9inches:


Saints are human beings who lived holy lives in obedience to God’s will and are now in heaven, the destination that we saints on earth are in hope striving to reach.

Do you know what Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus means? Explain what you understand by that term.

9inches:


Catholics believe in this verse: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle (2 Thessalonians 2:15)." Unfortunately, Martin Luther have brainwashed you guys to not believe in all the scripture. Protestants are masters of cherry-picking the Word of God instead of believing all of it.

brocab:
You did say only those who know the apostles, then that leaves you out-you can't even accept the Holy Spirit, let alone personality knowing the apostles.
{1 Thessalonians 5:21-22} Paul said: Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test all things. Hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.…
{2 Thessalonians 2:15} So then, brothers (and sisters), stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” Paul urges the Thessalonians to “not be easily shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter…” They were not to be deceived by anyone or any false word or practice {vs. 3} They were being disturbed by reports that the Lord had come {vs. 1} The Thessalonians had become Christians through the preaching of the Apostle Paul {Acts 17:1–9}
The church at Thessalonica comprised Jews and Gentiles, They then imitated Paul and the Lord {1 Thessalonians 1:6, 2:14}
The Gospel had come to them in power and by the Holy Spirit with full conviction {1 Thessalonians 1:5}
They not only had received God’s Word with joy, but also were spreading the Gospel themselves, and they had gained a reputation for their evangelizing {1 Thessalonians 1:8}
So they received what Paul told them and then spread it everywhere they went. The power of the Word rests in the power of a transformed life. The Gospel saves and delivers. Paul tells the Thessalonians that when they received the Gospel from Paul and his companions, they actually received the Word not as from men but as the Word of God {1 Thessalonians 2:13}
Paul’s traditions then would have to do with what he passed on to them, either as something directly from the Old Testament or something that he said or wrote. Think of the offices of elders and deacons in the early church. They are grounded in the Old Testament practices and teaching, yet in the New Testament, are completely new.
In the Old Testament, the prophets and scribes taught and the priests ministered or served. In the church, the elders teach and the deacons serve.
So really the Catholic Church is based on Church tradition, these are not because they are any use for anybody outside the Church-just traditions you have been taught-from childhood-It's just like today the Christian Church is being inundated by new ideas, new traditions, Paul preached tradition to keep the Church in order. Nothing more then that. But Catholic's believe traditions of works brings them closer to God..

brocab:
So really the Catholic Church is based on Church tradition, these are not because they are any use for anybody outside the Church-just traditions you have been taught-from childhood-It's just like today the Christian Church is being inundated by new ideas, new traditions, Paul preached tradition to keep the Church in order. Nothing more then that. But Catholic's believe traditions of works brings them closer to God..

brocab:
Dead saints a dead saints, how they once lived-who knows-God knows. I prefer to pray for the living, because the God I serve, is the God of the living, He is not the God of the dead.
You should pray to God and ask Him why you believe you are unequal to brocab..

brocab:
Martin Luther must of brainwashed the Pope too..
I see what Thessalonians say's, but you didn't explain what are the traditons Paul is speaking about?

9inches:

Luther was a heretic. He died a heretic, so he won't be canonized a saint by the Catholic Church, but we can have ecumenical engagements with Lutherans of today because it was not their own making they became Lutherans.

The tradition is how the church teaches the word of God and laying of hands (commissioning preachers to preach) from generation to generation. The word of God can be perfectly taught without the bible because the apostles did not use any bible. Jesus did not leave them any written document when He was leaving.

Have you accepted that Paul never said hold on to Scripture only?

9inches:
What do you mean by "dead". Didn't Jesus die?

9inches:
Check the meaning of Apostolic Succession. If Paul and other apostles taught the Thessalonians, how would you compare yourself to the Thessalonians in terms of understanding what Paul taught? Even with a PhD in biblical studies there is no way you can understand have a clearer understanding of what is in the scripture.

You are conflating 2 Thess 2:15 with 2 Thess 2:2. Another evidence of you making mockery of the Word of God.


