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Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 5:28pm On Feb 28, 2015
ayoku777:


Fine, at least now you've made your position clear. That God is the one that chooses to save some and He chooses not to save some.

I disagree with you though and there are scriptures that also disagree with you. Scriptures that say clearly, that God wants ALL MEN SAVED and is unwilling that ANY SHOULD PERISH:

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE.

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But at least you've made your opinion clear. Good enough.
I have referred you to a thread on this , nontheless, you should know that there is a secret and a revealed will of God. By His revealed will, He does not desire the death of a sinner. However , by His secret will, He does. How else do you explain the fact that some perish against His will?
Is the will of God always good as you know good?
Amos 3:6

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 6:05pm On Feb 28, 2015
The funny thing is that the bible never claimed FOREKNOWLEDGE as one of Yahweh's attributes.
Yahweh, according to the bible, declares the something and then makes it come to pass. He doesn't have the power to see the future just as we are seeing the present.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 6:13pm On Feb 28, 2015
ayoku777:


Fine, at least now you've made your position clear. That God is the one that chooses to save some and He chooses not to save some.

Is my assertion different from what Grace teaches? Do any save themselves? Is it not rather God that saves? So why does He not save ALL persons?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 6:28pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
The funny thing is that the bible never claimed FOREKNOWLEDGE as one of Yahweh's attributes.
Yahweh, according to the bible, declares the something and then makes it come to pass. He doesn't have the power to see the future just as we are seeing the present.
This is false. The Bible rather asserts that, He knows the end from the beginning.
Isaiah 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Also read Psalm 139.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 6:38pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

This is false. The Bible rather asserts that, He knows the end from the beginning.
Isaiah 46:10


Also read Psalm 139.
"Declaring" is not the same as "seeing". There is a whole lot of difference there. He can declare a certain event to occur, and by His power makes it come to pass.
Seeing the future is nt only impossible, but illogical. That would make him a troll.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 6:43pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

Is my assertion different from what Grace teaches? Do any save themselves? Is it not rather God that saves? So why does He not save ALL persons?

God is the one that saves but He doesn't impose salvation on any man. God's salvation can be rejected, man has the freewill to reject it.

John 3v19 -And this is condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Acts 13v46 -Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you, but seeing ye PUT IT FROM YOU, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn unto the gentiles.

Can you see, an individual can reject light and choose darkness. And a man can put off the gospel from himself.

God is the one that saves, but He doesn't impose His salvation. He presents you with the offer, and you choose to accept or reject it. God saves those who accept the offer to be saved by grace through faith.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 6:45pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

I have referred you to a thread on this , nontheless, you should know that there is a secret and a revealed will of God. By His revealed will, He does not desire the death of a sinner. However , by His secret will, He does. How else do you explain the fact that some perish against His will?
Is the will of God always good as you know good?
Amos 3:6

I don't believe in this secret and revealed doctrine. Its like a diplomatic way of calling God a liar or someone with double standards. Someone who says one thing but mean another.

God's will is good. He didn't prepare the lake of fire for man. It was for Lucifer and his angels.

Matthew 25v41 -Then He shall also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

God does not desire man's condemnation, this was why He sent Jesus.

John 3v17 -For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him MIGHT BE SAVED.

And the "world" here is not land and sea, but mankind.

God did not send His Son to go through all that suffering for the salvation of the world, when He secretly doesn't want to save the world.

There is no double standards with God. He doesn't publicly want all to be saved, then secretly not want all to be saved.

People are condemned by their own choices.

John 3v19 - And this is condemnation, that light is come into the world, AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, because their deeds were evil.

Man has a freewill and the power of choice.

Deuteronomy 30v19 -I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy see may live.

Jesus Himself warned us in

Rev 3v11 -Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

This scripture shows that a man can by his choices lose his crown. Jesus didn't say you will have a crown no matter what you do.

And the passage in Amos you quoted. The "evil" there is about God's judgment on a nation for its wickedness. It is talking about the judgment of God a nation brings on itself by its own wickedness.

I've read that article on that link as well, it talks about God having two wills. He didn't articulate his explanations well.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 6:53pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
The funny thing is that the bible never claimed FOREKNOWLEDGE as one of Yahweh's attributes.
Yahweh, according to the bible, declares the something and then makes it come to pass. He doesn't have the power to see the future just as we are seeing the present.

John 6v64 - For Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING who they were that believed not, AND WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM.

Luke 22v34 -And He said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shall thrice deny that thou knowest me.

These verses proof the foreknowledge of Christ.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 6:57pm On Feb 28, 2015
ayoku777:


John 6v64 - For Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING who they were that believed not, AND WHO SHOULD BETRAY HIM.

