AllNaijaBlogger:




You are the one "adjusting" the bible's message. The good Samaritan was not a christian. Samaritans did not follow Christ or Judaism.


If Jesus could use the Good Samaritan to relate to heaven (eternal life), who are you to state that unbelievers cant go to heaven because of not having faith in Christ?

AllNaijaBlogger , that was what I was saying .. you were adjusting the bible to please the atheist . Maybe the statement wasn't for 'likes' but to sound reasonable to them

AllNaijaBlogger:




You are the one "adjusting" the bible's message. The good Samaritan was not a christian. Samaritans did not follow Christ or Judaism.


If Jesus could use the Good Samaritan to relate to heaven (eternal life), who are you to state that unbelievers cant go to heaven because of not having faith in Christ?

Lol. I am? Hahahahahahahahaha. I was actually asking if you thought I should. I didn't accuse you of anything but here you are throwing a counter accusation. You know, that says a lot.

Now, I'm not sure that there's something about the story of the good Samaritan that said that one need not believe in the Son of God to be justified before God. I've seen no evidence of such. And I don't remember Jesus saying that he was about to tell a true story about a man who either went to or was going to heaven. I remember him telling that story to demonstrate what he meant by "neighbor". He used traditional enemies (Samaritans and Jews) to explain who a person's neighbor is and thus show that the love he commanded us to have for our neighbors was to embrace even those we hate. I don't know where your own exegesis is coming from.

Again, I'll say what you in your great wisdom failed to read in my last answer to you: God does not want anyone to perish. So he will do everything possible to get everyone into the Kingdom of Heaven. If anyone does not get in it will be because they didn't want to. All the criteria God has given for entrance, as far as I know and am given permission to preach, is one: that all men who hear the Gospel must believe in the Son of God to be saved. He did not tell me to say anything more. I'm sure he'll take care of those who don't hear somehow and of those who hear and don't understand. Me, my job is to tell of Christ and if anyone believes, I'll baptize them if I find water and lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit and help them understand the teachings of Christ as I too am helped. That is my job as a Christian and an evangelist. Nothing more.

ihedinobi2:


Then your interest in atheists' condemnation to hell makes no sense.

It is so obvious that it is actually painful now to see that you don't know anything of the things you speak of. I could explain a seventh time about faith/belief and character and you would still repeat the above. Just like you're stuck in some kind of loop.

If it will help you at all (I doubt that it will but still), I don't care about your opinion of Paul, myself or Jesus. You waste your time voicing them.

Lol.
You are the one who have made no sense so far with your posts.
Faith does not create an alternative reality different from the one that atheists and theists share. Your faith is nothing more than your personal delusion, a stimulant, a placebo that makes you feel a little better about yourself.

It does not affect reality. It only affects you because you admit that you cannot be good, moral, ethical and good without it.
Once you understand and accept that, then we have nothing to argue about.

What exactly is so special about the message of Jesus? Why should any body burn in eternity for not accepting how Jesus said people should live? Jesus said both good and bad things, so why should people burn for not accepting his messages. Many Christians the world over are coming to terms with this sadistic nature of hell that is why many are already running away from it or trying to give it a new meaning of their own.

plaetton:

Lol.
You are the one who have made no sense so far with your posts.
Faith does not create an alternative reality different from the one that atheists and theists share. Your faith is nothing more than your personal delusion, a stimulant, a placebo that makes you feel a little better about yourself.

It does not affect reality. It only affects you because you admit that you cannot be good, moral, ethical and good without it.
Once you understand and accept that, then we have nothing to argue about.

Oh my God! There's no emoji for this one. I have to accept the nonsense you concocted so that you can be happy and get on with your life? Lmao! You got a long wait coming.

You do good all by yourself, abi? You don't need Jesus to be a good person, abi? You don't believe there is a heaven or a hell, abi? Ngwanu, nwanna, nakpuzienu ura. What are we making noise about again? You cannot go to a hell that does not exist however much Christians shout that you are. I only lose sleep over Muslims when some of them start blowing people up...incidentally because what you believe and refuse to believe governs what you do. I don't waste my time on their forum talking about virgins in paradise and their own brand of hell fire. Makes no difference to me. Why should it bother you whether I think you're going to hell?

