation went much further than with 2008. It was suggested that I tried the Enterprise Edition but I never got around to it. The moral of the story is, Express Edition is missing loads of components that makes it almost useless except for trivial applications.

For your information, I have been developing Java apps for close to 10 years (actually more if you add pre-graduation development experience) strictly using open-source tools. I have never had to pay for anything, apart from the client who may have to pay for the server such as IBM WAS or WPS (Websphere Portal Server).

Dude, don't take it personal because I called you out on your teaching methods. Just take it as constructive criticism and keep it moving. All that "I wonder oh My Brother" makes you appear like someone who bears a grudge. But I really no send you.

logica:

All the developer tools on the platform has a free express version.
From the above, I really don't need to say much. So because the express version is free, that makes it possible to develop enterprise applications for free? What are you talking about?

Sure ! why not. You can. As a matter of fact i read a poll on Code Project that some people type their .net code in Notepad and deploy just the way java was when it first came.  What u will likely not gain not using Team Edition or professional edition of visual studio is the productivity at its peak.

About the moral in the story u narrated, VC++ 2008 or 2005 Enterprise Edition will not correct the errors u have in a VC++ 6.0. They are 3 different things. VC++ in 2005 is version 8.0 while VC++ in 2008 is version 9.0. There might be some issues in the VC++ 6.0 code u are trying to check because it was not built on the dot net frame work at all. so it has nothing to do with the express edition Sir.

logica:

For your information, I have been developing Java apps for close to 10 year strictly using open-source tools. I have never had to pay for anything, apart from the client who may have to pay for the server such as IBM WAS or WPS (Websphere Portal Server).

That explains ur passion and bias for the "open source technology".    Wont the client pay for ur effort too or is that open source too ? 

Well !, my experience is  3 years lesser than yours and a lot of apps out there to show for it.  (You are a senior colleague no doubt about that Sir.)

logica:

Dude, don't take it personal because I called you out on your teaching methods. Just take it as constructive criticism and keep it moving. All that "I wonder oh My Brother" makes you appear like someone who bears a grudge. But I really no send you.

@logica: Bro, no personal grudge about dt stuff ? i av re-explained myself and 4gotten about that.
I don't av a training skul or av u ever seen me advertising any tin or sent any link on d forum ? they are just newbies (developers) under me. and we combine both .Net and Java Technology where i work presently.

My approach just sounds satirical at times but that doesn't stop me from learning from u. i post on asp.net forum but with another user name sha and that is my style.
Check my recent post against Seun https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-202130.0.html#msg3225539. (I guess i risk a ban  ) That is just me and No personal grudges at all. I just like expressing my self the way i feel while typing.

C u one day to drink the Java Coffee with u 

You need to realize that the more I have to spend on development, the more the client will have to pay. It is natural to offload my expenditure on the client. Therefore reducing expenditure on development is a way of helping the client as well. And then on deployment, the client doesn't have to pay for the use of the open-source frameworks as well (in the form of licensing). Otherwise I would have to pay for licensing (in most cases) and so will the client.

Believe you me, I am quite comfortable with VC++ and .NET even though i don't use them anymore. I started out with Visual Studio (mostly C++ and J++) even before I started coding in Java so I know my way around the tools. I am perfectly aware that 2005 = 8.0 and 2008 = 9.0, so no need to point that out. The code will definitely compile on the Enterprise Editions of either and I don't need to actually try it to be sure. What you will have is a few thousand warnings on deprecated classes/methods and poor coding practice, but the code will still compile.

You may now drop the "Sir", sir. 

good 2 see ur smile after ur last post 


  I am sure that if it works fine on Enterprise 6.0 built in 1998, it will likely work fine on express 2005 or 2008 after correcting errors and header problems just as u said earlier if there is no other reference problems attached. (guess u said they av not tried it on dot net),
But lets suspend dt and concentrate on J2EE because people are waiting to read more from experienced developers like u .

