http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Islam-Graham-Fuller/dp/0316041203

What would the world be like without Islam? In A World Without Islam, former CIA official and historian Graham Fuller says it wouldn't be much different from the world today.

According to Fuller, the West's fraught relationship with the Middle East isn't really about religion — and actually predates the spread of Islam.

Fuller tells NPR's Neal Conan that he found "deep-rooted conflicts that still exist over ethnicity or economics or warfare or armies or geopolitics [that] ... really don't have anything to do with Islam, and indeed, existed long before Islam came into existence."

One of those conflicts can be traced all the way back to antiquity.

"The ancient Greeks fought wars with the ancient Persians for several hundred years, from about 500 to 300 B.C., struggling over the same turf," Fuller says. "The people who came to occupy them later, the Byzantine Christians, fought the same wars, and then the Turkish Muslims came and they fought the same wars."

Cover of 'A World Without Islam'
A WORLD WITHOUT ISLAM
BY GRAHAM E. FULLER
HARDBACK, 336 PAGES
LITTLE, BROWN AND CO.
LIST PRICE: $25.99

In his book, Fuller says, "I try to run through a whole lot of events and take Islam out of the equation, and see what we're left with."

And what was left was the idea that the continuity of geopolitics and grievances across the Middle East doesn't need Islam to explain it. Rather, he sees Islam — and religion in general — as a banner in that Islam provided the organizing principle for the Muslim empire that took over much of the world.

"I'm not arguing that Islam has not had great impact on the Middle East region and its cultures and civilization," he says. "But I'm arguing that the nature of conflict between the West and the East does not depend on that, and precedes Islam."

Consider, for example, the struggle over oil and energy in the Middle East.

"If the area were Christian, would the region be any more accepting of big Western oil companies trying to come in and dominate those things?" he asks. "I don't think so."

Fuller says that while he finds imagining the world this way an important and informative exercise, he is in no way advocating for a world without Islam.

"I'm really focusing on the nature of struggle between the East and the West," he says, "and whether Islam plays a significant role in that."

Introduction

If nothing else, I hope this examination will cause readers to rethink the nature of East-West conflict and how Americans, in particular, regard their own foreign policies. Such a process of self-examination comes hard to superpowers; they suffer from their own particular kind of isolation and myopia: possession of great power suggests a security and certitude, an ability to ignore situations that smaller states find threatening or dangerous and that they cannot afford to get wrong. International politics is not unlike the jungle: smaller and weaker animals require acute intelligence, sensitive antennae, and nimbleness of footing to assure their own self-preservation; the strong — such as elephants — need pay less attention to ambient conditions and can often do as they wish, and others will get out of the way.

Power also brings a certain arrogance: the belief that we can control the situation, we are in charge, we can persuade or intimidate with ease — or so we think. Indeed, one senior official in the Bush administration, when asked about looming realities of the wars in the Middle East, stated without a pause, "We create our own realities." The course of events of the past decade reveals how sadly true that has been.

The problem lies in the optic we employ. Washington — perhaps as many global powers have done in the past — uses what I might call the "immaculate conception" theory of crises abroad. That is, we believe we are essentially out there, just minding our own business, trying to help make the world right, only to be endlessly faced with a series of spontaneous, nasty challenges from abroad to which we must react. There is not the slightest consideration that perhaps US policies themselves may have at least contributed to a series of unfolding events. This presents a huge paradox: how can America on the one hand pride itself on being the world’s sole global superpower, with over seven hundred military bases abroad and the Pentagon’s huge global footprint, and yet, on the other hand, be oblivious to and unacknowledging of the magnitude of its own role — for better or for worse — as the dominant force charting the course of world events? This Alice-in-Wonderland delusion affects not just policy makers, but even the glut of think tanks that abound in Washington. In what may otherwise often be intelligent analysis of a foreign situation, the focus of each study is invariably the other country, the other culture, the negative intentions of other players; the impact of US actions and perceptions are quite absent from the equation. It is hard to point to serious analysis from mainstream publications or think tanks that address the role of the United States itself in helping create current problems or crises, through policies of omission or commission. We’re not even talking about blame here; we’re addressing the logical and self-evident fact that the actions of the world’s sole global superpower have huge consequences in the unfolding of international politics. They require examination.

