Teekrayne:
......... My view differs from the view of you both! I want to believe that just like other prophets who have come before and after Jesus are Messenger/servants of God, Jesus is also a Messenger/servant of God..... For elucidation purpose, read (Matt 12 vs 18)

That verse still did not render Yahshua ha'mashiakh ben Elohim (Jesus the Messiah Son of God) fatherless does it?

Your housemaid/househelp is still someone's daughter/son/child, if you decide to send your son in place of your servants on a confidential errand it still does not make your son anything other than your son even as he assume a place of servant/messenger.

Without much ado, these verses are from the same book you quoted up there

Matt. 3:17 "17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Matt. 17:5 "5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

malvisguy212:
did I say God is more than one ? The our and us indicate his personalities and the image indicate ONE essence. If God is 3 the verse should have say" images" the quran used plurality to adress Allah but never give reason.

...... What verse of the Quran used plurality for Allah?

Teekrayne:
...... What verse of the Quran used plurality for Allah?

are you a muslim?

Teekrayne:
....... Allah! ....... That's not what my scripture teaches.... I can't force you to accept, neither can you. So, its better we just leave it as it were. Thanks alot

You can do better than that, in hebrew 'God' is 'Elohim' in Arabic Elohim is 'Allah' in English 'Allah' is 'God'..simply title for referring to supreme beings in different languages right?

E.g You are a 'Human being' and there are several other Humans, but how do we identify you alone? Then we call you by your name 'Teekrayne'

Apply that example in the God analogy. So for the very last time what is the name of your own God?

Teekrayne:
.... Sir, satan(Iblis) was an angel before he disobeyed God when God asked him to prostrate to Adam. He wasnt/isnt God!

Sir, me and you have our own line of discussion on these thread, let's not derail that line . If you want to discuss about Satan, let's use our private line of discussion. The question is meant for Anas

Pls note, you can discuss with anyone else on anything I said, but let's keep our two way discussion the way it is, just two way , no third party distractions .

mahdino:


@ Teekrayne and dolphineheart.
I followed your discussion, very interesting. I suggest we arrange for a meeting because some of the questions and answers will be too long to post, so if we can meet please. Thank you.
My No. 07036065077

Sorry Bro, due to reasons beyond my control, I can not have a meeting with you right now. But we can communicate privately through email

Teekrayne:
......... Let me pause here and allow you to ask your question...

I've asked the questions earlier Bro, it relates to Mary . U said you will do research and get back to me on it .

malvisguy212:
are you a jehovah witness ?

Based on my post, I believe you have ur own views which are different from mine, discussing those views are more important than organizational affliations Bro. I dnt see how answering ur question will add to the discussion of such different views

dolphinheart:


I've asked the questions earlier Bro, it relates to Mary . U said you will do research and get back to me on it .

...... I have not come across any, that's why I have not said anything as regards the question.

malvisguy212:
are you a muslim?

........ Yes I am!

Maamin:


You can do better than that, in hebrew 'God' is 'Elohim' in Arabic Elohim is 'Allah' in English 'Allah' is 'God'..simply title for referring to supreme beings in different languages right?

E.g You are a 'Human being' and there are several other Humans, but how do we identify you alone? Then we call you by your name 'Teekrayne'

Apply that example in the God analogy. So for the very last time what is the name of your own God?

..... That was why I started my last statement with Allah! The name of my God is Allah..

dolphinheart:


Sir, me and you have our own line of discussion on these thread, let's not derail that line . If you want to discuss about Satan, let's use our private line of discussion. The question is meant for Anas

Pls note, you can discuss with anyone else on anything I said, but let's keep our two way discussion the way it is, just two way , no third party distractions .

..... That's true! I totally agree. Was just trying to extend a helping hand. I'll abide by the rule! No third party interference. I have not come across an answer to your question sir. So, its better I keep mute than to say what would tarnish the image of my religion. Thanks a lot.

Teekrayne:
...... I have not come across any, that's why I have not said anything as regards the question.

Ok, ill live those sets of questions for now, but for later references, ill call them "Q1".

Now my next set of questions relates to hagar, abraham , ishmeal and the process/ritual of walking/ running between the two mountains.

On ishmeal
(1) it is said that the child abraham wanted to sacrifice was not Isaac but ishmeal, following such beliefs,what is the age range of ishmeal or anyone related to the sacrifice when he was to be sacrificed?.
(2)did you have prove that mentions the name of ishmeal in relation to that particular sacrifice by abraham ?
(3) where did this sacrifice occur?
(4)what's the age difference between Isaac and ishmeal.
(5)is ishmeal the progenitor of the Arab race or he became part of the arab people and learnt their language? .

On hagar
(6) why did hagar leave the place where abraham resided?.
(7)did the sacrifice occur before or after hagar left (pls add proof)
( did hagar leave for mecca before or after Isaacs birth.

On abraham
(9) is there any evidence that signified that abraham performed the ritual of moving between the mountains like hagar did?

On the two mountains
(10)some said that the two mountains in mecca are the symbols of allah, what is/are the symbols of allah
(11) why are those two mountains symbols of allah
(12)when did they become symbols of allah.

Pls note, it is not compulsory for you to answer all the questions. The questions are asked in the same post cus they are interrelated, hence the Need to bring them all up at once. Pls take any time u want to reply .

