Pr0ton:


" The life you live now is not yours... You are actually dead since when you were saved"









"...and he who is dead is free from sin"

God sees us as righteous because of our faith,
but those who continue to live a sinful life,
did they really have faith?
are they really saved?

Shouldn't we be becoming more like Christ, and not living like we are still of the world?
.

Efficiencie and Hiswordxray

You guys still don't understand. What efficiencie is explictly saying is "somehow you have to do something for your salvation to be complete". Unfortunately, Eph says the opposite, "it's not of yourself". From A-Z of your salvation is the work of God only. You only feel and enjoy it through "faith". You are not saved by faith, neither by works, but by grace. And grace can not be accompained with works "otherwise it is no more grace". God planted the seed and did everything neccessary. You have no part to play in your salvation.

The idea that you still must do something before you gain salvation has a big problem of explaining the fate of babies, disables and those who died before having the opportunity to hear the gospel.

Read the entire James 2 it doesn't talk about salvation but your faith in application to your lifestyle. Pray to God for something and don't work towards it; your faith is dead!

johnw74:


God sees us as righteous because of our faith,
but those who continue to live a sinful life,
did they really have faith?
are they really saved?

Shouldn't we be becoming more like Christ, and not living like we are still of the world?
.

He sees you righteous not solely because of your faith, but because of what Christ has done for you! He took Jesus's righteousness and Imputed it onto you. You might say I'm teaching the doctrince that gives the freedom to sin, but the truth can not be hidden! He doesn't see your sinfulness; He sees Christ's righteousness in you! You are no longer living; it is Christ living in you! And you know this by faith! You only fail when Christ fails. But the book of Hebrews makes us understand that Christ is the perfect sacrifice. "God doesn't count your sins against you" 2 Cor 5:19

OP and others advocating Grace + works, instead of grace that produce good works. I have a question for you guys, what is works according to Christ which Israel didn't understand?

Goshen360:
OP and others advocating Grace + works, instead of grace that produce good works. I have a question for you guys, what is works according to Christ which Israel didn't understand?

Do as I do.

Live as the master lives, simple.

But not so for the children of the devil, those ones know more than their professed master.

MostHigh:


Do as I do.

Live as the master lives, simple.

But not so for the children of the devil, those ones know more than their professed master.

Answer the question or stop quoting me.

Goshen360:
OP and others advocating Grace + works, instead of grace that produce good works. I have a question for you guys, what is works according to Christ which Israel didn't understand?

What I'm trying to say is that they are two kind of works mentioned in the Bible:
Works of the law and works of faith.
Works of the flesh and works of the spirit.
Works produced from the life of God in you and works produced from human wisdom (knowledge of good and evil).
Works that is instinctive and works the is from
methodology and doctrine.
Works that is based on spiritual impulses and works that is based on constructed planed action.
Works that is a response to looking unto Jesus and works that is a response to acquired knowledge.
Works that is a reflection of the radiated glory of Christ and works that is a reflection of the state of the fallen man.

I do not say Grace + Works
but Grace - Works = Works
Grace is God working through you not your own works produced from human wisdom.

Paul was talking about this when he said "12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Phi 2:13).

Paul teaches that we work out our own salvation but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

Goshen360:


Answer the question or stop quoting me.

The question has been answered.

What more are you looking for?

If you don't want to be quoted then stay off the site.

I am only trying to settle the issue here, to reconcile both sides.
Some of you say Grace - Works
While the others say Grace + Works
But I am saying Grace - Works = Works

We are saved by Grace through faith,
in other words God grants us salvation because of our faith,
and that faith is not our own, God gave it to us for seeking truth,
we can't take credit for our faith or salvation, it is all God's doing.
And once saved God does Good works in us to make us more like Christ.
so faith without works (God's works in us) is dead.

Those who say they are Christian and are still living sinful lifestyles,
are they truly Christians?
Christ lives in believers, when a so called christian is living a sinful lifestyle, is that Christ living in Him?
I don't think so.

