Ooops, double-posting

You guys just give the God so many wonderful attributes that it becomes harder for you to defend: viz a vis omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient while your biblical stories proves it wrong.

Let me add more to instances timonski gave:

Adam and Eve. If your attribute of God is correct, then he was right there when the serpent was deceiving Eve, he had the power to prevent it but didn't; he just watched. But what was recorded in the bible was that he came down to fellowship with adam as he always does (omnipresent: disproved).

He asked adam where he was then adam replied that he was naked. "Who told you that you are naked, have you eaten of the fruit I asked you not to? (Omniscient disproved).

The anger in which he dished the curses left right and centre shows he neither had the foreknowledge nor predestined anything!

God doesn't meet up the standard you set for him.

simplex2:
You guys just give the God so many wonderful attributes that it becomes harder for you to defend: viz a vis omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient while your biblical stories proves it wrong.

Let me add more to instances timonski gave:

Adam and Eve. If your attribute of God is correct, then he was right there when the serpent was deceiving Eve, he had the power to prevent it but didn't; he just watched. But what was recorded in the bible was that he came down to fellowship with adam as he always does (omnipresent: disproved).

He asked adam where he was then adam replied that he was naked. "Who told you that you are naked, have you eaten of the fruit I asked you not to? (Omniscient disproved).

The anger in which he dished the curses left right and centre shows he neither had the foreknowledge nor predestined anything!

God doesn't meet up the standard you set for him.

You couldn't have put it any better.

Whobedatte:
R u an gnostic or atheist?

Christian.

ayoku777:


You said free will is a lie from hell. Meaning even our "choices" are God's counsel, much like a "dummy freewill".

Do you believe this scriptures?

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE.

Do you believe God has a chosen people? If God wants to save everybody as you think why are there many scriptures that talk about those He has chosen unto salvation? 1Peter2:9, John 15:16, Jeremiah 1:5, Deut 14:2, Ephesians 1:3,4, 2 Thess 2:14, Isaiah 43:1-3,10, 1Thess 1:4, Galatians1:15-16,etc. Can scripture contradict itself? That God wants to save everybody and also a select people is impossible and devoid of logic.

If it has been explicitly stated that God has from the beginning chosen some to salvation 2Thess 2:13 and we come across the bible verses you quoted that seem to contradict the clear teaching of election, do we play along treacherously, force ourselves to interpret them independently, separately from others and/or pretend like other scriptures do not exist?

ayoku777:

Do you agree according to this scripture that God is not willing that any should perish?

Another scripture;

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in ther sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you agree with this scripture also that its God good and acceptable will to have ALL MEN SAVED?

Do you agree or you disagree?

Now if God wants all men saved and none to perish, why then are many not saved and many have perished? If according to you man has no freewill and only God's counsel is done.

You will answer all these questions yourself when you understand that salvation is not by choice but by grace according to God's election.

An2elect2:
Do you believe God has a chosen people? If God wants to save everybody as you think why are there many scriptures that talk about those He has chosen unto salvation? 1Peter2:9, John 15:16, Jeremiah 1:5, Deut 14:2, Ephesians 1:3,4, 2 Thess 2:14, Isaiah 43:1-3,10, 1Thess 1:4, Galatians1:15-16,etc. Can scripture contradict itself? That God wants to save everybody and also a select people is impossible and devoid of logic.

If it has been explicitly stated that God has from the beginning chosen some to salvation 2Thess 2:13 and we come across the bible verses you quoted that seem to contradict the clear teaching of election, do we play along treacherously, force ourselves to interpret them independently, separately from others and/or pretend like other scriptures do not exist?



You will answer all these questions yourself when you understand that salvation is not by choice but by grace according to God's election.

I quoted verses that explicitly shows that God is not willing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentence, and that He would have all men to be saved. And you quoted scriptures that says God has chosen some unto salvation.

You didn't say anything, you only succeeded in implying that scriptures contradict eachother. And that's not true.

You keep claiming you read everything I've been saying since the beginning of this thread; but if you truly did, you will notice I truly believe in predestination, and that God indeed can fore-ordain a destiny.

But what is also clear from scriptures is that freewill is more powerful than predestination. A man can choose by his own freewill to not submit to predestination.

You want scriptural proof?

Jesus was called the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13v8.

Meaning His sacrificial death was predestined and pre-determined.

Also in 1Peter; it says that his death and the shedding of His blood was FOREORDAINED.