Teekrayne:
........ Yes I am!

when last did you read the quran?

Surah 21:91: “And (remember) her
who guarded her chastity: WE
breathed into her of OUR spirit, and
We made her and her son a sign for
all peoples.” (Yusuf Ali)

Teekrayne:
..... That was why I started my last statement with Allah! The name of my God is Allah..

Allah is an arabic word for God not a name. Notify me when you find this name of your God. Thank you!

Maamin:


Allah is an arabic word for God not a name. Notify me when you find this name of your God. Thank you!

........ I have answered you. There is nothing more to it.

dolphinheart:


Ok, ill live those sets of questions for now, but for later references, ill call them "Q1".

Now my next set of questions relates to hagar, abraham , ishmeal and the process/ritual of walking/ running between the two mountains.

On ishmeal
(1) it is said that the child abraham wanted to sacrifice was not Isaac but ishmeal, following such beliefs,what is the age range of ishmeal or anyone related to the sacrifice when he was to be sacrificed?.
(2)did you have prove that mentions the name of ishmeal in relation to that particular sacrifice by abraham ?
(3) where did this sacrifice occur?
(4)what's the age difference between Isaac and ishmeal.
(5)is ishmeal the progenitor of the Arab race or he became part of the arab people and learnt their language? .

On hagar
(6) why did hagar leave the place where abraham resided?.
(7)did the sacrifice occur before or after hagar left (pls add proof)
( did hagar leave for mecca before or after Isaacs birth.

On abraham
(9) is there any evidence that signified that abraham performed the ritual of moving between the mountains like hagar did?

On the two mountains
(10)some said that the two mountains in mecca are the symbols of allah, what is/are the symbols of allah
(11) why are those two mountains symbols of allah
(12)when did they become symbols of allah.

Pls note, it is not compulsory for you to answer all the questions. The questions are asked in the same post cus they are interrelated, hence the Need to bring them all up at once. Pls take any time u want to reply .

........ Dearly beloved brother, I am honoured to have been doing this with you! Your questions are highly appreciated; but then, I am as busy as a bee to be honestly honest. Furthermore, bear in mind that a well detailed and a comprehensive researched embarked upon by a sincere individual cannot be relatively accomplished in a day, let a lone a week if truly you want your work to be seriously appreciated in the midst of the erudites! Hence, I want you sir, to kindly try as much as you can to reduce the number of questions you ask. If possible, one for each other........ 12 questions is a NO for me! I have other things to do. If not for the clause you decided to include at the end of your question, I would have left the questions. However, I was able to squeeze out my time to get a solution to some of your questions!....... It is well known to Muslims, Christians and Jews that Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son and he was willing to do so but God gave him a sheep to sacrifice instead of his cherished progeny. So far, everybody agrees. However, Jews and Christians say that the sacrificed was Isaac -"Abraham's only son", whereas according to the Islamic tradition the sacrificed is Ishmael. The opposition between the two versions has not bothered any side that much because in the common mind "what we think is certainly right and those who think differently are necessarily wrong"....... The first argument put forward by those who support the "Isaac-theory" is that, in the Qur'ân, the name associated to glad tidings is Isaac while Ishmael's name was never associated to good news or glad tidings. They quote the Qur'an.

"And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a Prophet - one of the righteous."
They also quote....

"They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge."

Some points have to be made clear in this concern:

It is well known that Abraham got his first child in his old days (more than 80 years old). By all means, when he was given the news of his first son, Ishmael, the news were great and not only good. It seems reasonable to think that the news of having his second son, Isaac would be equal or less because in the first time the surprise factor has certainly increased his happiness.
More to the point, using the same argument as the opposition, one can safely say that the sacrificed was described as forbearing and steadfast in the Qur'ân and if we search the whole Qur'ân we will find the name of Ishmael associated to patience and steadfastness and not Isaac!.......... The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Quraysh tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn Abd al-Azîz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj...................................................................................The Oxford Companion To The Bible echoes the same position as the Encyclopaedia Judaica.

In Muslim tradition, the Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham through Ishmael. Because Ishmael was circumcised (Gen. 17:25), so are most Muslims. And, analogous to Paul's reversal of the figures of Isaac and Ishmael (Gal. 4:24-26), Muslim tradition makes Ishmael rather than Isaac the son Abraham was commanded to sacrifice............ Does it answer some of them?

malvisguy212:
when last did you read the quran?

Surah 21:91: “And (remember) her
who guarded her chastity: WE
breathed into her of OUR spirit, and
We made her and her son a sign for
all peoples.” (Yusuf Ali)

......... A sound knowledge of arabic language is a necessary and sufficient condition for you to interpret any content of the Qur'an. The use of "we" or "us" does not imply plurality, but a form of respect! .......... The Qur’an says very clearly that there is only One God, Allah. “There is no god but Allah” is the basic principle of Islam. There is no ambiguity about this fact in the Qur’an and there are hundreds of ayat or verses of the Qur’an that make this point very clear. Belief in more than one God is Shirk (polytheism) and a major sin according to the Qur’an.

Whenever in the Qur’an Allah is mentioned in the third person there are always singular pronouns used, such as He, him (Huwa or Hu). Whenever Allah is spoken to in the second person there are also singular pronouns, such as Thou, Thine and Thee (Anta, Ka). However only in the first person some times the pronouns I, My or Mine (Ana, Iyaya, ya) are used and sometimes We, Us and Our (Nahnu, Na) are used.