And since you're good all by yourself and need neither Jesus's merits to justify you nor his Spirit to make you good, leave me to my Faith and undenied need for both. My Faith in Christ makes me good and justified before God and I'll never go to hell because I have it. Very effectual faith, if you want to know. And, yes, I cannot be good or acceptable to God by myself, thar's why Jesus is so important to me. He makes me good. But you don't need that, do you?

ihedinobi2:

belief limits action. If you believe in Christ you will do as Christ says. If you do things that contradict what Christ stands for then you have already denied him.

The judgment day is for discovering the truth of every claim. On that day if someone has been deceiving himself that he is Christ's while living in disobedience to the same Christ he will see the truth of his claims and receive his due reward.

It's really odd that you keep repeating this at the same time you are arguing with a fellow Christian about... what Christ actually says. Anyone should deduce by now that what "Christ says" is what you want him to say and with the sheer amount of contradictions in the bible, it's not hard to find verses that support either side. I don't know how this eludes you.

ihedinobi2:


Lol. I am? Hahahahahahahahaha. I was actually asking if you thought I should. I didn't accuse you of anything but here you are throwing a counter accusation. You know, that says a lot.

Now, I'm not sure that there's something about the story of the good Samaritan that said that one need not believe in the Son of God to be justified before God. I've seen no evidence of such. And I don't remember Jesus saying that he was about to tell a true story about a man who either went to or was going to heaven. I remember him telling that story to demonstrate what he meant by "neighbor". He used traditional enemies (Samaritans and Jews) to explain who a person's neighbor is and thus show that the love he commanded us to have for our neighbors was to embrace even those we hate. I don't know where your own exegesis is coming from.

Again, I'll say what you in your great wisdom failed to read in my last answer to you: God does not want anyone to perish. So he will do everything possible to get everyone into the Kingdom of Heaven. If anyone does not get in it will be because they didn't want to. All the criteria God has given for entrance, as far as I know and am given permission to preach, is one: that all men who hear the Gospel must believe in the Son of God to be saved. He did not tell me to say anything more. I'm sure he'll take care of those who don't hear somehow and of those who hear and don't understand. Me, my job is to tell of Christ and if anyone believes, I'll baptize them if I find water and lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit and help them understand the teachings of Christ as I too am helped. That is my job as a Christian and an evangelist. Nothing more.

Your job as a christian is to show love and not to baptize people. Baptism is a choice that has to be made by the baptized. By their works you shall know them. I prefer to live a life of leading by examples rather than just preaching without works.

I can now see that you are scripturally ignorant. The good samaritan is about eternal life. Go and read your bible again.

ihedinobi2:
God does not want anyone to perish. So he will do everything possible to get everyone into the Kingdom of Heaven. If anyone does not get in it will be because they didn't want to.

Doesn't sound so 'omnipotent' now, does he?

Does freewill override omnipotence?

ihedinobi2:


Oh my God! There's no emoji for this one. I have to accept the nonsense you concocted so that you can be happy and get on with your life? Lmao! You got a long wait coming.

You do good all by yourself, abi? You don't need Jesus to be a good person, abi? You don't believe there is a heaven or a hell, abi? Ngwanu, nwanna, nakpuzienu ura. What are we making noise about again? You cannot go to a hell that does not exist however much Christians shout that you are. I only lose sleep over Muslims when some of them start blowing people up...incidentally because what you believe and refuse to believe governs what you do. I don't waste my time on their forum talking about virgins in paradise and their own brand of hell fire. Makes no difference to me. Why should it bother you whether I think you're going to hell?

And since you're good all by yourself and need neither Jesus's merits to justify you nor his Spirit to make you good, leave me to my Faith and undenied need for both. My Faith in Christ makes me good and justified before God and I'll never go to hell because I have it. Very effectual faith, if you want to know. And, yes, I cannot be good or acceptable to God by myself, thar's why Jesus is so important to me. He makes me good. But you don't need that, do you?

You have said it all.
Of course, Jesus makes you good.
I am assuming that Jesus also makes paedophile catholic priests good also. He molds their character, all of them, the millions of them that the church has gifted to the world since 1st century AD.
Hhhhmm!
I wonder if paedophile priests would go to hell or would be saved by the strength of their faith in Jeeezus.