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

But even though Christ's suffering and death was foreordained before the foundation of the world; He still said in Matthew 26v53 -

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Meaning if Jesus had changed His mind about dying and requested to be rescued, the Father would have granted His request, even though it would have been contrary to what was foreordained.

Jesus still reserved the freewill and power to choose otherwise. He voluntarily submitted to predestination.

The bible in Rev 17v8 also implies that names are written or not written in the book of life since the foundation of the earth (which implies to preordained unto eternal life).

But then, Jesus also warned in

Rev 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...

Here is Jesus talking, making it clear to the church, that names written in the book since the foundation of the earth can be blotted out. Does this sound to you that predestination always happen? Or that freewill determines the ultimate outcome?

Even Judas was foredained to sit on thrones and judge with the twelve in the age to come, according to Jesus.

Matthew 19v28 -Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me; In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was still among the twelve, the "ye also" when Jesus made this statement. But we all know what happened to Judas, he, by his own choice and freewill, went his own way -the way of perdition.

So much so that Jesus said concerning him, that it would have been "good for that man if he had not been born. (Matthew 26v24)

If Jesus who was predestined to die can say if He prays otherwise to be saved, contrary to predestination; the Father will grant it -it proofs freewill is more powerful than predestination.

If Jesus can say that people whose names have been written in the book of life since the foundation of the earth can still have it blotted out -it proofs freewill is more powerful than predestination.

If Judas who was given the promise and fore-ordination of being among the twelve who would sit with Christ in the age to come, still went ahead to become a son of perdition -it proofs freewill is more powerful than predestination.

All the scriptures you quoted of God choosing people unto salvation and fore-ordaining destinies are true; but so is the fact that freewill stills determines the final end and outcome.

Predestination is not cast in iron; its fulfilment is still ultimately in the hands of freewill.

Scriptures don't contradict eachother, there is indeed predestination, but so is freewill, and freewill is more powerful at the end. Names written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth can be blottet out.

Meaning it is possible for a man by his choices to refuse to accomplish or attain to something he was predestined for; something he was foreordained unto since the foundation of the earth to do, receive or attain.

Shalom

An2elect2:
Do you believe God has a chosen people? If God wants to save everybody as you think why are there many scriptures that talk about those He has chosen unto salvation? 1Peter2:9, John 15:16, Jeremiah 1:5, Deut 14:2, Ephesians 1:3,4, 2 Thess 2:14, Isaiah 43:1-3,10, 1Thess 1:4, Galatians1:15-16,etc. Can scripture contradict itself? That God wants to save everybody and also a select people is impossible and devoid of logic.

If it has been explicitly stated that God has from the beginning chosen some to salvation 2Thess 2:13 and we come across the bible verses you quoted that seem to contradict the clear teaching of election, do we play along treacherously, force ourselves to interpret them independently, separately from others and/or pretend like other scriptures do not exist?



You will answer all these questions yourself when you understand that salvation is not by choice but by grace according to God's election.

Another baloney.
Cant you just see the glowing and glaring contradictions in your statement?
What you wrote above is probably the most moronic , most contradictory, the most meaningless statement ever uttered by a christian.

It clearly demonstrates, in no small measure, that you don't even have a clue about you believe and don't believe.
Like the typical religiotard, you are just making things up as go, albeit, with no clear pattern.

ayoku777:


I quoted verses...

At least you agree that Yahweh can NOT SEE the future.

plaetton:


Another baloney.
Cant you just see the glowing and glaring contradictions in your statement?
What you wrote above is probably the most moronic , most contradictory, the most meaningless statement ever uttered by a christian.

It clearly demonstrates, in no small measure, that you don't even have a clue about you believe and don't believe.
Like the typical religiotard, you are just making things up as go, albeit, with no clear pattern.

Can i ask you? are you purposely being stupid?

An2elect2:


Can i ask you? are you purposely being stupid?

Yes honey.
And pardon me, ms Einstein.

ayoku777:


I quoted verses that explicitly shows that God is not willing for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentence, and that He would have all men to be saved. And you quoted scriptures that says God has chosen some unto salvation.

You didn't say anything, you only succeeded in implying that scriptures contradict eachother. And that's not true.

You keep claiming you read everything I've been saying since the beginning of this thread; but if you truly did, you will notice I truly believe in predestination, and that God indeed can fore-ordain a destiny.

But what is also clear from scriptures is that freewill is more powerful than predestination. A man can choose by his own freewill to not submit to predestination.