The reason it didn't work on Express 2005 or 2008 was because as I earlier said, those versions don't include certain components (including header files) which are included in the Enterprise Editions. That was the crux of the problem, really. They know exactly what they are doing by giving you free (Express) versions of the development tools to pique your interest, and then when you need more functionality, you go for the Professional, and then maybe Enterprise. As you progress, you get more components.

I didn't mention my years of experience to indicate seniority, merely to state how long I've worked with open-source frameworks. My years of experience may mean nothing, even if you have 3 years less experience as I do, as you may actually know more than I do. I can indeed learn plenty from you, but we all have to be objective and open-minded in our points-of-view.

Ok, i'll check the express versions sha, we use Professional edition 2005 and Team edition 2008. So i wont like 2 argue blindly on express edition but i knew a BIG CLIENT of ours has been running on MS SQL Server 2005 express edition for the past 3 years because they are not ready to get a MS SQLSERVER license.


When i said "EXPERIENCED developer like you", i know what i am talking about. It is not easy to be in active development for 10 Years so i meant it and no scorn at all.  . I know what i weight after seven years not to talk of seeing my self in 3 years time.


About being open minded in our point of view, that is noted too.
Thanks.

Now, I don't know what the client's needs are, but for an enterprise to stick to a Personal Edition of a tool is something I'm sure even Microsoft would not recommend (and not purely for financial reasons). The reason companies in Nigeria can mostly even go for the Enterprise Edition software is mostly because they can get them from Otigba. You will not see an enterprise is the US use the Personal Editions of such tools even during development.

The point I had tried to make (and hope I made) with big companies adopting open-source software was in the past (say pre-2001 or thereabout) they wouldn't even consider any software once it has the open-source label attached to it. They would not touch it with a 10-foot pole. And that frame of mind is slowly making its way into Nigeria.

J2EE is da bomb! Believe or not! It may not be blistering fast, but its scalable, robust, secure and name. .NET is just scores better in simplicity, but that does not imply J2EE is complex. No way! Man it can be so easy. Pay attention to the basics and detail. I speak from experience. Although i also use .NET, but man, i just love J2EE.
EJB 2.0, yeah, was kind of a nightmare (especially Entity beans). Todays EJB 3.0 is good. Persistence is built on hibernate's successful design patterns.
I'm still learning more of J2EE.
Sure give it a shot!

Just thought i should ask. Has anyone here used Groovy's Grails framework? Its a competitor to Ruby's Rails framework.

Yes am currently playing around with it and so far it has been awesome .

i guess i better take a closer look.

I love J2EE 2. The simplicity in .NET in my opinion at times is just for small scale applications and probably the architecture. It could be as complex as J2EE if u really do N-TIER Architectural design on .NET Framework too. Both Technologies are GREAT !. it depends on the project requirement or ur prowess as a developer.

about the groovy stuff, that is interesting, but can it speak to the .net framework just like ruby's rail does ? because i once spoke to my dot net classes from ruby, although i was just playing around it but it worked fine then.

From what I've seen so far, it can wrap all your OR/M (Hibernate/Spring), UI (in my case JSR-168 Portlets) and even EJBs (3.0) all really well. Thanks elenduuche for the tip. I was inclined not to take you serious initially because of that name .

@bigboyslim

How's Your delve into J2EE going? More Grease ~

Hi all.

Thanks to all that have responded so far. Sorry for my late reply i've been busy with school exams. You guys have definitely given me a greater insight into J2EE and I think I am more confident in my decision to start learning it now. Will update this thread if I have any more doubts. you guys are the best.

Well "Logica", i felt almost the same way. "Groovy"! Its indeed "Groovy"!

@dammy
I don't think Groovy can use your .NET classes. That's because, its design to run on the JVM, and use java classes, and get used by java classes.
You can use java or groovy interchangeably in your groovy script or class.

Nevertheless, it very interesting. It beats ruby in the area of seamless use with java classes.