Kay17:
.

Education: Do you expect a woman who has B. Sc. be placed in the same position as a man who has masters because of political correctness or equality? Flip it the other way: Would you like if a man with B.Sc. is placed in the same level with you (a Masters' holder) because he is a man?

Experience: Come on.... this 100% explains itself.

The article is trying to be sensational; let them sample two groups of men with different education and experience and see if they will be in the same wage level.

Bring on another article to justify the wage gap in Nigeria.

Nonso23:


How does the above discredit cooger's, timbuktou's, damiso's, bukatyne's or the general opposition's stance.

All these points or most of them were brought up in their arguments.

i think she's just arguing because she likes the colour of her prints. women should stop running away from maths & science if they want equal pay. what a woman would get depends on the course she studied in college

even when it was discovered more women are actually taking more STEM courses recently, new research found out many of them don't stay too long in that career - they quickly abandon the ship & opt for less mentally-tasking roles.

Nonso23:


How does the above discredit cooger's, timbuktou's, damiso's, bukatyne's or the general opposition's stance.

All these points or most of them were brought up in their arguments.

All the links in each step prove there is gender inequality, not just that but also unequal pay. Whilst the denial crowd's argument is there is no unequal pay discrimination nor any other gender discrimination at the workplace. The links clearly disprove that. The ball is in your court.

The whole notion of forced equality is not even the real discussion here. In fact, I feel employment, wages, etc. largely reflect male/female choices and some forms of customary discrimination are actually a good thing.

As Coogar has pointed out for the STEM courses, it's instructive to note the case in medicine. About 60% of female Dr's in the UK leave the profession within 10 years. Another large cohort opt for P/T work.

Outcome; serious backlogs in GP's surgeries and a resultant influx into A&E, causing real pressure. As more women will soon be admitted to medical school than men, it means added funding to train, what will be a smaller cadre of Dr's.

The rates of attrition mean that essentially, two women have to be trained to fill one slot? Raising problems with funding the training in addition to the reduced service delivery. PC means it can't even be discussed without howls of protest.

Why shouldn't men be given preference here? It's clear there is more to this than performance at the time of admission - 18'ish - when girls tend to be slightly ahead of boys (in terms of requirements and how they present).

Equality as a stand alone notion does not necessarily serve the best interest of the whole and shouldn't be zealously pursued without wider consideration.


TV

bukatyne:


Education: Do you expect a woman who has B. Sc. be placed in the same position as a man who has masters because of political correctness or equality? Flip it the other way: Would you like if a man with B.Sc. is placed in the same level with you (a Masters' holder) because he is a man?

Experience: Come on.... this 100% explains itself.

The article is trying to be sensational; let them sample two groups of men with different education and experience and see if they will be in the same wage level.

Bring on another article to justify the wage gap in Nigeria.

The three articles were not enough? How many do I have to produce? 20? 30? 50? 100? When will you be satisfied?!

But you believe since women are incapable of acquiring postgraduate degrees and incapable of accumulating experience they coincidentally fell in the disadvantaged group, right? At least you were one of those denying unequal pay exists, now you know it does BUT for good reasons?

TV01:
The whole notion of forced equality is not even the real discussion here. In fact, I feel employment, wages, etc. largely reflect male/female choices and some forms of customary discrimination are actually a good thing.

As Coogar has pointed out for the STEM courses, it's instructive to note the case in medicine. About 60% of female Dr's in the UK leave the profession within 10 years. Another large cohort opt for P/T work.

Outcome; serious backlogs in GP's surgeries and a resultant influx into A&E, causing real pressure. As more women will soon be admitted to medical school than men, it means added funding to train, what will be a smaller cadre of Dr's.

The rates of attrition mean that essentially, two women have to be trained to fill one slot? Raising problems with funding the training in addition to the reduced service delivery. PC means it can't even be discussed without howls of protest.

Why shouldn't men be given preference here? It's clear there is more to this than performance at the time of admission - 18'ish - when girls tend to be slightly ahead of boys (in terms of requirements and how they present).

Equality as a stand alone notion does not necessarily serve the best interest of the whole and shouldn't be zealously pursued without wider consideration.