You want scriptural proof?

Jesus was called the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13v8.

Meaning His sacrificial death was predestined and pre-determined.

Also in 1Peter; it says that his death and the shedding of His blood was FOREORDAINED.

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

But even though Christ's suffering and death was foreordained before the foundation of the world; He still said in Matthew 26v53 -

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Meaning if Jesus had changed His mind about dying and requested to be rescued, the Father would have granted His request, even though it would have been contrary to what was foreordained.

Jesus still reserved the freewill and power to choose otherwise. He voluntarily submitted to predestination.

The bible in Rev 17v8 also implies that names are written or not written in the book of life since the foundation of the earth (which implies to preordained unto eternal life).

But then, Jesus also warned in

Rev 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...

Here is Jesus talking, making it clear to the church, that names written in the book since the foundation of the earth can be blotted out. Does this sound to you that predestination always happen? Or that freewill determines the ultimate outcome?

Even Judas was foredained to sit on thrones and judge with the twelve in the age to come, according to Jesus.

Matthew 19v28 -Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me; In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was still among the twelve, the "ye also" when Jesus made this statement. But we all know what happened to Judas, he, by his own choice and freewill, went his own way -the way of perdition.

So much so that Jesus said concerning him, that it would have been "good for that man if he had not been born. (Matthew 26v24)

If Jesus who was predestined to die can say if He prays otherwise to be saved, contrary to predestination; the Father will grant it -it proofs freewill is more powerful than predestination.

If Jesus can say that people whose names have been written in the book of life since the foundation of the earth can still have it blotted out -it proofs freewill is more powerful than predestination.

If Judas who was given the promise and fore-ordination of being among the twelve who would sit with Christ in the age to come, still went ahead to become a son of perdition -it proofs freewill is more powerful than predestination.

All the scriptures you quoted of God choosing people unto salvation and fore-ordaining destinies are true; but so is the fact that freewill stills determines the final end and outcome.

Predestination is not cast in iron; its fulfilment is still ultimately in the hands of freewill.

Scriptures don't contradict eachother, there is indeed predestination, but so is freewill, and freewill is more powerful at the end. Names written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth can be blottet out.

Meaning it is possible for a man by his choices to refuse to accomplish or attain to something he was predestined for; something he was foreordained unto since the foundation of the earth to do, receive or attain.

Shalom

You turned everything upside down, huh.There was no single event in the scripture that canceled what was foreordained from old. None!

plaetton:

Yes honey.
And pardon me, ms Einstein.

I thought as much. Now stay off posts that transcend your carnal brain. k?

An2elect2:


I thought as much. Now stay off posts that transcend your carnal brain. k?

Oh, pardon me again ms Einstein. I forgot that you don't have a carnal brain like me.

You have, eehhm eehhm, spiritual mind. Right?

And, Oh Oh, I read last week that 23m Nigerians might be insane without even knowing it.
Have you seen a shrink lately?

@Ayoku777
Please comment on this verse quoted by An2elect2:
2 Thess.

13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Bla bla bla!

Ayoku777 has valid biblical evidence to support his views, an2elect2 has valid biblical evidences supporting hers too.

All points to one thing: the writers of the bible erred in as many things as possible; including the omni-omni everything attributes they ascribe to God!

You guys should hold another council of Nice to review the bible. Technology, education and science has exposed a lot of frauds there-in.

plaetton:

Oh, pardon me again ms Einstein. I forgot that you don't have a carnal brain like me.

You have, eehhm eehhm, spiritual mind. Right?

And, Oh Oh, I read last week that 23m Nigerians might be insane without even knowing it.
Have you seen a shrink lately?

Get behind me platon.

Ayoku777 has failed to see beyond his "free will" idol.

5solas:
@Ayoku777
Please comment on this verse quoted by An2elect2:
2 Thess. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I think I've been clear and ambiguous enough in my posts. Let's not keep this thread unneccesarily longer than it should.

But let me indulge one last time though.

This verse you quoted is one of the several verses in the bible that proof predestination.

But look at the same chapter, two verses later;

2Thess 2v15 -Therefore brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Why the admonition to stand fast and hold to the teaching? What does it matter? Haven't they been chosen unto salvation and predestined unto eternal life? Why stand fast in what you can't fall from?

That's exactly what I've been saying; predestination is not cast in iron. Predestination is not the guarantee of its fulfilment. Freewill is still stronger than predestination.

That someone has been predestined unto salvation and eternal life doesn't mean he can't still be lost.