If you want to know about the Catholic church, go to Catholic source. Even if you use straw man argument to make up what you think the Church is, you are only demolishing your own straw man. You lose the argument because you are not arguing what the other person is saying; you are only making up the other person's argument by yourself and then countering it by yourself. It's not helping you.

brocab:
If this is your way to describe tradition that the apostles taught, then I follow tradition, I also pray for the living, lay hands on the sick, and believe the Lord when He had said: go out unto all the nations and preach the gospel.
But when the Church refuses to teach the Word of God-from the bible-I then carry out my own task, and study the bible knowing, that when I search, I find that all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…{2 Timothy 3:16-17}
But without the bible; who would know God really exist?

brocab:
Jesus died and risen, He is the same yesterday today and forever. Are the saints alive: can they eat and drink?
{Hebrews 13:7-8} Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

brocab:
I don't really want to know about the Catholic Church-I have listened, to much already-after having this conversation with you, your response, had actually pushed me further away "Your Angry Anderson, mentality, how you approach anybody for instants about God, really: you couldn't win souls-not with any of the knowledge you believe, you know..

9inches:
The Jews probably wouldn't have killed Jesus if their feelings weren't hurt. They placed feelings and arrogance over truth. But unfortunately for them, they killed the body but they couldn't kill the Truth.

9inches:


Willful ignorance. You're so scared to confront the Truth. Hard to find out all you've been sold and believe has been all lies.

Wait for me to serve you milk and honey, and probably sing you lullaby before you realize the lies you have been living in. I only respond how you respond; no one is buying your sob story. The Jews probably wouldn't have killed Jesus if their feelings weren't hurt. They placed feelings and arrogance over truth. But unfortunately for them, they killed the body but they couldn't kill the Truth.

9inches:
"You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies (1 Corr 15:36).

(1 Corinthians 15:42-49) "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption"

The Saints are alive in heaven.

9inches:
So without the bible you would still have the Catholic Church, but without the Catholic Church you would never have bible. It's easy to understand, the Church has existed before the bible [gospel] was written and subsequently compiled.

brocab:
If I wanted to follow after Church traditions, I will go to Church, and I will obey the rules, "But to obey tradition from a Church I don't attend, "really" is this your only support, threatening me because I won't bow down with you.

{2 Thessalonians 2:12-13} because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.…
Really" you are blaming the Jews-it was prophesied, what the Jews done before and after, Jesus, and it was fulfilled, don't you realise God send's delusions to all those refusing the truth, not just the Jews.
God answers prayers, He send's in the authority of priest pastors Governments etc,, God gives His people the desires of their hearts.
Just look around you! You believe-everyone outside the Catholic Church are delusional, well look at it from our prospective, about you..But remember this>{Hebrews 8:10-12} This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more.”…

brocab:
Was Jesus ever called a saint?
All do you prefer to pray to saint's that had passed away: these you believe can save you, plus what evidence do we have that these saint's buried under the Vatican or laying in class coffins, are even in Heaven?
Or is it better to pray straight to somebody who we know, is alive and well sitting on the throne of God: praying directly to "He" asking "He" to give thee the desires of our hearts. {Hebrews 4:15-16}

brocab:

The thought of God wouldn't have entered my heart mind or soul, and the Catholic Church wouldn't have even existed, if it wasn't for the apostles who were filled in the Holy Spirit to write the manuscripts in the first place.
I suppose when the pyramids where built, the thought of traditional slavery, would be in place, if we had relied on the Catholic Church to see us through, we will be in no-man's land, eating the crumbs of the floor from the rich man's table.
You really believe the Catholic Church is heaven on earth: God's second throne, sits in the Vatican: the Jews filled prophesy, but it was Rome that nailed Jesus to the cross.

9inches:
No one laid hands on you, so like all your pastors, you have no authority to lead a church or act as a commissioned authority. All the apostles were laid hands on. The apostles in turn laid hands on anyone they were sending to lead the Church or evangelize. That chain of laying of hands continued till this day. So unless an authority laid hands on you, you are not officially commissioned by Jesus Christ to represent Him as a clergy and so can not become an authority on your own.

The Church never refuse to teach the Word of God. It's only devil's arrogance and pride that makes people separate from the Church. The Church's teachings are in line with the Word of God as written in the bible and as well taught by the apostles during the early days of the Church before. Arguing the bible with the Catholic Church is like arguing the Word of God with apostle Paul or Timothy.