Luke 22v34 -And He said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shall thrice deny that thou knowest me.

These verses proof the foreknowledge of Christ.
that's not foreknowledge, but a declaration. Do prophets have foreknowledge or do they make declarations?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by ayoku777(m): 7:01pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
that's not foreknowledge, but a declaration. Do prophets have foreknowledge or do they make declarations?

The bible said Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING.... Who would betray Him

How is that a declaration?

Prophets don't have foreknowledge.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 7:08pm On Feb 28, 2015
ayoku777:


The bible said Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING.... Who would betray Him

How is that a declaration?

Prophets don't have foreknowledge.
he "knew" from the beginning because it had already been set up. Lol
seriously, to avoid confusion, let's use the term FORESIGHT. I know that the sun shall shine tomorrow. If that isn't foreknowledge, then what is?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Whobedatte(m): 7:41pm On Feb 28, 2015
An2elect2:
Cc: ayoku777

Excuse me, are you saying God's foreknowledge of events is uncertain?

For the record: Its either God is in charge or man is!

You know about Jacob and Esau right?

what did the scripture say about them: one was loved and the other hated, even before they were born or did anything anything good or bad. It was for God's election to stand! Romans 9:13.

Do you realise this "free will" lie makes God seem weak?

My phone isn't in good condition now, will be back.

R u an gnostic or atheist?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 7:49pm On Feb 28, 2015
I think most christians try to force in qualities to their "God concept". They fail to realize that the ancient israelites et al had a different of god.
They believe in the four elements viz: fire, earth, water, and wind. And thought of God as one who who could manipulate this elements.
They didn't need the 3 omni's to define their God.
So you see, Yahweh was never omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. And He will never be.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 8:29pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
"Declaring" is not the same as "seeing". There is a whole lot of difference there. He can declare a certain event to occur, and by His power makes it come to pass.
Seeing the future is nt only impossible, but illogical. That would make him a troll.
What do you have to say about Psalm 139?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 8:43pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

What do you have to say about Psalm 139?
what verse are you referring to? I just read psalm 139, and it says nothing about foreknowledge/prescience.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 9:28pm On Feb 28, 2015
ayoku777:


God is the one that saves but He doesn't impose salvation on any man. God's salvation can be rejected, man has the freewill to reject it.

John 3v19 -And this is condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Acts 13v46 -Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you, but seeing ye PUT IT FROM YOU, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn unto the gentiles.

Can you see, an individual can reject light and choose darkness. And a man can put off the gospel from himself.

God is the one that saves, but He doesn't impose His salvation. He presents you with the offer, and you choose to accept or reject it. God saves those who accept the offer to be saved by grace through faith.
If God does the saving, He must know who would be saved/who He wants to save before hand and such a one cannot but be saved. God saves! He doesn"t position someone so such a one can save themselves. He saved those He would by the death of Christ. Acts 13 (the same chapter you quoted)goes on to say:

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Acts2

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
If the salvation of a person is not determined by God, it follows a person is saved before God knows it.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by bingbagbo(m): 9:55pm On Feb 28, 2015
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed. -NRSV
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 10:04pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
what verse are you referring to? I just read psalm 139, and it says nothing about foreknowledge/prescience.
The whole Psalm is virtually about His knowledge and foreknowledge. However comment on verse 16

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 10:08pm On Feb 28, 2015
bingbagbo:
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed. -NRSV
May the Lord bless you a million fold.

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Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 10:20pm On Feb 28, 2015
bingbagbo:
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed. -NRSV
Is that a fact, or was king David just praising his god?
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by bingbagbo(m): 10:31pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
Is that a fact, or was king David just praising his god?




shocked shocked :oare you with us?

anyway, John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

so if God doesnt draw me, my will cant draw myself to God, i will perish

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Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by bingbagbo(m): 10:35pm On Feb 28, 2015
John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without me, ye can do nothing."

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Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 10:38pm On Feb 28, 2015
bingbagbo:





shocked shocked :oare you with us?

anyway, John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

so if God doesnt draw me, my will cant draw myself to God, i will perish

.