This is a style of speech. Sometime the speaker says "I" and sometime says "WE". We also use that in our conversations. In the Qur’an you will see that often the first person singular such as I or MY is used, when Allah speaks about His love, care and closeness and forgiveness for His servants. In a similar way the first person plural is often used when Allah speaks about His power, majesty, glory, great deeds or when He speaks about His anger and wrath for the sinners and criminals. (This is, of course, the general use. Sometime the reverse is also the case, depending on the context of the Surah.)...... Take it or leave it. Am not arguing with you!

Teekrayne:
........ I have answered you. There is nothing more to it.

Ok! Just like I thought

Shalom Aleikhem!

Maamin:

Ok! Just like I thought
Shalom Aleikhem!

......... Thanks a bunch sir

Teekrayne:
........ Dearly beloved brother, I am honoured to have been doing this with you! Your questions are highly appreciated; but then, I am as busy as a bee to be honestly honest. Furthermore, bear in mind that a well detailed and a comprehensive researched embarked upon by a sincere individual cannot be relatively accomplished in a day, let a lone a week if truly you want your work to be seriously appreciated in the midst of the erudites! Hence, I want you sir, to kindly try as much as you can to reduce the number of questions you ask. If possible, one for each other........ 12 questions is a NO for me! I have other things to do. If not for the clause you decided to include at the end of your question, I would have left the questions. However, I was able to squeeze out my time to get a solution to some of your questions!....... It is well known to Muslims, Christians and Jews that Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son and he was willing to do so but God gave him a sheep to sacrifice instead of his cherished progeny. So far, everybody agrees. However, Jews and Christians say that the sacrificed was Isaac -"Abraham's only son", whereas according to the Islamic tradition the sacrificed is Ishmael. The opposition between the two versions has not bothered any side that much because in the common mind "what we think is certainly right and those who think differently are necessarily wrong"....... The first argument put forward by those who support the "Isaac-theory" is that, in the Qur'ân, the name associated to glad tidings is Isaac while Ishmael's name was never associated to good news or glad tidings. They quote the Qur'an.

"And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a Prophet - one of the righteous."
They also quote....

"They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge."

Some points have to be made clear in this concern:

It is well known that Abraham got his first child in his old days (more than 80 years old). By all means, when he was given the news of his first son, Ishmael, the news were great and not only good. It seems reasonable to think that the news of having his second son, Isaac would be equal or less because in the first time the surprise factor has certainly increased his happiness.
More to the point, using the same argument as the opposition, one can safely say that the sacrificed was described as forbearing and steadfast in the Qur'ân and if we search the whole Qur'ân we will find the name of Ishmael associated to patience and steadfastness and not Isaac!.......... The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Quraysh tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn Abd al-Azîz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj...................................................................................The Oxford Companion To The Bible echoes the same position as the Encyclopaedia Judaica.

In Muslim tradition, the Arabs trace their ancestry back to Abraham through Ishmael. Because Ishmael was circumcised (Gen. 17:25), so are most Muslims. And, analogous to Paul's reversal of the figures of Isaac and Ishmael (Gal. 4:24-26), Muslim tradition makes Ishmael rather than Isaac the son Abraham was commanded to sacrifice............ Does it answer some of them?

Bro, as you can see, I did ask the question in a numbered format. The reason for the numbers is to seperate and identify each question. I was expecting you to do the same , that is , to number ur reply so that we know which particular question you answered, I hope u get my point. Cus at the moment I do not know or agree that you have answered any question unless you put the numbers indicating which question you answered.

On the issue of too many questions. like I said before, these questions are interrelated and most answers can(hopefully) be found in the same place, hence the possibilty of asking so many questions at once.

On ur reply above.
I will not accept it for the following reasons .
1. The Answers where not numbered and I and other readers might not know which questions you answered and which one you did not. This will only end up in confusion.
2. I wanted answers based on ur beliefs, books and Scriptures. I did not use any other book than the bible when I answered ur questions. I believe you belief that ur religious books and scriptures are equipted enough to answer my questions without recourse to other religious books and scriptures. Hence the questions should be answered from books and scriptures ur religion hold in reverence pls.

3. We are not debating who is right and who is wrong concerning some of the events that happened to Abrahams family. My questions are to find out more about ur beliefs.

So pls you have to re-answer the questions . Just answer like you answer questions during an examination so that the examiner will know which answer answers which question . Eg "answer 1 " answers "question 1".
Its not compulsory to answer all at once.

dolphinheart:


Bro, as you can see, I did ask the question in a numbered format. The reason for the numbers is to seperate and identify each question. I was expecting you to do the same , that is , to number ur reply so that we know which particular question you answered, I hope u get my point. Cus at the moment I do not know or agree that you have answered any question unless you put the numbers indicating which question you answered.

On the issue of too many questions. like I said before, these questions are interrelated and most answers can(hopefully) be found in the same place, hence the possibilty of asking so many questions at once.

