Take a look at how they plan to end the recession.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjcyODIyZGM2MGU1ZDdkNDgxZDc3OTNjYjM4ZDY1ODI=#pork

what is your own alternative solution?

That was only informational for people that might want to know. I do not have a proposal against what they have included in the spending bill and I think the vision and the ideal is commendable, but the methodology and the plan of execution is shallow and the absense of a well thought out implementation plan will end up becoming the nemesis of the whole rescue.

I am a proponent of using practical hands-on approach with steady footing to treat mundane problems. There is too much fluff and no one can give you a end to end walkthrough of the plan as it is now.

Negro_Ntns:

That was only informational for people that might want to know. I do not have a proposal against what they have included in the spending bill and I think the vision and the ideal is commendable, but the methodology and the plan of execution is shallow and the absense of a well thought out implementation plan will end up becoming the nemesis of the whole rescue.

I am a proponent of using practical hands-on approach with steady footing to treat mundane problems. There is too much fluff and no one can give you a end to end walkthrough of the plan as it is now.

what is your alternative? Talk is cheap.

You dont have a proposal BUT think the present plan is "outrageous", "fluff", "shallow", "not well thought out"?

You think this crisis is "mundane"? You think the present strategy is not "practical" and not "hands-on"?

Before you make those conclusions it must be because you have compared it to a more workable solution no? Or as usual you are merely making high sounding statements you cant defend?

That's your opinion. I have stated mine. If it disturbs you then thats your headache, not mine.

Negro_Ntns:

That's your opinion. I have stated mine. If it disturbs you then thats your headache, not mine.

You didnt state an opinion, you merely thrashed a proposal then admitted you didnt have an alternative.

A stimulus plan is all about SPENDING!!!!

That's the point.

SPEND SPEND SPEND

stop thinking from an African Framework. It does not work in Amerikka.

Amerikka is all about CONSUMERISM.

Which means when America is SPENDING, Everbody is happy.

Currently nobody is spending that means terrible consequences for 2nd and 3rd world countries.

After all you do get your 2nd hand clothes from Americans. If they don't buy new ones - Africa does not get new clothes to sell.

DUH!

Negro_Ntns:

That was only informational for people that might want to know. I do not have a proposal against what they have included in the spending bill and I think the vision and the ideal is commendable, but the methodology and the plan of execution is shallow and the absense of a well thought out implementation plan will end up becoming the nemesis of the whole rescue.

I am a proponent of using practical hands-on approach with steady footing to treat mundane problems. There is too much fluff and no one can give you a end to end walkthrough of the plan as it is now.

here they go again. proponents of confusion. rejected by americans on nov 4th, they cant let go . . . . .

what exaclty do u mean by "practical hands-on approach with steady footing to treat mundane problems"? i.e apart from confusion which u have effectively represented in nairaland for the past 5 or more months

pres-elect:

here they go again. proponents of confusion. rejected by americans on nov 4th, they cant let go . . . . .

what exaclty do u mean by "practical hands-on approach with steady footing to treat mundane problems"? i.e apart from confusion which u have effectively represented in nairaland for the past 5 or more months

i wonder if he will provide us a clue as to this "approach" he touts.

these guys take pride in ignorance

even republican governors support this bill, republican mayors support the bill but those ones in congress, for some inexplicable reasons . . . just wont agree . . perhaps obama may do well by going to rush lumbaugh to ask him to command his pupets to act with wisdom.

they want a bill reminiscent of bush. . . . bush whom they were afraid to mention during the elections. . .

The same Mccain now thrashing the stimulus was the same one who "suspended" his campaign to go "work on" a $750bn bailout for banks? Seriously these clowns shld be forced to retire and stop disturbing us with their senility.

At $850bn, Obama's stimulus is only $100bn more than the bailout McCain went to "fight for" in Washington . . . and how was that managed? McCain tells us it was mismanaged . . . welcome to rethuglican politics.

lol . . . . . . . old john . . . .

i'm just on my knees praying and fasting for those republicans to nominate sarah pallin in 20I2 elections

Judge for yourself . . .

Pres,

Democrat or Republican, it does not matter; if you look in those 50 items and you are not disturbed then I would love to know who you are in person so that when you run for any political office in Nigeria or anywhere else on the planet I can represent you effectively as a callous nitwit who is not only inept but more than likely 180 degrees out of alignment with any divine guidance and thus is unqualified to lead anyone beside his wife and children.

Go review that list and then come back here and speak up so I can hear your new opinion clearly!

without trying to sound rude, i only need to be a little bit less intelligent than a goat to understand the urgency of the situation in america and to know that the republicans are ''complaining about the safety of tissue paper in a china-shop that is on fire''

all that talk about STD and condoms, and minor issues that amount to a few millions in a plan of almost a trillion dollars holding up a bill. . . .

some republican (negro-ntns's hero?) even said there was too much spending in the bill . . . . . . . abeg who sabi laugh? tell that dude that the stimulus is all about spending. consumerism runs the US economy. . . .that is the way to create jobs. . . . .

stimulus is all about spending. consumerism runs the US economy. . . .that is the way to create jobs. . . . .