BTW , no one invited or forced you post on this thread. So don't sulk when you end up making a fool of yourself all by yourself .

And for your information and for you others, let me repeat why I and many atheists spend a lot of time in the Religilous section.
You see, my dimwitted townsman, in every nation there are always a ver small minority of people who exist and live on the fringes of lunacy. It's part of social evolution.

The very sad thing here, and what brings atheists here, is that the in our nation, the far majority of people are systematically being relegated to the fringes of lunacy on account of the lunatic and schizophrenic religions of the middle east.
Therefore, we would rather do something, not matter how small, than do nothing at all to push back and roll back this disease.
Simple.

ihedinobi2:


Tex, belief limits action. If you believe in Christ you will do as Christ says. If you do things that contradict what Christ stands for then you have already denied him.

The judgment day is for discovering the truth of every claim. On that day if someone has been deceiving himself that he is Christ's while living in disobedience to the same Christ he will see the truth of his claims and receive his due reward.

I'm surprised by this question. Why would you even ask it? Jesus died for the whole world. The Bible says exactly that, does it not?

My entire response was sarcastic, especially my last question. I know very well the answer.

As to the bolded:

History has shown that belief does not limit action. It enhances it, and not always in the best way.


I usually only comment on the Atheist threads. I am often sarcastic, and this has lead some to question my Christianity. I do it because we, as Christians, are often our worst enemy.


We show by our actions and our words, in many cases, that we are not Christ-like. We become the fodder that fuels the Arheist propaganda machine.

texanomaly:


My entire response was sarcastic, especially my last question. I know very well the answer.

As to the bolded:

History has shown that belief does not limit action. It enhances it, and not always in the best way.


I usually only comment on the Atheist threads. I am often sarcastic, and this has lead some to question my Christianity. I do it because we, as Christians, are often our worst enemy.


We show by our actions and our words, in many cases, that we are not Christ-like. We become the fodder that fuels the Arheist propaganda machine.

Hypocrisy termed sarcasm

AlfaSeltzer:


Hypocrisy termed sarcasm

Stalker

texanomaly:


Stalker

Guilty

texanomaly:


My entire response was sarcastic, especially my last question. I know very well the answer.

As to the bolded:

History has shown that belief does not limit action. It enhances it, and not always in the best way.


I usually only comment on the Atheist threads. I am often sarcastic, and this has lead some to question my Christianity. I do it because we, as Christians, are often our worst enemy.


We show by our actions and our words, in many cases, that we are not Christ-like. We become the fodder that fuels the Arheist propaganda machine.

Of course it was. I just wondered why you were being sarcastic.

First, you are wrong about the bolded. Completely wrong. What you believe is what you act on. If you doubt that you can walk, you won't. If you believe that a chair can take your weight you'll sit on it. Conscious or not, every time humans take any action it is because of something they either believe or don't believe. Never can belief be divorced from action. Never. And THAT is what I mean by "belief limits action". Your actions are limited to what you believe.

Second, Christians may be whatever they may be. A lot of us are confused about what Christ is about. And there are many impostors among us. But heaven forbid that I ever be found companying with the ones who make it a pastime to attack my family. Their weaknesses are mine to protect and eliminate not to take a dig at with these smart alecs. I do not care about atheists and their need for excuses as much as I care that everyone who names the name of the Lord is ready when the Call goes out.

plaetton:

You have said it all.
Of course, Jesus makes you good.
I am assuming that Jesus also makes paedophile catholic priests good also. He molds their character, all of them, the millions of them that the church has gifted to the world since 1st century AD.
Hhhhmm!
I wonder if paedophile priests would go to hell or would be saved by the strength of their faith in Jeeezus.

BTW , no one invited or forced you post on this thread. So don't sulk when you end up making a fool of yourself all by yourself .

And for your information and for you others, let me repeat why I and many atheists spend a lot of time in the Religilous section.
You see, my dimwitted townsman, in every nation there are always a ver small minority of people who exist and live on the fringes of lunacy. It's part of social evolution.