If predestination unto eternal life is the sure guarantee of not being lost; the same Paul who made the statement in that 2Thess 2v13, would not have made this statement in;

1Cor 9v27 -But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.

Meaning that to Paul, the possibilty of being lost or being a castaway remained a clear and present danger, despite Him being among the remnant Jews saved by election through faith.

And for this reason He kept his body under subjection and brought it into submission.

This "predestination always happens" mantra is the flip-side of the false doctrine "once saved always saved".

Having names written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth is proof of predestination.

And having names written in the book of life blotted out is proof that predestination is no guarantee of fulfilment.

There is predestination and there is freewill; and freewill is stronger than predestination ultimately.

There is no where in scripture, even in the epistles of the apostles that created the impression that being predestined unto salvation means you cannot be lost no matter what.

Jesus warned in;

Rev 3v11 -Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

If being predestined unto a crown of life is the guarantee of receiving it, will Jesus warn us saying ...that no man take thy crown?

No one is saying there is no predestination, no one is even saying its not a great and thankful honour to be predestined unto the adoption of sons and unto salvation.

But what is equally clear from scripture is that:

Predestined names can be blotted out. Rev 3v5

Predestined crowns can be taken. Rev 3v11

Predestined thrones can be vacated. Matt 19v28

...by the actions and choices of the person predestined.

We can go round and round, but it is clear from scripture that predestination is not cast in iron. Predestination is not the guarantee of its fulfilment.

Freewill is and will ultimately be stronger than predestination.

Shalom!

An2elect2:


Get behind me plaetton.

Well wouldn't you like that

An2elect2:


Get behind me platon.

I am right behind you honey.

ayoku777:


I think I've been clear and ambiguous enough in my posts. Let's not keep this thread unneccesarily longer than it should.

But let me indulge one last time though.

No, you've not. Your posts have shown that you lack understanding of the subject matter.

This verse you quoted is one of the several verses in the bible that proof predestination.

But look at the same chapter, two verses later;

2Thess 2v15 -Therefore brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Why the admonition to stand fast and hold to the teaching? What does it matter? Haven't they been chosen unto salvation and predestined unto eternal life? Why stand fast in what you can't fall from?

At this stage you have to tell us what you think is the motive for a righteous life. If the motive is hell / fear of hell alone, then you have a point. If it is hell /fear of hell and love and gratitude to God then your point diminishes. If however neither hell nor fear of hell is a motive (for the believer), then you have virtually no point, for while this world continues, love for God and gratitude to Him will continue to motivate believers. Not to talk of rewards for service to God!

That's exactly what I've been saying; predestination is not cast in iron. Predestination is not the guarantee of its fulfilment. Freewill is still stronger than predestination.

That someone has been predestined unto salvation and eternal life doesn't mean he can't still be lost.

If predestination unto eternal life is the sure guarantee of not being lost; the same Paul who made the statement in that 2Thess 2v13, would not have made this statement in;

You lack understanding, sadly. Predestination is rejected by others like you who believe salvation can be lost, for the very reason that they believe if it exists, it is cast in stone .

1Cor 9v27 -But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.

Meaning that to Paul, the possibilty of being lost or being a castaway remained a clear and present danger, despite Him being among the remnant Jews saved by election through faith.

And for this reason He kept his body under subjection and brought it into submission.

So how does your understanding of this verse not contradict his clear teaching that salvation is, by grace and not by works?

This "predestination always happens" mantra is the flip-side of the false doctrine "once saved always saved".

I don't know what you mean by "predestination always happens" not to talk of its mantra.
It is because you have made up your mind, you've been deceived that "once saved always saved" is false, that you war against the truths by which you can arrive at that conclusion. You have made your conclusions before the facts, now you distort the facts to be secure in your error/false conclusions.

Having names written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth is proof of predestination.

True.

And having names written in the book of life blotted out is proof that predestination is no guarantee of fulfilment.

Even babes will laugh at you for this, nay, even atheists do, and rightly too!

There is predestination and there is freewill; and freewill is stronger than predestination ultimately.

I don't know why you can't talk of the will of man without tagging ''free'' to it. It is probably the reason you are deceived by that empty term.
To answer you, God's determination (for this is what predestination amounts to) cannot be weaker than the will or determination of man. Nor can what God purposed before the world was made depend for its fulfillment on the will of man, rather man's will bends for the fulfillment of God's will.