On ur reply above.
I will not accept it for the following reasons .
1. The Answers where not numbered and I and other readers might not know which questions you answered and which one you did not. This will only end up in confusion.
2. I wanted answers based on ur beliefs, books and Scriptures. I did not use any other book than the bible when I answered ur questions. I believe you belief that ur religious books and scriptures are equipted enough to answer my questions without recourse to other religious books and scriptures. Hence the questions should be answered from books and scriptures ur religion hold in reverence pls.

3. We are not debating who is right and who is wrong concerning some of the events that happened to Abrahams family. My questions are to find out more about ur beliefs.

So pls you have to re-answer the questions . Just answer like you answer questions during an examination so that the examiner will know which answer answers which question . Eg "answer 1 " answers "question 1".
Its not compulsory to answer all at once.

....... Awwwww! That's thoughtful of you bro! But then, that I forgot to number my reply does not justify the fact that I have not answered you/that you'll not accept what I gave! I perfectly understand where you are coming from; am sure its for clarity purpose. Just do me a favour, re-read up again. What I gave is the answer to most questions of the first "batch" of questions you asked! I.e question 1 and co! Observe as well that the way I reply you is drastically going down. I have been very busy honestly. You don't want to know where I am right now while replying you! If you hear it, you'll give me your sister for a wife...... #tongueout.

@ Teekrayne

I believe this reply will show you that I indeed did read ur post.

My post will first contain my questions, then ill add ur reply . Included in my post of ur reply will be my views in brackets.

My qustions where:
(1) it is said that the child
abraham wanted to sacrifice
was not Isaac but ishmeal,
following such beliefs,what is
the age range of ishmeal or
anyone related to the sacrifice
when he was to be
sacrificed?.
(2)do you have prove that
mentions the name of ishmeal
in relation to that particular
sacrifice by abraham ?
(3) where did this sacrifice
occur?
(4)what's the age difference
between Isaac and ishmeal.
(5)is ishmeal the progenitor of
the Arab race or he became
part of the arab people and
learnt their language? .
(6) why did hagar leave the
place where abraham
resided?.
(7)did the sacrifice occur
before or after hagar left (pls
add proof)
( did hagar leave for mecca
before or after Isaacs birth.

(9) is there any evidence that
signified that abraham
performed the ritual of moving
between the mountains like
hagar did?
(10)some said that the two
mountains in mecca are the
symbols of Allah, what is/are
the symbols of Allah
(11) why are those two
mountains symbols of Allah
(12)when did they become
symbols of Allah.




(Ur reply with my views on it.)


........ Dearly beloved brother, I
am honoured to have been
doing this with you! Your
questions are highly
appreciated; but then, I am as
busy as a bee to be honestly
honest.


Me I understand Bro, that's why I said you can take ur time to reply when you are less busy Furthermore, bear in mind that it is not compulsory to answer all at once, you can even answer one question a week if its ok with you)



........mind that a well detailed and a
comprehensive researched
embarked upon by a sincere
individual cannot be relatively
accomplished in a day, let a
lone a week if truly you want
your work to be seriously
appreciated in the midst of the
erudites! Hence, I want you
sir, to kindly try as much as
you can to reduce the number
of questions you ask. If
possible, one for each
other........ 12 questions is a
NO for me! I have other things
to do. If not for the clause you
decided to include at the end
of your question, I would have
left the questions. However, I was able to squeeze out my
time to get a solution to some
of your questions!.......



Methanks, but my view on how and when you answer is same as above , you can take all the time u need)



......is It is well known to Muslims, Christians and Jews that........

cuts in the answers must be devoid of any other religious source other than ur religion, u answers must be strickly based on ur scriptures and books u believe in as totally and completely aunthentic)



....... Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son and he was willing to do so but God gave him a sheep to sacrifice instead of his cherished progeny. So far, everybody agrees..........



Me I agree, though thought it was a ram )



....... However, Jews and Christians say that the sacrificed was Isaac
-"Abraham's only son",
whereas according to the
Islamic tradition the sacrificed
is Ishmael. The opposition
between the two versions has
not bothered any side that
much because in the common
mind "what we think is
certainly right and those who
think differently are
necessarily wrong"....... The
first argument put forward by
those who support the "Isaac-
theory" is that, in the Qur'ân,
the name associated to glad
tidings is Isaac while
Ishmael's name was never
associated to good news or
glad tidings. They quote the
Qur'an.
"And We gave him the good
news of Isaac - a Prophet -
one of the righteous."
They also quote....
"They said, "Fear not," and
they gave him glad tidings of a
son endowed with
knowledge."
Some points have to be made
clear in this concern:.........



Me: (the above is not accepted, dnt want "other" religion discussion, view or argument , just want to hear ur own answers devoid of other religions view or arguments)



.........It is well known that Abraham got his first child in his old days (more than 80 years old).........

Medo you have prove on this statement?)



...... By all means, when he was given the news of his first son, Ishmael,......

Me cuts in: ( do you have prove that the name of his first born will be called ishmeal prior to the first borns birth?)



...........the news were great and not only good. It seems reasonable to think that the news of having his second son, Isaac would be equal or less because in the first time the surprise factor has certainly increased his happiness.
More to the point, using the
same argument as the
opposition, one can safely say
that the sacrificed was
described as forbearing and
steadfast in the Qur'ân and if
we search the whole Qur'ân
we will find the name of
Ishmael associated to
patience and steadfastness
and not Isaac!..........



