My dear people of Africa, I was wondering today, how can we as a continent break free from western destruction? It is clear the western world is destroying Africa. Using our own brothers and sisters to destroy our dear continent. Using our faith, our greed, our anger, our hate and our inability to see life beyound "today and now" to destroy us. Please how do we break free from all this and creat a beautiful green continent called Africa? Please lets rub minds and see what we can do o.
The news around the world don tire me. Africans are now seen as the pests invading modern worlds. Biko how do we save Africa and save the face of the Black man?

delishpot:
My dear people of Africa, I was wondering today, how can we as a continent break free from western destruction? It is clear the western world is destroying Africa. Using our own brothers and sisters to destroy our dear continent. Using our faith, our greed, our anger, our hate and our inability to see life beyound "today and now" to destroy us. Please how do we break free from all this and creat a beautiful green continent called Africa?

this guy! you quoted the above now! what is the white mans fault again?! [color=#990000]

delishpot:
My dear people of Africa, I was wondering today, how can we as a continent break free from western destruction? It is clear the western world is destroying Africa. Using our own brothers and sisters to destroy our dear continent. Using our faith, our greed, our anger, our hate and our inability to see life beyound "today and now" to destroy us. Please how do we break free from all this and creat a beautiful green continent called Africa.

this guy! you quoted the above now! what is the white mans fault again?!

tupem:
this guy! you quoted the above now! what is the white mans fault again?! [color=#990000] this guy! you quoted the above now! what is the white mans fault again?!

Ehn, how do we patch the leaking holes na? We agree there are leaks and holes but we need to find solution to those holes fa! How do we push forward the good peace loving people and pluck out the bad eggs? If a man knows that one of his sons is troublesome and spendrift, how does he plan his wealth to keep his crazy child from getting his claws on it? That is what I want us to discus here.

delishpot:
My dear people of Africa, I was wondering today, how can we as a continent break free from western destruction? It is clear the western world is destroying Africa. Using our own brothers and sisters to destroy our dear continent. Using our faith, our greed, our anger, our hate and our inability to see life beyound "today and now" to destroy us. Please how do we break free from all this and creat a beautiful green continent called Africa? Please lets rub minds and see what we can do o.
The news around the world don tire me. Africans are now seen as the pests invading modern worlds. Biko how do we save Africa and save the face of the Black man?

Dont bother on this forum. Start a facebook group. Select people who you think are conscientious prior to my post (because ppl can pretend post this) and invite people who you believe to be 1. African 2. black

There are too many whites on here pretending to be one of us.

The first step is to create new boundaries and tear down the artificial one designed to serve the interest of the imperialists

I would suggest reducing the number of countries in Africa to no more than 3. Southern Africa, Central Africa, and North Africa. Finish. Those 3 can form a confederation down the line. The main benefit of this would be greater centralisation of decision making power, so vital in a resource-rich region like Africa wishing to prevent foreign exploitation and dictate commodity prices. Today we are price takers rather than price givers on the international market because no country is large enough to dictate commodity prices, and can easily be undercut by rival nations if it seeks to demand more for its exports. With greater political unification we can dictate commodity prices, and get a LOT more than we're getting, ending the need for foreign aid etc, and developing our economies in no time. Expect a lot of resistance from the west if we go down this route. We need measures put in place to checkmate their attempts at sabotaging the developments.

ROSSIKE:
I would suggest reducing the number of countries in Africa to no more than 3. Southern Africa, Central Africa, and North Africa. Finish. Those 3 can form a confederation down the line. The main benefit of this would be greater centralisation of decision making power, so vital in a resource-rich region like Africa wishing to prevent foreign exploitation and dictate commodity prices. Today we are price takers rather than price givers on the international market because no country is large enough to dictate commodity prices, and can easily be undercut by rival nations if it seeks to demand more for its exports. With greater political unification we can dictate commodity prices, and get a LOT more than we're getting, ending the need for foreign aid etc, and developing our economies in no time. Expect a lot of resistance from the west if we go down this route. We need measures put in place to checkmate their attempts at sabotaging the developments.

Yevgeny:
The first step is to create new boundaries and tear down the artificial one designed to serve the interest of the imperialists

We could do that but it will take time. I believe many countries may not want that step. Judging by tge way we blast each other based on tribe in naija. One Nigeria hasnt helped us much, can we achieve one Africa?
Maybe if we star gradual education and introduction of the 1 Africa talk to kids we may be able to do that in lets say 10-50 yrs time. But then we have to gather like minded African countries to sit and talk. 1 Africa will not be an easy feat sha. So I do not think it will favour Africa to adopt that style. The language barrier is another thing to worry about. If we all speak same language, it would have been aa very good move.

black247:


Dont bother on this forum. Start a facebook group. Select people who you think are conscientious prior to my post (because ppl can pretend post this) and invite people who you believe to be 1. African 2. black

There are too many whites on here pretending to be one of us.

Good Idea too.

As long as greed, poverty remains in the land then we will always be in the shadows of the western world. The margin is just too wide to fill. We are the architects of our own miseries and the whites just capitalize on our gullible nature to extort and make a ridicle of us. The African leaders have failed us. There are no more the likes of Mandela who stood for value of the African people. All we have now mostly are money-laundering leaders who just can't stop at aything but to keep on embarrassing Africans!

ROSSIKE:
I would suggest reducing the number of countries in Africa to no more than 3. Southern Africa, Central Africa, and North Africa. Finish. Those 3 can form a confederation down the line. The main benefit of this would be greater centralisation of decision making power, so vital in a resource-rich region like Africa wishing to prevent foreign exploitation and dictate commodity prices. Today we are price takers rather than price givers on the international market because no country is large enough to dictate commodity prices, and can easily be undercut by rival nations if it seeks to demand more for its exports. With greater political unification we can dictate commodity prices, and get a LOT more than we're getting, ending the need for foreign aid etc, and developing our economies in no time. Expect a lot of resistance from the west if we go down this route. We need measures put in place to checkmate their attempts at sabotaging the developments.

Problematic in both short and long terms.
A people already divided across ethnic and religious lines cannot possibly see eye to in high level political theatres.
Tribal sensibilities will always overrule justice,equity and common sense.
A better opinion would be to wean the minds of africans off imported stuff like the Abrahamic fairy tales from both sides and Western style government configurations that make no sense for Africans. Democracy, marxism, socialism...all the alphabet gang of govt isms need to be adapted for african needs and circumstances. Same goes for all economic and financial theories being used to run african economies.

As it is...Africans generally appear to lack advanced intellectual capacity. They seem to abhor the usage of their thinking faculties. This effectively guarantees the West will always formulate policies that dictate the current and future direction of african countries. If they push gay marriage...y'all have to fall in line or else...
If they come up with austerity, global warming, monsanto gmo seeds, virtual currency, women bishops and all that...africans have to lap it up.

Mental liberation is first. They're neither gods nor demi gods. African stands to play a dominant role in the global economy if her leaders can think. The west is already mired in debts that only another world war can write off.
Africa is relatively debt free and can fund her development with swap agreements and trade by barter deals with BRICS to a large extent.

Can africa produce leaders up to the task?

[quote author=PabloAfricanus post=34270156]
Problematic in both short and long terms.
A people already divided across ethnic and religious lines cannot possibly see eye to in high level political theatres.
Tribal sensibilities will always overrule justice,equity and common sense.
A better opinion would be to wean the minds of africans off imported stuff like the Abrahamic fairy tales from both sides and Western style government configurations that make no sense for Africans. Democracy, marxism, socialism...all the alphabet gang of govt isms need to be adapted for african needs and circumstances. Same goes for all economic and financial theories being used to run african economies.
As it is...Africans generally appear to lack advanced intellectual capacity. They seem to abhor the usage of their thinking faculties. This effectively guarantees the West will always formulate policies that dictate the current and future direction of african countries. If they push gay marriage...y'all have to fall in line or else...
If they come up with austerity, global warming, monsanto gmo seeds, virtual currency, women bishops and all that...africans have to lap it up.
Mental liberation is first. They're neither gods nor demi gods. African stands to play a dominant role in the global economy if her leaders can think. The west is already mired in debts that only another world war can write off.
Africa is relatively debt free and can fund her development with swap agreements and trade by barter deals with BRICS to a large extent.
Can africa produce leaders up to the

PabloAfricanus:


Problematic in both short and long terms.
A people already divided across ethnic and religious lines cannot possibly see eye to in high level political theatres.
Tribal sensibilities will always overrule justice,equity and common sense.

I just don't buy this argument. China and India have numerous ethnicities and religions. That didn't stop them from developing into powerful federations with a strong centre. In fact one of the manifesto objectives of the African Union is eventual political unification. A powerful center with a proper military, allied to a Pan-African social engineering program will quickly put an end to ethnic and religious - based politics.

Some one said " if you want to talk about Africa star with the failure of the African state not the invation of the colonial masters"

ROSSIKE:

I just don't buy this argument. China and India have numerous ethnicities and religions. That didn't stop them from developing into powerful federations with a strong centre. In fact one of the manifesto objectives of the African Union is eventual political unification. A powerful center with a proper military, allied to a Pan-African social engineering program will quickly put an end to ethnic and religious - based politics.

Your assumption is that the Indian or Chinese situation applies to Africa.
China is the oldest civilization/empire known to recent history...with a long history of culture, imperial bureaucracy and
advanced political organization.
India is not just an old landmass of religion and culture but of equally advanced civilizations accomplished
in both science and international politics.
Africa (minus the Northern Berbers and Arabs) do not have a history of advanced political systems that can
handle the sort of arrangement you are proposing.
Yeah I know about the Songhai,Mali, Fulani, Benin and co empires...but those did not translate into broad
political awareness for Africans in general. Heck they all crumbled like cards in the face of European threats.
Strong states negotiate with stronger states to either become allies or vassals...not colonies.
Ethiopia is the only advanced political civilization in Africa...and their history of not being colonized bears that out.
The rest are glorified chiefdoms lording over an ignorant populace using fear and violence.
Infact your proposed union will be seen as a direct threat to Western hegemony.
Because if the union decides to adopt a single currency for both local and international trade,
the cancerous grip of IMF and the World Bank would be ineffective in continuing the looting of Africa.
You will just be inviting another round of colonization and this time it might be bloodier.

