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Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 4:11am On May 21, 2015
johnw74:


John the Baptist was called a messenger too, but he is not an Angel


delete the english word messenger in matt 11:10 and u will see John d baptist been called an " angelos" !


Angel/messenger is an assignment delegated to i) a spirit messenger ii) a human messenger

1) is Jesus a spirit messenger of God ?

2) What are spirit MESSENGERS of God Called ?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by dolphinheart(m): 5:04am On May 21, 2015
An interesting topic, think the answers will come out if we truthfully answer each others questions
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by enilove(m): 5:28am On May 21, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:
^^
-- What are heavenly MESSENGERS of God called ? ANGEL

-- Is Jesus an heavenly messenger from God ? YES, Malachi 3:1

-- so , what are heavenly Messengers of God called ?

cheesy

A messenger is someone who delivers messages.
Anyone can be used to deliver messages. A wife can be sent to deliver a message and that makes her a messenger as far as that transaction is concerned although she still remains a wife. The same goes with a son. A father can send his son to deliver a message to someone. That qualifies him to be called a messenger and does not disqualify him from being called a son. As can be read below :

Matthew 21:33-37, 39-40 KJV
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: [34] And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. [35] And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. [36] Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. [37] But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. [39] And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him . [40] When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by dolphinheart(m): 5:32am On May 21, 2015
Can any explain what paul was trying to Tell us at 1 cor 10: 1-5?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 7:29am On May 21, 2015
enilove:


A messenger is someone who delivers messages.
Anyone can be used to deliver messages. A wife can be sent to deliver a message and that makes her a messenger as far as that transaction is concerned although she still remains a wife. The same goes with a son. A father can send his son to deliver a message to someone. That qualifies him to be called a messenger and does not disqualify him from being called a son. As can be read below :

Matthew 21:33-37, 39-40 KJV
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: [34] And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. [35] And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. [36] Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. [37] But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. [39] And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him . [40] When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?





- the fact that someone is a messenger (i.e angel), doesnt disqualify him from being a son ( i.e spirit messengers called Angels are sons of God)

- the servant in the parable above are human messengers .

- the son in the parable above is a spirit messenger.

> What are spirit Messengers of God called ?

> Is Jesus a spirit messenger of God ?

.... Waitin for ur answers pls
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by ayoku777(m): 7:47am On May 21, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


delete the english word messenger in matt 11:10 and u will see John d baptist been called an " angelos" !


Angel/messenger is an assignment delegated to i) a spirit messenger ii) a human messenger

1) is Jesus a spirit messenger of God ?

2) What are spirit MESSENGERS of God Called ?

Hebrew is an ambiguous language. It does not differentiate between some specific terms even though they are different.

The sky, where birds fly is called heaven in hebrew, the universe where the sun and the stars are is also called heaven in hebrew; and the paradise of God where His throne is is also called heaven. But traditionally, the word heaven means paradise; where God's throne is. When God said heaven is my throne; He wasn't talking about the sky but paradise.

Can you now say that the sky is heaven? Or that if you go to the sky you are in heaven? It is in english that this differencies are made clear and explicit. You need to study them carefully to differentiate them in hebrew.

Trying to capitalize on the ambiguity of the hebrew language, to say that Jesus is an angel, because the word for messenger and angel are both malak is far reaching.

It is clear that the malak of a messenger is different from the malak of a traditional angel. Just as the heaven of the sky is different from the heaven of paradise, even though the hebrew does not have an unambiguous term to differentiate them.

Trying to say Jesus is an angel is like saying the sky is heaven. And that is taking the ambiguity of the hebrew language too far.

The writer of Hebrew said there is no angel that God ever addressed as begotten; yet the Father addressed Jesus as begotten.

Do the math! It means Jesus is not an angel.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 7:50am On May 21, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


delete the english word messenger in matt 11:10 and u will see John d baptist been called an " angelos" !


Angel/messenger is an assignment delegated to i) a spirit messenger ii) a human messenger

1) is Jesus a spirit messenger of God ?

2) What are spirit MESSENGERS of God Called ?

The Greek word is "aggelos", ang-el-os is how it's pronounced,
and it can mean angel, and like it's Hebrew equivelant "malek" can mean other titles as well,
Prophet being one of them, which john the Baptist was.

Yout trying to make Jesus Christ out to be a Angel because somewhere messenger was used to describe Him is ridiculous, and it's because you are jw and your doctrine comes before truth, which is evident in your posts.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by Nobody: 10:34am On May 21, 2015
ayoku777:


That's a relative opinion. While there indeed might not be a hebrew term distinguishing the word "angel" from the word used to describe anyone sent as a messenger, because hebrew language could be ambiguous; it is clear however from application that not everyone sent by God with a message is traditionally an angel -a ministering spirit.

The hebrew language is an ambiguous language. It didn't different between the heaven of the atmosphere (where birds fly), or the heavens of the universe (where the sun and the stars are), or the heavens of paradise (where God's throne is); even though they are different. It just calls everything heaven. It is with study you differentiate it yourself.

