Abuamam:


If there is one religion that does not profit from undeserved resources, it is Islam. Rather it strives to give back to the poor. There is no clergy in Islam to exploit the laity... unlike one other religion that I know.

What in the world are you on about? Are you saying cultural supremecy doesn't lead to other gains, or that arabs didn't (and currently do not) seek to exploit this? You could have fooled me, considering incidences like the slave trade, which your brave and noble prophet well partook in. If that isn't access to undeserved resources I wonder what is. Or the taxing of non-muslims, I wonder what that qualifies as? And the clergy don't support this?

All the political might, with Muslims mandated to follow their version of the pope who happens to be not just an Arab, but an Arab from uncle mo's very own tribe (inb4 shias and the rest, even if they tried to break away from that nonsense they didn't get very far)

In 9ja, anyone could name an Ibo god, a Yoruba one. Hausa? Not so much. Or are you saying we had non before our Arab mastahs arrived? Curious. Even pure hausa names are harder to find than the rest, with northeners proudly naming their kids after slaving, rapacious warlords. Incapable of making the simplest decisions on their own, looking towards Arab mastahs for answers to everything. Said arab-led world even wants to rewrite the un charter to fit their needs, or form their own splinter group.

But no, Arab domination was in no way aided and actively encouraged by Islam. You're rice

wiegraf:


What in the world are you on about? Are you saying cultural supremecy doesn't lead to other gains, or that arabs didn't (and currently do not) seek to exploit this? You could have fooled me, considering incidences like the slave trade, which your brave and noble prophet well partook in. If that isn't access to undeserved resources I wonder what is. Or the taxing of non-muslims, I wonder what that qualifies as?

All the political might, with Muslims mandated to follow their version of the pope who happens to be not just an Arab, but an Arab from uncle mo's very own tribe (inb4 shias and the rest, even if they tried to break away from that nonsense they didn't get very far)

In 9ja, anyone could name an Ibo god, a Yoruba one. Hausa? Not so much. Or are you saying we had non before our Arab mastahs arrived? Curious. Even pure hausa names are harder to find than the rest, with northeners proudly naming their kids after slaving, rapacious warlords. Incapable of making the simplest decisions on their own, looking towards Arab mastahs for answers to everything. Said arab-led world even wants to rewrite the un charter to fit their needs, or form their own splinter group.

But no, Arab domination was in no way aided and actively encouraged by Islam. You're rice

Just trying to be nasty are we? Truth notwhitstanding.

Islam did not start off the slave trade. It rather put in many rules that phased it out... prohibition on making a slave out of a free person, making slave emancipation obligatory under many conditions etc.

Sure, Arabs were involved in the slave trade, but would not take Muslims as slaves, only pagans/ idol worshippers; so it destroys your thesis a little don't you think? That the mere act of converting someone to Islam, nullifies his value as a slave?

As for harping on about the jizya, it disproves your point. Conversion to Islam will immedeately cease the jizya. So how can converting people to Islam bring gain through the jizya?

...duuuh!

Abuamam:


Just trying to be nasty are we? Truth notwhitstanding.

Islam did not start off the slave trade. It rather put in many rules that phased it out... prohibition on making a slave out of a free person, making slave emancipation obligatory under many conditions etc.

Sure, Arabs were involved in the slave trade, but would not take Muslims as slaves, only pagans/ idol worshippers; so it destroys your thesis a little don't you think? That the mere act of converting someone to Islam, nullifies his value as a slave?

As for harping on about the jizya, it disproves your point. Conversion to Islam will immedeately cease the jizya. So how can converting people to Islam bring gain through the jizya?

...duuuh!

You seem to be retard.ed. This is fact, not insult mind you, as all this exactly proves my point, so I still wonder what you're on about. And what I post is no theory but fact as well, though you may be confused.

Phasing out slavery? Again, uncle mo well indulged and endorsed it. I'm not sure what you intend to get away with here. The fact that Arabs were also worshipping other gods before uncle mo put a stop to it alone should tell you something. One would imagine that if he could do away with something as ingrained as religion to a culture, he surely could have done similarly to slavery, no? But let's not even go there as, like I've already stated, he well indulged in it, and this is well known, therefore it is part of Islam. Simple. Unless, of course, you bandy about your own version of Islam which states that mo wasn't the perfectestest model human who could do no wrong. In which case, bros, you're no Muslim.

Your mentioning their not taking Muslims as slaves is why I wonder if you're retarded or not, as that's exactly my point. Either join us or be enslaved. If you join, tell me how my edicts and what not, edicts I again remind you are to be decreed by not just an Arab, but one from moh's own tribe, do not qualify as subjucating you? And I'm sure subjugation does not lead to exploitation of resources. History, the acts of your very own Arab mastahs included, does not show that.

If they refuse to become slaves, ie mentally especially by becoming Muslim drones, they can then become actual slaves. In which case they now gain access to human resources more directly. So, again, one wonders what you're on about.

Same with the tax, all a way to enslave other cultures and gain superiority. This goal is not even concealed per se; or are you denying that a goal of Islam is world domination?? Establishing the world wide caliphate?? You sure you Muslim so?

The marriage laws (men allowed to marry females from other religions but the reverse barred due to the perception that women are more easily influenced and tamed and 'weak'), the apostacy laws, all to seek domination.

So, Oga, abeg what are you on about?

wiegraf:


You seem to be retard.ed. This is fact, not insult mind you, as all this exactly proves my point, so I still wonder what you're on about. And what I post is no theory but fact as well, though you may be confused.

Thank you.

wiegraf:

Phasing out slavery? Again, uncle mo well indulged and endorsed it. I'm not sure what you intend to get away with here. The fact that Arabs were also worshipping other gods before uncle mo put a stop to it alone should tell you something. One would imagine that if he could do away with something as ingrained as religion to a culture, he surely could have done similarly to slavery, no? But let's not even go there as, like I've already stated, he well indulged in it, and this is well known, therefore it is part of Islam. Simple. Unless, of course, you bandy about your own version of Islam which states that mo wasn't the perfectestest model human who could do no wrong. In which case, bros, you're no Muslim.