The very sad thing here, and what brings atheists here, is that the in our nation, the far majority of people are systematically being relegated to the fringes of lunacy on account of the lunatic and schizophrenic religions of the middle east.
Therefore, we would rather do something, not matter how small, than do nothing at all to push back and roll back this disease.
Simple.

Lol. The thread did not interest me at all. I came for tex alone. You decided to come and try to make yourself feel better about your atheism. I could care less about your crusade against your imagined lunacy.

Yes o, plaetton, Jesus makes me goooooooood!!!! I'm good, plaetton. I'm not losing sleep over the existence of hell. I'm busy building companies to make Nigeria a better place because it's what Jesus made me able to do. I'm building heaven on earth because Jesus made me a citizen of heaven.

Now, you don't need Jesus because you neither lie nor steal, you never sleep with women that aren't your wife and you've never done that. You haven't ever swindled anyone. You have never spoken ungracefully. You don't cheat. You've never taken undue advantage of those weaker than you nor do you. Oh, right. You make your own rules so what does all that mean to you? If you don't like the stress in doing something, simply decide that it isn't in your "good things to do" book and get on with your life and then come and complain that Christians who are worse than you are going to heaven while you're going to hell. Lol. Plaetton, pity yourself nau.

Good luck on your war against lunacy, my intelligent townsman.

ihedinobi2:


Of course it was. I just wondered why you were being sarcastic.

First, you are wrong about the bolded. Completely wrong. What you believe is what you act on. If you doubt that you can walk, you won't. If you believe that a chair can take your weight you'll sit on it. Conscious or not, every time humans take any action it is because of something they either believe or don't believe. Never can belief be divorced from action. Never. And THAT is what I mean by "belief limits action". Your actions are limited to what you believe.

Second, Christians may be whatever they may be. A lot of us are confused about what Christ is about. And there are many impostors among us. But heaven forbid that I ever be found companying with the ones who make it a pastime to attack my family. Their weaknesses are mine to protect and eliminate not to take a dig at with these smart alecs. I do not care about atheists and their need for excuses as much as I care that everyone who names the name of the Lord is ready when the Call goes out.

Hmmmm...so why are you here?

DProDG:


Doesn't sound so 'omnipotent' now, does he?

Does freewill override omnipotence?

It's an observation I made debating with atheists for so long. You people have real difficult understanding or even seeing what you read. You and I met on xcapizt's thread on the omnipotence paradox, did we not? And here you are asking me what I answered there. You people just like the noise you make.

Now, try this and see if you can try to understand it. God loves. God has unopposable power. Love is not tyrannical. Therefore even with unopposable power God will not coerce those weaker than him. Can you understand that?

texanomaly:


Hmmmm...so why are you here?

Tex, I came here for you. I didn't even read the op until I saw that plaetton and AllNaijaBlogger wouldn't stop nipping at my heels.

ihedinobi2:


Tex, I came here for you. I didn't even read the op until I saw that plaetton and AllNaijaBlogger wouldn't stop nipping at my heels.

Awwwww...such a sweetheart.

AllNaijaBlogger:



Your job as a christian is to show love and not to baptize people. Baptism is a choice that has to be made by the baptized. By their works you shall know them. I prefer to live a life of leading by examples rather than just preaching without works.

I can now see that you are scripturally ignorant. The good samaritan is about eternal life. Go and read your bible again.

I don't know my Bible? And you are the one saying that my job is not to baptize people? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Biko, go and read the Great Commission. You have been too long away from your Bible. Maybe you were too busy hanging out in the wrong camp. Lol.

My friend, there's no need to overflog the issue. You need to dust off your Bible. Start at that story of the Good Samaritan. As for me, rest assured that my Bible is never too far from me. I like it like that. Keeps me safe and warm and makes better company than plaetton and his like.

DProDG:


It's really odd that you keep repeating this at the same time you are arguing with a fellow Christian about... what Christ actually says. Anyone should deduce by now that what "Christ says" is what you want him to say and with the sheer amount of contradictions in the bible, it's not hard to find verses that support either side. I don't know how this eludes you.

Buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha. Thank goodness I saw this now. I'd have gotten addicted to this dose of humor and been useless all day if you posted in the morning too.