Hebrew also did not differentiate between spiritual death and physical death, even though they are different, it just calls them death. It is with study you differentiate it yourself.

Same thing here, hebrew doesn't have a word to differentiate between an angel malak and a messenger malak. It simply calls both malak, even though not every messenger is an angel (ministering spirit). It is with study you differentiate traditional angel from a messenger. Hebrew is an ambiguous language.

There are different spirit beings in heaven that are not angels even though they could also be messengers of God. We have the lamb of God, the seven spirits of God, the four living creatures, the 24 elders, the saints and then the angels. There is a marked difference between these beings and "angels", just as there is difference between anyone that can be sent of God and the beings called angels specifically. And the lamb of God is not an angel.

The writer of the book of Hebrews made this clear when he showed that the person called the Son is different from the class of spirit beings traditionally called angels.

Hebrews 1v5 - For unto which of the angels (archangel or regular angels) said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

This is a rhetorical question; and the obvious answer is "NONE". The writer implied here that there is no angel at all that God, at any time, ever said those words to. Because there is no angel begotten of the Father. Meaning the person God said those words to is not an angel.



Ofcourse Jesus has been sent of the Father before. But if that is the context in which you want to classify Him as an angel; then all of us are angels in that context. Because Jesus said; as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you -John 20v21.

If you want to imply that everyone who has ever been sent of the Father with a message is an angel; then all the prophets (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Ezekiel etc) are angles. And all the apostles in the bible are also angels. And every true servant of God alive today is also an angel -going by your generalized definition of the term "angel" to mean anyone sent with a message by the Father.



Must the voice of Jesus be powerless for an archangel to do something under Christ's authority? It is also an angel that will bind the Devil and throw him into the bottomless pit for a thousand years at the beginning of the millenial reign. Does that also mean Christ isn't powerful enough to have done it Himself for Him to let an angel do it?

If an angel or archangel speaks or does something under Christ's authority, it is as good as Christ doing it. Even so, that doesn't mean the angel or archangel is Jesus Christ.

The account of Matthew shows that it is the angels that would be sent of Christ to gather the elect.

Matthew 24v31 -And He (Jesus) shall send His angels with a great shout of a trumpet, and they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God are everything that will happen at the coming of Christ. It doesn't mean they would be done by Christ personally or mean that Jesus is the archangel.

Remember Ezekiel at the valley of dry bones. He also spoke under God's authority and the dry bones came alive, the bones heard and obeyed him as the voice of God Himself. Does that mean Ezekiel is God or that God's voice is powerless? It definitly doesn't mean Ezekiel is God anymore than it means that the archangel in 1Thess is Jesus Christ. That's far reaching.



It is called a messianic prophecy. The Psalmist was talking under the unction and inspiration of the Spirit. The psalm was not directed at a human king. It was talking about Jesus. Remember the psalmist also said,

Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thine holy one to see corruption -Psalm 16v10

Yet David saw corruption and his soul went to sheol; because the psalm was not directed at him or any other human. It was a messianic prophecy and it was directed at Christ; just like Psalm 45.



How can God not have a God? What is the implication of the Father being called "The MostHigh God" or "The God of gods"?

Jesus is God according to many verses in the bible but the Father is also His God according to many verses in the bible. Jesus is God but He has a God. Scripture makes that explicitly clear.

And no, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a different person.

Shalom.

Thanks so much,but pls read that Thessalonians very well. Who was actually coming with an archangel's voice sir? And pls respond to that john 5:28, 29.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by ayoku777(m): 11:58am On May 21, 2015
JMAN05:


Thanks so much,but pls read that Thessalonians very well. Who was actually coming with an archangel's voice sir? And pls respond to that john 5:28, 29.

I know the verse, and I've read it again already. The interpretation you're trying to give it is really a stretch.

1Thess 4v16 -For the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

By your own interpretation of this verse, you're trying to say it means Jesus is the one shouting, He is the archangel speaking, and He is the one blowing the trump of God -as He is descending.

And I am saying no, that is not so. The verse depicts the scene of all that will be taking place as Jesus descends. It means Jesus will descend; as He descends, there will be a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God -all blasting.

That doesn't mean Jesus is the one shouting, or He's the archangel speaking, or He's the one blowing the trump of God. Remember He's not descending alone; He's descending with the host of heaven (angels and archangels and some glorified saints) -its not just Him.

The verse depicts all that will transpire as He descends; not necessarily what Jesus Himself will be doing in person. Jesus is not the archangel speaking.

Then as to the other verse you raised.

John 5v28 -Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.

I suspect what you're trying to infer here is say that, since Jesus said it is His voice that the dead will hear and rise, that means Jesus is the archangel speaking in 1Thess 4v16.

If you're conversant with scriptural expression; you will realise that when angels are sent of God to speak in His name or under His authority; their voice is depicted as the voice of God Himself. For example;

It was an angel of God that appeared to Moses in the burning bush; but when the angle spoke to Moses, the scripture expressed it as God Himself speaking.

Exodus 3v2 - And the angel of the Lord appeared unto Him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:

v4 -And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush,

v7 - And the Lord said, I have seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt,

It was an angel of the Lord that was speaking, but it was the voice of God that called out.