Your mentioning their not taking Muslims as slaves is why I wonder if you're retarded or not, as that's exactly my point. Either join us or be enslaved. If you join, tell me how my edicts and what not, edicts I again remind you are to be decreed by not just an Arab, but one from moh's own tribe, do not qualify as subjucating you? And I'm sure subjugation does not lead to exploitation of resources. History, the acts of your very own Arab mastahs included, does not show that.

If they refuse to become slaves, ie mentally especially by becoming Muslim drones, they can then become actual slaves. In which case they now gain access to human resources more directly. So, again, one wonders what you're on about.

Same with the tax, all a way to enslave other cultures and gain superiority. This goal is not even concealed per se; or are you denying that a goal of Islam is world domination?? Establishing the world wide caliphate?? You sure you Muslim so?

The marriage laws (men allowed to marry females from other religions but the reverse barred due to the perception that women are more easily influenced and tamed and 'weak'), the apostacy laws, all to seek domination.

So, Oga, abeg what are you on about?

Your idol worshipping grandfathers sold each other as slaves before the Arabs and the whites ever knew Africa existed. Was that cultural domination too? Is your payment of tax to the government a form of subjugation and slavery? Islam made slavery humane and phased it out, regardless of your not facing the facts. Islam is a practical way of life, not some bleeding heart utopic dream.

As for 'edicts' we supposedly follow by Arab clergy, that is trash. There are more popular non-Arab mujtahids today than Arab. Many of the major past scholars thst we read, were non-Arab. So there goes that theory of yours.

There is no ideology that does not have adherents who percieve it to be the ultimate panacea... be it democracy, or communism or capitalism. Note that I mention no religion here. Ultimately, the intention is the betterment of mankind; not some evil world domination out of some cheap James Bond movie. Islam is not a corporate entity to 'profit' from its adherents. If you say there are beneficiaries from Islam, I ask you who are they? The Arabs? Their wealth is due to oil. How much is the jizya contributing to their economy? The clergy? We have none. So who benefits exactly?

Our reward is the hereafter. Simple. We have no plans for world domination. In the Quran, God says that if He wished, He could have made everyone follow Him in obedience. We know that everyone carries his/her burdens on the Day of Judgement...so if anyone likes he may heed and if not he can reject; we are indifferent. We don't knock on any doors or stand on street corners looking for converts.

Abuamam:


Thank you.



Your idol worshipping grandfathers sold each other as slaves before the Arabs and the whites ever knew Africa existed. Was that cultural domination too? Is your payment of tax to the government a form of subjugation and slavery? Islam made slavery humane and phased it out, regardless of your not facing the facts. Islam is a practical way of life, not some bleeding heart utopic dream.

As for 'edicts' we supposedly follow by Arab clergy, that is trash. There are more popular non-Arab mujtahids today than Arab. Many of the major past scholars thst we read, were non-Arab. So there goes that theory of yours.

There is no ideology that does not have adherents who percieve it to be the ultimate panacea... be it democracy, or communism or capitalism. Note that I mention no religion here. Ultimately, the intention is the betterment of mankind; not some evil world domination out of some cheap James Bond movie. Islam is not a corporate entity to 'profit' from its adherents. If you say there are beneficiaries from Islam, I ask you who are they? The Arabs? Their wealth is due to oil. How much is the jizya contributing to their economy? The clergy? We have none. So who benefits exactly?

Our reward is the hereafter. Simple. We have no plans for world domination. In the Quran, God says that if He wished, He could have made everyone follow Him in obedience. We know that everyone carries his/her burdens on the Day of Judgement...so if anyone likes he may heed and if not he can reject; we are indifferent. We don't knock on any doors or stand on street corners looking for converts.

Can you please tell us when Islam phased out slavery? Was it when mohammed was actively engaged in slave trade or after his death? Kindly explain bro. Thank you

Abuamam:


Your idol worshipping grandfathers sold each other as slaves before the Arabs and the whites ever knew Africa existed.

Hold up. It looks to me like you mean this pejoratively. Like your grandfather's gods were not good enough?

What was I just saying about cultures enslaving you?! What is wrong with you??

A suggestion: if you're going to believe a group of fairy tales, those of your ancestors are infinitely superior to those of your slave masters... This is Stockholhm Syndrome on steroids, complete with you feeling proud of yourself.

Anyhow, moving on (and hopefully I can unsee such a sad case of mind ra.pe....), supposing they did? That somehow makes your slave masters doing it right? So it's despicable when your ancestors do it but not so when your arab mastahs do it? Shouldn't the fact that your arab mastah's indulged in it tell you something??

Abuamam:


Was that cultural domination too?

YES, (assuming if true) ser obvious.

I'm waiting for the part where you show me condoning their actions....

I'm all for cultures competing but doing this via means such as slavery...really

Abuamam:


Is your payment of tax to the government a form of subjugation and slavery?

Bros, don't try to compare this with other taxes. It most certainly is a form of subjugation and domination this case. Or please, in order to avoid more long story, do tell in your own words; what is the point of the tax? Exactly why the tax? Thanks

Abuamam:

Islam made slavery humane and phased it out, regardless of your not facing the facts. Islam is a practical way of life, not some bleeding heart utopic dream.

There's humane slavery??

I'm glad you concede slavery is acceptable under islamic law though. That's a good start.

And Islam isn't 'some sort of utopic dream'?

Wasn't uncle mo's life the perfect, read; utopian, way to live life? Isn't Islam about emulating him and what not? Or are you going to deny this?

Even the first Caliphs are regarded as 'perfect', let alone uncle mo...

Abuamam:
As for 'edicts' we supposedly follow by Arab clergy, that is trash. There are more popular non-Arab mujtahids today than Arab. Many of the major past scholars thst we read, were non-Arab. So there goes that theory of yours.