TV

SO you agree there is unequal pay in Nigeria? Why then did you bother me to search for the evidence proving so?!

Kay17:


The three articles were not enough? How many do I have to produce? 20? 30? 50? 100? When will you be satisfied?!

But you believe since women are incapable of acquiring postgraduate degrees and incapable of accumulating experience they coincidentally fell in the disadvantaged group, right? At least you were one of those denying unequal pay exists, now you know it does BUT for good reasons?

why are women incapable of acquiring post graduate degrees? is it by force to marry & get pregnant? women can very much achieve whatever they want to achieve - is the gender not equal again?

Why shouldn't men be given preference here? It's clear there is more to this than performance at the time of admission - 18'ish - when girls tend to be slightly ahead of boys (in terms of requirements and how they present).

that was exactly what i told my GP the last time i visited. i told him the ratio of male to female admission in the medical schools should be a mandatory 2:1 in favour of the men. the women don't stay long in that profession and this is why there's always a shortage of doctors in the medical field!

coogar:


why are women incapable of acquiring post graduate degrees? is it by force to marry & get pregnant? women can very much achieve whatever they want to achieve - is the gender not equal again?



that was exactly what i told my GP the last time i visited. i told him the ratio of male to female admission in the medical schools should be a mandatory 2:1 in favour of the men. the women don't stay long in that profession and this is why there's always a shortage of doctors in the medical field!

Ok. Since that is the case, don't you think women who want to break that cycle of marry, get pregnant and rear babies; and have professionally fulfilling lives, are morally justified and courageous? Women should be taught well that marriages are farces and they would have more fulfilling lives without marriages, right?

Kay17:
SO you agree there is unequal pay in Nigeria? Why then did you bother me to search for the evidence proving so?!

I don't believe there is institutionalised gender pay disparity in Nigeria. Even moreso, in the West. There may be vestigial bad practice here and there, but even that likely cuts both ways to some degree.

It's mostly about choices, ability and ethic. And if anything, trying to force equality is producing poorer overall outcomes, as I noted in my previous post.

Some forms of customary discrimination made sense and would still be understandable for the overall good. Although I'm not calling for it's re-introduction, or am even certain we could roll back the tide.


TV

Kay17:

Ok. Since that is the case, don't you think women who want to break that cycle of marry, get pregnant and rear babies; and have professionally fulfilling lives, are morally justified and courageous? Women should be taught well that marriages are farces and they would have more fulfilling lives without marriages, right?

women can marry & decide not to have kids. marriage isn't the limitation, raising kids seem to be the problem. i also suspect it's deeper than marriage & children - women just generally lose interest at anything once they have stayed in it for 10+ years.

TV01:

I don't believe there is institutionalised gender pay disparity in Nigeria. Even moreso, in the West. There may be vestigial bad practice here and there, but even that likely cuts both ways to some degree.

It's mostly about choices, ability and ethic. And if anything, trying to force equality is producing poorer overall outcomes, as I noted in my previous post.

Some forms of customary discrimination made sense and would still be understandable for the overall good. Although I'm not calling for it's re-introduction, or am even certain we could roll back the tide.


TV

This is a classic example of eating your cake and having it. How are you able to deny a fact and at the same time justify it! It is a remarkable talent! The bolded will not make any sense except it justifies a difference. And the coloured is even worse! What is the customary discrimination if not for what feminists are crying against!!

coogar:


women can marry & decide not to have kids. marriage isn't the limitation, raising kids seem to be the problem. i also suspect it's deeper than marriage & children - women just generally lose interest at anything once they have stayed in it for 10+ years.

But you would admire such women and praise their bravery, right?

After 10 years, do women lose interest in raising their children? Raising children is still an activity as understood in our dictionaries.

Kay17:

But you would admit such women and praise their bravery, right?

yes!
if it's for a greater good - saving lives. such women are heroes!

After 10 years, do women lose interest in raising their children?

yes......they do!
they leave the rest in the hands of ekaettes & akpans.