Now according to Jesus in Matthew 24; it is angels that Jesus will send when He descends from heaven, to gather His elect.

Matthew 24v31 -And He (Jesus) shall send His angles with a great sound of a trumpet, and they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe when this angels sent by Jesus to gather His elects speak under His authority, the dead will hear and obey their voice as the voice of Jesus and rise. Does it mean the angels are Jesus? No

The voice of an angel or archangel speaking under the authority of Christ is the voice of Christ; and it will be heard and obeyed as the voice of Christ. But that doesn't mean the archangel is Jesus; anymore than it meant that the angel speaking to Moses in the burning bush was YHVH.

The archangel in 1Thess 4v16 is not Jesus. He is just one of the great heavenly host that will accompany Christ and descend with Him at His coming.

The writer of Hebrew made it absolutely clear that God has never, at any time, called any angel begotten. Yet the Father called Jesus His begotten. If we do the math, this proves that Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, is not an angel or archangel. Never was; will never be.

Shalom

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Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by Emusan(m): 12:22pm On May 21, 2015
JMAN05:
Thanks so much,but pls read that Thessalonians very well. Who was actually coming with an archangel's voice sir? And pls respond to that john 5:28, 29.

So why does your Organization teach that Jesus has come since 1914 when this same verse 1 Thessa 4:16 says "the Lord will DESCEND with a SHOUT..." did Jehovah witness hear this shout in 1914?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by Nobody: 5:22pm On May 21, 2015
Please, try and shorten your comments, so that this discussion dont become endless.

ayoku777:


That's a relative opinion. While there indeed might not be a hebrew term distinguishing the word "angel" from the word used to describe anyone sent as a messenger, because hebrew language could be ambiguous; it is clear however from application that not everyone sent by God with a message is traditionally an angel -a ministering spirit.

The hebrew language is an ambiguous language. It didn't different between the heaven of the atmosphere (where birds fly), or the heavens of the universe (where the sun and the stars are), or the heavens of paradise (where God's throne is); even though they are different. It just calls everything heaven. It is with study you differentiate it yourself.

Hebrew also did not differentiate between spiritual death and physical death, even though they are different, it just calls them death. It is with study you differentiate it yourself.

Same thing here, hebrew doesn't have a word to differentiate between an angel malak and a messenger malak. It simply calls both malak, even though not every messenger is an angel (ministering spirit). It is with study you differentiate traditional angel from a messenger. Hebrew is an ambiguous language.

There are different spirit beings in heaven that are not angels even though they could also be messengers of God. We have the lamb of God, the seven spirits of God, the four living creatures, the 24 elders, the saints and then the angels. There is a marked difference between these beings and "angels", just as there is difference between anyone that can be sent of God and the beings called angels specifically. And the lamb of God is not an angel.

My oga, the point is, from God's stand point malak is malak, whether serving in heaven or on earth. If you are a malak, you are a messenger of God. If Jehovah sends you an errand, you ve become a messenger for Him.

If you want to specify that some malaks are spirits, while some are humans, that's also ok. however, they are all messengers according to the scriptures.

Thats the first point, whether in heaven or earth, they are all messengers.

Point of correction, even though the english translations MOSTLY used "angel" to translate malak/angelos which points to spirits. in some cases, the world "angel" is used in the english translation to refer to humans. For example of this, see Rev. 2:1, 8, 12, 18

2. Now, as a spirit, doesnt Jesus minister. He does, Rev 1:1 shows Jesus being sent on a message by God. That is another point to show he is an angel, even when viewed from your position - "ministering spirit".

If your definition of angel is when a spirit talks to a human, you are joking. an angel is a messenger. Let us not twist God's word abeg.

The writer of the book of Hebrews made this clear when he showed that the person called the Son is different from the class of spirit beings traditionally called angels.

Hebrews 1v5 - For unto which of the angels (archangel or regular angels) said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

This is a rhetorical question; and the obvious answer is "NONE". The writer implied here that there is no angel at all that God, at any time, ever said those words to. Because there is no angel begotten of the Father. Meaning the person God said those words to is not an angel.

Jesus is really an angel per excellence, but many of you misunderstand Paul's letter. lets start from the beginning:

"Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

Jesus received many privileges, especially after his sacrifice on earth. After this sacrifice, he sat down at the right hand of God - he was not there before.

The scripture now said, "so" he "has become" better than the angels. why? "to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs".

--- should we not ask why the almighty Jesus became better than angels after his sacrifice on earth, if he is God almighty, shouldnt he innately be better than them? shouldnt his name be naturally more excellent than the angels whom he created? (ie if we are to take trinity teaching serious).

So, Paul was comparing the superior position that Christ attained immediately after living the earthly scene, and the position of angels who are in heaven before he came back. He is telling us that Jesus had received elevation cos of his achievements compared to angels in heaven. He is still viewing Jesus as a human who just left the earth to a higher post. And he, in succeeding verses showed the statements and promises that supports his statement in verse 4.