I said the pope. Pope = Caliph. The final boss

islam friendly site:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The leaders are from Quraysh. The righteous among them are the leaders of the righteous, and the wicked among them are the leaders of the wicked.”
The hadîth is recoeded by al-Hâkim in his Mustadrak. It is supported by narrations in Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Nasâ’î al-Kubrâ, and Musannaf Ibn Abî Shaybah.

It has been graded as authentic by al-Albânî and Shu`ayb al-Arna’ût.

Sooooo, quraysh righteous are more righteous than the righteous of others? Even the evil are better at being evil than the evil from other tribes? That doesn't qualify as supremecy??

Curious. I mean, if I stated that a righteous yoruba man is superior a righteous ibo man, or the righteous oyinbo was superior to the righteous black, I wonder how you would interpret that.

At the very best, you can stretch it to mean this

islam friendly site:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) meant this only for a case where there is a choice between candidates. When we want to choose a supreme leader for the Muslims, we should choose someone from Quraysh. Yet, who from Quraysh should be chosen? He should be someone who adheres to the faith. It is not just a mere question of ancestry, of being able to trace your lineage back to Quraysh as a tribe or even to the Prophet (peace be upon him). There is no special distinction in this without true piety. If a iniquitous man from Quraysh comes forward and says he is entitled to the office, we would not appoint him. We would say to him that the primary consideration of a leader is that he must be just.

This is just twisting poor uncle moh's words. But even at that, doesn't change the fact that quarayshi are considered intrinsically superior to others by default. The ideal caliph would be quarayshi, no? Your own perfect mo declared this, abi you wish to deny this as well?

So when good ser Baghdadi, King of ISIS, claims he's the Caliph, a good and proper and pious Quaraysh, chosen by clergy and certainly more pious than you dudes thst seek to dilute uncle mos message, then well, his words have real weight.

More islam sites

http://www.deoband.org/2010/07/general/politics/is-it-a-condition-for-the-imam-to-be-from-quraysh/
http://islamqa.info/en/146316
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/shariah-based-systems/imamate-and-political-systems/169073-is-it-necessary-for-caliphs-to-be-from-quraish.html?Political_Systems=

more islamic sites:

Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said; and in the narration of Zuhayr: the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) conveyed; and ‘Amr said: narrating:

“People are subservient to Quraysh in this matter: the Muslims among them [being subservient] to the Muslims among them, and the disbelievers among them [being subservient] to the disbelievers among them.” (Sahih Muslim)

.....

His statement “People are subservient to Quraysh in this matter”: the ‘ulama adduced this as proof that Qurayshi [lineage] is a condition for the Imam, to the extent that some of them claimed ijma’ (consensus) on this.

I especially like this dude

muslim apologist:

"It is not required for Muslims to have a caliph always from the tribe of Quraish, or even from the Arabs. Islam is not a tribal or racist religion; it is a religion for all people and for all times."

Look at that bolded word.

Looks like he's omitting a little something something. Like the fact that not always, mostly for 'practical' reasons, but certainly ideally.

Let's not forget the 12 successors, mind

wiki:

The Prophet Muhammad said:

"Islam shall neither pass away nor be deviated while there are my 12 Caliphs/Khalifahs (successors) from my nation in it, all of them will be from Quraysh. When the last of them passes away, the Hour will be established and the earth will be destroyed (swallowed) with all its inhabitants."

So, 12 prophecized Caliphs, all Quraysh... Plus endtimez, Islam style....

Abuamam:

There is no ideology that does not have adherents who percieve it to be the ultimate panacea... be it democracy, or communism or capitalism. Note that I mention no religion here. Ultimately, the intention is the betterment of mankind; not some evil world domination out of some cheap James Bond movie. Islam is not a corporate entity to 'profit' from its adherents. If you say there are beneficiaries from Islam, I ask you who are they? The Arabs? Their wealth is due to oil. How much is the jizya contributing to their economy? The clergy? We have none. So who benefits exactly?

Our reward is the hereafter. Simple. We have no plans for world domination. In the Quran, God says that if He wished, He could have made everyone follow Him in obedience. We know that everyone carries his/her burdens on the Day of Judgement...so if anyone likes he may heed and if not he can reject; we are indifferent. We don't knock on any doors or stand on street corners looking for converts.

This here is mostly another bald faced lie, or you simply do not know your religion.

Koran Surah Al-Nur, Verse 55:


Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient.

Also, hint; like I've already intimated, your very actions betray you. The slavery of nonmuslims, taxing, barring from marriages, apostacy laws - all geared towards domination. And, once again, your oga mo is the benchmark. Abi you forget his wars of conquest? Raiding caravans and killing jews that were simply minding their business? You wonder how 'practical' islam will attain the succession to authority? lol

There's a lot more, but time abeg. I dunno why I have to teach y'all about your very own religion. Really...

wiegraf:


Hold up. It looks to me like you mean this pejoratively. Like your grandfather's gods were not good enough?

What was I just saying about cultures enslaving you?! What is wrong with you??

A suggestion: if you're going to believe a group of fairy tales, those of your ancestors are infinitely superior to those of your slave masters... This is Stockholhm Syndrome on steroids, complete with you feeling proud of yourself.

Anyhow, moving on (and hopefully I can unsee such a sad case of mind ra.pe....), supposing they did? That somehow makes your slave masters doing it right? So it's despicable when your ancestors do it but not so when your arab mastahs do it? Shouldn't the fact that your arab mastah's indulged in it tell you something??



YES, (assuming if true) ser obvious.

I'm waiting for the part where you show me condoning their actions....

I'm all for cultures competing but doing this via means such as slavery...really

Slavery was a worldwide phenomenon; used to solve the problem of what to do with prisoners of war and criminals; that had nothing to do with RELIGIOUS and cultural domination ... end.

The prophet (saw) personally freed 63 slaves; his qife Aisha 67. Over 32000 slaves were freed in the interim period in the life of the companions BY THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES. This alone shows the emphasis Islam placed on freeing slaves.

