Scholar8200:
Here, once again, you contradict whole portions of Scripture! What? Pls read up Paul's inspired expose in Romans 11 and dont mix up Israel and the church in that passage.
Besides, what purpose serves Daniel 9 with respect to Israel?

There is neither Jew nor Gentile my friend, Christ is the ONLY way to the Father.
1.If a Gentile turned to Judaism, would they get eternal life?
2. Do Jews now have eternal life?

vooks:

You have your eschatology in reverse my brother.
You imagine a special role of Israel post Calvary, you invent its aspects, and then you use your invention to trash scriptures BIG. You demand subscription to your theories in order to disagree with scriptures. All this is a not so clever digression from the subject at hand.


A simpler assignment
If a heathen turned to Judaism now, would they earn eternal life?

So could you throw more light on Romans 11?
A heathen is not an Israelite after the flesh bro. Nobody here is advocating judaism!!! Why not take a tour through Romans11 etc?

vooks:


There is neither Jew nor Gentile my friend, Christ is the ONLY way to the Father.
1.If a Gentile turned to Judaism, would they get eternal life?
2. Do Jews now have eternal life?

Alright what is the message of Romans 11? Why the emphasis by Paul on the fulness of the Gentiles in that chapter? The Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles in Christ however Romans 11 agrees to the prophecies in the OT on the subject of God's plan and programme for the Israelites (after the flesh). Besides the 70 weeks of Daniel was concerning God's programme with Israel (Daniel 9:24a) however, the period of the Gentiles (described by Paul as a mystery in Ephesians 3) was not included but is the break between the 69th and 70th week.

.

vooks:
[b] 1Thessalonians 2:1-8 King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming[/b]

Brethren,
Let's go back to first century and ask ourselves.
Why were the Thessalonians so rattled by the erroneous notion that Christ had returned,that it took Paul to an entire chapter of explaining the events which would occur before Christ returned?

Thanks for your contribution. Firstly the scripture you quoted was 2thess 2. And not 1Thessalonians 2. As you indicated.
Secondly Paul was not making reference to the rapture but rather the second coming which will be 7 years after the rapture. He did the teaching to clear the air about the erroneous teaching about second coming. He firstly made know the preceding events to the second coming as you indicated but if you observe he also pointed out the mysterious event that must take place before all these. Which is the fact that the church will first be taken out of the way before emergence of the anti Christ .it's the presence of the church that is preventing the anti Christ from being made manifest. And this son of perdition will be revealed as soon as the church is taken up out of the way.

2Th 2:6 — 2Th 2:7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

vooks:

At what point in Revelation does Jesus return?

And at what point do we have Rapture?

Why the emphasis in Revelation

Joagbaje:


Why the emphasis in Revelation

Because Revelation captures FUTURE events, would it miss such an important event that captivated the apostles and which Jesus spent a better part of his public and private ministry teaching?

Besides, how else would one know the number of saints resurrections other than from scriptures of which Revelation I one of them?

Resurrection is mentioned in the gospels,Acts,Pauline epistles and Revelation. All I need is some strong BIBLICAL sense in distinguishing instances of resurrection into two or more events and not one.

Scholar8200 and Image123 would have a fighting chance if they equally believed in multiple comings of Jesus Christ because ALL the resurrection accounts place the event at Jesus' coming.

Behold the inconsistency in their beliefs! They hold onto a singular return/coming but multiple resurrections. To do this, they must needs deny a simple scriptural truth; resurrection of the saints is at the Coming o Jesus Christ

Joagbaje:



Thanks for your contribution. Firstly the scripture you quoted was 2thess 2. And not 1Thessalonians 2. As you indicated.
Secondly Paul was not making reference to the rapture but rather the second coming which will be 7 years after the rapture. He did the teaching to clear the air about the erroneous teaching about second coming. He firstly made know the preceding events to the second coming as you indicated but if you observe he also pointed out the mysterious event that must take place before all these. Which is the fact that the church will first be taken out of the way before emergence of the anti Christ .it's the presence of the church that is preventing the anti Christ from being made manifest. And this son of perdition will be revealed as soon as the church is taken up out of the way.

2Th 2:6 — 2Th 2:7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

You will learn something when you let Paul speak and not your theories.