Kay17:

This is a classic example of eating your cake and having it. How are you able to deny a fact and at the same time justify it! It is a remarkable talent! The bolded will not make any sense except it justifies a difference. And the coloured is even worse! What is the customary discrimination if not for what feminists are crying against!!

if anything, you are the one trying to eat your cake & have it. you have admitted men tend to choose higher paying jobs than women, men tend to work longer hours than women but you still want them to be paid equally.

the wage difference you have discovered in nigeria isn't injustice - the rate is the same, the number of hours put in is what differs. you cannot expect a woman that skips work every now & then to attend to family issues to be paid equally as a man that is diligent at his work.

coogar:


yes!
if it's for a greater good - saving lives. such women are heroes!

That is what feminists are trying to do. You have finally understood a woman's mind. Congratulations! Pat yourself.

yes......they do!
they leave the rest in the hands of ekaettes & akpans.

Like your mother did. Loool!

Kay17:
Ok. Since that is the case, don't you think women who want to break that cycle of marry, get pregnant and rear babies; and have professionally fulfilling lives, are morally justified and courageous? Women should be taught well that marriages are farces and they would have more fulfilling lives without marriages, right?

There is all sorts of wrong with this statement;

1. It women who want babies most - not men
2. Women can combine both satisfactorily - even if some sacrifice is required
3. Marriage is not a farce - on the contrary, it's the basal building block of harmonious and flourishing societies
4. Yes, I suppose some women could live fulfilling lives without marriage. Some. Refer to point 1.
5. Per #4, why would those lives not be even more fulfilled with marriage?

The only categorical distinction in humans is male/female. Not black/white, straight/gay, or any other. The whole biological difference, functioning and purpose is geared towards child-rearing - not fulfilling careers.

I don't deny a form of fulfilment from a career, but it should not be considered a substitute or alternative to a family. And certainly not as worthy, moral or courageous

Most Western industrialised countries are facing a ticking demographic time-bomb due to falling fertility. They are simply not breding at replacement rates (approx 2.2 babies p/w). Japan and Germany are particularly bad - where's carefreewannabe for her daily diss !

Society can't just be about women, neither can it be ordered solely on a notion of equality.

coogar:
that was exactly what i told my GP the last time i visited. i told him the ratio of male to female admission in the medical schools should be a mandatory 2:1 in favour of the men. the women don't stay long in that profession and this is why there's always a shortage of doctors in the medical field!

In the UK that conversation is shut-down everytime. No one even has the liver. Wetin e talk?


TV

Kay17:
This is a classic example of eating your cake and having it. How are you able to deny a fact and at the same time justify it! It is a remarkable talent! The bolded will not make any sense except it justifies a difference. And the coloured is even worse! What is the customary discrimination if not for what feminists are crying against!!

No it is not. Equality is forced even where there are clear differences or when the outcomes are poorer. How can that make sense?

Customary discrimination was not simply males favoured over females. Customary discrtimination is - all things being equal - prefering a married man with kids over a single woman, or a single man. It's women and children first! And it would make sense in the medical profession.


TV

Kay17:

That is what feminists are trying to do. You have finally understood a woman's mind. Congratulations! Pat yourself.

feminists are trying to eat their cake & have it. if women aren't as productive as men, why force gender equality down the throats of women? women would always be hampered by family issues - men don't get pregnant so there's a disconnect biologically.

Like your mother did. Loool!

and yours too......
the attention babies got from their mothers is different to what kids of 10 years got from the mothers. women generally lose interest when the going gets tough.

in other words, you are the inferior gender.

TV01:

There is all sorts of wrong with this statement;

1. It women who want babies most - not men
2. Women can combine both satisfactorily - even if some sacrifice is required
3. Marriage is not a farce - on the contrary, it's the basal building block of harmonious and flourishing societies
4. Yes, I suppose some women could live fulfilling lives without marriage. Some. Refer to point 1.
5. Per #4, why would those lives not be even more fulfilled with marriage?

The only categorical distinction in humans is male/female. Not black/white, straight/gay, or any other. The whole biological difference, functioning and purpose is geared towards child-rearing - not fulfilling careers.