Of course Jesus has been sent of the Father before. But if that is the context in which you want to classify Him as an angel; then all of us are angels in that context. Because Jesus said; as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you -John 20v21.

If you want to imply that everyone who has ever been sent of the Father with a message is an angel; then all the prophets (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Ezekiel etc) are angles. And all the apostles in the bible are also angels. And every true servant of God alive today is also an angel -going by your generalized definition of the term "angel" to mean anyone sent with a message by the Father.

You are still allowing english language to distort your understanding of the scripture. To God, malak is malak whether in heaven or on earth. If you choose to employ another english word which will help you to differentiate a spirit messenger from a human messenger, that's fine, but it does not change the fact that they are all ministers or messengers. Even as a spirit, Jesus still run errands for God.

We considering the scriptural use of the word. Remember my first question above, i said 'as used in the scriptures'.

Must the voice of Jesus be powerless for an archangel to do something under Christ's authority? It is also an angel that will bind the Devil and throw him into the bottomless pit for a thousand years at the beginning of the millenial reign. Does that also mean Christ isn't powerful enough to have done it Himself for Him to let an angel do it?

If an angel or archangel speaks or does something under Christ's authority, it is as good as Christ doing it. Even so, that doesn't mean the angel or archangel is Jesus Christ.

The account of Matthew shows that it is the angels that would be sent of Christ to gather the elect.

Matthew 24v31 -And He (Jesus) shall send His angels with a great shout of a trumpet, and they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So the shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God are everything that will happen at the coming of Christ. It doesn't mean they would be done by Christ personally or mean that Jesus is the archangel.

Remember Ezekiel at the valley of dry bones. He also spoke under God's authority and the dry bones came alive, the bones heard and obeyed him as the voice of God Himself. Does that mean Ezekiel is God or that God's voice is powerless? It definitly doesn't mean Ezekiel is God anymore than it means that the archangel in 1Thess is Jesus Christ. That's far reaching.

The trumpet that was blown in Matt 24:31 does not seem to be for the resurrection of the chosen ones as stated in 1Thess 4:16. That matthew only shows that Jesus will send the angels using a trumpet of great sound. While that of 1thess 4:16 is associated with resurrection of the chosen ones.

Matthew's account shows that Jesus will send his angels (plural) to gather the chosen ones, but Thessalonians tell us of an archangel's voice (singular). This is another point that shows a difference.

Your second comment on the issue is:

By your own interpretation of this verse, you're trying to say it means Jesus is the one shouting, He is the archangel speaking, and He is the one blowing the trump of God -as He is descending.

And I am saying no, that is not so. The verse depicts the scene of all that will be taking place as Jesus descends. It means Jesus will descend; as He descends, there will be a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God -all blasting.

That doesn't mean Jesus is the one shouting, or He's the archangel speaking, or He's the one blowing the trump of God. Remember He's not descending alone; He's descending with the host of heaven (angels and archangels and some glorified saints) -its not just Him.

The verse depicts all that will transpire as He descends; not necessarily what Jesus Himself will be doing in person. Jesus is not the archangel speaking.

Then as to the other verse you raised.

John 5v28 -Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.

I suspect what you're trying to infer here is say that, since Jesus said it is His voice that the dead will hear and rise, that means Jesus is the archangel speaking in 1Thess 4v16.

If you're conversant with scriptural expression; you will realise that when angels are sent of God to speak in His name or under His authority; their voice is depicted as the voice of God Himself. For example;

It was an angel of God that appeared to Moses in the burning bush; but when the angle spoke to Moses, the scripture expressed it as God Himself speaking.

Exodus 3v2 - And the angel of the Lord appeared unto Him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:

v4 -And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush,

v7 - And the Lord said, I have seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt,

It was an angel of the Lord that was speaking, but it was the voice of God that called out.

Now according to Jesus in Matthew 24; it is angels that Jesus will send when He descends from heaven, to gather His elect.

Matthew 24v31 -And He (Jesus) shall send His angles with a great sound of a trumpet, and they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe when this angels sent by Jesus to gather His elects speak under His authority, the dead will hear and obey their voice as the voice of Jesus and rise. Does it mean the angels are Jesus? No

The voice of an angel or archangel speaking under the authority of Christ is the voice of Christ; and it will be heard and obeyed as the voice of Christ. But that doesn't mean the archangel is Jesus; anymore than it meant that the angel speaking to Moses in the burning bush was YHVH.

The archangel in 1Thess 4v16 is not Jesus. He is just one of the great heavenly host that will accompany Christ and descend with Him at His coming.

The writer of Hebrew made it absolutely clear that God has never, at any time, called any angel begotten. Yet the Father called Jesus His begotten. If we do the math, this proves that Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God, is not an angel or archangel. Never was; will never be.

According to Matthew you quoted, Jesus is not the only one coming, and all the angels he is coming with takes part in the gathering work. And you are correct by saying that God at times use angels to represent Him. This angels at times bear His name. But God is not Jesus

The bold face sentence in your comment shows a difference. You are talking of angels(plural) acting on Christ's authority, but the thessalonians is talking about not just one angel, but one archangel. Notice that Jesus is not spoken of as coming with an archangel, but we are told that he will shout with an archangel's voice.