Paul is talking about the COMING of Jesus AND 'our gathering together unto him'

Please tell me why he puts these two events together if they are unrelated and years apart

Scholar8200:

Alright what is the message of Romans 11? Why the emphasis by Paul on the fulness of the Gentiles in that chapter? The Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles in Christ however Romans 11 agrees to the prophecies in the OT on the subject of God's plan and programme for the Israelites (after the flesh). Besides the 70 weeks of Daniel was concerning God's programme with Israel (Daniel 9:24a) however, the period of the Gentiles (described by Paul as a mystery in Ephesians 3) was not included but is the break between the 69th and 70th week.

Digression is your forte.
Please start a thread on Israel and the church and I wil kindly schol you through. The ONLY reason for this needless dithering and digression is because your theories can't stand scrutiny, so you keep throwing me off your trail

Think through this in your devotion
EVERY right or privilege a Jew has/had came through Abraham, and is appropriated by the Gentile through faith in Jesus

Galatians 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There are no sacred cows,nor sacred/special races. Faith in Christ is the currency of heaven. Abraham was justified by faith.

Ephesians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

God through Christ abolished the ONLY thin that separated Jews from Gentiles; the Law, making the Jew and the Gentile ONE

And that ONE man is the NEW creature in Christ or the Church which is the Kingdom of Priests

1 Peter 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

BTW,you are begining to sound like a dispensationalist Shdemidemi who chickene out of a public debate on the subject

Scholar8200:
So could you throw more light on Romans 11?
A heathen is not an Israelite after the flesh bro. Nobody here is advocating judaism!!! Why not take a tour through Romans11 etc?

I have asked you simple questions which you can't answer. Here they are;
1. Would a heathen converting to Judaism earn eternal life?
2. Do Jewish Judaists have eternal life?
3. If Yes to #2, why was Peter appointed an apostle to them? Why do they need Christ?

Joagbaje,Image123,Gombs,Scholar8200,Goshen360

Meditate on the highlighted


1 Corinthians 15:20-23 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

RESURRECTION is AT the COMING of Jesus Christ.

Why were the Thessalonians spooked by the event being past? Because missing the FIRST RESURRECTION makes you a hell candidate according to Revelation 20

Scholar8200,Image123,Gombs,Joagbaje,Shdemidemi


[size=15pt]Could you please show me the TWO distinct resurrection of the saints in Revelation?[/size]

vooks:

Digression is your forte.
Please start a thread on Israel and the church and I wil kindly schol you through. The ONLY reason for this needless dithering and digression is because your theories can't stand scrutiny, so you keep throwing me off your trail

Think through this in your devotion
EVERY right or privilege a Jew has/had came through Abraham, and is appropriated by the Gentile through faith

Galatians 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There are no sacred cows,nor sacred/special races. Faith in Christ is the currency of heaven. Abraham was justified by faith.

Ephesians 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

God through Christ abolished the ONLY thin that separated Jews from Gentiles; the Law, making the Jew and the Gentile ONE

And that ONE man is the NEW creature in Christ or the Church which is the Kingdom of Priests

1 Peter 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

BTW,you are begining to sound like a dispensationalist Shdemidemi who chickene out of a public debate on the subject

okay

There is only ONE global resurrection/rapture of the saints in Revelation, and that happens in;

Revelation 20:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; [size=15pt]and they lived[/size] and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

AND THEY LIVED

The reason we have ONE and not two,three or four resurrections of th saints is because there is only ONE Resurrection. This is the one event Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, John 6, Martha believed in it in John 11, Paul amplifies it in 1 Corinthians 15,1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians 2, Peter hints at it in 2 Peter 3 and in ALL these portions of scriptures,without exception, it happens at the COMING of Jesus Christ

Perish multiple-resurrection theories

vooks:


You will learn something when you let Paul speak and not your theories.

This choice of language is unecesary. Communicate humbly . just in case you were wrong you can take it with grace .

Joagbaje:


This choice of language is unecesary. Communicate humbly . just in case you were wrong you can take it with grace .

This is the singular reason I find it difficult to communicate with him!

Gombs:


This is the singular reason I find it difficult to communicate with him!

Scape goat for your lack of depth in these matters
Bring in the gifs

Joagbaje:


This choice of language is unecesary. Communicate humbly . just in case you were wrong you can take it with grace .

Excellent point. I can say this with all humility; multiple resurrection of the saints is a heresy just as is a pre-Advent resurrection

Gombs:


This is the singular reason I find it difficult to communicate with him!

what a way to escape when there is no other line of defence.

