I stand to be corrected, if i am wrong. We Know and proclaim that God is OMNISCIENCE, meaning that he knows all things, He knew us before we came into existence, and He knows what will happens the next second.

My question now is -According to Gen 3, where the serpent tricked Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, WHY DID GOD PUT THAT TREE THERE WHEN HE KNEW THAT IF IT IS EATEN, IT WILL CAUSE HAVOC TO THE BEATIFUL WORLD HE CREATED.

Secondly in Gen 6 vs 7- GOD said " i will wipe out these paople i have created, and also the animals and the birds, because i am sorry that i made any of them. The Questions now is, WHY DID HE MAKE THAT KIND OF STATEMENT, IS IT THAT HE NEVER KNEW THAT HUMANS WERE GOING TO BE THAT BAD? WHY THE REGRET

Lastly, In 1 thess 4 vs 17- Then we which are living at that time will be gathered up along with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, And so shall we ever be with the Lord, THE QUESTION- Was It God's Intention, that we should be with him in heaven, if yes then why creating the earth?

I dont know if i am making sense to anybody.

There is also a portion of the binle that says no man has ascended to heaven except the Son of Man, who vame down from Heaven. Please can someone explain to me what happened to ENOCH and ELISHA?

P.S This does not mean i dont believe That GOd is OMNISCIENCE, i do believe, but i am just creating this thread, to enable us discuss and know our Bible very well. What do u think?

Ugonna my pally!
God is omniscient. Workload does not permit me to expound on this subject but I am glad you are asking very good questions which in actual fact are the foundation of our belief in GOD.
The portion of the Bible which you talk about is John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." You are right to some extent within the limitation of the english language. For you to understand this better, you may have to go back to your roots.
I will create time to explain 2row, aii?    (I pray God gives me the wisdom to make you understand what I am saying)

@ Ugonna,
Anyone who knows about this subject knows it is a very deep subject. I am taking time not only because of the time constriant on me (due to circular workload) but also to pray for wisdom in sharing the little knowledge I have as it will involve some sort of analysis.
I will create the time to explain it later, aii? But if you may ask my opinion, don't disturb your head over this as it won't prevent you from making heaven which is the ultimate goal, abi?

PART 1:
I will try to summarise this as much as I can without going too deep or theological as you put it.

2 Kings 2:11 "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

The hebrew word shamiyim translated heaven in this verse simply means sky and was not used to refer to God's realm/abode. You know when you say "heavens" in this present time, metaphorically, you mean sky and not where God dwells; It is same way that it was used in the original hebrew language in the 2kings.

John 3:13 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, , the Son of Man."
In this part of the scripture however, the greek word used here is ouranos which can also mean sky but if you look further down this chapter in verse 27 John answered, "A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven, the word used here again was ouranos, which on systematic study of the context in which it was used, you'd agree that he was refering to Heaven (God's abode). You'd therefore agree with me that the word ouranos implies much more than shamiyim does. (Like I said, I am trying not to go too deep in theology and history because the time of writing comes to play also).


Gen. 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

The bible does not explicitly say where Enoch went (although most people assume he went to heaven) and as such there is no debate about this verse however I will like to draw your attention to 1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Since Enoch and Elijah were both corrupt flesh and blood, it follows that they can not inherit the kingdom of Heaven; they were simply taken away, Elijah into the physical sky, Enoch to an unspecified place. We do not know what their current state is._{This is one part of the clarification (Theological part)}

Hmmm. This one pass my power. I', outta here

PART 2

The following best explains another way of looking at it.

John 3:13 states, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Of the translation of Enoch, we have these passages:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took
him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his
translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Although the passages do not say specifically that Enoch went to heaven,
it sure seems that he went to be with God. I will admit that this could
be argued, but what was the purpose of God taking the one who walked with
Him if he was to be taken to a place where he would not be in continual
fellowship with God?

But look at the statements concerning Elijah:

2Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into
heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and
parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

These verses teach specifically that Elijah was taken up into heaven.
Again, this might be a different heaven. Others have written and
questioned how these men could be in heaven before the shedding of the
blood of Christ. Yet, I might add that Satan has access to heaven--at
least some part of it (Job 1:6). Perhaps these men did not yet have full
access to the glories of heaven or were not able to enter the throne
room. Obviously, I am not certain here. But the Bible seems to put them
in heaven when they were taken up by God.

This brings us back to the original problem. If no man had ascended up to
heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
descending on it."

John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven.It
teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended. I
hope this helps explain the verse to you.
Till He comes,

Pastor David Reagan



I hope Pastor Reagan answered your question concerning the subject. I will answer the other questions later as the Lord gives me wisdom to.

KDK, and Pastor David Raegan, i dont know if i am more confused now. Bt lets live sleeping dogs to lie

what is confusing you there?