You need to have an good ideological foundation for running things at that level.
Such ideologies need to resonate with the consciousness of the people.
It must be home grown as much as possible...not this scenario where we have a vast majority of both
educated and uneducated who cant even define what a parliamentary system of government is.
Not this scenario where the bulk of the public turns to an imported sky daddy and his earthly tax collectors
for succor for problems they can solve themselves.
We here in Nigeria cant even refine our own crude. 50 years and counting of independence and Nigeria can not
still afford ANY city 24 hours electricity.
The entire economy runs on GENERATORS!

The minds of the majority of Africans are not enlightened enough to look beyond ethnicity, religion and work
on pure principles.
Until the nature of a pig is changed, it will allows wallow in the dirt. It cant help it.
Embedded selfishness, senseless greed, predilection to corruption and a hatred of knowledge will stand in the way
of any forward development.
I think I can now appreciate why societies such as the Freemasons exist.
You cannot entrust leadership and sensitive positions to uninformed people.
I think a good starting point will be to encourage something like a leadership institute or society where selected youths
of all ethnicities can be taught leadership, command and the philosophy of governance.

In closing, the Indians and Chinese can function at that level because the culture and consciousness is there.
The PRC leaders could have chosen to loot the massive billions of forex flowing into China, but they have been wise enough
to channel it to local development. The Chinese were able to collaborate with the West to attract foreign investment while
retaining her essential sovereignty and relative autonomy.
They have saved and sacrificed for generations unborn.
It takes discipline and a certain level of spiritual awareness to make such decisions and stand by them.
Even more important is the ability to formulate policies that will yield positive results for the long term.
Our so-called leaders lack vision and intelligence.
All these negatives need to be corrected and replaced with positives.
Anything else will be treating the effects and not the causes of disease.

PabloAfricanus:


Your assumption is that the Indian or Chinese situation applies to Africa.
China is the oldest civilization/empire known to recent history...with a long history of culture, imperial bureaucracy and
advanced political organization.
India is not just an old landmass of religion and culture but of equally advanced civilizations accomplished
in both science and international politics.
Africa (minus the Northern Berbers and Arabs) do not have a history of advanced political systems that can
handle the sort of arrangement you are proposing.

Absolute GARBAGE based on baseless racist insinuations and assumptions. Africa is older than China and India COMBINED, and has been home to countless civilizations of varying degrees of advancement, from at least 200,000 BC. If there is anywhere on earth that is amenable to ANY form of political organization that its people decide upon, it is Africa.

Yeah I know about the Songhai,Mali, Fulani, Benin and co empires...but those did not translate into broad
political awareness for Africans in general. Heck they all crumbled like cards in the face of European threats.
Strong states negotiate with stronger states to either become allies or vassals...not colonies.

But those circumstances are the very impetus of change within those African territories. The call for African unification is precisely in response to the weaknesses of the old kingdoms. So it makes no point reminding us of the vulnerabilities of the old empires. That is what we are looking to recitify.

Ethiopia is the only advanced political civilization in Africa...and their history of not being colonized bears that out.
The rest are glorified chiefdoms lording over an ignorant populace using fear and violence.

Again, more wild categorisations based on Eurocentric prejudice. What is a 'chiefdom'? You mean those territories known commonly as kingdoms which might even be so large as to be termed empires? The great Benin empire was not a ''chiefdom''. It was an empire that was so brilliantly organized and stable that it constructed the world's largest earthworks!


Excerpts:

The Walls of Benin were a combination of ramparts and moats, called Iya in the local language, used as a defense of the historical Benin City, formerly of the now defunct Kingdom of Benin and now the capital of the present-day Edo State of Nigeria. It was considered the largest man-made structure lengthwise and was hailed as the largest earthworks in the world... It enclosed 6,500 km² of community lands. Its length was over 16,000 km of earth boundaries. It was estimated that earliest construction began in 800 AD and continued into the mid-1400s.


The walls are built of a ditch and dike structure; the ditch dug to form an inner moat with the excavated earth used to form the exterior rampart.

The Benin Walls were ravaged by the (''civilized'' - cough cough) British in 1897 during what has come to be called the Punitive expedition....

The Walls of Benin City was the world's largest man-made earth structure. Fred Pearce wrote in New Scientist:

"They extend for some 16,000 kilometres in all, in a mosaic of more than 500 interconnected settlement boundaries. They cover 6,500 square kilometres and were all dug by the Edo people. In all, they are four times longer than the Great Wall of China, and consumed a hundred times more material than the Great Pyramid of Cheops. They took an estimated 150 million hours of digging to construct, and are perhaps the largest single archaeological phenomenon on the planet.''


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Benin


That is BIG STATE. That is BIG BUREAUCRACY. The Benin example alone shows that Africans are capable of thinking and planning big.

Infact your proposed union will be seen as a direct threat to Western hegemony.
Because if the union decides to adopt a single currency for both local and international trade,
the cancerous grip of IMF and the World Bank would be ineffective in continuing the looting of Africa.
You will just be inviting another round of colonization and this time it might be bloodier.

I doubt Africans will succumb to the lies of colonialists in this day and age. Colonialism will not happen in Africa ever again, rest assured of that.

You need to have an good ideological foundation for running things at that level.
Such ideologies need to resonate with the consciousness of the people.
It must be home grown as much as possible...not this scenario where we have a vast majority of both
educated and uneducated who cant even define what a parliamentary system of government is.
Not this scenario where the bulk of the public turns to an imported sky daddy and his earthly tax collectors
for succor for problems they can solve themselves.
We here in Nigeria cant even refine our own crude. 50 years and counting of independence and Nigeria can not
still afford ANY city 24 hours electricity.
The entire economy runs on GENERATORS!

The minds of the majority of Africans are not enlightened enough to look beyond ethnicity, religion and work
on pure principles.
Until the nature of a pig is changed, it will allows wallow in the dirt. It cant help it.
Embedded selfishness, senseless greed, predilection to corruption and a hatred of knowledge will stand in the way
of any forward development.
I think I can now appreciate why societies such as the Freemasons exist.
You cannot entrust leadership and sensitive positions to uninformed people.

Again, these things you mention are symptoms and effects of powerlessness which African unification is meant to address. You cannot use them to justify remaining powerless.

I think a good starting point will be to encourage something like a leadership institute or society where selected youths
of all ethnicities can be taught leadership, command and the philosophy of governance.

I support this, certainly.

In closing, the Indians and Chinese can function at that level because the culture and consciousness is there.
The PRC leaders could have chosen to loot the massive billions of forex flowing into China, but they have been wise enough
to channel it to local development. The Chinese were able to collaborate with the West to attract foreign investment while
retaining her essential sovereignty and relative autonomy.
They have saved and sacrificed for generations unborn.
It takes discipline and a certain level of spiritual awareness to make such decisions and stand by them.
Even more important is the ability to formulate policies that will yield positive results for the long term.
Our so-called leaders lack vision and intelligence.
All these negatives need to be corrected and replaced with positives.
Anything else will be treating the effects and not the causes of disease.

Again, you put the cart before the horse, using African weaknesses to justify their remaining weak. There was a time China wallowed in massive corruption, rampant crime and ethnic conflict, are you aware of that? It then took decisive action by a Mandarin clique to unify the land and establish Confucianist principles of thrift and sacrifice across the board via social engineering, which resulted in the broadly united, ethically enlightened, philosophically homogenous Chinese population we have today. Nothing stops the same thing from happening in Africa.

Hahahha
Never knew you are an Afrocentric warrior!
Went through your posts on other threads...interesting.
While I could challenge you directly on some of your Afrocentric ideas...I invite you to look at things from
a more realistic perspective.

ROSSIKE:

Absolute GARBAGE based on baseless racist insinuations and assumptions. Africa is older than China and India COMBINED, and has been home to countless civilizations of varying degrees of advancement, from at least 200,000 BC. If there is anywhere on earth that is amenable to ANY form of political organization that its people decide upon, it is Africa.

Hahahha
When you say "Africa"...do you mean Egypt or Ethiopia or Buganda/Ganda or Bini or Yoruba or Kwararafa or Songhai or Mali?
Or do you mean Ashanti or Igbo or Fulani?
Or maybe you mean Zulu or Zimbabwe? Do you mean sub-Saharan Africa or Northern Africa?
Africa is a mass of DIFFERENT and diverse ethnicities who before the Europeans came largely were ignorant of one another's existence.
Challenge to ya...give me a reference or oral history showing the Binis knew about the Zulus or that the Nupes knew about the Ethiopians.
Again, Africa is not one kingdom or empire...but different dark skinned peoples of diverse ethnicities and different migration patterns.
There are linkages and commonalities of language, customs, migratory origins...shared histories between the different peoples ofcourse.
So you cannot compare Africa to the Qing,Ming or Han empires! There was far more unification in those realms than in Africa.
In India, the unifying factor among the different kingdoms was the Dravidian origins, the Vedas, the Hindu cosmology among others.
The worship of Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna and Hindu traditions were consistent in mythologies and rites from Kerala to Tamil to the Northern kingdoms.
That scenario does not apply in Africa! The Ibibio man has no knowledge of the Orisha pantheons of the Yorubas.
The Kanem-Borno would find the chi of the Igbo man fabulous.
The Boro of the old Hausas is another African story to the Zulus of today.
That the Ethiopians had an established liturgical rites and organized orthodox religion will be news to a lot of Africans today.
What was common was ancestor worship under different traditions and rites.
So Africa was and is still not a unified people of common origins. True we are dark skinned peoples, but we inhabit
different cultural and political spaces.
To further elaborate, not all African peoples had monarchies. Not all African peoples had empires.
Not all African ethnic groups had nation states...there were actually few nation states in sub saharan Africa.
It was only after the Europeans had done their thing that Africans even had a common language to communicate with each other.
French and English are the lingua franca of international Africa.
I challenge you to go to Lome or Kinshasa and speak with the locals in your native tongue.
So, you have to clarify what you mean by "amenable to ANY form of political organization"...as the only concepts of political
organization known to all Africans are the Western gang of isms and democracies. They are not the product of African thought...and are
clearly not working out too well for Africans. Hence my insistence we adapt Western political ideologies for our own use.