Lol, I am not with you. Anyway, those scriptures only prove that Yahweh pre-orders(but doesn't SEE) the future.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 10:45pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
he "knew" from the beginning because it had already been set up. Lol
seriously, to avoid confusion, let's use the term FORESIGHT. I know that the sun shall shine tomorrow. If that isn't foreknowledge, then what is?
Foresight and foreknowledge are two different things. Foreknowledge is certain and a divine attribute while foresight is not.
You can't know to a certainty that the sun will shine tomorrow.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 10:54pm On Feb 28, 2015
Well, it goes this:
If Yahweh directly saw the future, then it would be absurd creating Adam after seeing the billions of souls perish in eternal destruction. * It would have been foolish sending Angels? to see "if the reports from sodom and gomorrah" are true. Thatz after seeing them sodomize each other.
* It would be dumb for Yahweh to be angry, seeing as He had already foreseen said events.
* it wouldn't make any sense for Jesus to pray for His father "to let this cup pass", fully knowing He was going to die via hanging.
The above points and more are reasons why Yahweh isn't foreseeing; foreknowing;omnipresent etc. And are reasons why this should be closed.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 11:01pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
Well, it goes this:
If Yahweh directly saw the future, then it would be absurd creating Adam after seeing the billions of souls perish in eternal destruction. * It would have been foolish sending Angels? to see "if the reports from sodom and gomorrah" are true. Thatz after seeing them sodomize each other.
* It would be dumb for Yahweh to be angry, seeing as He had already foreseen said events.
* it wouldn't make any sense for Jesus to pray for His father "to let this cup pass", fully knowing He was going to die via hanging.
The above points and more are reasons why Yahweh isn't foreseeing; foreknowing;omnipresent etc. And are reasons why this should be closed.
grin grin grin
Seriously, I just realized you need eye salves.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 11:01pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

Foresight and foreknowledge are two different things. Foreknowledge is certain and a divine attribute while foresight is not.
You can't know to a certainty that the sun will shine tomorrow.
i am saying that there is nothing like foreknowledge as related to mankind. What you call divine foreknowledge is not.
There are bible prophecies which come to pass. Can you with boldness tell me that God's hand was not involved in the fulfilment of any of those prophecies? No? Methinks those are just declarations, and by his power He makes them come to pass. That doesn't look like foreknowledge to me.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 11:07pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

grin grin grin
Seriously, I just realized you need eye salves.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by 5solas(m): 11:08pm On Feb 28, 2015
timonski:
i am saying that there is nothing like foreknowledge as related to mankind. What you call divine foreknowledge is not.
There are bible prophecies which come to pass. Can you with boldness tell me that God's hand was not involved in the fulfillment of any of those prophecies? No? Methinks those are just declarations, and by his power He makes them come to pass. That doesn't look like foreknowledge to me.
If God's predetermination is certain then His knowledge of future events would be also. This is what we call foreknowledge.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 11:08pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

grin grin grin
Seriously, I just realized you need eye salves.
.....
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 11:28pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

If God's predetermination is certain then His knowledge of future events would be also. This is what we call foreknowledge.
smiley hehe. That's assuming i biblical account of anything.
My bone of contention is that this Yahweh has shown not to have foreknowledge on a large scale. He didn't know what was going on in sodom/gomorrah.
Let me elaborate a little: let's look @ the crufixion of christ. It had already been prophesied that the messiah's legs won't be broken, and that His garment would gambled upon. Now, it is God's Job to ensure that the prophecy be fulfilled. It was His job to ensure that the soldiers didn't break his leg. As for specific soldiers to carry out the execution-it wasn't pre-ordained.
Soldiers A,B, and C or soldiers X,Y, and Z could have executed Jesus christ, but they would have no bearing on the prophecy, as long as they fought over garments(and didn't break the messiah's legs).
So u see. In this case, the whole was planned by God, but the individual choices i.e. Set of soldiers wasn't planned(foreknown?lol) by him.
This, my friend, is what i call PRE-ORDAINMENT, and not FOREKNOWLEDGE.
Re: Has GOD Given Humans Freewill Or Predestinated Humans?? by Nobody: 11:28pm On Feb 28, 2015
5solas:

If God's predetermination is certain then His knowledge of future events would be also. This is what we call foreknowledge.
smiley hehe. That's assuming i believe the biblical account of anything.
My bone of contention is that this Yahweh has shown not to have foreknowledge on a large scale. He didn't know what was going on in sodom/gomorrah.
Let me elaborate a little: let's look @ the crufixion of christ. It had already been prophesied that the messiah's legs won't be broken, and that His garment would gambled upon. Now, it is God's Job to ensure that the prophecy be fulfilled. It was His job to ensure that the soldiers didn't break his leg. As for specific soldiers to carry out the execution-it wasn't pre-ordained.
Soldiers A,B, and C or soldiers X,Y, and Z could have executed Jesus christ, but they would have no bearing on the prophecy, as long as they fought over garments(and didn't break the messiah's legs).
So u see. In this case, the whole was planned by God, but the individual choices i.e. Set of soldiers wasn't planned(foreknown?lol) by him.
This, my friend, is what i call PRE-ORDAINMENT, and not FOREKNOWLEDGE.

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