Joagbaje:


This choice of language is unecesary. Communicate humbly . just in case you were wrong you can take it with grace .

there is nothing wrong with his choice of words, he is right. Your theories are simply man made with no biblical proof.

I think the period when black (Negro) soldier-warrior emperors ruled Rome was the millenial reign of Christ.

This was the first resurrection, when they took the kingdom.

MrPresident1:
I think the period when black (Negro) soldier-warrior emperors ruled Rome was the millenial reign of Christ.

This was the first resurrection, when they took the kingdom.

Gombs:

Joagbaje:


This choice of language is unecesary. Communicate humbly . just in case you were wrong you can take it with grace .

Hehehehehehehe, vooks blood dey always hot not warm, adonknowwhy.

Wouldn't it be wiser 2 prepare 4 a pre-trib rapture dan a post-trib rapture? Its only a fool dat chooses 2 go to hell to proove if hell is really eternal. Now in the rapture, the church departs d earth to meet christ in d clouds without a single battle(satan will be present on earth). In the second coming, Jesus returns with d church to battle d beast and false prophet (satan would be thrown into d bottomless pit so therefore he will be expelled 4rm earth) after d 1000 year reign of Christ, satan would be released and eventually defeated by God himself.

Image123:


Hehehehehehehe, vooks blood dey always hot not warm, adonknowwhy.

Image123 my Negro,
You are a reasonable broda,you can see through the shenanigans of multiple resurrection

jared007:
Wouldn't it be wiser 2 prepare 4 a pre-trib rapture dan a post-trib rapture? Its only a fool dat chooses 2 go to hell to proove if hell is really eternal. Now in the rapture, the church departs d earth to meet christ in d clouds without a single battle(satan will be present on earth). In the second coming, Jesus returns with d church to battle d beast and false prophet (satan would be thrown into d bottomless pit so therefore he will be expelled 4rm earth) after d 1000 year reign of Christ, satan would be released and eventually defeated by God himself.

Actually, preparing for the worst is more sensible because it can only be a pleasant surprise if you got it bad.

vooks:


It us quite unfortunate you IGNORED all the question I asked.

Yes i'm fine and you? BTW, i answered all the questions you asked, maybe you do not like or agree with the answers though.

Jesus is called the first begotten from among the dead yet the dead were rising long before He came on earth. Why is this? His resurrection entailed transformation from physical to spiritual; H rose again to Never die again, His mortality was clothed with immortality while Lazarus died again.

Jesus is INDEED the FIRST begotten from the dead, it is no wordplay. And like you have shown, it is because "He rose again to never die again". That makes His resurrection unique, He was glorified, and so will all believers at the resurrection. His is indeed FIRST of that order, others follow. This is unlike the 'first resurrection' or 'second death' which are phrases related to each other not to some other second or third resurrections, or some first or third deaths.

This mean Jesus was th first to be clothed with immortality.

FIRST RESURRECTION means exactly that global/church resurrection you read of in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 1 Thessalonians.

What is "global resurrection", hope it's not one of those theory of men?(in vooks'voice of course). The term "first resurrection" is simply a phrase used in comparison to the "second death". There is no second resurrection in the sense. It's just like "first Adam"and "last Adam". The emphasis is more of contextual than numeric.

Church age is a theory of men that is 101% unfounded. It is conjecture.

The church age is simply the period we are in now. It is a reality and not a conjecture as we are living in it. We are the church and this is our time, our age. The church age is the period of the church on earth before the rapture.

Here are the questions Image123 just for you
Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1. There is a resurrection in these verses called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it your 4:1 resurrection or something different?

Like i have stated, i already answered these questions. The rapture event is different from the event in this text. The rapture event takes place in Revelation 4:1, which is immediately after the church age(Revelation 2 and 3). i answered this here when i said "At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1."

2. The resurrection of chapter 20 is of or at least includes those who never received the mark which means they must have been exposed to but resisted the mark. Does your 4:1 rapture/resurrection happen before/after the mark/beast?