Matt. 11
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

There is no where in scripture, even in the epistles of the apostles that created the impression that being predestined unto salvation means you cannot be lost no matter what.

Jesus warned in;

Rev 3v11 -Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

If being predestined unto a crown of life is the guarantee of receiving it, will Jesus warn us saying ...that no man take thy crown?

If our crowns are our crowns indeed, and not our salvation, why wont He?
Salvation is the basic gift. There are other gifts that are rewards for obedience/service.

No one is saying there is no predestination, no one is even saying its not a great and thankful honour to be predestined unto the adoption of sons and unto salvation.

That is precisely what Ayoku777 has been saying. The believer has no guarantee of salvation and must live as though the sword of Damocles is just above their heads. Yea, live in more fear than that they had before believing!

But what is equally clear from scripture is that:

Predestined names can be blotted out. Rev 3v5

Predestined crowns can be taken. Rev 3v11

Predestined thrones can be vacated. Matt 19v28

...by the actions and choices of the person predestined.

We can go round and round, but it is clear from scripture that predestination is not cast in iron. Predestination is not the guarantee of its fulfilment.

Rantings.

Freewill is and will ultimately be stronger than predestination.

Shalom!

If common sense does not tell you that man's will is not stronger than God's then let it tell you that God's will as it comes first , is the cause of man's will and that man's will as it comes after God's is the effect of God's will.
Let it teach you also that, God's foreknowledge does not depend on man's will but that man must act according to God's foreknowledge.

5solas:

No, you've not. Your posts have shown that you lack understanding of the subject matter.


At this stage you have to tell us what you think is the motive for a righteous life. If the motive is hell / fear of hell alone, then you have a point. If it is hell /fear of hell and love and gratitude to God then your point diminishes. If however neither hell nor fear of hell is a motive (for the believer), then you have virtually no point, for while this world continues, love for God and gratitude to Him will continue to motivate believers. Not to talk of rewards for service to God!


You lack understanding, sadly. Predestination is rejected by others like you who believe salvation can be lost, for the very reason that they believe if it exists, it is cast in stone .


So how does your understanding of this verse not contradict his clear teaching that salvation is, by grace and not by works?



I don't know what you mean by "predestination always happens" not to talk of its mantra.
It is because you have made up your mind, you've been deceived that "once saved always saved" is false, that you war against the truths by which you can arrive at that conclusion. You have made your conclusions before the facts, now you distort the facts to be secure in your error/false conclusions.


True.


Even babes will laugh at you for this, nay, even atheists do, and rightly too!


I don't know why you can't talk of the will of man without tagging ''free'' to it. It is probably the reason you are deceived by that empty term.
To answer you, God's determination (for this is what predestination amounts to) cannot be weaker than the will or determination of man. Nor can what God purposed before the world was made depend for its fulfillment on the will of man, rather man's will bends for the fulfillment of God's will.






If our crowns are our crowns indeed, and not our salvation, why wont He?
Salvation is the basic gift. There are other gifts that are rewards for obedience/service.


That is precisely what Ayoku777 has been saying. The believer has no guarantee of salvation and must live as though the sword of Damocles is just above their heads. Yea, live in more fear than that they had before believing!


Rantings.


If common sense does not tell you that man's will is not stronger than God's then let it tell you that God's will as it comes first , is the cause of man's will and that man's will as it comes after God's is the effect of God's will.
Let it teach you also that, God's foreknowledge does not depend on man's will but that man must act according to God's foreknowledge.

Well said. Amen.

It beats me to think that someone who is scripturally well read, will bring God to a position below His creature.

An2elect2:
It beats me to think that someone who is scripturally well read, will bring God to a position below His creature.

Not only you, at this rate of thinking by them, someone may be saved without God knowing about it .

5solas:

Not only you, at this rate of thinking by them, someone may be saved without God knowing about it .

I tire for this people o.

I said I wouldn't reply any comment on this thread again.

But the Lord spoke this to me clearly as I was about to exit; and I felt it could help someone.

He said;

“It is not divine justice for me to reward or condemn you for what I made you do.”

ayoku777:
I said I wouldn't reply any comment on this thread again.

But the Lord spoke this to me clearly as I was about to exit; and I felt it could help someone.

He said;

“It is not divine justice for me to reward or condemn you for what I made you do.”