Does it man that Heaven is divided? As in we have maybe Heaven 1,2,3 and so while the last Heaven is where the Glory of God can be seen.  

I honestly think u shouldnt have used that passage in job, because if heaven is not to behold corruption, i know that passage righly said that- when the sons of God were gathered for a meeting, the devil was present also, and God then asked him, if he had seen his servant Job?. . . . . .

Meaning that God was also with them, Abi?

So if the devil can see Gods face with his sinful nature, why not enoch and elisha who walked righteously with God, Did they still need the shedding of the blood of Christ b4 seeing God?

hehehehe,
If I answer the last question you asked abt Satan seeing God, I may even increase your confusion(bear in mind dat satan is not flesh and blood). If you read ur book of revelations well, you'd see that HEAVEN as a kingdom has zones. But I'd also like you to find the difference between paradise, heaven, hell and lake of fire.
As per the omniscience of God, I am still seeking wisdom.

God ir really omniscience, i am not doubting that.

Paradise- The new earth, where the raptured xtians will come down with jesus to reign for 1million yrs

Heaven- Gods own abode

Hell- could also mean garve, shoel etc

Lake of fire- bottomless pit of fire where the devil, demons and unrepentant souls will perish for eternity, also known as hell fire

Hope i tried? Im not a bible scholar like you?

Hmmm, I am more than impressed! And who says I am a bible scholar? I am just a mere bible stydent. Try to find out more about hell. It is important you do.Remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man? Kindly systematically study it.
Now let me do the asking. Does man have free-will?

Off course, man has free will. God gave that to us, didnt he?

If man has freewill, then how can God be omniscient? I don't want to go too deep in this but the truth of the matter is this. You can not believe that God is omniscient and at same time believe that man has free will. You have to choose one of the two.
To make this clearer to you, I am quoting Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) who puts it clearly thus:

"Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual (let's say the Prime Minister of Canada), on Feb. 3, 2081, will put on brown shoes when dressing in the morning? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that the Prime Minister is compelled to act (i.e. to put on brown shoes) as God knew beforehand he/she would, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect. …"
So tell me, if man has free will, how can God be omniscient?

kdk, where are u. i mean part of city u are. which church do u attend. u answered those questions perfectly

I believe that Humans have freewill and the fact that God is Omniscient does not negate that freewill.
For example, He warned Cain after his sacrifice was rejected that he should be careful lest he fall into temptation. Cain didn't listen but instead yielded.  Cain could've chosen the other route.  He wasn't compelled to kill his brother.  That God already knows what He'd do even if he were to make the good choice doesn't change anything.

The other aspect is that we also have to balance His Ominscience with His Omnipotence and other attributes. Nothing is beyond His control. He has the power to rein in any loose cannon.  He foreknew Man was going to fall in garden; that was why the scripture always says the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. Nothing catches Him unawares.

Also bear in mind that God exists in Eternity (Eternity past, present & future).  He allows a brief period which we refer to as time(years, months, etc) to take place. After that's unfolded, everything also goes back to eternity. Time ceases.  If you read the writings of Paul He talks about the great abdication where the Son hands over everything to the Father who now becomes all in all.  What I'm trying to say in essence is that, He's in control of all.  Every living and non living thing is tied to Him.  If His world is destroyed, He knew it wasgoing to happen and what He'd do. He can always make it anew.  
I have a lot more to say but not that much time.

Hmmmmm. Cud we discuss offpage 'because there are some deep things i do not want our young christian readers to know for now.
There is no argument about it, free- will and omniscience of God does not seem to tally yet (or rather theologians are still trying to tally them , for instance read the question ugonna posed abt the occurence in the garden of eden); there are so many passages in the bible that challenges the omniscience of GOD and yet so many that supports it. This is not something that just cropped up. It is something that have posed a very great difficulty for theologians even as early as 900 a.d. Some have argued that God is 'outside of time' (or that 'His knowledge is timeless') and thus His knowledge is not foreknowledge at all, i.e. God's knowledge does not occur before (or during, or after, for that matter) any events in the world. The reason for this line of argument is 'cos strong arguments for freewill totally contradicts omniscience of God. You mentioned the Apostle Paul, do you actually know what Paul thinks about the subject?

How would anyone know?

One thing that all monotheistic religious groups seem to agree upon is the fact that 'god' is above human comprehension.

Unfortunately that doesn't appear to stop them from making claims as to what and who 'god' is.