I don't deny a form of fulfilment from a career, but it should not be considered a substitute or alternative to a family. And certainly not as worthy, moral or courageous

Most Western industrialised countries are facing a ticking demographic time-bomb due to falling fertility. They are simply not breding at replacement rates (approx 2.2 babies p/w). Japan and Germany are particularly bad - where's carefreewannabe for her daily diss !

Society can't just be about women, neither can it be ordered solely on a notion of equality.


In the UK that conversation is shut-down everytime. No one even has the liver. Wetin e talk?


TV

You do not agree with Coogar on most of his points then?

coogar:


feminists are trying to eat their cake & have it. if women aren't as productive as men, why force gender equality down the throats of women? women would always be hampered by family issues - men don't get pregnant so there's a disconnect biologically.

You must really anti marriage feminists good.

and yours too......
the attention babies got from their mothers is different to what kids of 10 years got from the mothers. women generally lose interest when the going gets tough.

in other words, you are the inferior gender.

Thankss!

Kay17:
The three articles were not enough? How many do I have to produce? 20? 30? 50? 100? When will you be satisfied?!

Take it cool, this is a discussion

The article I read certainly doesn't lend credence to your position

Kay17:
But you believe since women are incapable of acquiring postgraduate degrees and incapable of accumulating experience they coincidentally fell in the disadvantaged group, right?

Women incapable of

If women acquire their post graduate degrees, they will definitely be promoted.

I am a feminist and I will cry out if a woman is promoted to the same position as a man without paying her dues

Kay17:
At least you were one of those denying unequal pay exists, now you know it does BUT for good reasons?

My boss with about 7 years experience more than I do earns about 6times my salary....

Is it wage gap? Should I be worried?

And my boss is a woman

P.S.: I do not even believe and encourage quota system.

bukatyne:


Take it cool, this is a discussion

The article I read certainly doesn't lend credence to your position



Women incapable of

If women acquire their post graduate degrees, they will definitely be promoted.

I am a feminist and I will cry out if a woman is promoted to the same position as a man without paying her dues



My boss with about 7 years experience more than I do earns about 6times my salary....

Is it wage gap? Should I be worried?

And my boss is a woman

P.S.: I do not even believe and encourage quota system.

What article did you look at?

Kay17:

You must really anti marriage feminists good.

i am not anti-marriage!
the choices here are simple but yet feminists want to eat their cake & have it.

if a woman wants a high-flying career, she should marry without any plans of having kids. nothing would disrupt her career ladder.

however, if a woman chooses kids over career, then she should be contented with her choice and not get jealous of the men's salary cos the men are putting in more hours than her.

what you cannot do is to expect a man that works 40 hours a week to get the same pay as a woman who works 22 hrs a week. that is unfair. why & how women work less hours is irrelevant to the employer.

Thankss!

you are blessed!

TV01:

There is all sorts of wrong with this statement;

1. It women who want babies most - not men

'Tis a lie, this point. So much so that I exit the sidelines to address it all its own. I'm actually more and more convinced that men want children more fervently than women do. And I'm not basing this purely off my own experiences.

Ponder on it.

EnlightenedSoul:


'Tis a lie, this point. So much so that I exit the sidelines to address it all its own. I'm actually more and more convinced that men want children more fervently than women do. And I'm not basing this purely off my own experiences.

Ponder on it.

How?
This is not true.
Ur assumption is glaring spurious.

EnlightenedSoul:
'Tis a lie, this point. So much so that I exit the sidelines to address it all its own. I'm actually more and more convinced that men want children more fervently than women do. And I'm not basing this purely off my own experiences.
Ponder on it.

Pondered, wondered and gon' dered (sorry, best I could do off the cuff !)

Can't be true as a biological imperative. Women have shorter windows and limited opportunity. A womans fertile years are limited relative to a mans. A woman can only be pregnant to delivery once for any 9 month duration.

Men can impregnate as many as they can lie with. The delivery risk (non-existent for men) and post-delivery burden is greater on women also. Simply put, spermatozoa is cheap, the effort minimal, risk low and the burden comparitively light. The male urge is more for "expression", the female for "conception". Nothing to engender fervency in men !

Culturally, it's still women who show more fervency - although men do as well. Men don't have ot work against the clock as much for marriage or children. They handle the pressure better as a result and find more solace/respect in status - apart from marriage.