You only fail when Christ fails.

That is a strange sentence, Christ in us never fails.

Johnw74

When you got saved you died. Your life is hidden in Christ. You no longer live. You no longer belong to this word. The life you live now is not your own. You have no control over it. It is Christ living in you now. And you are aware of this by faith. God sees the righteousness of Christ in you. It is Christ God is seeing, not you. Not your lifestyle, whether good or bad. Your already dead. You then only fail if Christ fails. If he can not fail, then you are eternally saved.

Pr0ton:
Johnw74

When you got saved you died. Your life is hidden in Christ. You no longer live. You no longer belong to this word. The life you live now is not your own. You have no control over it. It is Christ living in you now. And you are aware of this by faith. God sees the righteousness of Christ in you. It is Christ God is seeing, not you. Not your lifestyle, whether good or bad. Your already dead. You then only fail if Christ fails. If he can not fail, then you are eternally saved.

hope you've not slept with all the girls in your choir using this erroneous doctrine of yours?

Bidam:
hope you've not slept with all the girls in your choir using this erroneous doctrine of yours?

One common answer to the definition of GRACE is 'unmerited favour'. This means something done to someone who is undeserving. 
Therefore if the least merit on the part of the recipient (before, during or after it is expressed) is brought in, then  IT IS NO LONGER unmerited. It becomes a reward or payment!!!  In other words it would be deserved!! 

That would cancel out that definition of grace. It would have to be something else. 

Grace therefore stands on its own WITHOUT the addition of ANY kind of works. 

A graphic picture of this is in the story of The Good Samaritan. 
- The helpless victim was the recipient of an UNMERITED FAVOUR. 
- He did NOTHING to earn the kindness he received. 
- The credit goes entirely to the giver of the Favour. 
- Once the gracious act was done it could not be 'undone'. 

PS
Grace and works are mutually exclusive.
They cannot be blended together in any way.

Yes we are saved by grace through faith, not by works,
we do good works because we are saved, or more correctly when we are saved Christ works in us.
Good works follow being saved, God works in us to our betterment.

The teaching that once we are saved we can do anything even live a life of sin and still be saved is a false teaching,
living a life of sin once saved is not Christ working in us.
Faith without works is dead, if a saved person is not doing good works no matter how little then How would Christ be in that person.
Christ working in me over many years is very slowly and surely making me a better person,
we are all sinners and Christ saves us in that state, but he obviously does not want us to remain that way.

^^^
Do you know that the Bible denote that:
We are already saved, we are still undergoing salvation and we would be saved some time in the future.

We are already holy, we are being made holy and we would become holy in the future.

We are already sanctified, we are being sanctified and we would one day be sanctified.

We are already perfect, we are being made perfect and one day we would become perfect.

We are already righteous, we still need to be righteous and we would become righteous one day.

malvisguy212:
If one rejects the doctrine of grace, he
must be able to answer the following
questions from Paul:
Why did Messiah Jesus die? As Paul
said, "I do not nullify the grace of God;
for if righteousness comes through the
Law, then Christ died needlessly." ( Galatians 2:21)

The next question is likewise from Paul.
"This is the only thing I want to find out
from you: did you receive the Spirit by
the works of the Law, or by hearing
with faith?" ( Galatians 3:2)

Paul had a knack for getting to the
point of the gospel. The third question
is also from Paul. "Are you so foolish?
Having begun by the Spirit, are you
now being perfected by the
FLASH?" ( Galatians 3:3)

Many who reject the gospel of grace do
so because they think that they can
please God on the basis of their own
works of the flesh. This amounts to
simple pride, which God abhors.
Included below are some of the things
the Lord has led me to, that all might
accept His grace and trust Him with our
sanctification.However grace is giving to thoes who genuinely repent of there sin.