Meare you saying that in reference to my question 2, that your religion believes that the child to be sacrificed is ishmeal, cus the name ishmeal is associated with steadfastness and patience? And this thus now proves that ishmeal is the first born ? To now prove that ishmeal as the first born is the one to be sacrificed ?
Are you saying that their is no straight , precise, non derived statement that mentions "ishmeal" with the sacrifice as asked in question 2 ?
(2)did you have prove that
MENTIONS THE NAME of ishmeal in relation to that particular sacrifice by abraham ?)



.......The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:..........

Me no other source pls)



........In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad
identified the son who was to
be sacrificed as Ishmael and,
indeed, the opinion of the
traditionalists were also
divided on this subject. It is
related that a renowned
traditionalist of Jewish origin,
from the Quraysh tribe, and
another Jewish scholar, who
converted to Islam, told that
Caliph Omar Ibn Abd al-Azîz
(717-20) that the Jews were
well informed that Ismail was
the one who was bound, but
that they concealed this out of
jealousy.


Me I read the passage of the quran, those verses did not mention ishmeal talk less of saying he was the one to be sacrificed, it did not even mention firstborn. Some can try to deduce that the passages where trying to talk about the firstborn, but the lack or presence of concise, precise statement on this historical event and its paticipants is what I'm after.)




.....The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail.
After Abraham drove her and
her son out...........


Cuts in why was she driven out? It is part of my question 6,)



........ she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At
that time the waters of the
spring Zemzem began to flow.
Her acts became the basis for
the hallowed custom of
Muslims during the
Hajj......


Me so do they perform this acts because hajar did it?)



..........................................
Oxford Companion To The
Bible echoes the same
position as the Encyclopaedia
Judaica.
In Muslim tradition, the Arabs
trace their ancestry back to
Abraham through Ishmael.
Because Ishmael was
circumcised (Gen. 17:25), so
are most Muslims. And,
analogous to Paul's reversal
of the figures of Isaac and
Ishmael (Gal. 4:24-26),
Muslim tradition makes
Ishmael rather than Isaac the
son Abraham was
commanded to
sacrifice............


Mewunt accept any other citation than citation you believe ur religion accepts its source as completely accurate, for example unless you accept the bible as completely accurate and true ,I would not accept you citing verses from it.
U did not also give prove that muslims or Arabs where circumscised because ishmeal was?)

End of analysis.



I'll prefer you not to reply this post as it might affect our question and answer process. This post was made to show you that I read ur posts and I did not find the answers There. but you can reply if you feel there are some points you want to address. If you do, u can merge it with ur answers to my questions (in the format it was asked o).

As for my sister, she no dey look person work o!. She fit yab me if I make such suggestion. But if you work on a rig in the northern sea, I might tell her about your work. Tkia Bro.

dolphinheart:
@ Teekrayne

I believe this reply will show you that I indeed did read ur post.

My post will first contain my questions, then ill add ur reply . Included in my post of ur reply will be my views in brackets.

My qustions where:
(1) it is said that the child
abraham wanted to sacrifice
was not Isaac but ishmeal,
following such beliefs,what is
the age range of ishmeal or
anyone related to the sacrifice
when he was to be
sacrificed?.
(2)do you have prove that
mentions the name of ishmeal
in relation to that particular
sacrifice by abraham ?
(3) where did this sacrifice
occur?
(4)what's the age difference
between Isaac and ishmeal.
(5)is ishmeal the progenitor of
the Arab race or he became
part of the arab people and
learnt their language? .
(6) why did hagar leave the
place where abraham
resided?.
(7)did the sacrifice occur
before or after hagar left (pls
add proof)
( did hagar leave for mecca
before or after Isaacs birth.

(9) is there any evidence that
signified that abraham
performed the ritual of moving
between the mountains like
hagar did?
(10)some said that the two
mountains in mecca are the
symbols of Allah, what is/are
the symbols of Allah
(11) why are those two
mountains symbols of Allah
(12)when did they become
symbols of Allah.




(Ur reply with my views on it.)


........ Dearly beloved brother, I
am honoured to have been
doing this with you! Your
questions are highly
appreciated; but then, I am as
busy as a bee to be honestly
honest.


Me I understand Bro, that's why I said you can take ur time to reply when you are less busy Furthermore, bear in mind that it is not compulsory to answer all at once, you can even answer one question a week if its ok with you)



........mind that a well detailed and a
comprehensive researched
embarked upon by a sincere
individual cannot be relatively
accomplished in a day, let a
lone a week if truly you want
your work to be seriously
appreciated in the midst of the
erudites! Hence, I want you
sir, to kindly try as much as
you can to reduce the number
of questions you ask. If
possible, one for each
other........ 12 questions is a
NO for me! I have other things
to do. If not for the clause you
decided to include at the end
of your question, I would have
left the questions. However, I was able to squeeze out my
time to get a solution to some
of your questions!.......



Methanks, but my view on how and when you answer is same as above , you can take all the time u need)



......is It is well known to Muslims, Christians and Jews that........

cuts in the answers must be devoid of any other religious source other than ur religion, u answers must be strickly based on ur scriptures and books u believe in as totally and completely aunthentic)



....... Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son and he was willing to do so but God gave him a sheep to sacrifice instead of his cherished progeny. So far, everybody agrees..........