Answered already, the rapture happens before the tribulation, and before Revelation 20. The terms "the second coming", "the coming of the Lord", "the day of the Lord", "the last day", all bear broad and related/relative meanings. They refer to a long phase of events. i already alluded to this, referring to Christ's first coming to earth. The first coming included many events in about 33years, there is His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension for instance. His second coming also has series of events lined up, and some are mysterious and symbolized. For instance, the rapture event is a mystery. It's not plain or open for everyone to catch or understand. And of course, neither does understanding of it make anyone more qualified before God or whatever.
And so, Revelations 2 and 3 is what we are experiencing till date. Another phase comes in at 4:1
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

After this, heaven, hereafter, trumpet, these are all pictures that indicate the new phase. In this phase, saints are in Heaven before God, His throne, the Lamb, angels etc, worshipping and praising. Between chapters 4 to 7 or so, you see men and elders in Heaven, different from the souls who will resurrect in the famous Revelation 20.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These were different from the elders, angels and saints busy before the throne and the Lamb in worship. As we later see, some of the angels are fellow humans.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Somewhere in chapter 6 is where the tribulation begins, recall that already in chapters4 and 5, saints are in Heaven already worshipping, and they are different from the souls killed in tribulation. The Beast is first mentioned chapter 13 i think. So, there are some people in Heaven already before the beast or his mark.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

3. The chapter 20 resurrection happens AFTER the beast has been destroyed and cast into the lake of fire towards the end of chapter 19. 2 Thessalonians tells us of a man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. Is it safe to conclude that resurrection happens AFTER the destruction of the beast which happens at the COMING of Jesus?

Like i said from my initial post and have restated, the coming of the Lord is an event spanning a long period. Holistic study of the Bible helps to understand the context, time and event of each passage. The Lord will first "come" FOR His saints(the rapture) before coming WITH His saints/angels/army. One happens in a twinkle of an eye, the other every eye will see Him. The fianl stage of the resurrection will be the resurrection of the tribulation souls as seen in Revelations 20. However, all saints will reign with Christ, and the second death has no power on them.

4. Chapter 20 resurrection is called FIRST RESURRECTION. Is it remotely possible that there was a global resurrection before it, that is supposing for some reason this is not the rapture?

For the umpteenth time, the phrases "the first resurrection"or the "last day" are more of symbolic and contextual, not literal or numeric. The so called last day is not a last 24 hour day. It is a period spanning many years that include resurrection, reigning, and judgment. From all of scriptures, and chronologically looking at Revelations, we see that the Resurrection(call it first resurrection if it makes you more comfortable) is not a single one time event. It is a period, a package, like in government when we say the first republic, that lasts or spans events in about four/five years.

Image123:


Yes i'm fine and you? BTW, i answered all the questions you asked, maybe you do not like or agree with the answers though.

It's fidgeting that I find funny among grown ups

Jesus is INDEED the FIRST begotten from the dead, it is no wordplay. And like you have shown, it is because "He rose again to never die again". That makes His resurrection unique, He was glorified, and so will all believers at the resurrection. His is indeed FIRST of that order, others follow.

Good

This is unlike the 'first resurrection' or 'second death' which are phrases related to each other not to some other second or third resurrections, or some first or third deaths.

oh dear,
FIRST resurrection is coming to live of the saints, second resurrection is the next resurrection found a few verses further, isn't this common sense? Why is it FIRST if it is the only? Jesus is the FIRST begotten because others follow after. FIRST is not idle banter but LOGICAL ordering

What is "global resurrection", hope it's not one of those theory of men?(in vooks'voice of course).

It is MASS resurrection of the saints found in verse 4 of Revelation. I call it global because it involves very many, masses.

The term "first resurrection" is simply a phrase used in comparison to the "second death".

You simply imagined that didn't you
Second death follows first drag while first resurrection is followed by second resurrection of the unjust unto damnation. You don't SIMPLY skirt around scriptures as a Christian

There is no second resurrection in the sense. It's just like "first Adam"and "last Adam". The emphasis is more of contextual than numeric.

Oh mehn,
First, what is FIRST resurrection?
Rev 20:4 tells us, it is coming to life ,'and they lived' of dead men (saints)

Revelation 20:11 tells us sinners come to life much later. They are then thrown into the lake of fire. We are not told this is he second resurrection, but it is a resurrection nonetheless, else what is it?