The problem for us is that we are not
judged merely on the basis of our deeds, but on the basis of our hearts and desires. This is where we all fail. I know, because since becoming a Christian 8 years ago, the Spirit has been convicting me of my wrong motives and attitudes. I know that I am not worthy to stand in the presence of God on my own merit. I need a Savior to redeem me and intercede for my sins, and I need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into His righteousness. Many people think that we earn merit
with God by performing good works.
However, the Bible says we are all
unworthy and we will not see heaven on
the basis of our "good" works.

In conclusion, all followers of Jesus
should seek His righteousness. However, if we attempt to do it by our own power and strength, we try to make ourselves equal to God. It is only a reliance on the Holy Spirit that can keep us on a righteous path. A good summary of my main point is from the Psalms:

" Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And do not lean on your own
understanding. In all your ways
acknowledge Him, And He will make
your paths straight. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

this is half truth, and its dangerous!

christemmbassey:
this is half truth, and its dangerous!

And the whole truth ?

trustman:

And the whole truth ?

a christian is RIGHTEOUS! He/she doesn't need a saviour, he/she is SAVED!!

christemmbassey:
a christian is RIGHTEOUS! He/she doesn't need a saviour, he/she is SAVED!!

But at least a Christian should pursue righteousness and reflect the righteousness of God.
One cannot be righteous on his own but with God working in us we can reflect the righteousness of Christ.

Hiswordxray:

But at least a Christian should pursue righteousness and reflect the righteousness of God.
One cannot be righteous on his own but with God working in us we can reflect the righteousness of Christ.

bros, a christian is RIGHTEOUS! He does not need to pursue righteousness. Do you pursue what you have already?

christemmbassey:
bros, a christian is RIGHTEOUS! He does not need to pursue righteousness. Do you pursue what you have already?

but righteousness is in measures...

Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

2Corinthians 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; )

Why shine more and more if all you need do is to shine? Why increase the fruits of righteousness if righteousness is static... righteousness grows the more you're filled with grace, the knowlegde of God and the workings of the Spirit

Grace and works can never go together. grace can only be received through faith. then we have to understand what grace is and what faith is.
Romans 11:16
And if by Grace then it is no longer of worksotherwise grace is no longer grace. if it be of works it is no longer of grace otherwise works is no more works.
right here is the definition of Grace.
works that is referring to the law of moses which made the people to get everything only by their human effort.
grace on the hand is the opposite. meaning grace is getting everything not based on your efforts but rather based on the works or effort of Jesus.
Therefore grace and works are two parallel lines that can never meet.
John 1 :17
for the law was GIVEN through moses but Grace CAME ( GINOMAI) through JESUS CHRIST.

notice the bible says God gave the law but grace came .
Grace is the person of JESUS. There couldn't be grace without Jesus.
that is why we say the grace of our lord jesus christ .....
coming up with what faith is

Many on this thread are posting for posting sake and not reading in between the lines my opening post...

I say again there are works and there are WORKS! Works borne out of man's capacity defies Grace and vice versa but WORKS borne out of BELIEF in the Christ keeps FAITH ALIVE and only with a living faith can you get GRACE... Please read these verses and argue with bro James if you like:

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Bro James is asking you all a question, please answer?

James 2:17-18,21,24
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ok, scribes and theologians start arguing with Bro James...instead of harmonizing scripture you pit it against itself...

efficiencie:
Many on this thread are posting for posting sake and not reading in between the lines my opening post...

I say again there are works and there are WORKS! Works borne out of man's capacity defies Grace and vice versa but WORKS borne out of BELIEF in the Christ keeps FAITH ALIVE and only with a living faith can you get GRACE... Please read these verses and argue with bro James if you like:

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Bro James is asking you all a question, please answer?