There is a further irony here: How can a nation like the US, which expresses such powerful outpourings of patriotism and ubiquitous unfurling of the flag on all occasions, seem quite obtuse to the existence of nationalism and patriotism in other countries? Washington never fared very well in the Cold War in understanding the motives and emotions of the nonaligned world; it dismissed or even suppressed inconvenient local nationalist aspirations, thereby ending up pushing a large grouping of countries toward greater sympathy with the Soviet Union. This was a kind of strategic blindness that viewed other nations’ interests and preferences as something that needed to be hemmed in, or isolated. We have been obtuse toward nationalism and identity issues in the Middle East and have lumped it all into the basket of "Islam."

When we do not like a foreign adversary, we tend to denigrate them in strong, sometimes nearly apocalyptic terms. One less desirable aspect of democracy is that it seems to require serious demonization of the enemy if the nation and public opinion are to be galvanized sufficiently to pay a serious price in blood or treasure at war. And the message as to why we are in confrontation or at war must be simplified enough to fit on a bumper sticker.

In today’s world, "Islam" has become that bumper sticker for America, the default cause of many of our problems in the Muslim world. In the past we have gone in to do battle with anarchists, Nazis, Fascists, communists — today it is "radical Islam." I put this term in quotation marks not because it does not exist, but because it is a broad and complex phenomenon that comes in various shapes and sizes and requires a wide array of differing responses. The term does not begin to present an accurate or useful description of the kinds of problems we face in dealing with the Muslim world. In even more simpleminded analyses, we sometimes hear that the problem is not "radical Islam" but really perhaps even Islam itself. Why do "they" hate us, why are they violent, why do they "hate democracy," why do they not accept America’s nostrums and values, why do they engage in guerrilla war or terrorism, why do they resist American policies, why will they not accept America’s best-laid plans for their futures — Islam seems to supply a ready answer.

Actually, in many senses there is no "Muslim world" at all, but rather many Muslim worlds, or many Muslim countries and different kinds of Muslims. Nonetheless it is important to acknowledge that under assault and siege from the West in both real and imagined ways, the Muslim world has come together to an unusual degree over past decades. Indeed, US policies over this time have probably done more to forge a common-minded umma — the collective international community of Muslims — than any other factor since the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

History did not begin with 9/11. Our dealings with the Middle East go back a long way. The attack on 9/11 was a violent, extremist, and outrageous act, but it was also almost a culmination of a preceding chain of events over many years. If we choose to see history beginning at 9/11 — whereby we suddenly become the sole justifiably aggrieved party, now authorized to bring vigilante justice to the world — then we will continue to do what we have been doing all along, with disastrous consequences evident to all.

Funny the bastard mentioned 911.

A world without Islam in this 21st century.... That would be a wonderful world..


At least the world would have a short supply of people that think like cows.. (Muslim extremists not all muslims)


But seriously a world without Islam would be twice more peaceful than it is now...

EzioAuditore:

http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Islam-Graham-Fuller/dp/0316041203

What would the world be like without Islam? In A World Without Islam, former CIA official and historian Graham Fuller says it wouldn't be much different from the world today.

According to Fuller, the West's fraught relationship with the Middle East isn't really about religion — and actually predates the spread of Islam.

Fuller tells NPR's Neal Conan that he found "deep-rooted conflicts that still exist over ethnicity or economics or warfare or armies or geopolitics [that] ... really don't have anything to do with Islam, and indeed, existed long before Islam came into existence."

One of those conflicts can be traced all the way back to antiquity.

"The ancient Greeks fought wars with the ancient Persians for several hundred years, from about 500 to 300 B.C., struggling over the same turf," Fuller says. "The people who came to occupy them later, the Byzantine Christians, fought the same wars, and then the Turkish Muslims came and they fought the same wars."

Cover of 'A World Without Islam'
A WORLD WITHOUT ISLAM
BY GRAHAM E. FULLER
HARDBACK, 336 PAGES
LITTLE, BROWN AND CO.
LIST PRICE: $25.99

In his book, Fuller says, "I try to run through a whole lot of events and take Islam out of the equation, and see what we're left with."

And what was left was the idea that the continuity of geopolitics and grievances across the Middle East doesn't need Islam to explain it. Rather, he sees Islam — and religion in general — as a banner in that Islam provided the organizing principle for the Muslim empire that took over much of the world.