@bolded, the answer to that is Catholics! Because the Gospel was preached not read to the early Christians. Jesus gathered a group of men, taught, prepared them and commanded them to go and preach the Gospel. He did not leave them any book; he did not ask them to write any book. The apostles only wrote out of necessity, and what they wrote were mostly reminders of what they already preached orally. This means that the people who received both the oral and written teaching have more knowledge and understanding of the message than those whose knowledge are limited to the written message only.

For almost 400 years, the Christians of those days had no bible to refer to. Therefore, the Church that Jesus Himself had set up had to primarily transmit His Word orally (some rare individual manuscripts did exist, but were mainly limited to Churches, and not considered divinely inspired as sacred scripture until 382 AD).

So without the bible you would still have the Catholic Church, but without the Catholic Church you would never have bible. It's easy to understand, the Church has existed before the bible [gospel] was written and subsequently compiled.

9inches:
How did you know what Catholics believe in?

9inches:

It's your choice, whether you want to belong in the Body of Christ or not. It's your conscience judging you, and you think I'm the one threatening you.

9inches:

You seem not to read my comments. You gloss over them.

brocab:
Every time you write, you can't help yourself, you boast about the Catholic's.

brocab:
Judgement day, starts at the Church-and because of this, I believe you are delusional-I believe God have given you the desires of your heart, "and I believe there's good reason why-you have chosen to believe the delusion-because the Roman Catholic Church has exalted Mary to an incredibly higher level then Jesus.
Roman Catholic teaches-Mary brings us the gifts of Eternal Salvation: Mary is worshipped: Mary sits at the right hand of Christ: Mary Delivers our souls from death: Mary is Advocate, Helper, Mediatrix. Entrust our cares to Mary: Mary is the Queen over all things!
Enough said-this is why I don't belong, to Roman Catholic theology.

brocab:
The only problem I am having with your remarks, is, most of the time, you expect me to read about tradition rather then read the Word of God.
Most of the time I comeback to you quickly, but this time I didn't..Mostly because, you comeback with unbiblical, none scriptural tradition-you claim to be a Christian-but your main focus is Mary and the apostles, less focus on Christ..
You refuse everything I have told you about bible knowledge, you can't accept the Word of God-you have been taught tradition, and nothing else will penetrate through that..
If you are expecting me to learn about anything, then Christ is always the centre of the conversation., Without Christ, you haven't a leg to stand on, anybody that expects someone to learn about religion or tradition, then Christ is always the main attraction..
You must know by now-we don't follow the same tradition-to you-Mary is the centre of everything-to me-Christ is the centre! "The Mary that's written in the bible, is not the same Mary-you worship by Roman tradition.."We actually worship and pray too, two different God's..

9inches:
That's how you know what Catholics believe?

9inches:
You're the one jumping around fretting over Mary. I knew that since your could not understand simple teaching of Paul about Scripture and Tradition and how the Word of God is supposed to be taught, and also to help you understand there is no salvation outside the Church because salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. This should be easier for you to understood first of all before your deliberate diversionary tactics to evade the truth.

(John 15:22) "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin." You've been spoken to, you now have no excuse for following Martin Luther.

brocab:
Yes through you, and the many Catholic's I have spoken to in the passed, I have even retrieved my info from those sites you had given me.
If the Catholic's read the bible-instead of searching through other literature, then everything they say, would be correct.
But the problem,is, just like you, you don't believe in the Word of God well enough to search through the scriptures, you expect me to believe every word you say: and not every Word God says.
It seems you don't know what these sites hold-and what information I had retrieved from them-the main issue here is, I have found these sites, full of Catholic's having their own appointed opinions, just to be recognised on the net.
None of it, has anything to do with God..

9inches:
Are you saying 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is not correct? Do you still believe the verse says Scripture alone?