So you saw that I was repeating myself. Your brother and friend seemed curiously blind to it. Seven times and counting. Lol. But since you can't argue against it you want to fight over contradictions in the Bible. Lol. My friend, don't you have something else to do?

Contradictions? Yes, they exist. Not in the Bible though, just in you. Plaetton is an apt example. Thinks Christ's teachings are all that but doesn't need them to be good. And he spends forever arguing whether he should go to hell based on those teachings. But he doesn't think Jesus ever existed. Why does he bother, I can't help wondering? You are the same. You just need to fight. Only you can never tell who your enemy is. It's not the truth about belief and actions now, it's contradictions in the Bible. You want to start drawing timelines and showing us how writers of the Bible confused details?

Find something more original to try and waste my time with, dude.

ihedinobi2:


It's an observation I made debating with atheists for so long. You people have real difficult understanding or even seeing what you read. You and I met on xcapizt's thread on the omnipotence paradox, did we not? And here you are asking me what I answered there. You people just like the noise you make.

Now, try this and see if you can try to understand it. God loves. God has unopposable power. Love is not tyrannical. Therefore even with unopposable power God will not coerce those weaker than him. Can you understand that?

Well there you go again with another perfect example of a paradox which, for some reason, you haven't been able to grasp. I'm not gonna bother explaining 'cause I did that already in the thread you mentioned to no avail...

ihedinobi2:
...I don't know any examples of logical paradoxes.

ihedinobi2:
...I'm asking this: would I have an example if logical paradoxes don't exist? Why the assumption that they do?

Are you sure this reply was meant for the post you quoted 'cause it seems like you surprisenly missed the point totally or just ignored it.

ihedinobi2:
Buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha. Thank goodness I saw this now. I'd have gotten addicted to this dose of humor and been useless all day if you posted in the morning too.

So you saw that I was repeating myself. Your brother and friend seemed curiously blind to it. Seven times and counting. Lol. But since you can't argue against it you want to fight over contradictions in the Bible. Lol. My friend, don't you have something else to do?

Your repetition is what made me call you out. How you don't understand that, I don't know. Ironically, it's you and AllNaijaBlogger that are arguing about contradictions.

I don't know why you are so concerned with how other people spend their free time, especially since it doesn't affect you in anyway. Sounds like something I'll do when I'm loosing an argument.

Contradictions? Yes, they exist. Not in the Bible though, just in you. Plaetton is an apt example. Thinks Christ's teachings are all that but doesn't need them to be good. And he spends forever arguing whether he should go to hell based on those teachings. But he doesn't think Jesus ever existed. Why does he bother, I can't help wondering? You are the same. You just need to fight. Only you can never tell who your enemy is. It's not the truth about belief and actions now, it's contradictions in the Bible. You want to start drawing timelines and showing us how writers of the Bible confused details?

Find something more original to try and waste my time with, dude.

And what's your point? Let me reiterate in baby language this time if my first wasn't straight forward enough...

See ehn, you said...

belief limits action. If you believe in Christ you will do as Christ says. If you do things that contradict what Christ stands for then you have already denied him.

and I said that whatever Christ stands for is what you want him to stand for. The fact that you were arguing with another Christian that equally thinks his POV is what Christ stands for is evident of that. Not to mention the no true Scotsman fallacy in play there.

You've previously shown that contradictions and paradoxes make no sense to you so I don't expect you to understand this though.

ihedinobi2:

Tex, I came here for you. I didn't even read the op until I saw that plaetton and AllNaijaBlogger wouldn't stop nipping at my heels.

texanomaly:


Awwwww...such a sweetheart.

ihedinobi2:




I don't know my Bible? And you are the one saying that my job is not to baptize people? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Biko, go and read the Great Commission. You have been too long away from your Bible. Maybe you were too busy hanging out in the wrong camp. Lol.

My friend, there's no need to overflog the issue. You need to dust off your Bible. Start at that story of the Good Samaritan. As for me, rest assured that my Bible is never too far from me. I like it like that. Keeps me safe and warm and makes better company than plaetton and his like.

I just pity you, honestly. If both atheists and christians were telling me that I am wrong, I would reconsider my position. Don't let arrogance cloud your judgement.