That raises some questions, which is the part i think you are not flowing with my logic:

a. How can Jesus (the almighty according to you) use the voice of a spirit with a lower rank to raise the dead, since he is even the one heading the army of this angels?

In the thorn bush, the voice that appeared was said to be God's, even though it was that of an angel. But in this case we are not talking of the voice of a Higher being(Jehovah) that the lower being used; we are talking of a "Higher" being(Jesus) using the voice of a lower creature. ie Jesus using the voice of an archangel. If he was greater than the archangel, why use his voice? So there is no correlation between this and the thorn bush example.

Thess 4:16 said that it was Jesus who used an archangel's voice, not the other way round.

b. how can Jesus even use the voice of another? was he mimicking it or what? What makes that voice special?

In the thorn bush, it was the angel's voice, but since he was acting on the authority of God, it was depicted as God's. So was Jesus acting on the authority of an archangel? that is exactly what your analogy can rightly lead to.

All evidence points to Jesus as that archangel.

It is called a messianic prophecy. The Psalmist was talking under the unction and inspiration of the Spirit. The psalm was not directed at a human king. It was talking about Jesus. Remember the psalmist also said,

Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, nor suffer thine holy one to see corruption -Psalm 16v10

Yet David saw corruption and his soul went to sheol; because the psalm was not directed at him or any other human. It was a messianic prophecy and it was directed at Christ; just like Psalm 45.

It is not in all cases that a statement is only prophetic. Some real events in the life of bible characters do become prophetic of something in the future. That is the case here.

Commenting on the verse, John Calvin says:

"In this verse the Psalmist commends other princely virtues in Solomon, namely, the eternal duration of his throne, and then the justice and rectitude of his mode of government." Calvin's commentaries.

How can God not have a God? What is the implication of the Father being called "The MostHigh God" or "The God of gods"?

Jesus is God according to many verses in the bible but the Father is also His God according to many verses in the bible. Jesus is God but He has a God. Scripture makes that explicitly clear.

And no, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a different person.

If he has a God, he is certainly not equal in power to his God. Do you believe that too?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 6:29pm On May 21, 2015
johnw74:


The Greek word is "aggelos", ang-el-os is how it's pronounced,
and it can mean angel, and like it's Hebrew equivelant "malek" can mean other titles as well,
Prophet being one of them, which john the Baptist was.

Malek In Malachi 3:1 Is Not Signifyin A Prophet, teacher or doctor But ANGEL , angelos was used for Jesus in the greek septuagint of malachi 3:1 quoted in matt 11:10 and angelos means "angel" .

ANgel /messenger assignment is delegated to two people
I.) Human messengers ii) spirit messengers

I) is Jesus a spirit messenger of God ?

II ) Spirit messengers of God are called Angels ? YES OR NO .

Lets solve this first .... Then we proceed .



Yout trying to make Jesus Christ out to be a Angel because somewhere messenger was used to describe Him

Ar u still fighting malachi 3:1 , greek septuagint "angelos (angel) of the covenant" pls answer the questions above , be straightforward .
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 12:34am On May 22, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


Malek In Malachi 3:1 Is Not Signifyin A Prophet, teacher or doctor But ANGEL

It's all been explained to you and you cannot see it at all.




Lets solve this first .... Then we proceed .

Why do you think I want to proceed with you
I don't help those who reject scriptures
I have said that more than once
I will just continue to show up some of your wrongs
for the benefit of others.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by ayoku777(m): 5:40am On May 22, 2015
JMAN05:

Jesus is really an angel per excellence, but many of you misunderstand Paul's letter. lets start from the beginning:

"Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things , and through whom he made the systems of things. 3  He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs."

Jesus received many privileges, especially after his sacrifice on earth. After this sacrifice, he sat down at the right hand of God - he was not there before.

The scripture now said, "so" he "has become" better than the angels. why? "to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs".

--- should we not ask why the almighty Jesus became better than angels after his sacrifice on earth, if he is God almighty, shouldnt he innately be better than them? shouldnt his name be naturally more excellent than the angels whom he created? (ie if we are to take trinity teaching serious).

So, Paul was comparing the superior position that Christ attained immediately after living the earthly scene, and the position of angels who are in heaven before he came back. He is telling us that Jesus had received elevation cos of his achievements compared to angels in heaven. He is still viewing Jesus as a human who just left the earth to a higher post. And he, in succeeding verses showed the statements and promises that supports his statement in verse 4.

I think this argument is just a tip of a much bigger doctrinal error. We will be going in endless circles until we address it from the root.

I can explain why Jesus needed to have his name exalted. I can explain where He was before He sat at the right hand of the Father. But the explanation will not solve the real error.

Its Yahshua and His name that needed to be exalted (Phil 2v9-10) not the Word of God. The Word of God was always superior to all the angels in heaven, in name and in everything else, from the very beginning. Infact, He was the creator of all the angels (John 1v3).

But when the Word was made flesh and became Yahshua; He was made a lilttle lower than the angels (Hebrews 2v9). He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8v3). He could suffer temptation and die.