ROSSIKE:

But those circumstances are the very impetus of change within those African territories. The call for African unification is precisely in response to the weaknesses of the old kingdoms. So it makes no point reminding us of the vulnerabilities of the old empires. That is what we are looking to recitify.

I think you are being rather over-optimistic. The Fulanis of today given a chance would rather align with Saudi Arabia and link up all the Emirates usurped by Fulanis to the Arabian Union...than work for a union with "unbelievers" who do not hold dear Muhammad and his sky daddy in esteem.
I think African Christians would rather not have Islamists take leading roles in a new African Union of Nations.
The religious divides will be open hedges for manipulation from the sky daddy vendors across the Atlantic.
Africans need to be conscious of and clearly understand the vulnerabilities of the old ways.
This was what caused a mere "trading company" to take West Africa with a handful of men and subjugate her feared kings and chiefs.

ROSSIKE:

Again, more wild categorisations based on Eurocentric prejudice. What is a 'chiefdom'? You mean those territories known commonly as kingdoms which might even be so large as to be termed empires? The great Benin empire was not a ''chiefdom''. It was an empire that was so brilliantly organized and stable that it constructed the world's largest earthworks!

That is BIG STATE. That is BIG BUREAUCRACY. The Benin example alone shows that Africans are capable of thinking and planning big.

Hahahaha...its either you are suffering from pangs of inferiority complex or you are trying hard to match up Africa to other civilizations.
True I'm quite familiar with the extent of the old Bini empire, her statehood and diplomats and all that.
You didn't even mention Kwararafa or the Hausa states.
However, the walls of Bini were no deterrent to European colonization. Neither was it a common heritage shared by Bini's neighbours.
It was a Bini thing. To equate that to a sign of "African advancement" is well...not quite scholarly in my opinion.
The Europeans met no wheels, written languages, no state courts with written scrolls or schools with scholars teaching and writing.
The only known African kingdoms/empires with knowledge of reading and writing were the Islamic sultanates and emirates.
Ofcourse I'm excluding Ethiopia and Egypt.
In my opinion...Africans have no point to prove. Africans have been enslaved by both the Arabs and the Whites.
Africans had no European slaves or Arab or Mid-Eastern slaves.
There was nothing for the Europeans to learn when they came to Africa or so it seemed...
They had to teach us their alphabeths, teach us pronounciation, transcribe their sky daddy scriptures into our native tongues, introduce
the concept of formal education to us, introduce the concept of navigation on the seas and oceans to us.
We learnt electricity and modern science from them.
That does not mean Africans were wallowing in darkness and had no native science.
We had native doctors, we were dyeing clothes, had metal works of brass, gold and other metals.
We had calvaries and titled office holders.
But in the whole, the world had left Africa behind. Its humbling...but that is what it is.
Even the Tokugawas had to put aside their samurai culture and shogunates to embrace the superior technology and education of the Westerners.
Ofcourse you are free to enlighten me on your own view.

ROSSIKE:

I doubt Africans will succumb to the lies of colonialists in this day and age. Colonialism will not happen in Africa ever again, rest assured of that.

Well if you are a student of history, you'll discover there are always ways of subterfuge and sabotage employed by colonialists.
The biggest of these fronts is religion...yes the sky daddy mumbo jumbo. While it liberated(I said it) African minds from senseless
superstitions and inhuman practices...it replaced them with an even deadening belief system. The Abrahamic sky daddy stories
are soul deadening and mind numbing subversions of the free human spirit.
The fact is religion is a universal thing and once any unique ethnic group looses touch of their native home grown religions...they are
subservient in spirit to where ever the substitute originated from. Today in Africa, Abraham and his sky daddy blessings are the hope and succor of millions of Africans.
Another is the mental colonization that has already been embedded in our subconscious. Africans of all ethnicities think today in Western terms.
Our thought processes are molded by the think thanks in Europe and America. Our leading men of commerce and industry are either Freemasons,
Shriners, products of Western scholarships in Western institutions teaching Western ideologies and principles.
We are already owned!
As it is...we have nothing original to us in modern terms apart from our so-called "customs and traditions"...which have since been discarded
for the relatively more advanced ways of the westerners.
Again you are free to enlighten me.

ROSSIKE:

Again, these things you mention are symptoms and effects of powerlessness which African unification is meant to address. You cannot use them to justify remaining powerless.

There lies the difference between Africans and say the Chinese! How do you explain Obasanjo spending $16 billion on phantom power generation in 8 years?
Compare that to how much was spent on the Three Gorges Dam.
African minds need a re-orientation. We appear to lack the ability to conceptualize political and economic strategy.
Africans have not demonstrated that they are the intellectual equals of Asians, Europeans or even Arabs.
Its all about bloated egos and general lack of self-consciousness.
We need men of knowledge and intellect to guide us into the next era.

ROSSIKE:

Again, you put the cart before the horse, using African weaknesses to justify their remaining weak. There was a time China wallowed in massive corruption, rampant crime and ethnic conflict, are you aware of that? It then took decisive action by a Mandarin clique to unify the land and establish Confucianist principles of thrift and sacrifice across the board via social engineering which resulted in the broadly united, ethically enlightened, philosophically homogenous Chinese population we have today. Nothing stops the same thing from happening in Africa.

So who are or will be the African mandarins? And which Emperor will appoint them to rule which districts?
Are you an African American? Cos it appears you think Africa is a single country inhabited by a people speaking one language
or mutually intelligible languages.
Will the Sultan of Sokoto and his emirates accept a workable idea pushed by say a Congolese clique...to develop Africa along purely African
ideologies. His allegiance is firstly to Saudi Arabia, second to Fulani hegemony over the Hausa city states they usurped, then to their own pockets.
You could draw more analogies from the above.
The reality on ground needs to be understood before laying a foundation for anything. That was my point.

Education , Innovation and self reliance with people oriented Governance.

It is easier to use an average African man against himself and his people because he is classless with lower IQ ...... the same thing that happened with our fore leaders during the colonists/slavery days is the same thing that is happening now in a neo-colonist era.

An average African leader doesn't believe in empowering, emasculating and emancipation of his people to consolidate power on elites because he believe where forth his people become enlightened, they will revolt against his consolidation on power thus he would rather keep them as scavengers who would always look up to him for survival................. African leaders ain't ready to develop, ain't ready for next world and never ever dream of leading the world nor human race not even humanity ....... thus He never desire developing his people and land so as not to fall off his power grip.

An Average African man doesn't have taste neither does he have seal for progress and beauty, He conceal what makes him a success instead of sharing knowledge to advance knowledge base.


The problem has never been the westerners and I do not blame the westerners for anything, they found a hole full of resources with the people possessing that hole so extremely backward in terms of technical/cultural advancement and knowhow, they decided to keep tapping from the hole forever while ensuring in one way or the other that the people never emancipate. ....... It may not be a desired strategy before humanitarian and religionists but this is highly welcome in business and westerners are BUSINESSMEN NOT RELIGIONISTS.

Worst is, they ain't here doing it, Africans/our leaders are doing it for them and our leaders are so happy doing it because they get rewarded handsomely to the detriment of Mother Africa.

Wow, I am loving what I read here. Its a sign that we can rub minds together and discuss like learned persons. Kudos to all. More contributions needed.

One way is to trade with Africans in the west...you be our eyes in Africa and we bd your eyes here in the US.....do not sell your resources to these crooks in Africa that pay you nothing let them buy through your brother in the west.But that idea make too much sense.....

hey i like what i am seeing here though am late to the party.

pabloafricanus is pointing out the reality of the situation in a land called africa by the whitemen and rossike is living in a world of fantasy of a selective believer.

what the black man need is massive education and enlightenment of our children's mind in the next 100 years to erase the faulty thinking imposed on our fathers by religionist and imperialist.

we should invest massive amount of resources to educate and enlighten the minds of africanuses to become FREE THINKERS. in the next 100 years the blacks everywhere will be able to reason together without selling his brothers/sisters to foreigners.

MENTAL ENLIGHTENMENT is the way forward. in times like this i vividly remember the greatest black man of our time BOB MARLEY's song REDEMPTION SONG. if we start to practice the wordings of that song, in a hundred years time it will be the anthem of the black man.

Op, did Africans tell u they want to break free from e west? If so then why are we Africans eager to travel to e west? Our African leaders and rich businessmen have their bank accounts in the west. Given the chance Africans will denounce their African citizenship for that of the west so op forget abt Africans breaking free from e west. It won't ever happen.

Africans are not ready mentally to break away from the west;an average Africa man is greed and not ready to sacrifice himself for the good of others

maajin007:
Africans are not ready mentally to break away from the west;an average Africa man is greed and not ready to sacrifice himself for the good of others

But if one sacrifices himself when others are not ready to see his sacrifice and pick up the batton he droped, of what use is it then for someone to sacrifice himself?

PabloAfricanus:
Hahahha
Never knew you are an Afrocentric warrior!
Went through your posts on other threads...interesting.
While I could challenge you directly on some of your Afrocentric ideas...I invite you to look at things from
a more realistic perspective.


Hahahha
When you say "Africa"...do you mean Egypt or Ethiopia or Buganda/Ganda or Bini or Yoruba or Kwararafa or Songhai or Mali?
Or do you mean Ashanti or Igbo or Fulani?
Or maybe you mean Zulu or Zimbabwe? Do you mean sub-Saharan Africa or Northern Africa?
Africa is a mass of DIFFERENT and diverse ethnicities who before the Europeans came largely were ignorant of one another's existence.
Challenge to ya...give me a reference or oral history showing the Binis knew about the Zulus or that the Nupes knew about the Ethiopians.

This is ridiculous. There have been numerous examples of, and references to, trade existing among many African ethnicities in the pre-colonial era. Ships sailed from present day Nigeria to as far as South Africa. Seafaring started with AFRICANS, not Europeans. In fact Africans sailed the oceans thousands of years before Europeans did. There are credible reports of ships leaving the western coast of Africa and landing in the Americas long before Columbus was born. The Olmec heads of Mexico clearly indicate West African settlers in the American antiquity. Igbo Ukwu artefacts show high technical sophistication which prove that an industrial revolution, similar to what took place in Europe, was not beyond the Africa of the period - the only impediment being the absence of the political climate which had led to to the revolution in Europe, such climate being the weakening of the monarchies by the new mercantile class expansion.