Find out more here, if you wish...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery

wiegraf:

Bros, don't try to compare this with other taxes. It most certainly is a form of subjugation and domination this case. Or please, in order to avoid more long story, do tell in your own words; what is the point of the tax? Exactly why the tax? Thanks

The Muslim zakat is a religious obligation and the 3rd pillar of Islam. Non-Muslims living under Muslim rule cannot be forced to perform what is inherently an Islamic religious obligation; hence the jizya, since they enjoy the same infrastructure enjoyed by Muslims.

“… in a treaty made by Khalid with some town in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes; ‘If we protect you, then Jizya is due to us; but we do not, then it is not.’” (Thomas Arnold, The Preaching of Islam, Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York 1913 p.61)

After the Muslims had captured Hims (Emesa) and taken the Jizya as agreed in the agreement signed when the Muslims entered the city, it was learnt that Roman Emperor Heraclius was advancing with a large army. Abu ‘Ubaida, may Allah be pleased with him, who was the Muslim commander on the Syrian front, ordered all the dues taken as Jizya to be returned to the people of the city. According to Baladhuri the people of the city were told,
“We are not able to defend you anymore and now you have complete authority over your matters.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

Al-Azdi narrates the same with the following wording;
“We have returned your wealth back to you because we detest taking your wealth and then failing to protect your land. We are moving to another area and have called upon our brethren, and then we will fight our enemy. If Allah helps us defeat them we shall fulfill our covenant with you except that you yourselves do not like it then.” (Futuh al-Sham ed. William N. Lees published by Baptist Mission Culcutta, 1854 pp. 137-138)

Al-Baladhuri quotes the response of the people of Hims;
“Verily your rule and justice is dearer to us than the tyranny and oppression in which we used to live.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

This is the purpose of the jizya, in the eyes of the companions of the prophet (saw) according to the opinion of western orientalists.

wiegraf:

There's humane slavery??

I'm glad you concede slavery is acceptable under islamic law though. That's a good start.

And Islam isn't 'some sort of utopic dream'?

Wasn't uncle mo's life the perfect, read; utopian, way to live life? Isn't Islam about emulating him and what not? Or are you going to deny this?

Even the first Caliphs are regarded as 'perfect', let alone uncle mo...

Yes, there is humane slavery. Again, I will point out that slavery was a solution to what to do with prisoners of war and criminals. Islam put in place rules regarding their treatment...


Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated AbuDharr: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Feed those of your slaves who please you from what you eat and clothe them with what you clothe yourselves, but sell those who do not please you and do not punish Allah's creatures. (Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab, Book 41, Number 5142)"

Let us look at the following Sayings from our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:
Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported: "When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4088)"

wiegraf:

I said the pope. Pope = Caliph. The final boss





Sooooo, quraysh righteous are more righteous than the righteous of others? Even the evil are better at being evil than the evil from other tribes? That doesn't qualify as supremecy??

Curious. I mean, if I stated that a righteous yoruba man is superior a righteous ibo man, or the righteous oyinbo was superior to the righteous black, I wonder how you would interpret that.

At the very best, you can stretch it to mean this



This is just twisting poor uncle moh's words. But even at that, doesn't change the fact that quarayshi are considered intrinsically superior to others by default. The ideal caliph would be quarayshi, no? Your own perfect mo declared this, abi you wish to deny this as well?

So when good ser Baghdadi, King of ISIS, claims he's the Caliph, a good and proper and pious Quaraysh, chosen by clergy and certainly more pious than you dudes thst seek to dilute uncle mos message, then well, his words have real weight.

More islam sites

http://www.deoband.org/2010/07/general/politics/is-it-a-condition-for-the-imam-to-be-from-quraysh/
http://islamqa.info/en/146316
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/shariah-based-systems/imamate-and-political-systems/169073-is-it-necessary-for-caliphs-to-be-from-quraish.html?Political_Systems=



I especially like this dude



Look at that bolded word.

Looks like he's omitting a little something something. Like the fact that not always, mostly for 'practical' reasons, but certainly ideally.

Let's not forget the 12 successors, mind



So, 12 prophecized Caliphs, all Quraysh... Plus endtimez, Islam style....



This here is mostly another bald faced lie, or you simply do not know your religion.

The Quraysh as leaders is expediency, not obligation. Earlier on, the ansar were keen on the khilafa, before Abu bakr stepped in and prevented the fragmentation of the Muslim world by keeping the khilafa in Quraysh. It was not a religious obligation but to prevent fitna. The prophet said we should obey our ruler even if he was an ethiopian slave. Numerous rulers have been non-Qurayshi and no scholar suggested that they should not be obeyed as a matter of faith. The 12 rulers from Quraysh is a prophecy, not a statute.

wiegraf:

Also, hint; like I've already intimated, your very actions betray you. The slavery of nonmuslims, taxing, barring from marriages, apostacy laws - all geared towards domination. And, once again, your oga mo is the benchmark. Abi you forget his wars of conquest? Raiding caravans and killing jews that were simply minding their business? You wonder how 'practical' islam will attain the succession to authority? lol

There's a lot more, but time abeg. I dunno why I have to teach y'all about your very own religion. Really...

This is your opinion. You have to prove that the prophet (saw) really had ambitious world domination in mind when he started out to 'create' his religion. Otherwise, you are just building castles on air; you know.

As an aside, the jews in the Hijaz were active players and at no point did they 'mind their business'. While I will also remind you that it was the prophet (saw) and his companions who were first driven out of their homes and their property in Mecca seized. Getting your property back from thieves is not a crime.

wiegraf:


Hold up. It looks to me like you mean this pejoratively. Like your grandfather's gods were not good enough?

What was I just saying about cultures enslaving you?! What is wrong with you??

A suggestion: if you're going to believe a group of fairy tales, those of your ancestors are infinitely superior to those of your slave masters... This is Stockholhm Syndrome on steroids, complete with you feeling proud of yourself.