Me I agree, though thought it was a ram )



....... However, Jews and Christians say that the sacrificed was Isaac
-"Abraham's only son",
whereas according to the
Islamic tradition the sacrificed
is Ishmael. The opposition
between the two versions has
not bothered any side that
much because in the common
mind "what we think is
certainly right and those who
think differently are
necessarily wrong"....... The
first argument put forward by
those who support the "Isaac-
theory" is that, in the Qur'ân,
the name associated to glad
tidings is Isaac while
Ishmael's name was never
associated to good news or
glad tidings. They quote the
Qur'an.
"And We gave him the good
news of Isaac - a Prophet -
one of the righteous."
They also quote....
"They said, "Fear not," and
they gave him glad tidings of a
son endowed with
knowledge."
Some points have to be made
clear in this concern:.........



Me: (the above is not accepted, dnt want "other" religion discussion, view or argument , just want to hear ur own answers devoid of other religions view or arguments)



.........It is well known that Abraham got his first child in his old days (more than 80 years old).........

Medo you have prove on this statement?)



...... By all means, when he was given the news of his first son, Ishmael,......

Me cuts in: ( do you have prove that the name of his first born will be called ishmeal prior to the first borns birth?)



...........the news were great and not only good. It seems reasonable to think that the news of having his second son, Isaac would be equal or less because in the first time the surprise factor has certainly increased his happiness.
More to the point, using the
same argument as the
opposition, one can safely say
that the sacrificed was
described as forbearing and
steadfast in the Qur'ân and if
we search the whole Qur'ân
we will find the name of
Ishmael associated to
patience and steadfastness
and not Isaac!..........



Meare you saying that in reference to my question 2, that your religion believes that the child to be sacrificed is ishmeal, cus the name ishmeal is associated with steadfastness and patience? And this thus now proves that ishmeal is the first born ? To now prove that ishmeal as the first born is the one to be sacrificed ?
Are you saying that their is no straight , precise, non derived statement that mentions "ishmeal" with the sacrifice as asked in question 2 ?
(2)did you have prove that
MENTIONS THE NAME of ishmeal in relation to that particular sacrifice by abraham ?)



.......The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:..........

Me no other source pls)



........In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad
identified the son who was to
be sacrificed as Ishmael and,
indeed, the opinion of the
traditionalists were also
divided on this subject. It is
related that a renowned
traditionalist of Jewish origin,
from the Quraysh tribe, and
another Jewish scholar, who
converted to Islam, told that
Caliph Omar Ibn Abd al-Azîz
(717-20) that the Jews were
well informed that Ismail was
the one who was bound, but
that they concealed this out of
jealousy.


Me I read the passage of the quran, those verses did not mention ishmeal talk less of saying he was the one to be sacrificed, it did not even mention firstborn. Some can try to deduce that the passages where trying to talk about the firstborn, but the lack or presence of concise, precise statement on this historical event and its paticipants is what I'm after.)




.....The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail.
After Abraham drove her and
her son out...........


Cuts in why was she driven out? It is part of my question 6,)



........ she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At
that time the waters of the
spring Zemzem began to flow.
Her acts became the basis for
the hallowed custom of
Muslims during the
Hajj......


Me so do they perform this acts because hajar did it?)



..........................................
Oxford Companion To The
Bible echoes the same
position as the Encyclopaedia
Judaica.
In Muslim tradition, the Arabs
trace their ancestry back to
Abraham through Ishmael.
Because Ishmael was
circumcised (Gen. 17:25), so
are most Muslims. And,
analogous to Paul's reversal
of the figures of Isaac and
Ishmael (Gal. 4:24-26),
Muslim tradition makes
Ishmael rather than Isaac the
son Abraham was
commanded to
sacrifice............


Mewunt accept any other citation than citation you believe ur religion accepts its source as completely accurate, for example unless you accept the bible as completely accurate and true ,I would not accept you citing verses from it.
U did not also give prove that muslims or Arabs where circumscised because ishmeal was?)

End of analysis.



I'll prefer you not to reply this post as it might affect our question and answer process. This post was made to show you that I read ur posts and I did not find the answers There. but you can reply if you feel there are some points you want to address. If you do, u can merge it with ur answers to my questions (in the format it was asked o).

As for my sister, she no dey look person work o!. She fit yab me if I make such suggestion. But if you work on a rig in the northern sea, I might tell her about your work. Tkia Bro.

............. A very good analysis........ Below are the answers...........

1..... Ishmael was 13......

2..... Quran 37 vs 102-111......

3...... Mina......

4..... Isaac was 14 years younger than Ishmael......

5..... All sides agree that Ishmael and Isaac were brothers. They further agree that Ishmael is the father of all Arabs and that Isaac is the father of all Jews. Thus, the three great religions agree that the Arabs and the Jews are brothers; a point often overlooked by those who have not studied these religions..........

6..... Sarah did not have any child of her own. She began to feel uncomfortable in living with Hajar (Hagar) and her son Isma'il (Ishmael).