A report on Igbo-Ukwu

The archaeology of Igbo-Ukwu revealed bronze artifacts dated to the 9th century A.D. which were initially discovered by Isiah Anozie in 1939 while digging a well in his compound in Igbo-Ukwu, an Igbo town in Anambra State, Nigeria. As a result of these finds, three archaeological sites were excavated in 1959 and 1964 by Thurstan Shaw which revealed more than 700 high quality artifacts of copper, bronze and iron, as well as about 165000 glass, carnelian and stone beads, pottery, textiles and ivory. They are the oldest bronze artifacts known in West African and were manufactured centuries before the emergence of other known bronze producing centers such as those of Ife and Benin. The bronzes include numerous ritual vessels, pendants, crowns, breastplates, staff ornaments, swords, and fly-whisk handles.

The Igbo-Ukwu bronzes amazed the world with a very high level of technical and artistic proficiency and sophistication which was at this time distinctly more advanced than bronze casting in Europe. Peter Garlake compares the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes "to the finest jewelry of rococo Europe or of Carl Faberge," and William Buller Fagg states they were created with "a strange rococo almost Faberge type virtuosity." Frank Willett says that the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes portray a standard that is comparable to that established by Benvenuto Cellini five hundred years later in Europe. Denis Williams calls them "an exquisite explosion without antecedent or issue." One of the objects found, a water pot set in a mesh of simulated rope is described by Hugh Honour and John Fleming as

'A virtuoso feat of cire perdue (lost wax) casting. Its elegant design and refined detailing are matched by a level of technical accomplishment that is notably more advanced than European bronze casting of this period'.[2]

The high technical proficiency and lack of known prototypes of the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes led to initial speculation in the academic community that they must have been created after European contact and phantom voyagers were postulated. However research and isotope analysis has established that the source of the metals is of local origin and radio carbon dating has confirmed a 9th-century date, long before the earliest contact with Europe. The Igbo-Ukwu artifacts did away with the hitherto existing colonial era opinions in archeological circles that such magnificent works of art and technical proficiency could only originate in areas with contact to the outside world, or that they could not be crafted in an acephalous or egalitarian society such as that of the Igbo. Some of the glass and carnelian beads have been found to be produced in Old Cairo at the workshops of Fustat thus establishing that trade contacts did exist between Igbo-Ukwu and ancient Egypt. Archaeological sites containing iron smelting furnaces and slag have been excavated dating to 2000BC in Lejja and 750BC in Opi both in Nsukka region about 100 Kilometers east of Igbo-Ukwu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Igbo-Ukwu

Smelting furnaces? Slag? Technical sophistication surpassing Europe? Trading with ancient Egypt? These are not signs of a backward people such as you are attempting to portray. These are signs of a medieval people on the verge of an industrial revolution.

Again, Africa is not one kingdom or empire...but different dark skinned peoples of diverse ethnicities and different migration patterns.
There are linkages and commonalities of language, customs, migratory origins...shared histories between the different peoples ofcourse.
So you cannot compare Africa to the Qing,Ming or Han empires! There was far more unification in those realms than in Africa.
In India, the unifying factor among the different kingdoms was the Dravidian origins, the Vedas, the Hindu cosmology among others.
The worship of Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna and Hindu traditions were consistent in mythologies and rites from Kerala to Tamil to the Northern kingdoms.
That scenario does not apply in Africa! The Ibibio man has no knowledge of the Orisha pantheons of the Yorubas.
The Kanem-Borno would find the chi of the Igbo man fabulous.
The Boro of the old Hausas is another African story to the Zulus of today.

China was not always an empire, and neither was India. I think you grossly overstress the 'differences' in Africa, and totally ignore the unifying features. There is a trail of similarity that runs across African cultures, which can be brought to bear in any unification drive. An Ibibio man may not know Ifa of the Yorubas, but he would relate to his elders, wife, community, and children pretty much the same way the Yoruba man does.

I think you are being rather over-optimistic. The Fulanis of today given a chance would rather align with Saudi Arabia and link up all the Emirates usurped by Fulanis to the Arabian Union...than work for a union with "unbelievers" who do not hold dear Muhammad and his sky daddy in esteem.
I think African Christians would rather not have Islamists take leading roles in a new African Union of Nations.
The religious divides will be open hedges for manipulation from the sky daddy vendors across the Atlantic.
Africans need to be conscious of and clearly understand the vulnerabilities of the old ways.
This was what caused a mere "trading company" to take West Africa with a handful of men and subjugate her feared kings and chiefs.

Undue fear mongering. The new African constitution will have clear rules on equal representation of all groups, religions and ethnicities at central govt level. The political structure will not be dependent for success on parochial dislike for a particular group or religion emanating from some group or the other.

Hahahaha...its either you are suffering from pangs of inferiority complex or you are trying hard to match up Africa to other civilizations.
True I'm quite familiar with the extent of the old Bini empire, her statehood and diplomats and all that.
You didn't even mention Kwararafa or the Hausa states.
However, the walls of Bini were no deterrent to European colonization. Neither was it a common heritage shared by Bini's neighbours. It was a Bini thing. To equate that to a sign of "African advancement" is well...not quite scholarly in my opinion.

Actually, there were other, smaller earthworks built in other cities of the Benin empire. In addition we have the massive Eredo earthworks in Ijebu Ode, said to be over a thousand years old. So you're quite wrong that such large scale construction was not ''a common heritage shared by Benin's neighbours''.

The Europeans met no wheels, written languages, no state courts with written scrolls or schools with scholars teaching and writing.

Considering the destruction and looting they left behind, I think it's best you allow the Europeans to speak for themselves regarding ''what they met''.

The only known African kingdoms/empires with knowledge of reading and writing were the Islamic sultanates and emirates.
Of course I'm excluding Ethiopia and Egypt.

That's a ludicrous claim. Nsibidi was widely used in southern Nigeria and Cameroun prior to the arrival of Europeans.

https://www.nairaland.com/2291898/igbo-ideograms-grave-stones-virginia

There lies the difference between Africans and say the Chinese! How do you explain Obasanjo spending $16 billion on phantom power generation in 8 years?
Compare that to how much was spent on the Three Gorges Dam.
African minds need a re-orientation. We appear to lack the ability to conceptualize political and economic strategy.

Africans have not demonstrated that they are the intellectual equals of Asians, Europeans or even Arabs.
Its all about bloated egos and general lack of self-consciousness.
We need men of knowledge and intellect to guide us into the next era.

I think what we need is an African 'Illuminati' - a select group of people - necessarily secretive - who plan the continent's direction over say, a renewable 500 year period, and have influence over the African ruling class, in pushing forward their agenda. This is essentially what the west did to attain their dominance. It had nothing to do with the average westerner being smarter than an African.

Rossikk:


This is ridiculous. There have been numerous examples of, and references to, trade existing among many African ethnicities in the pre-colonial era. Ships sailed from present day Nigeria to as far as South Africa. Seafaring started with AFRICANS, not Europeans. In fact Africans sailed the oceans thousands of years before Europeans did. There are credible reports of ships leaving the western coast of Africa and landing in the Americas long before Columbus was born. The Olmec heads of Mexico clearly indicate West African settlers in the American antiquity. Igbo Ukwu artefacts show high technical sophistication which prove that an industrial revolution, similar to what took place in Europe, was not beyond the Africa of the period - the only impediment being the absence of the political climate which had led to to the revolution in Europe, such climate being the weakening of the monarchies by the new mercantile class expansion.

A report on Igbo-Ukwu

The archaeology of Igbo-Ukwu revealed bronze artifacts dated to the 9th century A.D. which were initially discovered by Isiah Anozie in 1939 while digging a well in his compound in Igbo-Ukwu, an Igbo town in Anambra State, Nigeria. As a result of these finds, three archaeological sites were excavated in 1959 and 1964 by Thurstan Shaw which revealed more than 700 high quality artifacts of copper, bronze and iron, as well as about 165000 glass, carnelian and stone beads, pottery, textiles and ivory. They are the oldest bronze artifacts known in West African and were manufactured centuries before the emergence of other known bronze producing centers such as those of Ife and Benin. The bronzes include numerous ritual vessels, pendants, crowns, breastplates, staff ornaments, swords, and fly-whisk handles.

The Igbo-Ukwu bronzes amazed the world with a very high level of technical and artistic proficiency and sophistication which was at this time distinctly more advanced than bronze casting in Europe. Peter Garlake compares the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes "to the finest jewelry of rococo Europe or of Carl Faberge," and William Buller Fagg states they were created with "a strange rococo almost Faberge type virtuosity." Frank Willett says that the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes portray a standard that is comparable to that established by Benvenuto Cellini five hundred years later in Europe. Denis Williams calls them "an exquisite explosion without antecedent or issue." One of the objects found, a water pot set in a mesh of simulated rope is described by Hugh Honour and John Fleming as

'A virtuoso feat of cire perdue (lost wax) casting. Its elegant design and refined detailing are matched by a level of technical accomplishment that is notably more advanced than European bronze casting of this period'.[2]

The high technical proficiency and lack of known prototypes of the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes led to initial speculation in the academic community that they must have been created after European contact and phantom voyagers were postulated. However research and isotope analysis has established that the source of the metals is of local origin and radio carbon dating has confirmed a 9th-century date, long before the earliest contact with Europe. The Igbo-Ukwu artifacts did away with the hitherto existing colonial era opinions in archeological circles that such magnificent works of art and technical proficiency could only originate in areas with contact to the outside world, or that they could not be crafted in an acephalous or egalitarian society such as that of the Igbo. Some of the glass and carnelian beads have been found to be produced in Old Cairo at the workshops of Fustat thus establishing that trade contacts did exist between Igbo-Ukwu and ancient Egypt. Archaeological sites containing iron smelting furnaces and slag have been excavated dating to 2000BC in Lejja and 750BC in Opi both in Nsukka region about 100 Kilometers east of Igbo-Ukwu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Igbo-Ukwu

Smelting furnaces? Slag? Technical sophistication surpassing Europe? Trading with ancient Egypt? These are not signs of a backward people such as you are attempting to portray. These are signs of a medieval people on the verge of an industrial revolution.