Anyhow, moving on (and hopefully I can unsee such a sad case of mind ra.pe....), supposing they did? That somehow makes your slave masters doing it right? So it's despicable when your ancestors do it but not so when your arab mastahs do it? Shouldn't the fact that your arab mastah's indulged in it tell you something??



YES, (assuming if true) ser obvious.

I'm waiting for the part where you show me condoning their actions....

I'm all for cultures competing but doing this via means such as slavery...really

Slavery was a worldwide phenomenon; used to solve the problem of what to do with prisoners of war and criminals; that had nothing to do with RELIGIOUS and cultural domination ... end.

The prophet (saw) personally freed 63 slaves; his wife Aisha 67. Over 32000 slaves were freed in the interim period in the life of the companions BY THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES. This alone shows the emphasis Islam placed on freeing slaves.

Find out more here, if you wish...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery

wiegraf:

Bros, don't try to compare this with other taxes. It most certainly is a form of subjugation and domination this case. Or please, in order to avoid more long story, do tell in your own words; what is the point of the tax? Exactly why the tax? Thanks

The Muslim zakat is a religious obligation and the 3rd pillar of Islam. Non-Muslims living under Muslim rule cannot be forced to perform what is inherently an Islamic religious obligation; hence the jizya, since they enjoy the same infrastructure enjoyed by Muslims.

“… in a treaty made by Khalid with some town in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes; ‘If we protect you, then Jizya is due to us; but we do not, then it is not.’” (Thomas Arnold, The Preaching of Islam, Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York 1913 p.61)

After the Muslims had captured Hims (Emesa) and taken the Jizya as agreed in the agreement signed when the Muslims entered the city, it was learnt that Roman Emperor Heraclius was advancing with a large army. Abu ‘Ubaida, may Allah be pleased with him, who was the Muslim commander on the Syrian front, ordered all the dues taken as Jizya to be returned to the people of the city. According to Baladhuri the people of the city were told,
“We are not able to defend you anymore and now you have complete authority over your matters.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

Al-Azdi narrates the same with the following wording;
“We have returned your wealth back to you because we detest taking your wealth and then failing to protect your land. We are moving to another area and have called upon our brethren, and then we will fight our enemy. If Allah helps us defeat them we shall fulfill our covenant with you except that you yourselves do not like it then.” (Futuh al-Sham ed. William N. Lees published by Baptist Mission Culcutta, 1854 pp. 137-138)

Al-Baladhuri quotes the response of the people of Hims;
“Verily your rule and justice is dearer to us than the tyranny and oppression in which we used to live.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

This is the purpose of the jizya, in the eyes of the companions of the prophet (saw) according to the opinion of western orientalists.

wiegraf:

There's humane slavery??

I'm glad you concede slavery is acceptable under islamic law though. That's a good start.

And Islam isn't 'some sort of utopic dream'?

Wasn't uncle mo's life the perfect, read; utopian, way to live life? Isn't Islam about emulating him and what not? Or are you going to deny this?

Even the first Caliphs are regarded as 'perfect', let alone uncle mo...

Yes, there is humane slavery. Again, I will point out that slavery was a solution to what to do with prisoners of war and criminals. Islam put in place rules regarding their treatment...

Let us look at the following Sayings from our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated AbuDharr: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Feed those of your slaves who please you from what you eat and clothe them with what you clothe yourselves, but sell those who do not please you and do not punish Allah's creatures. (Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab, Book 41, Number 5142)"

Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported: "When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4088)"

wiegraf:

I said the pope. Pope = Caliph. The final boss





Sooooo, quraysh righteous are more righteous than the righteous of others? Even the evil are better at being evil than the evil from other tribes? That doesn't qualify as supremecy??

Curious. I mean, if I stated that a righteous yoruba man is superior a righteous ibo man, or the righteous oyinbo was superior to the righteous black, I wonder how you would interpret that.

At the very best, you can stretch it to mean this



This is just twisting poor uncle moh's words. But even at that, doesn't change the fact that quarayshi are considered intrinsically superior to others by default. The ideal caliph would be quarayshi, no? Your own perfect mo declared this, abi you wish to deny this as well?

So when good ser Baghdadi, King of ISIS, claims he's the Caliph, a good and proper and pious Quaraysh, chosen by clergy and certainly more pious than you dudes thst seek to dilute uncle mos message, then well, his words have real weight.

More islam sites

http://www.deoband.org/2010/07/general/politics/is-it-a-condition-for-the-imam-to-be-from-quraysh/
http://islamqa.info/en/146316
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/shariah-based-systems/imamate-and-political-systems/169073-is-it-necessary-for-caliphs-to-be-from-quraish.html?Political_Systems=



I especially like this dude



Look at that bolded word.

Looks like he's omitting a little something something. Like the fact that not always, mostly for 'practical' reasons, but certainly ideally.

Let's not forget the 12 successors, mind



So, 12 prophecized Caliphs, all Quraysh... Plus endtimez, Islam style....



This here is mostly another bald faced lie, or you simply do not know your religion.

The Quraysh as leaders is expediency, not obligation. Earlier on, the ansar were keen on the khilafa, before Abu bakr stepped in and prevented the fragmentation of the Muslim world by keeping the khilafa in Quraysh. It was not a religious obligation but to prevent fitna. The prophet said we should obey our ruler even if he was an ethiopian slave. Numerous rulers have been non-Qurayshi and no scholar suggested that they should not be obeyed as a matter of faith. The 12 rulers from Quraysh is a prophecy, not a statute.

wiegraf:

Also, hint; like I've already intimated, your very actions betray you. The slavery of nonmuslims, taxing, barring from marriages, apostacy laws - all geared towards domination. And, once again, your oga mo is the benchmark. Abi you forget his wars of conquest? Raiding caravans and killing jews that were simply minding their business? You wonder how 'practical' islam will attain the succession to authority? lol

There's a lot more, but time abeg. I dunno why I have to teach y'all about your very own religion. Really...