You need to share - insightfully - on this or take a strike for trolling !

Kay17:
You do not agree with Coogar on most of his points then?

I'm not parsing Coogars points, I'm parsing yours - which I find to be all ideologically driven but not grounded in reality. Patriarchy is normal - it's what women want! Men are mean tto lead and dominate, there may be a few exceptiosn, but overall, we flourish best that way.


TV

TV01:

Pondered, wondered and gon' dered (sorry, best I could do off the cuff !)

Can't be true as a biological imperative. Women have shorter windows and limited opportunity. A womans fertile years are limited relative to a mans. A woman can only be pregnant to delivery once for any 9 month duration.

Men can impregnate as many as they can lie with. The delivery risk (non-existent for men) and post-delivery burden is greater on women also. Simply put, spermatozoa is cheap, the effort minimal, risk low and the burden comparitively light. The male urge is more for "expression", the female for "conception". Nothing to engender fervency in men !

Culturally, it's still women who show more fervency - although men do as well. Men don't have ot work against the clock as much for marriage or children. They handle the pressure better as a result and find more solace/respect in status - apart from marriage.

You need to share - insightfully - on this or take a strike for trolling !

TV

In our culture, men want children as much as women or more.

In discussions, I even find out that men also want more children than women.

bukatyne:


In our culture, men want children as much as women or more.

In discussions, I even find out that men also want more children than women.

This too! My goodness, it's galling.

I'll be back for you, TV. Let me get home.

TV01:


I'm not parsing Coogars points, I'm parsing yours - which I find to be all ideologically driven but not grounded in reality. Patriarchy is normal - it's what women want! Men are mean tto lead and dominate, there may be a few exceptiosn, but overall, we flourish best that way.


TV

@bolded, how do you know that? The feminists clearly show they don't. Do you still think there is no unequal pay in the labour market in Nigeria?

EnlightenedSoul:


This too! My goodness, it's galling.

I'll be back for you, TV. Let me get home.

Lol

Book knowledge is different from one's perception.

kaboninc:


Inferiority and superiority, when used between genders in some context can be derogatory.

On the issue of accessories, both genders can be accessories to each other.

The original idea of feminism is to champion the cause of equal opportunities and rights for women. These opportunities extends to both political and social roles. However, in a family, the idea of equal opportunities on who heads a family should not be questioned or debated. It is customary for a man to be the head of a family. That does not mean that in some situations or circumstances, a woman cannot a assume leadership role.

It was also customary for twin to be butchered in some parts of Nigeria before Mary Slessor changed that. Just because it is customary doesn't not equate to the custom being above reproach.

Kay17:


Ok. Since that is the case, don't you think women who want to break that cycle of marry, get pregnant and rear babies; and have professionally fulfilling lives, are morally justified and courageous? Women should be taught well that marriages are farces and they would have more fulfilling lives without marriages , right?

This is insulting.

What is your own definition of a 'Fufilled Life' , have no family & work 24/7/365 days every calendar year. to prove what point exactly, equal to a man?

So I should kill myself because I call in sick (which automatically reduces my wage again) twice a month because of my cycle? Ain't that competitive

Hmmm You are truly a Feminist.

bukatyne:
In our culture, men want children as much as women or more.

Not more, not less, exactly the same? Wanting as an express desire and the effort and timings are totally different. The limiting factors are mostly heavily weighted for females. It's why men can have harems. And children are more biological imperative for women and status for men.

bukatyne:
In discussions, I even find out that men also want more children than women.

Of course we do. We have very little risk and only really have the burden - shared - of provision. Do you know what childbirth can do to a woman? I have a cousin who had 4 by CS. Here the max is 3. I would not have 4 CS' for anything. 1 sef

Yes na. I would love 2 more, 4 sef. But that's effortless for me to say and almost effortless for me to do. One area I don't demand obedience - and wifey has said no more . Truth is, I wouldn't allow it. What even I went through - which was nothing comparitively - I can't go through again. But if I could have multiple wives, why not?


TV
^{...and in the West you can have the kids and escape the burden if you are able to act irresponsibly. Some men have 20}