China was not always an empire, and neither was India. I think you grossly overstress the 'differences' in Africa, and totally ignore the unifying features. There is a trail of similarity that runs across African cultures, which can be brought to bear in any unification drive. An Ibibio man may not know Ifa of the Yorubas, but he would relate to his elders, wife, community, and children pretty much the same way the Yoruba man does.

LOL
Dude I know you are smarter than this!
You see, a fact Afro-centrists always seem to silently overlook is that the bulk of their knowledge of world history
come from the very peoples they are trying to measure up to.
I challenge you to name your ethnic group in Nigeria and provide for me the following:

1) The oral history of your people about Egypt [size=16pt]before[/size] the Europeans came to the shores of West Africa.
To help you with that before you go quoting "numerous examples" and "references" done by Europeans or Africans who were taught history by Europeans...the Japanese can give you documented and oral history of Japan before Francis Xavier or Perry broke into Tokugawa Japan. Also, the Ethiopians can give you oral histories going thousands of years back of their dealings with the Romans and Greeks.
So give me the documented and verifiable oral history of your people showing they even knew Egypt existed or knew anything about Egypt.
Mind you, you must not quote any work done by any European.

2) What is the oral history of your people about these historical personalities...Alexander the Great,Isis, Horus, Osiris, Genghis Khan, any of the Roman Caesars, Shaka the Zulu, Akhenaten, Rameses II the Great, Thutmose III, Hatshepsut, Askia the Great, King Mansa Musa I,Cyrus the Great, any of the Israelite kings, Napolean I. Mind you do not quote any European or any work published by an African before 1900.
Let me learn from you just how advanced this your "parallel universe" African peoples are. Make me swallow my words that Africans have not shown much intellectual prowess historically.

3) You mentioned Nsibidi...Ok lets flesh it out. Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi extant anywhere in your area or environs that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates.
Also do not quote any European.

Rossikk:


Undue fear mongering. The new African constitution will have clear rules on equal representation of all groups, religions and ethnicities at central govt level. The political structure will not be dependent for success on parochial dislike for a particular group or religion emanating from some group or the other.

Apparently your reasoning is clouded by the deep inferiority complex you are trying to wash off by claiming fantasy as reality...Let me help you out.
The Japanese borrowed a lot from Ming China and other dynasties, including writing systems and Buddhism, China in turn borrowed Buddhism from India. Envoys from Japan regularly paid visits to the Emperor's palace in China. Point is there is documented evidence of cultural, military and political exchange between all the known civilized peoples in ancient and contemporary history.
What political exchange existed between the different tribes and ethnic groups in Africa before the Europeans came?
I know about the Hausa/Fulani, I know about the expansionist wars of the Bini empire, the Kwararafa wars, the Oyo empire and the Dahomeys.
Was there a common and organized political structure that was established enough to glue all these various people together?
The Hausa/Fulani and Kanem-Borno history was a history of Islam...converts of Arabian sky daddy vendors slaughtering their fellow black africans who refuse to confess that Muhammad and his sky daddy were the best thing since pounded yam. It was not an AFRICAN thing.
Till today, Yoruba historians are so ridden with the same inferiority complex you are exhibiting that they almost all unanimously claim Oduduwa
came from Mecca. Though if you ask them to give you an oral history of Mecca or the Arabian world before the whities came they cant.
The Igbos on the other hand have taken the game to the next level, some claim to be Hebrews from the tribe of Gad/Benjamin, ask them to give you any oral history of Jerusalem,Abraham, Jacob or any of the Isrealite kings they cant.
My point is...whatever political systems that were AFRICAN and found in AFRICAN societies were in almost all cases local to the affected peoples.
The Oyo Mesi of the Oyo empire was largely unknown to the peoples east of Akure. The courts of Kano, Kanem Borno and Sokoto were unknown to most of the people below the rivers Benue and Niger areas.
A mere 7 years after independence and a whole new country of united Africans, sharing common values and histories (according to you) erupted in civil war. Ditto other European created artificial countries.
You can talk about "government", "politics" and "constitution" today because the Europeans taught you those values. The bulk of that knowledge was given to you by those white foreigners. You and your fathers were taught international diplomacy and politics by your colonial masters.
If you can accept the above...then we have a starting point to discuss the way forward.
Else you can keep wallowing in your Afrocentric fantasies...no offense meant.

Rossikk:

Actually, there were other, smaller earthworks built in other cities of the Benin empire. In addition we have the massive Eredo earthworks in Ijebu Ode, said to be over a thousand years old. So you're quite wrong that such large scale construction was not ''a common heritage shared by Benin's neighbours''.

No point made...so I'll just ignore this part.

Rossikk:

Considering the destruction and looting they left behind, I think it's best you allow the Europeans to speak for themselves regarding ''what they met''.

LOL...I bet you if the Europeans had not documented even the destruction and slave trade people like you would have never known such things took place. If the Europeans had not drawn portraits and taken pictures of the peoples they met in Africa...you would still be ignorant of your own history. Let's leave it at that.

Rossikk:

That's a ludicrous claim. Nsibidi was widely used in southern Nigeria and Cameroun prior to the arrival of Europeans.
https://www.nairaland.com/2291898/igbo-ideograms-grave-stones-virginia

Dude answer the first questions I posed up there...and while you are at it...do a thread in Nsibidi for us.
Invite one or two of your Afrocentric friends to write in Nsibidi here...discuss any topic. Lets see how precious and advanced this Nsibidi writing is.
Let me add that I will disregard any comment you make on this if you do not provide me with a thread started by you or anyone you know in Nsibidi.

Rossikk:

I think what we need is an African 'Illuminati' - a select group of people - necessarily secretive - who plan the continent's direction over say, a renewable 500 year period, and have influence over the African ruling class, in pushing forward their agenda. This is essentially what the west did to attain their dominance. It had nothing to do with the average westerner being smarter than an African.

We do not need an African Illuminati per se...what we need is a love of beauty, knowledge, order and technology.
Based on that foundation, we can then borrow from each other without fear, bigotry and ignorance getting in the way.
The so called advanced culture of the West, Far East and Middle East was accomplished by single men who built a followership over time.
One man came up with some grandiose concept, idea or technology...that offered value to the people...and that was it.
Nimrod came up with the the first documented organized military. He also invented the cult of the Earth Mother that has been traced to almost every organized religion in ancient and contemporary history.
Horus built a followership in Egypt after overcoming his uncle Set. His dynasty invented the religious mythologies and religious societies that has been copied by the Freemasons and likes.
Anaximander, Anaximenes,Amenhotep, Aeschylus,Archimedes,Aristophanes,Galileo, Robert Hooke,Kepler,Plato,Aristotle,Huang Di,Zhu Ge Liang,
Yi Xing,Cai Lun, Zhang Heng...so many I can not name here.
Someone invented the compass,astrolabe,levers,wheels,calendar...too many universally useful inventions.
These were the products of men of prose, literature, history, mathematics, chemistry,physics, medicine, astronomy, military strategy and other sciences and arts.
We need men who have a profound love of knowledge and beauty. Who are willing to build an enabling environment to allow such values to thrive in their life time and for posterity.
No Illuminati in the control of greedy, superstitious, selfish, kleptomaniac, envious, dull and unintelligent Africans will make that happen.
It starts with you...one man...facing the reality of what is.

My opinions.

PabloAfricanus:


LOL
Dude I know you are smarter than this!
You see, a fact Afro-centrists always seem to silently overlook is that the bulk of their knowledge of world history
come from the very peoples they are trying to measure up to.

You write so much RUBBISH. First you completely IGNORED all of what I wrote in response to your post - most of which were clear rebuttals of your ''Africans are inferior and achieved nothing'' claims. I showed VERY CLEARLY with links that your stance was a monumental lie and fraud. Then you come up with the rubbish about ''where the information came from'', as if that somehow makes it automatically false.

What the hell does it matter if ''the bulk'' of information we get emanates from ''the very peoples we are trying to measure up to'''? A very condescending remark if I may add? Why would the bulk of information not come from Europeans? Did they not spend the last 500 or 600 years trashing and looting Africa and its cultures? Colonising the entire continent? Destroying countless records and looting countless works? The sad truth is that this continent was rap.ed for centuries. Even in Mali, Sudan, northern Nigeria etc we have hundreds of thousands of precolonial manuscripts showing black African writing and knowledge of a variety of subjects, from mathematics to philosophy and astronomy. Many of these manuscripts are buried underground, following attempts by Africans to hide them from foreign invaders of yore. Thousands have been retrieved. Of course you will disregard these as ''foreign influenced'' because much of the writing is in Arabic. But you are very happy to credit the Chinese with borrowing from India, and Japan, with borrowing from China etc etc...all part of humanity's drive to success etc etc. To you, such interaction does not discredit those people or undermine their worth/achievements. But Africa? Oh this and that must be fully indigenous to Africa otherwise it is not an African achievement. It is you who has a deep inferiority complex, and you seriously need to check it.

I challenge you to name your ethnic group in Nigeria and provide for me the following:

1) The oral history of your people about Egypt [size=16pt]before[/size] the Europeans came to the shores of West Africa.
To help you with that before you go quoting "numerous examples" and "references" done by Europeans or Africans who were taught history by Europeans...the Japanese can give you documented and oral history of Japan before Francis Xavier or Perry broke into Tokugawa Japan. Also, the Ethiopians can give you oral histories going thousands of years back of their dealings with the Romans and Greeks.
So give me the documented and verifiable oral history of your people showing they even knew Egypt existed or knew anything about Egypt.
Mind you, you must not quote any work done by any European.

Olumide Lucas who wrote ''The Religion of the Yorubas'' does a splendid job of showing Yoruba connections to ancient Egypt. Cheikh Anta Diop was one of Africa's foremost historians who clearly showed that West Africans had undeniable ties to ancient Egypt. He defended his thesis before his peers at UNESCO!

Reverend Samuel Johnson, who wrote ''the History of the Yorubas'' at the turn of the last century, in which he outlined Yoruba links to ancient Egypt, relied, by his words on major Yoruba oral historians.