"I'm not arguing that Islam has not had great impact on the Middle East region and its cultures and civilization," he says. "But I'm arguing that the nature of conflict between the West and the East does not depend on that, and precedes Islam."

Consider, for example, the struggle over oil and energy in the Middle East.

"If the area were Christian, would the region be any more accepting of big Western oil companies trying to come in and dominate those things?" he asks. "I don't think so."

Fuller says that while he finds imagining the world this way an important and informative exercise, he is in no way advocating for a world without Islam.

"I'm really focusing on the nature of struggle between the East and the West," he says, "and whether Islam plays a significant role in that."

Introduction

If nothing else, I hope this examination will cause readers to rethink the nature of East-West conflict and how Americans, in particular, regard their own foreign policies. Such a process of self-examination comes hard to superpowers; they suffer from their own particular kind of isolation and myopia: possession of great power suggests a security and certitude, an ability to ignore situations that smaller states find threatening or dangerous and that they cannot afford to get wrong. International politics is not unlike the jungle: smaller and weaker animals require acute intelligence, sensitive antennae, and nimbleness of footing to assure their own self-preservation; the strong — such as elephants — need pay less attention to ambient conditions and can often do as they wish, and others will get out of the way.

Power also brings a certain arrogance: the belief that we can control the situation, we are in charge, we can persuade or intimidate with ease — or so we think. Indeed, one senior official in the Bush administration, when asked about looming realities of the wars in the Middle East, stated without a pause, "We create our own realities." The course of events of the past decade reveals how sadly true that has been.

The problem lies in the optic we employ. Washington — perhaps as many global powers have done in the past — uses what I might call the "immaculate conception" theory of crises abroad. That is, we believe we are essentially out there, just minding our own business, trying to help make the world right, only to be endlessly faced with a series of spontaneous, nasty challenges from abroad to which we must react. There is not the slightest consideration that perhaps US policies themselves may have at least contributed to a series of unfolding events. This presents a huge paradox: how can America on the one hand pride itself on being the world’s sole global superpower, with over seven hundred military bases abroad and the Pentagon’s huge global footprint, and yet, on the other hand, be oblivious to and unacknowledging of the magnitude of its own role — for better or for worse — as the dominant force charting the course of world events? This Alice-in-Wonderland delusion affects not just policy makers, but even the glut of think tanks that abound in Washington. In what may otherwise often be intelligent analysis of a foreign situation, the focus of each study is invariably the other country, the other culture, the negative intentions of other players; the impact of US actions and perceptions are quite absent from the equation. It is hard to point to serious analysis from mainstream publications or think tanks that address the role of the United States itself in helping create current problems or crises, through policies of omission or commission. We’re not even talking about blame here; we’re addressing the logical and self-evident fact that the actions of the world’s sole global superpower have huge consequences in the unfolding of international politics. They require examination.

There is a further irony here: How can a nation like the US, which expresses such powerful outpourings of patriotism and ubiquitous unfurling of the flag on all occasions, seem quite obtuse to the existence of nationalism and patriotism in other countries? Washington never fared very well in the Cold War in understanding the motives and emotions of the nonaligned world; it dismissed or even suppressed inconvenient local nationalist aspirations, thereby ending up pushing a large grouping of countries toward greater sympathy with the Soviet Union. This was a kind of strategic blindness that viewed other nations’ interests and preferences as something that needed to be hemmed in, or isolated. We have been obtuse toward nationalism and identity issues in the Middle East and have lumped it all into the basket of "Islam."

When we do not like a foreign adversary, we tend to denigrate them in strong, sometimes nearly apocalyptic terms. One less desirable aspect of democracy is that it seems to require serious demonization of the enemy if the nation and public opinion are to be galvanized sufficiently to pay a serious price in blood or treasure at war. And the message as to why we are in confrontation or at war must be simplified enough to fit on a bumper sticker.

In today’s world, "Islam" has become that bumper sticker for America, the default cause of many of our problems in the Muslim world. In the past we have gone in to do battle with anarchists, Nazis, Fascists, communists — today it is "radical Islam." I put this term in quotation marks not because it does not exist, but because it is a broad and complex phenomenon that comes in various shapes and sizes and requires a wide array of differing responses. The term does not begin to present an accurate or useful description of the kinds of problems we face in dealing with the Muslim world. In even more simpleminded analyses, we sometimes hear that the problem is not "radical Islam" but really perhaps even Islam itself. Why do "they" hate us, why are they violent, why do they "hate democracy," why do they not accept America’s nostrums and values, why do they engage in guerrilla war or terrorism, why do they resist American policies, why will they not accept America’s best-laid plans for their futures — Islam seems to supply a ready answer.