But when He died and rose; Yahshua became exalted and inherited a name better than any angel (Phil 2v10-11). And He sat at the right hand of the Father.

Where was the Word in heaven before He became Yahshua and before He sat at the right hand of the Father? He was in the bossom of the Father in heaven (John 1v18). Same way Lazarus was in the bossom of Abraham in sheol.

But all these arguments are not really the root problem. These arguments are used to mask and evade the real doctrinal error.

Let me ask you this? Do you believe that Jesus is the Word of God? And that ALL things were made by Him -including the world and all the angels?

1 Like

Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 10:09am On May 22, 2015
ayoku777:


Hebrew is an ambiguous language. It does not differentiate between some specific terms even though they are different.

The sky, where birds fly is called heaven in hebrew, the universe where the sun and the stars are is also called heaven in hebrew; and the paradise of God where His throne is is also called heaven.

The hebrew word shamayim means " heaven,sky" . So there is no big deal if its used for the two. UNLIKE malak and angelos which mean "messenger " , and both humans and spirit messengers are both called angels.

REMOVE the veil of tradition which says angel literarily means " a two winged being " NO ! Angel= messenger .

QUESTION:
Is Jesus a messenger ? YES

: Is Jesus a spirit messenger or human messenger ? Spirit messenger, (unless u wanna tell me, he start existin as human ,not sent from heaven )

What are spirit messengers of God called ?
ANGEL



But traditionally, the word heaven means paradise;
ERROR ! The hebrew word for paradise is pardes NOT shamayim ...


Where God's throne is. When God said heaven is my throne; He wasn't talking about the sky but paradise.

Can you now say that the sky is heaven? Or that if you go to the sky you are in heaven? It is in english that this differencies are made clear and explicit. You need to study them carefully to differentiate them in hebrew.


Thats in english NOT hebrew, remember God himself caled the expanse which include the skies "heaven" ( Gen 1:8, psalm 19:1 ) ,


Trying to capitalize on the ambiguity of the hebrew language, to say that Jesus is an angel, because the word for messenger and angel are both malak is far reaching.

It is clear that the malak of a messenger is different from the malak of a traditional angel. Just as the heaven of the sky is different from the heaven of paradise, even though the hebrew does not have an unambiguous term to differentiate them.


There is nothig like " heaven of paradise" in the hebrew scriptues " . So no ambiguity here

I understand ur point as saying God lives in the deep part of heavens above the sky , but REMEMBER the sky can also be called heaven, so just say God lives in the " the heaven(his abode) of heavens (the sky)" 1king 8:27


Trying to say Jesus is an angel is like saying the sky is heaven. And that is taking the ambiguity of the hebrew language too far.


Is the sky not heaven ? Psalm 19:1 , it is ! Read my xplanation above.


The writer of Hebrew said there is no angel that God ever addressed as begotten; yet the Father addressed Jesus as begotten.

Do the math! It means Jesus is not an angel.
That Jesus was made better than other angels (messengers) doesnt mean he himsef is not an angel (= messenger 'angelos' ) . The same way king solomons greatness that other kings doesnt mean he (solomon) himself is not a king.
"so King Solomon was greater than all the other kings of the earth" how is he greater? "in riches and wisdom" 2 chro 9:22

Jesus too (a spirit angelos (mal 3:1 septuagint) ) was made better than other spirit angelos how ? " he obtained an excellent name than theirs"

Hebrew 1 is just hightighting the exaltation of the firstborn SON over all other fellow heavenly SONS of God. Though he is a son and a spirit MESSENGER too .
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by ayoku777(m): 10:44am On May 22, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:



That Jesus was made better than other angels (messengers) doesnt mean he himsef is not an angel (= messenger 'angelos' ) . The same way king solomons greatness that other kings doesnt mean he (solomon) himself is not a king.
"so King Solomon was greater than all the other kings of the earth" how is he greater? "in riches and wisdom" 2 chro 9:22

Jesus too (a spirit angelos (mal 3:1 septuagint) ) was made better than other spirit angelos how ? " he obtained an excellent name than theirs"

Hebrew 1 is just hightighting the exaltation of the firstborn SON over all other fellow heavenly SONS of God. Though he is a son and a spirit MESSENGER too .

I think this argument is just a tip of a much bigger doctrinal error. We will be going in endless circles until we address it from the root.

I can explain why Jesus needed to have his name exalted. I can explain where He was before He sat at the right hand of the Father. But the explanation will not solve the real error.

Its Yahshua and His name that needed to be exalted (Phil 2v9-10) not the Word of God. The Word of God was always superior to all the angels in heaven, in name and in everything else, from the very beginning. Infact, He was the creator of all the angels (John 1v3).

But when the Word was made flesh and became Yahshua; He was made a lilttle lower than the angels (Hebrews 2v9). He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8v3). He could suffer temptation and die.

But when He died and rose; Yahshua became exalted and inherited a name better than any angel (Phil 2v10-11). And He sat at the right hand of the Father.