''[Johnson] relied on Yoruba’s oral history as his main source of information concerning Yoruba origins; some of his sources are renowned Yoruba oral historians like Josiah Oni, Venerable Lagunju (the Timi of Ede) and many more (Johnson 1921:viii).2''

http://www.ve.org.za/index.php/VE/article/viewFile/832/2135


More:

''In the first chapter, we talked about the aboriginal nature of the Yoruban peoples. In this chapter, we shall talk of a possible migration from ancient Egypt. Many traditions point to a fact that an alien group (Egyptians) immigrated to Yoruba land and mixed with the original population.

Many oral traditions are replete with these stories. The Awujale of Ijebu land has shown that the Ijebus are descended from ancient Nubia (a colony of Egypt). He was able to use the evidence of language, body, scarification, coronation rituals that are similar to Nubians’ etc, to show that the Ijebus are descendants of the Nubians. What the present Awujale claimed for the Ijebus, can be authenticated all over Yoruba land. The Awujale even mentioned (2004) that the Itsekiri (an eastern Yoruba dialect) are speaking the original Ijebu language.

Since the Nubians were descended or colonized by the Egyptians, the Ijebu, and by extension, all Yoruba customs, derived from the Egyptian. Many traditional Yorubas have always claimed Egypt as their place of original abode, and that their monarchical tradition derives from the Egyptians’. Apostle Atigbiofor Atsuliaghan, a high priest of Umale-Okun, and a direct descendant of Orunmila, claimed that the Yorubas left Egypt as a result of a big war that engulfed the whole of Egypt. He said the Egyptian remnants settled in various places, two important places being Ode Itsekiri and Ile-Ife.Chief O.N Rewane says “Oral tradition has it also that when the Yorubas came from South of Egypt they did not go straight to where they now occupy. They settled at Illushi, some at Asaba area – Ebu, Olukumi Ukwunzu while some settled at Ode-Itsekiri,.” (O.N. Rewane Royalty Magazine A PICTORIAL SOUVENIR OF THE BURIAL AND CORONATION OF OLU OF WARRI, WARRI 1987)

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2139

2) What is the oral history of your people about these historical personalities...Alexander the Great,Isis, Horus, Osiris, Genghis Khan, any of the Roman Caesars, Shaka the Zulu, Akhenaten, Rameses II the Great, Thutmose III, Hatshepsut, Askia the Great, King Mansa Musa I,Cyrus the Great, any of the Israelite kings, Napolean I. Mind you do not quote any European or any work published by an African before 1900.
Let me learn from you just how advanced this your "parallel universe" African peoples are. Make me swallow my words that Africans have not shown much intellectual prowess historically.

Again, arrant Eurocentric nonsense. What is EUROPE'S ''oral history'' or ''written history'' regarding Oduduwa, Amadioha, Sungbo's Eredo, Oba Ewuare and Ibinukpabi? Or Ile-Ife? An African must know about Alexander the Destroyer (whom you call ''the great''), and Caesar, but a European does not need to know about Ibinukpabi? Or the Orisha pantheon? Again, your questions display like nothing else can, your deep Eurocentric bias which even you are unaware of, being so enmeshed in it. No wonder you think you need to ''meet up'' to them as you put it. Real Africans do not need to ''meet up'' to anyone. We know we gave the world CIVILIZATION. Interestingly, you are so disconnected from your African past that you don't realise that several of the names you mentioned are ancient Africans and African deities commemorated in deed and in faith till this day in West Africa. Horus (Orisha), Isis (numerous manifestations of this cult throughout Nigeria, down to the use of the name) to name a few. The so-called 'Israelite kings' were really just weak local chiefs in their region, with no measurable impact beyond biblical fabrications and exaggerations.

Mansa Musa... if there was trade with the south (which there was), then the south would have known about Mansa Musa and Askia Muhammed. Heck it was probably because of these guys the Benin monarchs built the world's largest earthworks - to protect against their invasion. Genghis Khan? Who knows? I doubt Genghis Khan knew anything about the Igbo republican states. The Benin empire exchanged ambassadors with Portugal. The Benin monarch even sent his son and emissaries to learn their language and religion etc, so we can be sure the monarchs of Benin knew about Europe!! But how many Germans, Swiss, or Turks knew about Ile-Ife? Probably not one. It is widely known that the Romans had no clue West Africa existed. Does that mean the Romans were ''unintelligent and backward''? If the answer is no, then why is it yes, if Yorubas knew nothing of Rome? The minute you elevate others over your own self, you start to assume you ought to know all about them even when they know nothing about you. Get rid of that complex.

3) You mentioned Nsibidi...Ok lets flesh it out. Show me a written book,religious work,scholarly work, court records or historical work done in Nsibidi extant anywhere in your area or environs that was done before the Europeans came. Mind you such a body of work must be easily verifiable by going to the said place where Nsibidi was used as a form of writing. Give dates, verifiable dates.
Also do not quote any European.

More irredeemable tripe. WHY should we not quote Europeans? They are a part of our history. If a European came in here 400 years ago, looted the place dry, and then reports that he saw court documents written in Nsibidi, why should we not accept what he says? If a robber comes to your house and clears the loot and kills off everyone in the house, and then reports a week later that he found some jewellry and cash in your cupboard during his raid, why should we disbelieve him?

Such as these testimonies by colonialists:

''PA Talbot explained that nsibidi was used for messages "cut or painted on split palm stems". J.K. Macgregor's view was that "The use of nsibidi is that of ordinary writing. I have in my possession a copy of the record of a court case from a town of Enion [Enyong] taken down in it, and every detail ... is most graphically described''

Slogar, Christopher (Spring 2007). "Early ceramics from Calabar, Nigeria: Towards a history of Nsibidi.". African Arts (University of California) 40 (1): 18–29. doi:10.1162/afar.2007.40.1.18.

LOL...I bet you if the Europeans had not documented even the destruction and slave trade people like you would have never known such things took place. If the Europeans had not drawn portraits and taken pictures of the peoples they met in Africa...you would still be ignorant of your own history. Let's leave it at that.

You are total clown. Prior to the colonial interruption, we had our ways of keeping records. Writing and oral traditions. AS I JUST SHOWED YOU ABOVE, SOMETHING WHICH YOU WILL DOUBTLESS IGNORE AND MOVE ON TO SOME OTHER Uncle Tom RANT. That the European came and dismantled those systems, (they criminalised the use of Nsibidi, driving it underground and limiting its use to local cults) replacing same with the latin script and colonial languages, does not mean, ''we would not have known'' what and what occurred had the European not colonised us. I mean, you are so dense and shallow. It's clear you think we swung from trees before your white masters arrived. I think you need to read a few good books, starting with Cheikh Anta Diop and perhaps Martin Bernal. As for examples of the Nsibidi script, WHY DON'T YOU DO A GOOGLE SEARCH ON IT, MR ''AFRICAN''? Or should I say, Mr white man in black skin?

Are you not one of us?

We do not need an African Illuminati per se...what we need is a love of beauty, knowledge, order and technology.
Based on that foundation, we can then borrow from each other without fear, bigotry and ignorance getting in the way.
The so called advanced culture of the West, Far East and Middle East was accomplished by single men who built a followership over time.
One man came up with some grandiose concept, idea or technology...that offered value to the people...and that was it.
Nimrod came up with the the first documented organized military. He also invented the cult of the Earth Mother that has been traced to almost every organized religion in ancient and contemporary history.
Horus built a followership in Egypt after overcoming his uncle Set. His dynasty invented the religious mythologies and religious societies that has been copied by the Freemasons and likes.
Anaximander, Anaximenes,Amenhotep, Aeschylus,Archimedes,Aristophanes,Galileo, Robert Hooke,Kepler,Plato,Aristotle,Huang Di,Zhu Ge Liang,
Yi Xing,Cai Lun, Zhang Heng...so many I can not name here.
Someone invented the compass,astrolabe,levers,wheels,calendar...too many universally useful inventions.
These were the products of men of prose, literature, history, mathematics, chemistry,physics, medicine, astronomy, military strategy and other sciences and arts.
We need men who have a profound love of knowledge and beauty. Who are willing to build an enabling environment to allow such values to thrive in their life time and for posterity.
No Illuminati in the control of greedy, superstitious, selfish, kleptomaniac, envious, dull and unintelligent Africans will make that happen.
It starts with you...one man...facing the reality of what is.

My opinions.

Piece of racist garbage. Africans do not love ''beauty, knowledge, order and technology'' any less than any other race. Those very things (or rather their manifestations) were more or less first developed by Africans, when your white masters were stark illiterates in caves of the caucasus mountains. Speech, writing, literature, architecture, and the sciences are credited to ancient Africans. Kerma sits in Sudan - one of the oldest cities in recorded history, dated 5,500 years old. Its ruins, fallen columns and monuments depict deep knowledge of mathematics and geometry by its African builders. 4,000 years before Greece, the first known white civilization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerma



Meanwhile, the colonialists KNEW that the blacks of Africa had brought THEM knowledge and civilization in antiquity. To them, there was no debate.

Excerpts:

Testimony from the historian wife of the first British governor general of Nigeria:

Flora Shaw's (alias Lady Flora Lugard) book, A Tropical Dependency: An Outline of the Ancient History of the Western Sudan With an Account of the Modern Settlement of Northern Nigeria, is an extraordinary look at the history of Africa, which she gathered from countless sources, and one would imagine a great deal of it came from the British Library and from the archives of The Times of London, for whom she had for many years been the Foreign Political Correspondent. She had always been known to be an intensive researcher into her subject matter, and one wonders at the months and probably years she put into this undertaking, which became the reference work for so many future books on Africa. This book was first published 100 years ago showing with detail and descriptive power, the greatness that Africa once was. Lady Lugard argues that:

"When the history of Negroland comes to be written in detail, it may be found that the kingdoms lying towards the eastern end of Sudan (classical home of Ancient Ethiopians) were the home of races who inspired, rather than of races who received, the tradition of civilization associated for us with the name of ancient Egypt. For they cover on either side of the Upper Nile between the latitudes of ten degrees and seventeen degrees, territories in which are found monuments more ancient than the oldest Egyptian monuments. If this should prove to be the case and civilized world be forced to recognize in a black people the fount of its original enlightenment, it may happen that we shall have to revise entirely our view of the black races, and regard those who now exist as the decadent representatives of an almost forgotten era, rather than as the embryonic possibility of an era yet to come."