Actually, in many senses there is no "Muslim world" at all, but rather many Muslim worlds, or many Muslim countries and different kinds of Muslims. Nonetheless it is important to acknowledge that under assault and siege from the West in both real and imagined ways, the Muslim world has come together to an unusual degree over past decades. Indeed, US policies over this time have probably done more to forge a common-minded umma — the collective international community of Muslims — than any other factor since the time of the Prophet Muhammad.

History did not begin with 9/11. Our dealings with the Middle East go back a long way. The attack on 9/11 was a violent, extremist, and outrageous act, but it was also almost a culmination of a preceding chain of events over many years. If we choose to see history beginning at 9/11 — whereby we suddenly become the sole justifiably aggrieved party, now authorized to bring vigilante justice to the world — then we will continue to do what we have been doing all along, with disastrous consequences evident to all.

Hear what the quran say about them and their likes:

[2.11] And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
[2.12] Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

johnydon22:
A world without Islam in this 21st century.... That would be a wonderful world..


At least the world would have a short supply of people that think like cows.. (Muslim extremists not all muslims)


But seriously a world without Islam would be twice more peaceful than it is now...

Can you please tell me when the world has ever been peaceful? Ignorant!
Was the worid war 1 and 2 caused by islam?
Ignoramus!

eshbeewanna:


Hear what the quran say about them and their likes:

[2.11] And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
[2.12] Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

It just makes perfect sense! It's as if it's referring to them directly! Wallahi! He who rejects the true faith, he who rejects the true book is undoubtedly a great loser!

johnydon22:
A world without Islam in this 21st century.... That would be a wonderful world..


At least the world would have a short supply of people that think like cows.. (Muslim extremists not all muslims)


But seriously a world without Islam would be twice more peaceful than it is now...

With or without islam, people will always think like cows. Its in human nature to be inhumane.

Zobek:


With or without islam, people will always think like cows. Its in human nature to be inhumane.

Mentally, physically and emotionally we are the same, we each have the potential to great good or evil and to be overcome by disturbing emotions such as anger, fear, suspicion and greed.
On the other hand, if we cultivate loving kindness and concern for others, they will be no room for anger, jealousy and hatred.

it is not human nature to be inhumane, rather it is human nature to be able to achieve great good or great evil.

With or without islam the world still will be filled with evil people but at least let people act on their choice not on religious grounds and beliefs.

Without religion, you will have good people doing good and bad people doing bad. it takes religion to make good people do great evil cheerfully thinking it is good..

johnydon22:


Mentally, physically and emotionally we are the same, we each have the potential to great good or evil and to be overcome by disturbing emotions such as anger, fear, suspicion and greed.
On the other hand, if we cultivate loving kindness and concern for others, they will be no room for anger, jealousy and hatred.

it is not human nature to be inhumane, rather it is human nature to be able to achieve great good or great evil.

With or without islam the world still will be filled with evil people but at least let people act on their choice not on religious grounds and beliefs.

Without religion, you will have good people doing good and bad people doing bad. it takes religion to make good people do great evil cheerfully thinking it is good..

I beg ro differ. Have you heard of psychopaths/sociopaths? People like jack the ripper and charles manson do the evil things they do cheerfully, they are not religious nutcases, they're just nuts. Or for instance tribal wars and tribal cleansing, like the case of rwanda, one tribe was wiping out the other, cheerfully, again, religion not involved. As a matter of fact, if not for religion to guide people, they will be a lot more violent, and they will recurr a lot more often. Don't forget the ego maniacs, why should they bow to the laws of common men? Are the people who came up with these laws better than them? Just think! The religious wars currently going on, do you really think its all about religion?

Zobek:


I beg ro differ. Have you heard of psychopaths/sociopaths? People like jack the ripper and charles manson do the evil things they do cheerfully, they are not religious nutcases, they're just nuts. Or for instance tribal wars and tribal cleansing, like the case of rwanda, one tribe was wiping out the other, cheerfully, again, religion not involved. As a matter of fact, if not for religion to guide people, they will be a lot more violent, and they will recurr a lot more often. Don't forget the ego maniacs, why should they bow to the laws of common men? Are the people who came up with these laws better than them? Just think! The religious wars currently going on, do you really think its all about religion?