James 2:17-18,21,24
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ok, scribes and theologians start arguing with Bro James...instead of harmonizing scripture you pit it against itself...

what is faith according to the bible ? do you know there is a great difference between faith and believing

oprajo:

what is faith according to the bible ? do you know there is a great difference between faith and believing

My brother, i'm not a linguist and know little about the semantics... i just want to know if you are about to argue the infallibility of the WORDS of GOD by the mouth of bro James on WORKS and FAITH?

efficiencie:
Many on this thread are posting for posting sake and not reading in between the lines my opening post...

I say again there are works and there are WORKS! Works borne out of man's capacity defies Grace and vice versa but WORKS borne out of BELIEF in the Christ keeps FAITH ALIVE and only with a living faith can you get GRACE... Please read these verses and argue with bro James if you like:

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Bro James is asking you all a question, please answer?

James 2:17-18,21,24
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ok, scribes and theologians start arguing with Bro James...instead of harmonizing scripture you pit it against itself...

I do hope you noticed that James didn't say 'Grace without works is dead'; rather that 'Faith (i

efficiencie:


My brother, i'm not a linguist and know little about the semantics... i just want to know if you are about to argue the infallibility of the WORDS of GOD by the mouth of bro James on WORKS and FAITH?

Let me differentiate the two
NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]. amplified version

based on that definition faith is the title deed of your expectation.
faith is also the proof of things not seen I.e with the physical eyes. and convinced og their reality.

faith that legal document that guarantees that you have your expectation. faith is a active force just like wisdom. faith makes you do. The works James referred to are those actions that faith makes you do.
is just like you asking a man that has land if he is the genuine owner. he won't take you to his land but rather show you the title deed I.e legal document. that legal document is his faith. you don't use faith to receive from God. To receive from God you believe.
beliving is different from faith in that believing means to agree with or accept and it take place in the heart not in the mind.
beliving is included in faith but on it's own is not faith. there times God tells us to believe.

efficiencie:
Many on this thread are posting for posting sake and not reading in between the lines my opening post...

I say again there are works and there are WORKS! Works borne out of man's capacity defies Grace and vice versa but WORKS borne out of BELIEF in the Christ keeps FAITH ALIVE and only with a living faith can you get GRACE... Please read these verses and argue with bro James if you like:

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Bro James is asking you all a question, please answer?

James 2:17-18,21,24
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Ok, scribes and theologians start arguing with Bro James...instead of harmonizing scripture you pit it against itself...

I do hope you noticed that James didn't say 'Grace without works is dead'; rather that 'Faith (i.e. Biblical truth that a person knows or creed/spiritual principles that a person knows), if it has no works (i.e. If it is not applied: Not put into practice), is dead (i.e. Produces no results, remains stagnant, is useless), being by itself'
God's grace is available to all. It is unearned. It is therefore unconditional. That is why Apistle Paul could say : "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; IF IT WERE, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).

At the point of salvation, the faith anyone expresses is a non- meritorious action. It cannot be classified as 'works' otherwise that would mean that the 'works' of a sinner/unbeliever amounts to something before God.

James in his epistle is simply saying then that a Christian who knows scriptures but refuses to put it into practice or apply it, will be unfruitful and also putting himself up for God's discipline which could terminate his life in death.

trustman:
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I do hope you noticed that James didn't say 'Grace without works is dead'; rather that 'Faith (i.e. Biblical truth that a person knows or creed/spiritual principles that a person knows), if it has no works (i.e. If it is not applied: Not put into practice), is dead (i.e. Produces no results, remains stagnant, is useless), being by itself'
God's grace is available to all. It is unearned. It is therefore unconditional. That is why Apistle Paul could say : "And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; IF IT WERE, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).

At the point of salvation, the faith anyone expresses is a non- meritorious action. It cannot be classified as 'works' otherwise that would mean that the 'works' of a sinner/unbeliever amounts to something before God.

James in his epistle is simply saying then that a Christian who knows scriptures but refuses to put it into practice or apply it, will be unfruitful and also putting himself up for God's discipline which could terminate his life in death.

isn't grace by faith as said by Paul:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

That means if faith is dead then grace is dead as well. ..and what keeps faith alive WORKS!