"The fame of the ancient Ethiopians (ancient Kushites) was widespread in ancient history. Herodotus described them as the most beautiful and long-lived of the human races, and before Herodotus, Homer, in even more flattering language, described them as the most just of men, the favorites of the gods. The annals of all the great early nations of Asia Minor are full of them. The Mosaic records allude to them frequently; but while they are described as the most powerful, the most just, and the most beautiful of the human race, they are constantly spoken of as Black, and there seems to be no other conclusion to be drawn than that at that remote period of history, the leading race of the Western World was a Black race."

Lady Lugard/Flora Shaw Lugard, Asa G. Hilliard, III, A Tropical Dependency: An Outline of the Ancient History of the Western Sudan With an Account of the Modern Settlement of Northern Nigeria, (1900)

See, when even your own colonial rulers are declaring that it was your fellow blacks who civilized them aeons ago, and YOU are rejecting it, insisting on your inferiority, you know it is time for us to visit your village to inquire about your condition, and investigate who did this to you..

Meanwhile, kindly spare us your racist gobbledegook about ''knowledge of beauty, order and technology'' which Africans supposedly lack. Today, all we need is direction.

Hi Rossikk,

Passionate response I must say
But still you avoided or rather dodged my earlier questions.
Sadly the point of the discussion eluded you...that you had to resort to name calling.
You know what gives when a discussion degenerates to ad hominems...

From your responses, I can guess(might be wrong tho) that I am more informed on Ancient/Contemporary African achievements more than you.
If the tables were turned and I was the one challenged to provide documented evidence of African achievements not linked or sourced from any European...I'd provide some of the sources listed below.

The Ankh: African Origin of Electromagnetism
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ankh-African-Origin-Electromagnetism/dp/1886433127

The Teachings of Ptahhotep: The Oldest Book in the World
http://www.amazon.com/The-Teachings-Ptahhotep-Oldest-World/dp/0945708025/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8

These were stuff that happened before any white pickey had anything to do with Africa as we know it.
Time and space would not allow me to compile a comprehensive list of ancient African technology...which I can bet my left ball you probably never heard of.

In addition to the above, I'd give you direct accounts of what Africans did back then and what they are still able to do now.
I would tell you about how Africans navigated the deep forests and jungles of Africa using home grown technology.
Did you know the Yorubas have a technology called Oso that can be called a human GPS? With Oso hunters can stray
as they like into any forest and at any time find their way back! Even more they can teleport with Oso out of any life threatening
crisis!
Did you know Ogun worshippers can call iron bullets out of gun wounds?
Are you aware resurrection from the dead is child's play to some of our secret societies? And what's more if you are shown the secret...its entirely a natural (some would say diabolical) art!
Have you heard about the tracking skills of the Fulani?
I'm sure you do not how how far ancient Africans probed deep into what is now called electromagnetics.
What modern scientists now know as the wave nature of light and sound was discovered and manipulated centuries back here in Africa.
These are stuff you do not need to quote Talbot or anyone to write down...if you knew about them.
Sadly you demonstrated ignorance...and proved my point...your references are entirely European or derivatives of
European knowledge! If challenged you can then offer documented evidence or a live tour.

You sadly skipped the part where I asked you to provide me with oral histories personally known to you.
Let me give you an example, the sculptor Ben Enwonwu had to apprentice himself to the Bini guild of bronze casters to learn the art from them.
Now that is a living knowledge! You can actually take a bus to Bini or Onitsha and verify that history!
They can tell you the Oba who established the guilds, in what year and give you verifiable genealogies.
No need to quote anyone or "numerous examples" or "references".

As of today, I can confidently say you cannot read or write Nsibidi...neither do you know any one who can.
Also, you have never seen any book, scroll or script written in Nsibidi...neither do you know any one who has.
You calmly ignored my challenge to write in Nsibidi or produce someone who can...and ofcourse your reference was a whitey who again documented Nsibidi for you. LOL! You are not getting the joke my friend.

My comparison to the Europeans and Asians was to open your mind to the enduring nature of their cultures...something we Africans
sorely lack. The Bhagavad Gita, the Puranas, the Mayan codices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices), Caesar's Gallic War commentaries, Ethiopian Amharic liturgy, Egyptian scrolls and hieroglyphs...are all available TODAY to be translated into any language.
The Maya codices quoted up there are available today...you can take a flight to either Yucatan or which ever European museum preserved the
scrolls and see for yourself.
The South Americas were probably ra.ped up to par with the Africans...yet their native written cultures and history survived.
So your excuse of European looting of African does not hold water. Why did ours not survive?
Heard about the Mayan prophecies in 2012?
I am yet to see any written sub saharan extant text available TODAY for translation. Maybe you can inform me better.
You did not even mention the Dogons of Mali and their astounding astronomical knowledge.
If you had, my question to you would have been...had the Frenchmen not documented their history and made it public...how would you an African have known about the Dogon? The Europeans,Egyptians, Babylonians even know about Sirius and worshiped the star.
Do you or any sub saharan ethnic group have any oral history of Sirius?
Help me out, give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
Almost all known cultures that had a knowledge of astronomy or astrology can provide not only available astronomical texts but also give you the names of most of the planets.


You see, I had the same firebrand conviction of Afrocentrism...until I decided to face reality.
The world had left Africa behind...a long time ago.
Believe it or not...you are desperately trying to prove that Africans were up to par with the Asians and Europeans.
I am challenging you on that.
I an African, who has spent considerable time studying African history, culture, tradition, mysticism and esoteric beliefs.
My challenge to you is...prove to me that the world has not left Africa behind.
You can dare me on any aspect of African culture. I'm guessing you are the type who would run from a procession of native worshippers in your street. You strike me as the bookish type who would be scared silly at the sight of an Olokun possession trance.
Yet today, high ranking politicians in Africa and South Americas all troop to those who have that gift.
You probably have no idea how powerful a king like Ovomramwen was or what his Ishan priests were capable of doing.
Or what the Iya Agbas in the Alaafin's court were capable of manifesting.
These were men who held the power of life and death at a time when human sacrifices was a day to day affair of public life.
There were incredibly knowledgeable and powerful men and women we had who investigated and manipulated natural forces.
Yet they all fell apart like a part of cards at the appearance of a mere English "trading company".
You have no idea how angry that thought makes me.

Why am I pointing out all these to you?
My point...these men and their kingdoms/chiefdoms...were subjugated,dethroned,led away in chains,exiled and made to sign over their lands and resources in perpetuity to a foreign monarch who will probably never set foot in Africa!
Why? Why were they so easily colonized and their land, resources and people exploited?
What happened to their power and awesome technology?
I would have expected to hear of how Sango was invoked to stop the Europeans in their paths when they trespassed the borders of Oyo.
Or how Amadioha was called upon to strike dead the Europeans encroaching on Igbo hinterlands.
Or how the Hausas, Nupes and Fulanis proved whatever form of superiority they had when faced with 2 Maxim guns of the British forces.
Even the Ijebu kingdom did not fare any better. After sacrificing to the river goddess to ensure victory...their forces gave way to superior British military forces.
Goldie, an English trader bought up the whole of Nigeria from the Niger Delta to Sokoto...the title deed of your country...which the British
forced your fathers to sign over...at gun point and pain of death or exile...belongs to the British. Deal with that.
The Berlin Conference carved up your ancestral lands and that of your neighboring ethnic groups...they even named you what you bear today.
You are a Nigerian because an English trader and his wife fancied the name. And their monarch liked the idea.

I know you are an intelligent chap and can read meanings into to what I wrote up there.
Let me summarise my stand.
In terms of science, arts, technology, learning...the Europeans, Asians, American Indians have proved to be ahead of us Africans.
The Europeans out of all the races on the face of the earth have proved to have superior intellectual skills.
Their language, culture, science, religion (borrowed or not)...is the dominant influence on the planet.
They have a better documented history than us Africans. Their science and technology is way ahead of anything we have or seem to have had.
If you agree that the superior cannot bow to the inferior...they you can begin to understand why Africans generally have been at the bottom of the pole for centuries if not millenniums.
The culture of research and development, appreciation of beauty and order...which has consistently been lacking in Africa...is the bane of African development. You know the facts.
While the Europeans were busy charting the seas and oceans, charting the shorelines of continents...what were our ancestors doing?
Why are almost all African countries creations of European colonialists?
If we care to have any laudable history to our posterity 500 years from now...we need to come to grips with the reality of our situation.
And not just that...we Africans need to start doing our own thing. Do it our own way. How we want it. The exact way we like it.
We need to replace ignorance with concrete knowledge. Replace political weakness with strength. Develop our lands to modern standards and beyond...and take our rightful place on the world stage...on our own terms.
The Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, Egyptians all did it...their own way and left an enduring legacy.
We Africans can also do it and contribute our own quota to world history.
That is my point. Hope u got it this time.

1. Throw off there religion and gods and embrace yours

2. Throw off there names and embrace yours.

3. Sieve out the scam been thought in our schools e.g "Mungo Park Discover the source of River Niger etc" used in corrupting the mind of the youth and instead enshrine our culture and our own science in our school curricula.

With self realisation all other things would fall in place.
Peace...

PabloAfricanus:
Hi Rossikk,


From your responses, I can guess(might be wrong tho) that I am more informed on Ancient/Contemporary African achievements more than you.
If the tables were turned and I was the one challenged to provide documented evidence of African achievements not linked or sourced from any European...I'd provide some of the sources listed below.

The Ankh: African Origin of Electromagnetism
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ankh-African-Origin-Electromagnetism/dp/1886433127

The Teachings of Ptahhotep: The Oldest Book in the World
http://www.amazon.com/The-Teachings-Ptahhotep-Oldest-World/dp/0945708025/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8

These were stuff that happened before any white pickey had anything to do with Africa as we know it.
Time and space would not allow me to compile a comprehensive list of ancient African technology...which I can bet my left ball you probably never heard of.