No Kidding, I thought it was about savings!! I'm glad for your tutoring mister. Hmm. . .

Negro_Ntns:

I'm glad for your tutoring mister. Hmm. . .

No stress, it is free of charge for those who need it badly

@ Negro-nuts.
No Kidding, I thought it was about savings

Saving is to China what  French fries are to America

@topic,

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

The House last week passed a bill totaling about $820 billion while the Senate is working on a proposal reaching about $900 billion in spending increases and tax cuts.

But Republicans and some moderate Democrats have balked at the size of the bill and at some of the spending items included in it, arguing they won't produce immediate jobs, which is the stated goal of the bill.

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill -- forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

CBO did project the bill would create jobs, though by 2011 the effects would be minuscule. - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/04/cbo-obama-stimulus-harmful-over-long-haul/

Another cut and paste job. 

Unfortunately no one tells us what the ramifications of doing nothing would be. The last 3 paragraphs of the CBO report is very instructive for those whose only goal is to oppose without giving us alternatives.

@tayo D

. . and what did "non partisan CBO" propose?  the gallantly successful economic programmes of george bush which worked so marvellously for eight yrs that a recession was manufactured to control the success . . . .

and how come it was reported in the washington times? why washington times? ahaaaa, washington times is also a non-partisan outfit huh? . . .  

abeg change topic  . . . .

@pres-elect,

Did you read the article at all? They compared Obama's plan to what will happen if they left the market alone. That is what I have always said. Leave the market alone. I cannot invest when there is the possibility that I will be competing against a govt bailout.

You might want to find out what the CBO is all about. Of course other sources in the tank for Obama won't print the story. Anything to cast doubt on the Messiah's actions must be summarily dismissed. And by the way, There was not a single line in the article that represents the Post's opinion. This was outright reporting on an event which is what others find it difficult to do.

Tayo-D:

@pres-elect,

Did you read the article at all? They compared Obama's plan to what will happen if they left the market alone. That is what I have always said. Leave the market alone. I cannot invest when there is the possibility that I will be competing against a govt bailout.

You might want to find out what the CBO is all about. Of course other sources in the tank for Obama won't print the story. Anything to cast doubt on the Messiah's actions must be summarily dismissed. And by the way, There was not a single line in the article that represents the Post's opinion. This was outright reporting on an event which is what others find it difficult to do.

But they nor you tell us what the ramifications for leaving the market alone would mean for the recession, the millions who are out of jobs, the crashing banks, plunging stocks, poor healthcare and home foreclosures.

Isnt it just easier to pontificate from our bedrooms?

lol why would anyone leave the market alone at this point. this thing won't fix itself.

@Tayo D

the same market that is announcing steady flow of job losses? those numbers you hear everytime are not ordinary numbers. they are human beings. they are families. hope u know that?

the same market G.W.Bush and cohorts excorted into this mess. the same markets where CEOs are running to get tax payers money. the same market that is failing

what kind of do-nothing approach can solve an emergency problem? or is it not an emergency problem to you. cant you see what is happening in the US? . . . and indeed in the world? take a look bro, like i said yesterday, you only need to be a little bit less intelligent than a goat to understand this urgency.

do nothing republicans . . . .anything against obama is good. if it was sooo good how come nobody is shouting it out loud except washington times? is it not the same press that shouted down those tax dodgers that wanted to lead? why cant someone shout this out too. may be tayo D and co can go to msnbc and ask joe scarborough (another confused republican ex-congressman who lost his seat) to announce it. or the good old fox noise

. . . . . abegi

@pres-elect, bawomolo and Davidylan,

Tinkering with the market got us in this problem in the first place. So to think that further tinkering will solve the problem is to me, foolsih and stupid. Bush spent more money than any govt in US history and $800 billion was allocated to reverse bank failures and yet we see no effect but things have steadily grown worse. To now think more govt spending and manipulation of markets will solve this problem is fool-hardy.

Can you all say for sure that this plan will work? Obama is beginning to sound like Bush when this wahala started. "If the bill is not passed at so and so time, we will be faced with dire consequences." Using fear to manipulate people and promote govt spending that isn't sure of solving the problems is criminal in my opinion. And bothe Bush and Obama are just as guilty.

dude sometimes it is better to keep mute and let people wonder if you are dumb than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

bush spent excess money on what? `a useless war. did he spend on the economy? haba.

fear mongering? does obama need to make a statement for people to see what is going on? are u sure you are in the US? tayo, just slightly less intelligence than that of a goat. a goat. ewu mee-ee-ee-ee, will be enough to understand what is happening.

if loss of 67,000 jobs in one day and 500,000 jobs in a month is not fearsome enough, you must be from another planet.

good bye, let me look for human beings to interact with

@pres-elect,

I thought we were finally having a discussion on nairaland where ideas though conflicting, have not and will not lead to personality clashes.  But of course, it was too much of me to expect such a lofty ideal in a debate participant such as pres-elect. 

What you have done is nothing short of clouding your ignorance.  I am not really surprised anyway.  It is easier to manufacturer expletives than to come up with ideas.  I have explained why I think the market should be allowed to correct itself, but you are yet to explain how Obama's plan or any other one out there will stop the madness. 