One day Sarah told Ibrahim (Abraham) that she did not want to live with Hajar (Hagar) and her son Isma'il (Ishmael) any more.
Allah (God) commanded Ibrahim(Abraham) to take Hajar (Hagar) and Isma'il(Ishmael) to a far away place.
After a long journey, they arrived at the valley of Makkah in Arabia. That was a very hostile place and the valley was completely barren. The valley of Makkah was on the route of caravans that traveled between Sham (Syria) and Yaman (Yemen), but did not stop there because there was no water or vegetation in that area. No one lived there because the area was inhabitable.........

7....... The sacrifice occurred after Hajar(Hagar)left...

8.... Obviously, Hagar left for Mecca before Isaac's birth................ That is how far I can go for now!

Teekrayne:
............. A very good analysis........ Below are the answers...........

1..... Ishmael was 13......

2..... Quran 37 vs 102-111......

3...... Mina......

4..... Isaac was 14 years younger than Ishmael......

5..... All sides agree that Ishmael and Isaac were brothers. They further agree that Ishmael is the father of all Arabs and that Isaac is the father of all Jews. Thus, the three great religions agree that the Arabs and the Jews are brothers; a point often overlooked by those who have not studied these religions..........

6..... Sarah did not have any child of her own. She began to feel uncomfortable in living with Hajar (Hagar) and her son Isma'il (Ishmael).

One day Sarah told Ibrahim (Abraham) that she did not want to live with Hajar (Hagar) and her son Isma'il (Ishmael) any more.
Allah (God) commanded Ibrahim(Abraham) to take Hajar (Hagar) and Isma'il(Ishmael) to a far away place.
After a long journey, they arrived at the valley of Makkah in Arabia. That was a very hostile place and the valley was completely barren. The valley of Makkah was on the route of caravans that traveled between Sham (Syria) and Yaman (Yemen), but did not stop there because there was no water or vegetation in that area. No one lived there because the area was inhabitable.........

7....... The sacrifice occurred after Hajar(Hagar)left...

8.... Obviously, Hagar left for Mecca before Isaac's birth................ That is how far I can go for now!

On Question 1: can you pls add proves to support that statement? Just in case I'm being asked to prove it.


On question 2: the name "ishmeal is not mentioned in those verses Bro, note the question I asked is on the mention of the name in relation to the sacrifice.

On question 3:
Can you add proof that it took place in mina?


On question 4: can you add prove that ishmael is 14 years older than Isaac from ur religious scriptures?

On question 5: like I've been saying , I dnt want views from all sides, I just want views from ur side supported by books or scriptures ur sides belief as totally accurate.
The question has to do with progeny, for example , I believe and have proof to say that all legitimate(biological)isrealite came through the loins of Jacob. Now can all Arabs do the same for ishmeal? How did ishmeal come to speak arabic? Was he taught by someone? If he was taught by someone, can we say or not say that those people two taught him are Arabs too?if those people are Arabs, then can we say that there are Arabs who did not come from abraham loins at that time? .
Pls add proof to question 5.

On question 6: what is/are the source(s) of these story ?

On question 7: can you add proof to show that the verses occured after hagar left? E.g when abraham came back to perform the sacrifice, an event mentioned before or after the sacrificise, to give us a clue as to the time the sacrifise occured.

Question 8: can you add proof to help us understand that hagar left before Isaacs birth?.

malvisguy212:
Jesus has two nature, he is fully God and Fully man. Its was God himself who possessed the body of Jesus, God did not override his freewill. Christ is a man, but this man was born without the consort of a woman, even the quran aknowleged satan touch ALL human from birth with the EXCEPTION of Jesus. So the points is, since christ the man is sinless, God dwell in his flesh.

God dwell in his ( Jesus) flesh abi ? Imagine that statement God dwell in the flesh of another person , Jesus .

Bro , since God is dwelling on earth , who is God praying to ? .. Another God ?

dolphinheart:



On Question 1: can you pls add proves to support that statement? Just in case I'm being asked to prove it.


On question 2: the name "ishmeal is not mentioned in those verses Bro, note the question I asked is on the mention of the name in relation to the sacrifice.

On question 3:
Can you add proof that it took place in mina?


On question 4: can you add prove that ishmael is 14 years older than Isaac from ur religious scriptures?

On question 5: like I've been saying , I dnt want views from all sides, I just want views from ur side supported by books or scriptures ur sides belief as totally accurate.
The question has to do with progeny, for example , I believe and have proof to say that all legitimate(biological)isrealite came through the loins of Jacob. Now can all Arabs do the same for ishmeal? How did ishmeal come to speak arabic? Was he taught by someone? If he was taught by someone, can we say or not say that those people two taught him are Arabs too?if those people are Arabs, then can we say that there are Arabs who did not come from abraham loins at that time? .
Pls add proof to question 5.

On question 6: what is/are the source(s) of these story ?

On question 7: can you add proof to show that the verses occured after hagar left? E.g when abraham came back to perform the sacrifice, an event mentioned before or after the sacrificise, to give us a clue as to the time the sacrifise occured.

Question 8: can you add proof to help us understand that hagar left before Isaacs birth?.

........... Isaac was 14 years younger than Ishmael. When Abraham took his son to be sacrificed, that son appears to have been about 13. God several times refers to Abraham's son as his "only son."..... Did God make a mistake?? Did God not know that Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac?