In addition to the above, I'd give you direct accounts of what Africans did back then and what they are still able to do now.
I would tell you about how Africans navigated the deep forests and jungles of Africa using home grown technology.
Did you know the Yorubas have a technology called Oso that can be called a human GPS? With Oso hunters can stray
as they like into any forest and at any time find their way back! Even more they can teleport with Oso out of any life threatening
crisis!
Did you know Ogun worshippers can call iron bullets out of gun wounds?
Are you aware resurrection from the dead is child's play to some of our secret societies? And what's more if you are shown the secret...its entirely a natural (some would say diabolical) art!
Have you heard about the tracking skills of the Fulani?
I'm sure you do not how how far ancient Africans probed deep into what is now called electromagnetics.
What modern scientists now know as the wave nature of light and sound was discovered and manipulated centuries back here in Africa.
These are stuff you do not need to quote Talbot or anyone to write down...if you knew about them.
Sadly you demonstrated ignorance...and proved my point...your references are entirely European or derivatives of
European knowledge! If challenged you can then offer documented evidence or a live tour.

You sadly skipped the part where I asked you to provide me with oral histories personally known to you.
Let me give you an example, the sculptor Ben Enwonwu had to apprentice himself to the Bini guild of bronze casters to learn the art from them.
Now that is a living knowledge! You can actually take a bus to Bini or Onitsha and verify that history!
They can tell you the Oba who established the guilds, in what year and give you verifiable genealogies.
No need to quote anyone or "numerous examples" or "references".

As of today, I can confidently say you cannot read or write Nsibidi...neither do you know any one who can.
Also, you have never seen any book, scroll or script written in Nsibidi...neither do you know any one who has.
You calmly ignored my challenge to write in Nsibidi or produce someone who can...and ofcourse your reference was a whitey who again documented Nsibidi for you. LOL! You are not getting the joke my friend.

My comparison to the Europeans and Asians was to open your mind to the enduring nature of their cultures...something we Africans
sorely lack. The Bhagavad Gita, the Puranas, the Mayan codices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices), Caesar's Gallic War commentaries, Ethiopian Amharic liturgy, Egyptian scrolls and hieroglyphs...are all available TODAY to be translated into any language.
The Maya codices quoted up there are available today...you can take a flight to either Yucatan or which ever European museum preserved the
scrolls and see for yourself.
The South Americas were probably ra.ped up to par with the Africans...yet their native written cultures and history survived.
So your excuse of European looting of African does not hold water. Why did ours not survive?
Heard about the Mayan prophecies in 2012?
I am yet to see any written sub saharan extant text available TODAY for translation. Maybe you can inform me better.
You did not even mention the Dogons of Mali and their astounding astronomical knowledge.
If you had, my question to you would have been...had the Frenchmen not documented their history and made it public...how would you an African have known about the Dogon? The Europeans,Egyptians, Babylonians even know about Sirius and worshiped the star.
Do you or any sub saharan ethnic group have any oral history of Sirius?
Help me out, give me the name for any of these planets in any African language or culture (Mars, Mercury, Venus or Jupiter).
Almost all known cultures that had a knowledge of astronomy or astrology can provide not only available astronomical texts but also give you the names of most of the planets.


You see, I had the same firebrand conviction of Afrocentrism...until I decided to face reality.
The world had left Africa behind...a long time ago.
Believe it or not...you are desperately trying to prove that Africans were up to par with the Asians and Europeans.
I am challenging you on that.
I an African, who has spent considerable time studying African history, culture, tradition, mysticism and esoteric beliefs.
My challenge to you is...prove to me that the world has not left Africa behind.
You can dare me on any aspect of African culture. I'm guessing you are the type who would run from a procession of native worshippers in your street. You strike me as the bookish type who would be scared silly at the sight of an Olokun possession trance.
Yet today, high ranking politicians in Africa and South Americas all troop to those who have that gift.
You probably have no idea how powerful a king like Ovomramwen was or what his Ishan priests were capable of doing.
Or what the Iya Agbas in the Alaafin's court were capable of manifesting.
These were men who held the power of life and death at a time when human sacrifices was a day to day affair of public life.
There were incredibly knowledgeable and powerful men and women we had who investigated and manipulated natural forces.
Yet they all fell apart like a part of cards at the appearance of a mere English "trading company".
You have no idea how angry that thought makes me.

Why am I pointing out all these to you?
My point...these men and their kingdoms/chiefdoms...were subjugated,dethroned,led away in chains,exiled and made to sign over their lands and resources in perpetuity to a foreign monarch who will probably never set foot in Africa!
Why? Why were they so easily colonized and their land, resources and people exploited?
What happened to their power and awesome technology?
I would have expected to hear of how Sango was invoked to stop the Europeans in their paths when they trespassed the borders of Oyo.
Or how Amadioha was called upon to strike dead the Europeans encroaching on Igbo hinterlands.
Or how the Hausas, Nupes and Fulanis proved whatever form of superiority they had when faced with 2 Maxim guns of the British forces.
Even the Ijebu kingdom did not fare any better. After sacrificing to the river goddess to ensure victory...their forces gave way to superior British military forces.
Goldie, an English trader bought up the whole of Nigeria from the Niger Delta to Sokoto...the title deed of your country...which the British
forced your fathers to sign over...at gun point and pain of death or exile...belongs to the British. Deal with that.
The Berlin Conference carved up your ancestral lands and that of your neighboring ethnic groups...they even named you what you bear today.
You are a Nigerian because an English trader and his wife fancied the name. And their monarch liked the idea.

I know you are an intelligent chap and can read meanings into to what I wrote up there.
Let me summarise my stand.
In terms of science, arts, technology, learning...the Europeans, Asians, American Indians have proved to be ahead of us Africans.
The Europeans out of all the races on the face of the earth have proved to have superior intellectual skills.
Their language, culture, science, religion (borrowed or not)...is the dominant influence on the planet.
They have a better documented history than us Africans. Their science and technology is way ahead of anything we have or seem to have had.
If you agree that the superior cannot bow to the inferior...they you can begin to understand why Africans generally have been at the bottom of the pole for centuries if not millenniums.
The culture of research and development, appreciation of beauty and order...which has consistently been lacking in Africa...is the bane of African development. You know the facts.
While the Europeans were busy charting the seas and oceans, charting the shorelines of continents...what were our ancestors doing?
Why are almost all African countries creations of European colonialists?
If we care to have any laudable history to our posterity 500 years from now...we need to come to grips with the reality of our situation.
And not just that...we Africans need to start doing our own thing. Do it our own way. How we want it. The exact way we like it.
We need to replace ignorance with concrete knowledge. Replace political weakness with strength. Develop our lands to modern standards and beyond...and take our rightful place on the world stage...on our own terms.
The Europeans, Asians, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, Egyptians all did it...their own way and left an enduring legacy.
We Africans can also do it and contribute our own quota to world history.
That is my point. Hope u got it this time.

Can't be bothered with your long epistle which evades everything I earlier wrote, debunking your assertions.

Rossikk:


Can't be bothered with your long epistle which evades everything I earlier wrote, debunking your assertions.

Let me leave you with this parting thoughts...
A few centuries from now...when you and I have long departed from this planet...
The descendants of you, I, other living Africans...are going to wonder why their entire world view is entirely European.
All that you are today is a product of Western thought...I tried to awaken you to that reality...but you turned to insults.
The old glories of bygone Africans you are basking in are not visible in your village.
Kerma and her ancient culture are not replicated anywhere in your country.
None of the known culture of Egypt or Kush can be seen anywhere in your vicinity.
None of the architecture, writing, culture of Ancient Kush or Egypt can be found within your ethnic group or surrounding ones.
If there is tell me about it...not third party "quotes" and "references"! Tell me what your forefathers called a pyramid or an Egyptian uraeus.
Prove to me that you forebears knew about Egypt or Kush...that you do not need Westerners to tell your story.

If you cannot do any of the above...I'm sorry you are a western slave and will pass on that state to your descendants.
You my friend are simply living on supposedly "African" past glory. Pity!
To make it worse, I tried pointing out to you...that your history is being told by foreigners.
The bulk of what Africans know about ancient African history came from the studies of the whites.
Tell your own story...let it be a living story coming from you!
Stop being a Wikipedia historian!
If Europeans had to do the digging and documentation to unearth the majority of your so called history...I'm afraid you are either historically dead or just about to be

The Egyptians found out to their horror few years after the founding of Alexandria that Greek culture, language and religion have completely taken over their land!
Their ancient scrolls and histories had been transcribed to Greek by imperial command...and their children were now learning Egyptian religion, science and history..in Greek...from Greek teachers!
Right now this is where Africans find themselves...I tried from my first post to point that out to you.
If you are going to bask in the glory of ancient African achievements...tell the story in your own tongue, by your own people.
"Numerous references" and "examples" from Western historians can then add to or corroborate your history.

And let me re-iterate for ya...Ancient Nubia, Kush, Ethiopia and Egypt are not synonymous with sub saharan Africa.
You as expected demonstrated laughable ignorance of that fact.
Quoting Western and other African authors who only heard about Egypt from the whites...still leaves your history in the hands of foreigners!
If you cannot today tell me the oral history of your own people about Akhenaten or any of the black pharaohs of Egypt then shut it!
Piye invaded Egypt in 730 BC, after conquering the Lower and Upper Egypt...he returned home to Nubia.
If you want to claim that as an "African" thing for Yorubas, Igbos and Hausas of today...the logical thing to do would be to produce your own oral history of Piye. If you can't then go do it. That way your history and culture will be told by you...and it will be more authentic.
Else a humble submission that you've entirely lost it...would be appropriate...and thats a starting point I've been preaching.

I'm suspecting you are either an African American or a Nigerian who grew up abroad.
Those ancient cultures were distinct and separate civilizations from other ethnic cultures or groups in Africa.
Kush, Nubia, or Ethiopia does not equal Ewe, Fanti, Bantu, Xhosa, Bini, Nupe, Fulani, Yoruba, Zulu or any of the numerous peoples in Africa.
If you do not understand that...then you really need to learn more about Africa.

Ciao.

PabloAfricanus. and Rossikk. Your debates has been an eye opener and quite enlightening. Very objective I must say, though I'm not choosing side because I'm lacking in knowledge in this regard ; Please with your vast knowledge of African history could you share your resources with willing students like me. I'm so much in hunger of what our fore fathers life was before and during the colonial era.
And to the question of how the Colonist were able to subdue our land, I think its because of the rife and lack of trust between the various tribe then. for instance there were always at war with one another.

Unification of africa? When you cannot unify a single region say West africa

This is a fantasy cause I don't see this happening without a military conquest and political domination of one African state