You have outrightly condemned the report of the CBO which is an organisation set up to evaluate the consequences of legislation against it's intended impact.  You sure position yourself as one who ignores facts to glorify foolishness.  I am not one of those.

Now to the issue of govt action being required.  Wisdom sometimes dictates that all the action needed atimes is inaction.  The govt has actively guided the market in recent times and the market is pushing back.  It only makes sense that the market should be allowed to attain a balance that is sustainable on the long run.  Govt intervention will do nothing but create a bubble that will eventually burst.  What we are creating for the future will be worse than what is happening now.

The CBO just mentioned that the GDP will be negatively affected by Obama's stimulus package. Everyone knows that part of the stimulus package was to help create more govt infrastructure.  Govt infrastructures will need to be maintained with money.  The resulting effect is that there will be more competition for the less resources generated because of the reduction in GDP.  You wanna chart the way out of that?  That is probably too much to ask from you.  I should leave the assignment to more intellectually inclined people in your court such as bawomolo.

@Davidylan,

But they nor you tell us what the ramifications for leaving the market alone would mean for the recession, the millions who are out of jobs, the crashing banks, plunging stocks, poor healthcare and home foreclosures.

For your information, we are already in a recession. Tough times come upon people as individuals and upon nations as a whole. Tough times are indications that something is not right with the status quo, and unfortunately we are getting more of the same with Obama. Never mind what they will make us believe. The truth is that people will suffer, hopes will be dashed and fortunes will be lost and won. I know what I am talking about. I have lost up to $500,000.00 in real estate value since this wahala began and i am not sure it is not going to be more.

The market by definition does not rely on human emotions and empathy for it to operate at its optimum level. Infact, putting this into considereation kills the market, and that is what happened during Clinton's administration that Bush eventually inherited. Democrats insisted on giving loans to people not based on market dictates but on what is supposedly human empathy. See where that has brought us now. It is unfortunate that this human side is being brought into it again. The same people who caused the problem are now the people left to find a solution. It is so scary!!!!!!!

Isnt it just easier to pontificate from our bedrooms?

This is not pontification, it is common sense. Minimal govt intervention brought about this mess. Now imagine what would happen with greater govt intervention!

tayo

honestly, i had no intention to insult you. but if i did, i not only apologise, i also accept fully your assumed(rightly or wrongly) revenge in the use of the words ignorant in describing me. i am a gentle man and i dont trade insults. . . at least most of the time.

seriously, since the non-partisan CBO has become jesus christ and tayo has become a solid economist, pres-elect has chosen to be a historian. did FDR allow the market to control itself? who is glorifying foolishness here? and what in your definition, in this issue is foolishness. that which u call foolishness is sound to someone else and vice versa. but i take it u were reacting to a percieved insult from darfur. no stress.


the simple thing about market is that a textile company has money, it invests and makes more textile. if the fashion company doesnt buy, the textile company doesnt sell, and the textile company doesnt make money. they lay off workers.

history
in the early 80s, shagari and some other african leaders introduced austerity. inhibiting the importantion of certain goods from europe. one of the worst ''victims'' of the measure was the industrial midlands and northwest england. factories laid off workers in liverpool and manchester. this is simple. keep the details for the experts. spending will help stimulate the economy and create jobs. the medical analogy is blood transfusion in an anemic patient.

anyway, what do i know, i'm just and ignorant promoter of foolishness in the presence of scientific tayo and christ-like non partisan CBO which uses objective washington times and sounds like holy republicans.

have a nice day tayo. and forgive my excesses

Tayo-D:

@pres-elect, bawomolo and Davidylan,

Tinkering with the market got us in this problem in the first place. So to think that further tinkering will solve the problem is to me, foolsih and stupid. Bush spent more money than any govt in US history and $800 billion was allocated to reverse bank failures and yet we see no effect but things have steadily grown worse. To now think more govt spending and manipulation of markets will solve this problem is fool-hardy.

Can you all say for sure that this plan will work? Obama is beginning to sound like Bush when this wahala started. "If the bill is not passed at so and so time, we will be faced with dire consequences." Using fear to manipulate people and promote govt spending that isn't sure of solving the problems is criminal in my opinion. And bothe Bush and Obama are just as guilty.

When FDR did it they also thought he had run mad. Funny enough economists believe WWII got America out of the great depression and that was the era of the greatest government spending in US history.

You do-nothing folks make me laugh.

Bush got us here in the first place . . . where were you when he was demanding the passage of a bailout?

Obama is beginning to sound like Bush when this wahala started. "If the bill is not passed at so and so time, we will be faced with dire consequences." Using fear to manipulate people and promote govt spending that isn't sure of solving the problems

Tayo,

If you recall, GM and Chrysler said back in fourth quarter 08 that if they were not rescued before end of 08 they would surely go bellyup. Well, Chrysler did not get any bailout in 08 and it survived to see 09. So how did it survive, what happened? Left alone, most of these institutions that have been bailed out will eventually devise a way out of their own demise and whichever one could not do so is probably deserving to go belly up anyway and should rightly be a good riddance.