Obviously, God did not make a mistake. What really happened was that Isaac was not born yet. Ishmael, at age 13, was Abraham's only son. Isaac was born one year later...... Well, I am still a student and not a scholar! You asked me to answer you and I did based on my little understanding! Asking me to add proof here and there would expose my inexperience, even though I am truly a tyro. You could still meet those who are more knowledgeable than @Teekraye, they'll put you through. I can't go beyond this. Better still, let me say I can't say what I don't know..... However, bear in mind that some of these stories were logically arrived at, some mentioned in the Quran and some were mentioned in the Hadith of prophet Muhammad(SAW)...... NB: I am not saying that all I have said so far on this forum is wrong oooo. Every one who is more knowledgeable than I will tell you the same...... Is it time for me to ask my question Have I tried enough

Jozzy4:


God dwell in his ( Jesus) flesh abi ? Imagine that statement God dwell in the flesh of another person , Jesus .

Bro , since God is dwelling on earth , who is God praying to ? .. Another God ?

God did not pray , it was the human nature of Jesus 'pray' .God did not impose His will on the human nature of Jesus.

Teekrayne:
........... Isaac was 14 years younger than Ishmael. When Abraham took his son to be sacrificed, that son appears to have been about 13. God several times refers to Abraham's son as his "only son."..... Did God make a mistake?? Did God not know that Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac?

Obviously, God did not make a mistake. What really happened was that Isaac was not born yet. Ishmael, at age 13, was Abraham's only son. Isaac was born one year later...... Well, I am still a student and not a scholar! You asked me to answer you and I did based on my little understanding! Asking me to add proof here and there would expose my inexperience, even though I am truly a tyro. You could still meet those who are more knowledgeable than @Teekraye, they'll put you through. I can't go beyond this. Better still, let me say I can't say what I don't know..... However, bear in mind that some of these stories were logically arrived at, some mentioned in the Quran and some were mentioned in the Hadith of prophet Muhammad(SAW)...... NB: I am not saying that all I have said so far on this forum is wrong oooo. Every one who is more knowledgeable than I will tell you the same...... Is it time for me to ask my question Have I tried enough

God called Isaac Abraham ONLY son because Isaac was the promise son God promise Abraham. Its was when God sanctioned the sending away of ishmael and his mother, that was when God called Isaac the ONLY son of Abraham.ishmael was born of the flesh, when Sarah lose patience he advice Abraham to had intercourse with the boundwoman.
Isaac was born of the spirit ,he was the promise child.

Here's a portion from:

https://www.nairaland.com/2410291/which-son-did-god-ask#35225333

In Sura 11: 69-73 we are specifically told the name of the son that Abraham was to get in his old age – Isaac. It was this promised son that Abraham was later tested with to be sacrificed. So when Abraham made the statement in Sura 37: 101-109 it was the ‘righteous son’ that God promised him as per Sura 11: 69-73 – Isaac – that was to be sacrificed.


Sura 11:69-73
"And certainly did Our messengers come to Abraham with good tidings; they said, "Peace." He said, "Peace," and did not delay in bringing [them] a roasted calf.

But when he saw their hands not reaching for it, he distrusted them and felt from them apprehension. They said, "Fear not. We have been sent to the people of Lot."

And his Wife was standing, and she smiled. Then We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob.

She said, "Woe to me! Shall I give birth while I am an old woman and this, my husband, is an old man? Indeed, this is an amazing thing!"

They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah ? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house. Indeed, He is Praiseworthy and Honorable."

For some strange inexplicable reasons, perhaps to seek to maintain their closeness to Abraham, many Arab Muslim leaders chose to replace Isaac with their ancestor Ishmael even though his name was never mentioned in relation to being the promised son. They have subsequently led the entire Muslim world to believe that it was Ishmael that was both the promised son and the one to be sacrificed when it was actually Isaac.

Isaac was conceived MIRACULOUSLY to Sarah who had well passed her child bearing age and a very aged Abraham. The Quran agrees with this. 

Ishmael on the other hand was conceived NORMALLY without any miraculous intervention.

If any of these conceptions is to be seen as UNIQUE obviously the common sense reasoning will pick that of Isaac, not Ishmael.

malvisguy212:
God did not pray

You have sucessfuly prove JESUS is not God

Teekrayne:
........... Isaac was 14 years younger than Ishmael. When Abraham took his son to be sacrificed, that son appears to have been about 13. God several times refers to Abraham's son as his "only son."..... Did God make a mistake?? Did God not know that Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac?

Obviously, God did not make a mistake. What really happened was that Isaac was not born yet. Ishmael, at age 13, was Abraham's only son. Isaac was born one year later...... Well, I am still a student and not a scholar! You asked me to answer you and I did based on my little understanding! Asking me to add proof here and there would expose my inexperience, even though I am truly a tyro. You could still meet those who are more knowledgeable than @Teekraye, they'll put you through. I can't go beyond this. Better still, let me say I can't say what I don't know..... However, bear in mind that some of these stories were logically arrived at, some mentioned in the Quran and some were mentioned in the Hadith of prophet Muhammad(SAW)...... NB: I am not saying that all I have said so far on this forum is wrong oooo. Every one who is more knowledgeable than I will tell you the same...... Is it time for me to ask my question Have I tried enough

Kk Bro , ill put this under Q2( the second set of questions you have not answered due to the fact that you have not provided any scripture from ur side that surpports ur answers to the questions)

Now you can go ahead and ask me any question.