How are you sure what you heard from those people including me is authoritative teaching of the Church?

brocab:
Is Catholicism a false religion? Are Catholics saved?"
Let study and find the right answer to this very question: The most crucial problem with the Roman Catholic Church is its belief that faith alone in Christ is not sufficient for salvation.
The Bible clearly and consistently states that receiving Jesus Christ as Savior, by grace through faith, grants salvation {John 1:12; 3:16,18,36; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10,13; Ephesians 2:8-9}.
The Roman Catholic Church rejects this.
The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that a person must believe in Jesus Christ AND be baptized AND receive the Eucharist along with the other sacraments AND obey the decrees of the Roman Catholic Church AND perform meritorious works AND not die with any mortal sins AND etc., etc., etc.
Catholic divergence from the Bible on this most crucial of issues, salvation, means that yes, Catholicism is a false religion.
If a person believes what the Catholic Church officially teaches, he/she will not be saved. Any claim that works or rituals must be added to faith in order for salvation to be achieved is a claim that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to fully purchase our salvation.
While salvation by faith is the most crucial issue, in comparing Roman Catholicism with the Word of God, there are many other differences and contradictions as well.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches many doctrines that are in disagreement with what the Bible declares. These include apostolic succession, worship of saints or Mary, prayer to saints or Mary, the pope / papacy, infant baptism, transubstantiation, plenary indulgences, the sacramental system, and purgatory.
While Catholics claim Scriptural support for these concepts, none of these teachings have any solid foundation in the clear teaching of Scripture. These concepts are based on Catholic tradition, not the Word of God. In fact, they all clearly contradict Biblical principles.
At the same time, the Catholic Church also leads many people away from a genuine faith relationship with Christ.
The unbiblical beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic Church have often given the enemies of Christ opportunity to blaspheme.
The Roman Catholic Church is not the church that Jesus Christ established.
It is not a church that is based on the teachings of the Apostles (as described in the Book of Acts and the New Testament epistles).
While Jesus’ words in {Mark 7:9} were directed towards the Pharisees, they accurately describe the Roman Catholic Church, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!”

The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that a person must believe in Jesus Christ AND be baptized AND receive the Eucharist along with the other sacraments AND obey the decrees of the Roman Catholic Church AND perform meritorious works AND not die with any mortal sins

9inches:
Again, the person who wrote this does not know what the Catholic Church teaches. You copied someone else's argument from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yptbDYKmFc

brocab:
And what was Paul's teachings, he taught the tradition on the Word of God, and how you must receive the Holy Spirit and go out unto all the nations and preach the gospel.
{2 Thessalonians 2:15} So then, brothers (and sisters), stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” Paul urges the Thessalonians to “not be easily shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter…” They were not to be deceived by anyone or any false word or practice {vs. 3}
They were being disturbed by reports that the Lord had come {vs. 1} The Thessalonians had become Christians through the preaching of the Apostle Paul {Acts 17:1–9}
The church at Thessalonica comprised Jews and Gentiles, They then imitated Paul and the Lord {1 Thessalonians 1:6, 2:14}
The Gospel had come to them in power and by the Holy Spirit with full conviction {1 Thessalonians 1:5}
They not only had received God’s Word with joy, but also were spreading the Gospel themselves, and they had gained a reputation for their evangelizing {1 Thessalonians 1:8}
So they received what Paul told them and then spread it everywhere they went. The power of the Word rests in the power of a transformed life. The Gospel saves and delivers. Paul tells the Thessalonians that when they received the Gospel from Paul and his companions, they actually received the Word not as from men but as the Word of God {1 Thessalonians 2:13}
Paul’s traditions then would have to do with what he passed on to them, either as something directly from the Old Testament or something that he said or wrote. Think of the offices of elders and deacons in the early church.
They are grounded in the Old Testament practices and teaching, yet in the New Testament, are completely new.{Just like you are}
In the Old Testament, the prophets and scribes taught and the priests ministered or served. In the church, the elders teach and the deacons serve.
So really the Catholic Church is based on Church tradition, these are not because they are any use for anybody outside the Church-just traditions you have been taught-from childhood-It's just like today the Christian Church is being inundated by new ideas, new traditions, Paul preached tradition to keep the Church in order. Nothing more then that. But Catholic's believe traditions of works brings them closer to God..

http://www.abidingfruit.com/hold-to-the-traditions-2-thessalonians-215/

The word tradition is defined as “the transmission of beliefs or customs from one generation to another,” or as “a long established custom passed on.” A tradition is viewed as something important and worthwhile. Some traditions are good and others are bad. We can make good use of traditions and we can also abuse them. Traditions imply longevity. They have been around for a while.