The "contextual more than numerical' is a testament to a fertile determination to reject scriptures

The church age is simply the period we are in now. It is a reality and not a conjecture as we are living in it. We are the church and this is our time, our age. The church age is the period of the church on earth before the rapture.

it is conjecture. It is true we have church today and we have had church since Pentecost, it is also true we won't have church AFTER Rev 20:4 rapture, it is fertile imagination that the time between Pentecost and the slaying of the beast is divided into 7 'ages'

Like i have stated, i already answered these questions. The rapture event is different from the event in this text.

Like I have told you before, am least interested in Image123 sayings and epistles but in scriptures .

The rapture event takes place in Revelation 4:1, which is immediately after the church age(Revelation 2 and 3).

John is summoned to heaven in this verse and I pray I understand how you following other deluded souls take a theological leap from John to the Church, and how Rev2-3 epistles to 7 literal churches in Asia Minor translate to 'church age'

i answered this here when i said "At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1."

This is not answer but wild and baseless conjecture. Just because you say so don't make it so. I have been chewing these theories for the last 20 years so I know you did not conjure them, you are just regurgitating them and pretending you stumbled upon them on your own. I have no problem with that, I learn from others, but the difference between us is I have questioned them and found them utterly worthless and baseless .

If you could give me REASONS for your statements and stopped wistfully thinking that saying it makes it so, I'd let you off the hook.

Answered already, the rapture happens before the tribulation, and before Revelation 20.

Again, saying it does not prove it, simply say, ' it is written'. Bro you need to learn to speak like Jesus, breathing scriptures and not vainly intruding into things puffed up in your mind or quoting the latest prophecy 'experts'

The terms "the second coming", "the coming of the Lord", "the day of the Lord", "the last day", all bear broad and related/relative meanings. They refer to a long phase of events.

hmm

i already alluded to this, referring to Christ's first coming to earth. The first coming included many events in about 33years, there is His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension for instance.

Shameless lying. Jesus first Advent was his incarnation. What followed his coming is not his coming, he was here already. Meditate on that bro.

His second coming also has series of events lined up, and some are mysterious and symbolized.

Saying it does not make it so bro, there are no series to Jesus coming, ALL EYES will see Him. That is the coming, anything preceding it is not coming but simply something preceding His coming. Aight??

The 're is NOTHING mysterious or symbolized about Jesus coming. You are making this up to explain total absence of Jesus advent and rapture BEFORE Revelation 20.

For instance, the rapture event is a mystery. It's not plain or open for everyone to catch or understand.

It has been revealed by the Holy Spirit to apostle Paul in 1 Cor 15,Thessalonians and so forth.

What part of rapture do you find 'not plain or open to everyone to catch or understuand'? Are you in this category of men to whom it is hid? Could this be why you can't see rapture in Revelation 20 but you go on a wild goose chase in Revelation 4:1 which has NOTHING to do with rapture nor resurrection?

And of course, neither does understanding of it make anyone more qualified before God or whatever.

Very true, but it is blasphemy claiming rapture is what it is not and rejecting it. Rapture and resurrection happen at the same time so if I can find resurrection, I'd sure be reading about rapture and vice versa. So simple ain't it ?

And so, Revelations 2 and 3 is what we are experiencing till date. Another phase comes in at 4:1

Powerful nonsense .
I have told you before, claiming something does not make it so.

Why are 7 letter to seven Asia Minor churches what 'we are experiencing now'? Theories of men who hate the truth.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Very good, you are quoting scriptures just like Jesus

After this, heaven, hereafter, trumpet, these are all pictures that indicate the new phase. In this phase, saints are in Heaven before God, His throne, the Lamb, angels etc, worshipping and praising.

what makes a LITERAL act of John a picture?

Your imagination is overworking. If John represents the Church, should EVEYTHING John does represent the Church? How silly and absurd does that sound?

Between chapters 4 to 7 or so, you see men and elders in Heaven, different from the souls who will resurrect in the famous Revelation 20.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These were different from the elders, angels and saints busy before the throne and the Lamb in worship.

True but so what?

As we later see, some of the angels are fellow humans.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

utter nonsense. What makes this angel human? That the angel is a servant?

Somewhere in chapter 6 is where the tribulation begins, recall that already in chapters4 and 5, saints are in Heaven already worshipping, and they are different from the souls killed in tribulation.

when did they get to heaven? When John was summoned to heaven?

The Beast is first mentioned chapter 13 i think. So, there are some people in Heaven already before the beast or his mark.