Am very quite sure i never said only religions cause violence... "we all have potentials for great good and great evil

my last statement was it takes religion to make a good person do bad thing thinking its the good thing

e.g : ISIL murdering infidels and homosexuals in the name of God, thinking they are doing the right thing.

Christians during the medieval ages burning heretics, alleged witches at the stake in the name of God, thinking its the right thing..

Examine that context

johnydon22:


Am very quite sure i never said only religions cause violence... "we all have potentials for great good and great evil

my last statement was it takes religion to make a good person do bad thing thinking its the good thing

e.g : ISIL murdering infidels and homosexuals in the name of God, thinking they are doing the right thing.

Christians during the medieval ages burning heretics, alleged witches at the stake in the name of God, thinking its the right thing..

Examine that context

Yes, and I gave you examples of people doing things cheerfully just because they enjoy it, they love it, they love the rush, they love seeing blood rushing out of peoples neck, they love to see the fear in peoples eyes. Or when they kill people they see as different from them, maybe because they are black or white or because they are of a different tribe. It feels right to them, it feels good.

Zobek:


Yes, and I gave you examples of people doing things cheerfully just because they enjoy it, they love it, they love the rush, they love seeing blood rushing out of peoples neck, they love to see the fear in peoples eyes. Or when they kill people they see as different from them, maybe because they are black or white or because they are of a different tribe. It feels right to them, it feels good.

Actually doesn't feel right to them because they are overcome by hatred or jealousy or anger which in turn pushes them to go against empathy.

Talk about cheerfulness is murdering your fellow man thinking you are pleasing a god and expecting a reward for it in heaven after you are dead.

johnydon22:


Actually doesn't feel right to them because they are overcome by hatred or jealousy or anger which in turn pushes them to go against empathy.

Talk about cheerfulness is murdering your fellow man thinking you are pleasing a god and expecting a reward for it in heaven after you are dead.

And I speak to you of those who kill to please themselves.

EzioAuditore:


And I speak to you of those who kill to please themselves.

That is why i said "we will have good people doing good and bad people doing bad"

johnydon22:


That is why i said "we will have good people doing good and bad people doing bad"

But you said bad people only do bad things cheerfully because of religion. Should I assume you've changed your stance on that?

EzioAuditore:


But you said bad people only do bad things cheerfully because of religion. Should I assume you've changed your stance on that?

its seems you have a problem reading

here are my words

it takes religion to make a good person do bad
thing thinking its the good thing

Next time, read a post before quoting it to avoid always misrepresenting other people's words.

johnydon22:


its seems you have a problem reading

here are my words

it takes religion to make a good person do bad
thing thinking its the good thing

Next time, read a post before quoting it to avoid always misrepresenting other people's words.

And it seems you have a problem understanding the words you write. Did I not give you an example with the Rwandan genocide? The people butchering the tutsies or whatever, don't you know they thought they were doing the right thing? Don't you know they believed they were ridding the world of evil. Johnny, open your mind and stop thinking like a goat. No offense.

EzioAuditore:


And it seems you have a problem understanding the words you write. Did I not give you an example with the Rwandan genocide? The people butchering the tutsies or whatever, don't you know they thought they were doing the right thing? Don't you know they believed they were ridding the world of evil. Johnny, open your mind and stop thinking like a goat. No offense.

#sighs... what was i expecting... Dude you practically do not know or can ever recognize the difference between the two context, should i waste more of my time with you?

Naah, not worth it... Run along now..

johnydon22:


#sighs... what was i expecting... Dude you practically do not know or can ever recognize the difference between the two context, should i waste more of my time with you?

Naah, not worth it... Run along now..

No, you just realised that you're on a foools errand, and what you're proposing or rather implying will never hold. You may blame it on my intellect but deep down you know your argument is flawed, so you can make excuses all you want, it won't change anything.

eshbeewanna:


Hear what the quran say about them and their likes:

[2.11] And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
[2.12] Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

exactly... the man hide alot of facts in his write up... facts he know but can't say... the truth about Osama and other terrorist group and individual is on my blog..... USA OWNS EVERY ONE OF THEM