This is your opinion. You have to prove that the prophet (saw) really had ambitious world domination in mind when he started out to 'create' his religion. Otherwise, you are just building castles on air; you know.

As an aside, the jews in the Hijaz were active players and at no point did they 'mind their business'. While I will also remind you that it was the prophet (saw) and his companions who were first driven out of their homes and their property in Mecca seized. Getting your property back from thieves is not a crime.

You addressed nothing here.... Some repetition.....

Abuamam:


Slavery was a worldwide phenomenon; used to solve the problem of what to do with prisoners of war and criminals; that had nothing to do with RELIGIOUS and cultural domination ... end.

The prophet (saw) personally freed 63 slaves; his wife Aisha 67. Over 32000 slaves were freed in the interim period in the life of the companions BY THE COMPANIONS THEMSELVES. This alone shows the emphasis Islam placed on freeing slaves.

Find out more here, if you wish...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery

Already dealt with, but let's finish this.

The prophet also enslaved villages wholesale. So what exactly is your point??

wiki:

The Invasion of Banu Qurayza,[1] also known as the Massacre of Banu Qurayza, took place in the Dhul Qa‘dah during February and March of 627 AD (5 AH).[6]

The Banu Qurayza was besieged for 25 days until they surrendered.[1] One of Muhammad's companions decided that "the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives". Muhammad approved of the ruling, calling it similar to God's judgment,[7][8][9][10][11] after which all male members of the tribe who had reached puberty were beheaded.[2][12] According to Daniel C. Peterson and Martin Lings, this judgment was in accordance with the law of Moses as stated in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.[13][14] The Muslim jurist Tabari quotes 600–900 being executed.[1][3] The Sunni hadith do not give the number killed, but state that all males were killed and 1 woman.[15] The rest of the women and children were sold in exchange for weapons and horses, according to Islamic sources.[1]

According to Ibn Kathir, Quranic verses 33:26-27 and 33:9-10 are about the attack against the Banu Qurayza.[2][16][17]

The Banu Qurayza were allied to Muhammmad and during the Battle of the Trench they lent tools to the Muslims to defend themselves in Medina, but they did not participate in any fighting. The Qurayza were deeply offended by Muhammad's recitation of revelations which strongly attacked Jews, and according to Islamic sources (such as Al-Waqidi[18]) they negotiated with the Meccans.[19] Waqidi claims that Muhammad had a treaty with the tribe which was torn apart. Norman Stillman and Watt believe such a treaty was "doubtful" to have existed, though Watt believes the Qurayza had agreed not to assist Muhammad's enemies against him.[18][20] Al-Waqidi has been frequently criticized by Muslim writers, who claim that he is unreliable.[21] According to Mubrakpuri, Peters, Stillman, Guillaume, Inamdar and Ibn Kathir, on the day of the Meccans' withdrawal Muhammad led his forces against the Banu Qurayza neighborhood. According to Muslim tradition he had been ordered to do so by the angel Gabriel (Jibraaiyl).[1][2][7][8][9][22]

So, uncle mo first of all was critical of his allies, some jews. Allies that even actually aided him beforehand (without actually getting involved in the fighting, but not just allies in name).

Mo is up to his shenanigans with the Meccans, Meccans allegedly negotiate with aforementioned Jews.

Jews do nothing, they raise not a single arm against Mo or his followers, all that's there is accusations that they (might) have broken some (supposed) treaty they signed with Mo.

Again, not a single one of those Jews had every raised an arm against Mo or his followers, or even actually aided his enemies. In fact they had earlier aided mo himself! (For which he rewarded them with criticism).

So what does uncle Mo do?

He besieges them for near a month! Sets up a kangaroo court, well knowing what the outcome will be, and beheads all the males in the village then sells the rest of to slavery.

Do you know how many were beheaded?

600-900

Can you guess how many women and children would be left? I would wager, at least, the very same 600-900

So that's ~750 people sold into slavery in just the one incident as opposed to his releasing 63 through his life?!

He sure seems to real hate slavery.

And btw, do you know what the muslim casualty count was?

2

...........

Please, in case you missed it, here's the reason mo gave for the slaughter

wiki:

According to Peters and Stillman, on the day of the Meccans' withdrawal, Muhammad led his forces against the Banu Qurayza neighborhood. According to the Muslim tradition, he had been ordered to do so by the angel Gabriel.[7][8][9][22]

How so very convenient...


Now, once again, there is no such thing as humane slavery. That is preposterous...

I seriously do not know what's wrong with you. That you could be defending such nonsense buggles the mind. And I again remind you that this was a man that could do away with RELIGION. People's lives revolve around it, you're here mindlessly defending the indefensible as an example, yet this same man couldn't do away with slavery?? Instead, he well indulged in it, repeatedly?

Real curious.

And talk of his companions releasing 32000 slaves, even if I accepted that number and ignored the thousands they enslaved, I wonder how many of those were freed because they converted to Islam? How many had they enslaved themselves?

Abuamam:

The Muslim zakat is a religious obligation and the 3rd pillar of Islam. Non-Muslims living under Muslim rule cannot be forced to perform what is inherently an Islamic religious obligation; hence the jizya, since they enjoy the same infrastructure enjoyed by Muslims.

“… in a treaty made by Khalid with some town in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes; ‘If we protect you, then Jizya is due to us; but we do not, then it is not.’” (Thomas Arnold, The Preaching of Islam, Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York 1913 p.61)

After the Muslims had captured Hims (Emesa) and taken the Jizya as agreed in the agreement signed when the Muslims entered the city, it was learnt that Roman Emperor Heraclius was advancing with a large army. Abu ‘Ubaida, may Allah be pleased with him, who was the Muslim commander on the Syrian front, ordered all the dues taken as Jizya to be returned to the people of the city. According to Baladhuri the people of the city were told,
“We are not able to defend you anymore and now you have complete authority over your matters.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

Al-Azdi narrates the same with the following wording;
“We have returned your wealth back to you because we detest taking your wealth and then failing to protect your land. We are moving to another area and have called upon our brethren, and then we will fight our enemy. If Allah helps us defeat them we shall fulfill our covenant with you except that you yourselves do not like it then.” (Futuh al-Sham ed. William N. Lees published by Baptist Mission Culcutta, 1854 pp. 137-138)

Al-Baladhuri quotes the response of the people of Hims;
“Verily your rule and justice is dearer to us than the tyranny and oppression in which we used to live.” (Futuh al-Baldan 1/162)

This is the purpose of the jizya, in the eyes of the companions of the prophet (saw) according to the opinion of western orientalists.