The Lord told you! So on that basis we should set apart the truth we see in scripture? Truth is you are in delusion. I don't mean it as an offence, but, there it is. You have defended "freewill" so poorly. Men that end up in hell are justly condemned for their sins. The whole world deserved condemnation. The Lord in His wisdom decided to save some. Your annoyance is that he should have saved all. It is His prerogative to do with His own what He would. So quit complaining. He is the potter and we are the clay. This is what the Lord is saying to me.

5solas:
The Lord told you! So on that basis we should set apart the truth we see in scripture? Truth is you are in delusion. I don't mean it as an offence, but, there it is. You have defended "freewill" so poorly. Men that end up in hell are justly condemned for their sins. The whole world deserved condemnation. The Lord in His wisdom decided to save some. Your annoyance is that he should have saved all. It is His prerogative to do with His own what He would. So quit complaining. He is the potter and we are the clay. This is what the Lord is saying to me.

Jesus also talks about those who will be the greatest in the kingdom and those who will be the least.

Since according to you man has no freewill; does God also predestine christians who will be the greatest in His kingdom and those who will be the least? Or He only predestines those who will go to heaven and let's your freewill determine your reward and position in heaven?

If man has no freewill, and everything we choose to do is the will of God masquerading as our will; is it God then that predestines some christians to remain carnal and some to serve Him zealously?

Carnal christians that still engaging in fornication and every vices; is it predestination also? Since man has no freewill.

And yet you claim I'm defending things poorly.

I'm the one that has been showing from scripture where a man predestined to die said if he prays contrary to it, God will honour it.

I'm the one that has shown in scripture, where a man ordained to sit on thrones and judge nations, became a son of perdition.

I'm the one that has shown in scripture where Jesus warned christians whose names have been written in the book of life that it can be blotted out.

All you do is react emotionally to my points. You don't rebut them or give me your own explanation of those verses.

I said writing names in the book of life from the foundation of the earth proofs predestination. You agreed.

Then I said blotting out names written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth proofs that predestination is not always fulfilled. You disagreed but didn't give your own interpretation of that verse.

What's your own interpretation of blotting names from the book of life; in relation to predestination and fulfilment?

Don't get emotional. This is issue of doctrine as revealed by scripture, remove emotionalism from it.

Just answer.

5solas:
The Lord told you! So on that basis we should set apart the truth we see in scripture? Truth is you are in delusion. I don't mean it as an offence, but, there it is. You have defended "freewill" so poorly. Men that end up in hell are justly condemned for their sins. The whole world deserved condemnation. The Lord in His wisdom decided to save some. Your annoyance is that he should have saved all. It is His prerogative to do with His own what He would. So quit complaining. He is the potter and we are the clay. This is what the Lord is saying to me.

Ok let me get something straight here... According to you, Your God condemned the whole world and then decided to save a few?

simplex2:
Bla bla bla!

Ayoku777 has valid biblical evidence to support his views, an2elect2 has valid biblical evidences supporting hers too.

All points to one thing: the writers of the bible erred in as many things as possible; including the omni-omni everything attributes they ascribe to God!

You guys should hold another council of Nice to review the bible. Technology, education and science has exposed a lot of frauds there-in.

And perhaps write and updated and meaning version that would be more meaningful to the y2k generation.

“It is not divine justice for me to reward or condemn you for what I made you do.”

Rev 22v12 -And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to everyman according as HIS WORK shall be.

John 3v19 -And this is condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Reward is given to everyman according to his works. And condemnation is on account of men CHOOSING darkness over light.

The light of God (Jesus) came for everyone, not for a few.

John 3v17 -For God. Sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him MIGHT BE SAVED.

Salvation by grace is for all men.

Titus 2v11 - For the grace of God that bringeth slavation HATH APPEARED TO ALL MEN.

People are condemned by their own choices. God doesn't impose salvation on anyone; He can only offer it. Its your choice to accept or reject the offer.

Jesus doesn't badge in. He stands at the door and knock. We choose to let him in, or we leave Him to keep knocking until its too late for us.

Rev 3v20 -Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: IF ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him and he with me.

Jesus can only stand at the door and knock. We choose to hear and open.

You guys keep contradicting yourselves. You fail to see how double tongued you God/bible is. Why wouldn't you argue and prove prove how poorly the Bible have been written yet purposely fail to see it.

It is either God knows the future and what he knows must come to pass or he does not know anything and is doing trial and error just like anyone of us or he has no idea why you guys waste ur life calling his name every time.

Mr. Ayoku.... What is the use of predestination when your God knows that free will will/can overshadow it? In your bid to explain the unexplainable, u are making your God sound silly.