Where was the Word in heaven before He became Yahshua and before He sat at the right hand of the Father? He was in the bossom of the Father in heaven (John 1v18). Same way Lazarus was in the bossom of Abraham in sheol.

But all these arguments are not really the root problem. These arguments are used to mask and evade the real doctrinal error.

Let me ask you this? Do you believe that Jesus is the Word of God? And that ALL things were made by Him -including the world and all the angels?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 12:15pm On May 22, 2015
ayoku777

Let me ask you? Do you believe that Jesus is the Word of God ?

Of course , thats a title or name given to him by God Almighty His Father .... This is clear accordin to a vision in Rev 19:11-16 , Jesus was visioned on a horse and he is called by the name " the Word of God" ! NOT that he is the sentences and utterance that come out from God.

NOTE : rev 19: 11-16 pictures Jesus leadin the armies of heaven in WAR , Rev 12:7 shows its was the great arch-angel micheal that leads the angels in WAR . Since the son of God is to fight the nations , it is very reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil and his angels .

and that ALL things were made by him - including the world and the angels ?

ALL things came into existence " through him" heb 1:1,2 . " Jesus Christ, through whom all things exist and we through him" 1 cor 8:6

This doesnt mean God didnt work ... Jesus made it clear that they are both hardworking workers ( john 5:17)

The source of ALL THINGS IS GOD, THE FATHER (HEB 1:1,2 ; 1COR 8:6 " THE FATHER, from whom ALL things are , and we for him "wink clearly then, rather than be the source , Jesus Christ humbly reveal that he is " the beginning of the creation by God" Rev 3:14 . U know what dat means
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by Nobody: 6:54pm On May 22, 2015
ayoku777:


I think this argument is just a tip of a much bigger doctrinal error. We will be going in endless circles until we address it from the root.

I can explain why Jesus needed to have his name exalted. I can explain where He was before He sat at the right hand of the Father. But the explanation will not solve the real error.

Its Yahshua and His name that needed to be exalted (Phil 2v9-10) not the Word of God. The Word of God was always superior to all the angels in heaven, in name and in everything else, from the very beginning. Infact, He was the creator of all the angels (John 1v3).

But when the Word was made flesh and became Yahshua; He was made a lilttle lower than the angels (Hebrews 2v9). He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8v3). He could suffer temptation and die.

But when He died and rose; Yahshua became exalted and inherited a name better than any angel (Phil 2v10-11). And He sat at the right hand of the Father.

Where was the Word in heaven before He became Yahshua and before He sat at the right hand of the Father? He was in the bossom of the Father in heaven (John 1v18). Same way Lazarus was in the bossom of Abraham in sheol.

But all these arguments are not really the root problem. These arguments are used to mask and evade the real doctrinal error.

Let me ask you this? Do you believe that Jesus is the Word of God? And that ALL things were made by Him -including the world and all the angels?

You are moving towards another topic. Hebrews 1:1, 2 handles this question, through Jesus he(Jah) created the system of things (worlds kjv). If you want more, create another topic.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by Ken4Christ: 7:30pm On May 22, 2015
It is utterly vain to engage in any doctrinal argument with a jw. First, they are not Christian. They do not believe Jesus rose from d dead bodily. Second, it takes a spiritual man to understand spiritual truth. Third, they are very dishonest. Even when u clearly show them their errors, they will deny it. Pls contributors to this thread, save ur time & communicate to those that will hear d gospel and believe to d saving of their souls.

1 Like

Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 12:56am On May 23, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


NOTE : rev 19: 11-16 pictures Jesus leadin the armies of heaven in WAR , Rev 12:7 shows its was the great arch-angel micheal that leads the angels in WAR . Since the son of God is to fight the nations , it is very reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil and his angels .

What is very reasonable is that God's Angels led by their chief Angel Michael would fight the fallen angels led by their chief angel satan.

And that it is the Word of God with His Armies (all of His Saints and perhaps Angels too) that destroy the armys of the world.

That's what the Bible says.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 1:40am On May 23, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:



That Jesus was made better than other angels (messengers) doesnt mean he himsef is not an angel (= messenger 'angelos' ) . The same way king solomons greatness that other kings doesnt mean he (solomon) himself is not a king.
"so King Solomon was greater than all the other kings of the earth" how is he greater? "in riches and wisdom" 2 chro 9:22

Jesus too (a spirit angelos (mal 3:1 septuagint) ) was made better than other spirit angelos how ? " he obtained an excellent name than theirs"

Hebrew 1 is just hightighting the exaltation of the firstborn SON over all other fellow heavenly SONS of God. Though he is a son and a spirit MESSENGER too .


What the Bible say's:

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels,
is clearly saying Jesus is not an Angel

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Is clearly saying God has never said to an Angel:"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"
God has never said to an Angel:"I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 11:25am On May 23, 2015
johnw74:


What is very reasonable is that God's Angels led by their chief Angel Michael would fight the fallen angels led by their chief angel satan.

And that it is the Word of God with His Armies (all of His Saints and perhaps Angels too) that destroy the armys of the world.

That's what the Bible says.