Bros, zakat is not tax in the same way jizya is and you know this. It's essentially charity, that is how you even sell it to us kafiir. For one, if you don't give, nobody is going to enslave you. The same most certainly cannot be said for jizya

wiki:

1. Zakat is obligatory if a Muslim's income and net worth of assets exceeded the Nisab (excess of certain basic amount)[141]
1. Jizya is obligatory on a Dhimmi's regardless of income or wealth; no minimum (Nisab) to determine Jizya[142]

2. Zakat is only payable on income and on assets continuously owned over one lunar year that are in excess of the Nisab; to be paid on day of harvest (income)[143]
2. Jizya is payable on all assets and income, paid yearly or quarterly regardless to Nisab.[140]

3. the amount of Zakat paid was specified by Sharia[140]
3. the amount of Jizya paid was not specified by Sharia.;[50][51] by the time of the Prophet, at least one gold Dinar and 12 Dirhams; later on, these taxes were often graded into three levels with minimum rate being 20% of all estimated assets and any sales.[55] The highest rates ranged from 33% to 80% of all annual farm produce on land inside the Islamic empire.[56]

4. Zakat is paid only by the owner of the assets himself/herself[144]
4. Jizya is paid by all able-bodied adult males of military age and affording power [145]

5. refusal and failure to pay Zakat was treated with flexibility in some sultanates, with penalty and punishment in others[146][147]
5. refusal and failure to pay Jizya by any non-Muslim subject in a Muslim state was a capital crime, punished by his family's arrest and enslavement.[76][77] The women and girls of an enslaved family would become property of a Muslim master and serve as houseworkers and slaves. [size=13pt]In some cases, the family could escape this punishment by converting to Islam.[/size][148]

6. Zakat should be paid seeking God's pleasure[149]
7. Jizya is paid with humiliation, servility and belittlement[150][151]

Officially paid with humiliation, servility and belittlement. Hmmmm

No 5 is particularly juicy. So, if you can't pay (the sometime 80% of income tax) they enslave you. Unless, of course, you become a muslim? lol. What was I saying earlier? And what were you saying about Islam phasing out slavery?

In fact, same wiki article continues

wiki:

Critics often cite jizya as a form of discrimination, persecution and oppression in Islamic law.[152][153][154]

Supporters argue that it is fair, since all Muslims are obliged to pay Zakat. While the tax rate and nature of zakat and jizya were different, supporters often cite jizya as a form of protection money and a religious requirement against non-believers in Islam per Sharia.[155][156]

In practice, however, Timothy H. Parsons states that during the early caliphate, non-Muslims had to pay the kharaj. The sum of the jizya and kharaj taxes levied on non-Muslims were considerably larger than the zakat tax on Muslims and [size=13pt]conversion generally brought tax relief.[/size][157] Some evidence suggests that the jizya was sometimes double the Zakat; for example, the Hedaya (Guide on Mussalman Law),[158] an Islamic legal text, declared it lawful to require twice as much of a Zimmee (dhimmi) as of a Mussulman (Muslim).[159]

Those critics are too kind.

At the very least, come back when the price for not paying zakat is slavery. You might then have a sliver of a case.

abuman:

Yes, there is humane slavery. Again, I will point out that slavery was a solution to what to do with prisoners of war and criminals. Islam put in place rules regarding their treatment...

Let us look at the following Sayings from our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated AbuDharr: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Feed those of your slaves who please you from what you eat and clothe them with what you clothe yourselves, but sell those who do not please you and do not punish Allah's creatures. (Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud, General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab, Book 41, Number 5142)"

Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported: "When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4088)"

I will pretend I didn't see this

abuman:
The Quraysh as leaders is expediency, not obligation. Earlier on, the ansar were keen on the khilafa, before Abu bakr stepped in and prevented the fragmentation of the Muslim world by keeping the khilafa in Quraysh. It was not a religious obligation but to prevent fitna. The prophet said we should obey our ruler even if he was an ethiopian slave. Numerous rulers have been non-Qurayshi and no scholar suggested that they should not be obeyed as a matter of faith. The 12 rulers from Quraysh is a prophecy, not a statute.

I've already dealt with this as well. Your noble prophets words are up there for the record for all to see. Dunno who you think you're deceiving at this point....

I'll just repeat: the righteous white man is more righteous than the righteous black man

Heh

abuman:
This is your opinion. You have to prove that the prophet (saw) really had ambitious world domination in mind when he started out to 'create' his religion. Otherwise, you are just building castles on air; you know.

No offence again, but only a retard would not convict in this case.

And this despite the fact I'm holding back as, again, time. There is a lot more folly where that came from....

abuman:
As an aside, the jews in the Hijaz were active players and at no point did they 'mind their business'. While I will also remind you that it was the prophet (saw) and his companions who were first driven out of their homes and their property in Mecca seized. Getting your property back from thieves is not a crime.

Yes, see above. I'm sure those mean Jews were bullying those poor ol muslims

@ wiegraf you are intelligent, great posts from you. But I have a little to add.

Islam and Muslim culture have certain psychological mechanisms that harm people's development and increase the likelihood of irrational and unstable behaviour\beliefs. Islam Brainwashes its followers into believing or doing things against their own human nature -- such as hating and even killing people, technically enslaving people (collecting the immoral jizya from hardworking kafir) and forcing their child to cram and recite the quran under pain, beating and threats. The conscious infliction of psychological and physical suffering breaks down the person's resistance to the constantly repeated message.