I still don't understand how free will contradicts omniscience, but I can agree that His knowledge is timeless. Since He also is timeless. There's never being a time when He began. He's always being there.
By the way, don't forget that we also know in part.  No one can say with absolute certainty which is which. We could only try to engage in mental exercises based on our finite knowledge which I appreciate by the way.

he sure is!

kpof kpof i like your style I'm coming with you.
Ugonna beware of those rocks of the plateau u are sitting behind lest they fall on you.

who is asking such questionif really God is omniscent ok,you want to know.
1, HE is the OWNER of heaven and earth.
2,The CREATOR of everything
3,The MAKER of human existence
4,He does that,which pleases HIM
5,He speaks and it's done.
6,He command and everything obeys.THE SELF EXISTING GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
can you see HIS greatness all over the earth? well,hope with this few point,you will believe that GOD is the OMNISCIENT. peace.

@KDK, if u say man does not have free will, pls answer some of these questions

1. Why did God send John the Baptist to preach the message of salvation, urging people to repent for the kingdon of God is at hand

2 Why did God send Jonah to Nineveh to prach the mesage of salvation

3 Why did Joshua tell the Children of isreal to choose whom the y want to serve

4 Rev 3.20, says -behold i stand at the door and knock, IF anyone hears my voice and opens the Door, I will come into him, and sup with him and he with me

Note that the book of revelation was actually the revelation of Jesus Christ, so it was Christ who was talking. It was Christ who said IF

Note that there's a portion of the Bible that says IF U ARE WILLING AND OBEDIENT, YOU WILL EAT THE FRUIT OF THE LAND.

So KDK, pls use the Bible to move ur motion that man does not have free will, who is this Moses MAIMONDES u were quoting.

I am hoping to hear from you

P.S I still believe that Gos is Omniscient And Man has free will. Remember that the day we humans beging to understand the mystery surrounding God, then he ceases to be God.

I rest my acse for now, but KDK, i will really like to know where u worship

K2,
To buttress the point of the non- intersection of free-will and omniscience, let us use this example:

If God is omniscient, it means HE knows all things before they happen, while they happen and after they've happened right?

The omniscience of God means He has a foreknowledge of everything before they happen. So, if we place 2 balls (Red and Black) in front of Alex and we ask Alex to choose one. Since God is Omniscient, it means He already knows the ball that Alex will choose even before He chose it, right? So if Alex chooses the black ball, it means God already knows he will choose the black ball meaning that Alex would not have chosen the Red ball, would he? If indeed Alex chose the red ball, it would mean God is not omniscient but since God Is omniscient, there is just no way Alex would have chosen the Red ball. If there is no way Alex would have chosen the red ball, it means there was no free-will given to Alex.
The two concepts – (i) Omniscience and (ii) human freedom – seem to be utterly incompatible. The challenge, then, is to find a way to show that either
(1) omniscience does not exist; or
(2) free will does not exist; or
(3) the alleged illogical relation between omniscience and the exercise of free will is mistaken (i.e. omniscience is not incompatible with the exercise of free will).

This has been the problems that bible scholars have faced over the ages.

Hello KDK,

I have followed the string of conversations with strict interest. Two questions

1. Why dont u want the young xtains to know the deep things of xtainity, at least God said that my people perish for lack of knowledge. Please lets know these things so that we can rightly divide the word

2. The Omniscience stuff, Does God know who is going to hell and whose not.?

@ugonna,
If you'd read an earlier post of mine, you'd have seen where i stated categorically that there are several passages to support free-will just as well as there are several passages to support omniscience of God. So I am not arguing with you. i am only asking you to choose one. Either God is omniscient or Man has free will because you can't believe in the two since they seem to contradict ( read my last reply to K2).

@ Basisqo,
Sir, it is not that I am hiding the deep things from them. It is just that bible advises that we don't feed babies with meat but rather with milk till they are old enough to take meat. Some of the readers may not be mature enough (spiritually) for the deeper things. With time , God will surely show them these things.
I will answer your question later because the answer to your question is the answer to this discussion but for now we will just rub minds. Thank you sir and God bless you

KDK, Does it mean that u also believe that God is Omniscient and that Man has free will

Someone asked that if God is omniscient, then he knows prople that will go to hell, abi? Pls tell e why we should strive to live a good christian life sincce God who is all knowing has already predestined the pple who will perish in hell fire

If i should be allowed to say somethin here

If u say Gos is not Omniscient, then He is NOT God

If u say man has no free-will, then i think its not logical, because it would be unfair on the part of God to create humans who he will be "tossing around anyhow"

I started this topic, because i have been pondering over this issue for a long time, and KDK, i think i have become more confused than ever. Why not u invite pastor reagan once more, and the two of you should throw more light on this, i will go and do some research and will come back on monday, if i find any result that may interest us. And pls as we are responding, pls lets have it in my mind that we have baby xtians like myself , we have moslems and atheist who are strictly following this topic, so ours answers shouldnt lead anyone astray. This is just my "small advise"

Dumb question

If we are doing sinfull things yeah God knows what direction we are heading for but he still give us time to repent (heading for heaven).
Yeah he knows everything .