U say perhaps cheesy lols ... Truth is starin at u .
The arch - angel Commands all the armies of heaven..
In Revelatin Jesus commands and leads the armies of heaven.

CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME , WHO THIS PERSON IN JOSHUA 5:14 IS?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 11:28am On May 23, 2015
johnw74:



What the Bible say's:

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels,
is clearly saying Jesus is not an Angel

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Is clearly saying God has never said to an Angel:"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"
God has never said to an Angel:"I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"


Before we proceed to hebrews 1

Who is the "angel of the covenant" in malachi 3:1 ?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 12:38pm On May 23, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


U say perhaps cheesy lols ... Truth is starin at u .
The arch - angel Commands all the armies of heaven..
In Revelatin Jesus commands and leads the armies of heaven.

You say that but scripture doesn't.
1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The Word of God's Armies are all His Saints. If Angels are in this battle they are not mentioned there as coming with Jesus.
However the angels were with Michael when they battled satan and his angels.

The Lord Jesus Christ comes with all His Saints
God has Saints
Michael the angel does not have saints.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 12:47pm On May 23, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


Before we proceed to hebrews 1

Who is the "angel of the covenant" in malachi 3:1 ?

There is no angel of the covernant in Malachi 3:1
Neither John the baptist or Jesus are angels,
it has been explained to you and you cannot understand.
Now go to Hebrews.

johnw74:

What the Bible say's:

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels,
is clearly saying Jesus is not an Angel

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Is clearly saying God has never said to an Angel:"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee"
God has never said to an Angel:"I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son"
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 2:16pm On May 23, 2015
johnw74:


You say that but scripture doesn't.
1Th_3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:14 ... The armies which were in heaven followed him ' who are the armies in heaven ? Angels or dead saints ?

Who is identified as the commander of Gods army in Joshua 5:14 ?
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by dolphinheart(m): 2:17pm On May 23, 2015
Who is interested in explaining what paul was saying in 1 cor 10:1-5 .
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 2:22pm On May 23, 2015
johnw74:


There is no angel of the covernant in Malachi 3:1
Neither John the baptist or Jesus are angels,
it has been explained to you and you cannot understand.
Now go to Hebrews.



english Is confusin u

Angel means "messenger" , is Jesus called a messenger ? YES

Both are called angel (angelos) in d greek septuagint of malachi 3:1 , see matt 11:10 too, u cant denie that ?

Jesus is a spirit messenger (angelos) = angel !

Or dont u know human messengers are called angels too ? ! See rev 2:1 , 2: 12-14 , 3:1
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 12:59am On May 24, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


Rev 19:14 ... The armies which were in heaven followed him ' who are the armies in heaven ? Angels or dead saints ?


That is typically a weak and ridiculous answer which comes from rejecting God's inspired word.

The Saints in Heaven who return with the Word of God are obviously not dead
1Th_3:13 ...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 1:12am On May 24, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


english Is confusin u

Angel means "messenger" , is Jesus called a messenger ? YES

Both are called angel (angelos) in d greek septuagint of malachi 3:1 , see matt 11:10 too, u cant denie that ?

Jesus is a spirit messenger (angelos) = angel !

Or dont u know human messengers are called angels too ? ! See rev 2:1 , 2: 12-14 , 3:1


It has been shown you
messenger can mean angel, prophet, priest, teacher,ambassador,king
depending who it is referring to.

In john the Baptist's case, messenger means "Prophet"
In Jesus Christ's case messenger means "Prophet,Priest, Teacher, and King"

messenger in Malachi 3:1 means anything but Angel
but jw twists all of God's inspired Word to suit their false beliefs.
jw change Truth into lies.

1 Like

Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by johnw74: 1:20am On May 24, 2015
CAPTIVATOR:


U say perhaps cheesy lols ... Truth is starin at u .
The arch - angel Commands all the armies of heaven..
In Revelatin Jesus commands and leads the armies of heaven.

Captivator, the Lord Jesus Christ comes with all His Saints
God has Saints
Angels don't have Saints

According to the following verse,
who is Jesus Christ, God or an Angel?

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

to assist you, we are already told the Word is God

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The word that God in that verse comes from is "theos"
and theos means "God" not "a god"
Re: Another Proof That Jesus Christ Is Not An Angel!!!! by CAPTIVATOR: 7:06pm On May 24, 2015
johnw74:


It has been shown you
Messenger can mean angel , prophet, priest, teacher,ambassador,king
depending who it is referring to.

The bold says it all .....


In john the Baptist's case, messenger means "Prophet"
In Jesus Christ's case messenger means "Prophet,Priest, Teacher, and King"


See how the trinity doctrine has really affected your thinking ! Ur STATEMENT ABOVE IS NOT SCRIPTURAL .

If it mean prophet , please why would the greek scriptures use "angelos" while quotin malachi 3:1 in matthew 11:10 ? Pls answer.

Giv me some comedy, does "angelos" mean prophet ?


messenger in Malachi 3:1 means anything but Angel
.

False reasonin blinded by trinity spectacle , u say it mean anythin but angel BUT matt 11:10 says it mean " angel (angelos) " ? Who is lyin btw d two of u

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