Islam begins this process in early childhood. Violence and repetition of religious messages are prevalent in Muslim families where physical pain and threats are often the preferred tool to raise children. This is why so many Muslim girls grow up to accept violence in their marriage, and why Muslim boys grow up to learn that violence is acceptable. Combined this with countless repetitions of Quranic verses in Islamic schools and families, and it becomes very difficult for children to defend themselves against being indoctrinated to follow the Quran, even if it is against secular laws, logic, and the most basic understanding of compassion.

The end result is sociopathic behavior and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD): ANGER, quarrelsome behavior, impulsive behavior, INABILITY TO CONTROL RAGE, impatience, HEEDLESSNESS OF CONSEQUENCES, difficulty maintaining a course of action, emotional instabity, capriciousness, and VOLATILE REACTIONS TO INSIGNIFICANT EVENTS.

That is why any leader in the muslim world has to be ruthless to his subjects in order to maintain societal order. No weak and compassionate leader can survive in a conservative Islamic country. It is all about the rule of the jungle. Mohammed, as a perfect example for muslims, have to be ruthless in order to command respect.

Muslim psychology and human behavior rejects weakness in any form but respect tyranny and ruthlessness as a means of making a society tranquil.

guardian:

Four helipads will cluster around one of the largest domes in the world, like sideplates awaiting the unveiling of a momentous main course, which will be jacked up 45 storeys into the sky above the deserts of Mecca. It is the crowning feature of the holy city’s crowning glory, the superlative summit of what will be the world’s largest hotel when it opens in 2017.

With 10,000 bedrooms and 70 restaurants, plus five floors for the sole use of the Saudi royal family, the £2.3bn Abraj Kudai is an entire city of five-star luxury, catering to the increasingly high expectations of well-heeled pilgrims from the Gulf.

Modelled on a “traditional desert fortress”, seemingly filtered through the eyes of a Disneyland imagineer with classical pretensions, the steroidal scheme comprises 12 towers teetering on top of a 10-storey podium, which houses a bus station, shopping mall, food courts, conference centre and a lavishly appointed ballroom.

Located in the Manafia district, just over a mile south of the Grand Mosque, the complex is funded by the Saudi Ministry of Finance and designed by the Dar Al-Handasah group, a 7,000-strong global construction conglomerate that turns its hand to everything from designing cities in Kazakhstan to airports in Dubai. For the Abraj Kudai, it has followed the wedding-cake pastiche style of the city’s recent hotel boom: cornice is piled upon cornice, with fluted pink pilasters framing blue-mirrored windows, some arched with a vaguely Ottoman air. The towers seem to be packed so closely together that guests will be able to enjoy views into each other’s rooms.

Mecca's mega architecture casts shadow over hajj
“The city is turning into Mecca-hattan,” says Irfan Al-Alawi, director of the UK-based Islamic Heritage Research Foundation, which campaigns to try to save what little heritage is left in Saudi Arabia’s holy cities. “Everything has been swept away to make way for the incessant march of luxury hotels, which are destroying the sanctity of the place and pricing normal pilgrims out.”

The Grand Mosque is now loomed over by the second tallest building in the world, the Abraj al-Bait clocktower, home to thousands more luxury hotel rooms, where rates can reach £4,000 a night for suites with the best views of the Kaaba – the black cube at the centre of the mosque around which Muslims must walk. The hotel rises 600m (2,000ft) into the air, projecting a dazzling green laser-show by night, on a site where an Ottoman fortress once stood – razed for development, along with the hill on which it sat.

The list of heritage crimes goes on, driven by state-endorsed Wahhabism, the hardline interpretation of Islam that perceives historical sites as encouraging sinful idolatry – which spawned the ideology that is now driving Isis’s reign of destruction in Syria and Iraq. In Mecca and Medina, meanwhile, anything that relates to the prophet could be in the bulldozer’s sights. The house of Khadijah, his first wife, was crushed to make way for public lavatories; the house of his companion Abu Bakr is now the site of a Hilton hotel; his grandson’s house was flattened by the king’s palace. Moments from these sites now stands a Paris Hilton store and a gender-segregated Starbucks.

“These are the last days of Mecca,” says Alawi. “The pilgrimage is supposed to be a spartan, simple rite of passage, but it has turned into an experience closer to Las Vegas, which most pilgrims simply can’t afford.”


Along the western edge of Mecca, the Jabal Omar development, which will accommodate 100,000 people. Photograph: Jabal Omar Development
The city receives around 2 million pilgrims for the annual Hajj, but during the rest of the year more than 20 million visit the city, which has become a popular place for weddings and conferences, bringing in annual tourism revenue of around £6bn. The skyline bristles with cranes, summoning thickets of hotel towers to accommodate the influx. Along the western edge of the city the Jabal Omar development now rises, a sprawling complex that will eventually accommodate 100,000 people in 26 luxury hotels – sitting on another gargantuan plinth of 4,000 shops and 500 restaurants, along with its own six-storey prayer hall.

The Grand Mosque, meanwhile, is undergoing a £40bn expansion to double the capacity of its prayer halls – from 3 million worshippers currently to nearly 7 million by 2040. Planned like a vast triangular slice of cake, the extension goes so far back that most worshippers won’t even be able to see the Ka’bah.

“It is just like an airport terminal,” says Alawi. “People have been finding they’re praying in the wrong direction because they simply don’t know which way the mosque is any more. It has made a farce of the whole place.”

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2015/may/22/worlds-biggest-hotel-to-open-in-mecca



So, how do you get off the helipads?

Abuamam:


If there is one religion that does not profit from undeserved resources, it is Islam. Rather it strives to give back to the poor. There is no clergy in Islam to exploit the laity... unlike one other religion that I know.

And I thought Islam had Imams? Maybe not as many as those business men using Gods name to open shop they call church. Its well sha, whats my own? God can and will fight for himself when he is ready to do so.