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead,
being alone.

...Do you also want to argue with Bros Paul and James combined! The question you need to ask is: How are the 'works' of Romans 11:6 different from the 'WORKS' of James 2:17?

efficiencie:


isn't grace by faith as said by Paul:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

That means if faith is dead then grace is dead as well. ..and what keeps faith alive WORKS!

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead,
being alone.

...Do you also want to argue with Bros Paul and James combined! The question you need to ask is: How are the 'works' of Romans 11:6 different from the 'WORKS' of James 2:17?

I'm actually in agreement with both Apostle Paul and James. 
Both of them, when well understood, DO NOT contradict themselves. 
So, I'm not arguing with any one of them. It's actually an issue of CLEARLY understanding them. 

Grace is all that God does for us on the basis of Christ's work on the cross. God's grace stands whether man responds to it or not. The CREDIT belongs entirely to him. 
God did not have to wait for mankind to attain a measure of 'righteousness' or 'good' or 'holiness' before he provided Christ - "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."(Romans 5:8' ) - , THAT IS GRACE!

Do you disagree with my statement:
At the point of salvation, the faith anyone expresses is a non- meritorious action. It cannot be classified as 'works' otherwise that would mean that the 'works' of a sinner/unbeliever amounts to something before God. ?
If so, are saying that man's MERIT (in this case, a sinner's merit) is part of what saves him? (Since you claim that what keeps faith alive is works?).

Again a clear understanding of James 2:17 - "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. " - is this:
'Faith (i.e. Biblical truth that a person knows or creed/spiritual principles that a person knows), if it has no works (i.e. If it is not applied: Not put into practice), is dead (i.e. Produces no results, remains stagnant, is useless), being by itself'

Therefore a Christian who does not apply what he knows from scriptures to his day to day life lives an unproductive spiritual life.

truthman:
If so, are saying that man's MERIT (in this case,
a sinner's merit) is part of what saves
him? (Since you claim that what keeps faith
alive is works?).

Bro truthman no man, no matter how pious and acetic, is worthy of anything from above! When i say WORKS i do not mean the works of mere men rather i mean the MOTIONS of people (good, bad or ugly) driven by their belief in the WILL of the Father expressed by the WORD, Jesus Christ.

So in this light i believe we agree!

truthman:
Again a clear understanding of James 2:17 -
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is
dead, being alone. " - is this:
'Faith (i.e. Biblical truth that a person
knows or creed/spiritual principles that a
person knows), if it has no works (i.e. If it
is not applied: Not put into practice), is
dead (i.e. Produces no results, remains
stagnant, is useless), being by itself'

Bro your discussion above does not capture the degree of the seriousness of what happens when FAITH is without WORKS Faith is not just stagnant or useless... It is DEAD! without WORKS! (I hope you now know what i mean by WORKS)...So grace may abound for a lifetime but if faith isn't backed with INSPIRED WORKS then grace is out of reach!

Many Christians are killed by erroneous teachings... if the woman with the issue of blood had remained in her house FASTING and PRAYING she'll remain sick, if the prostitute hadn't broken the jar of perfume and anointed Jesus' feet she wouldn't have been saved, if Peter had remained in the boat he would'nt have walked on water, if Moses didnt stretch his rod the waters wouldn't have parted, if David hadn't used his sling Goliath wouldn't have been silenced and slaughtered, if Elijah hadn't rebuilt the altar and called on the LORD fire wouldn't have fallen, if Elisha hadn't smote the water with Elijah's mantle the waters wouldn't have parted, if Jesus hadn't mixed spittle with clay and smeared it on the eyes of that man born blind that man would never see...

You see, from the Prostitute to the Messiah they all had on thing in common... they supernaturally knew the will of the Father, by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, in their hearts and they ACTED UPON THE WORD

Again I say, there are works and there are WORKS... and Grace without works is DEAD