Here is the passage on the Good samaritan;

Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, [Deuteronomy 6:5];
and your neighbour as yourself [Leviticus 19:18]."
He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."
But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbour?"

*Jesus then told the story of the good Samaritan

Eternal life.

DProDG:


Well there you go again with another perfect example of a paradox which, for some reason, you haven't been able to grasp. I'm not gonna bother explaining 'cause I did that already in the thread you mentioned to no avail...

Now, it's back to logical paradoxes. Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

DProDG:
Are you sure this reply was meant for the post you quoted 'cause it seems like you surprisenly missed the point totally or just ignored it.



Your repetition is what made me call you out. How you don't understand that, I don't know. Ironically, it's you and AllNaijaBlogger that are arguing about contradictions.

I don't know why you are so concerned with how other people spend their free time, especially since it doesn't affect you in anyway. Sounds like something I'll do when I'm loosing an argument.



And what's your point? Let me reiterate in baby language this time if my first wasn't straight forward enough...

See ehn, you said... and I said that whatever Christ stands for is what you want him to stand for. The fact that you were arguing with another Christian that equally thinks his POV is what Christ stands for is evident of that. Not to mention the no true Scotsman fallacy in play there.

You've previously shown that contradictions and paradoxes make no sense to you so I don't expect you to understand this though.

You're easily my favorite now. At least you're trying to bring in something new. And you're being pretty inventive about it too.

So AllNaijaBlogger and I are discussing contradictions? Who knew? I thought he was trying to show me how I'm a foolish Christian who won't credit you atheists with some sense and I was trying to show him how he is an arrogant Christian who has forgotten his name. Maybe you really mean the Good Samaritan part, eh. Eternal life and loving your neighbor are a contradiction of each other, okwa ya?

You concern yourself with how people are spending their free time when you're losing an argument? That's interesting. I think that when I'm losing, I start thinking harder about what I misunderstood. I make fun of people who are spending their time sniffing around a God that they are sure does not exist when I'm bored and in need of entertainment. I haven't had any real argument since I got here. Repeating myself seven times has got to prove that, hasn't it? D

AllNaijaBlogger:



I just pity you, honestly. If both atheists and christians were telling me that I am wrong, I would reconsider my position. Don't let arrogance cloud your judgement.


Here is the passage on the Good samaritan;




Eternal life.

Lmao!!!

See? That's the difference between me and you. I KNOW what I believe. I have studied to show myself approved. The entire world telling me I'm wrong wouldn't matter a damn or budge me half an inch. You call it arrogance because you are yet to know what it's like to know the Truth. It's not arrogance, my brother, it's knowledge. I KNOW. Period.

Like Daniel said, they that KNOW their God shall be strong and do exploits. I am not a bobbing côck on the ocean or a wind vane that is blown every which way popular opinions go, mm.


Lol. Can't help you there if you're looking straight at that passage and yarning what you are yarning.

ihedinobi2:


Lmao!!!

See? That's the difference between me and you. I KNOW what I believe. I have studied to show myself approved. The entire world telling me I'm wrong wouldn't matter a damn or budge me half an inch. You call it arrogance because you are yet to know what it's like to know the Truth. It's not arrogance, my brother, it's knowledge. I KNOW. Period.

Like Daniel said, they that KNOW their God shall be strong and do exploits. I am not a bobbing côck on the ocean or a wind vane that is blown every which way popular opinions go, mm.


Lol. Can't help you there if you're looking straight at that passage and yarning what you are yarning.

@ bold,

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.









Goodbye

so this fine thread was abandoned ...

So no one answered op's dumb question?

Hell is sinners' home. Atheists are unbelievers and sinners. They must rot in hell

onetrack:


Exactly. Depending on your religion, in heaven you either mindlessly sing songs of praise all day, or you mindlessly have sex with virgins.

Where are the football rivalries, the jokes between friends, the exploration of new places, political and religious debates, the challenge of discovering new ways to solve problems, tasting a new and delicious food; in short, anything that makes life interesting?

Heaven, as described, does not interest me. Even the virgins would be boring, since virgins don't know what to do. Also a permanent erec.tion would get annoying after a while. And singing songs of praise all day? Don't get me started.

After the women have been disvirgin what will happen to them? Just thinking out loud