This is true but it does not mean rapture happened before the Beast. If the Beast showed up today, there would be thousands of saints in heaven who went there before the Beast showed up. For instance, the saints who died the day before the Beast came.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

So God did not know how to deliver the beheaded? Funny guy. Did he too not know how to deliver Stephen and James?

Like i said from my initial post and have restated, the coming of the Lord is an event spanning a long period.

Like I said over and over, making a claim is one thing, proving it is another. Prove it.

Holistic study of the Bible helps to understand the context, time and event of each passage.

Holistic means with your theoretical bias in mind, right?

The Lord will first "come" FOR His saints(the rapture) before coming WITH His saints/angels/army.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
This verse is talking of Jesus coming with the dead. Which event is this according to your eschatology, the former or the latter?

One happens in a twinkle of an eye, the other every eye will see Him.

You are out of your depth and Google should be your best friend. The twinkle of an eye is the clothing of mortality with immortality. It is instantaneous-1 Cor 15. The all eyes seeing Him is Jesus coming is not a private secret spiritual mumbo jumbo but a public and global even. They are not mutually exclusive, at Jesus' public return is when we shall be changed in a moment.

The fianl stage of the resurrection will be the resurrection of the tribulation souls as seen in Revelations 20. However, all saints will reign with Christ, and the second death has no power on them.

Resurrection had no stages, there is ONLY the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4 of the saints, and a later one of sinners in v11.

4:1 is a figment of deluded minds and totally baseless

For the umpteenth time, the phrases "the first resurrection"or the "last day" are more of symbolic and contextual, not literal or numeric.

Claiming it does not make it.
We have first and second death, we have first and second resurrection in Revelation 20.

The so called last day is not a last 24 hour day. It is a period spanning many years that include resurrection, reigning, and judgment. From all of scriptures, and chronologically looking at Revelations, we see that the Resurrection(call it first resurrection if it makes you more comfortable) is not a single one time event. It is a period, a package, like in government when we say the first republic, that lasts or spans events in about four/five years.

Just because one is a symbol does not make he other a symbol . Ever thought about it?

Last day means others were there before it. Think through that.


Your inability to demonstrate ANY resurrection prior to the Rev 20 is a testament to the fickleness of your multiple resurrection theories.

I had come to respect you as a reasonable debater but it turns out you are totally soul'd our to sectarian beliefs and you would sell your mother and commit sepukku than renounce them even when proved wrong.

I will give you a second chance to attempt these questions.

Specifically , where is rapture remotely hinted in Revelation prior to Revelation 20?


Cc: Gombs,Scholar8200,Goshen360,Joagbaje,Ayoku777,Esere826,MutleyLaff ,Shdemidemi,MrPresident1

vooks blood dey hot like yam, why? You're one funny fellow, you're not willing to learn or discuss na, you already set the conclusion, you're the referee and you're also playing and shifting goalposts, creating theories and doctrines, insulting everything and everyone on the way etc. Take am easy, Life is beautiful.

Image123:
vooks blood dey hot like yam, why? You're one funny fellow, you're not willing to learn or discuss na, you already set the conclusion, you're the referee and you're also playing and shifting goalposts, creating theories and doctrines, insulting everything and everyone on the way etc. Take am easy, Life is beautiful.

Am quite brutal at smashing man made heresies and doctrines so please forgive me if am too hard on you my broda.
You can spare yourself misery and agony by composing your thoughts and ridding them of baseless claims

Do that and you will survive me, else run like a bat outta hell

Let's see who is unwilling to learn nor discuss
1. Image123 without any REASON finds rapture and resurrection of the dead in Revelation 4:1
2. Image123 without any reason nor scriptural basis conjures up 'church ages out of Revelation 2-4
3. Image123 without REASON nor scriptures invents MULTIPLE resurrections of the saints, at least two supposing I never missed any

vooks:

Am quite brutal at smashing man made heresies and doctrines so please forgive me if am too hard on you my broda.
You can spare yourself misery and agony by composing your thoughts and ridding them of baseless claims

Do that and you will survive me, else run like a bat outta hell

Let's see who is unwilling to learn nor discuss
1. Image123 without any REASON finds rapture and resurrection of the dead in Revelation 4:1
2. Image123 without any reason nor scriptural basis conjures up 'church ages out of Revelation 2-4
3. Image123 without REASON nor scriptures invents MULTIPLE resurrections of the saints, at least two supposing I never missed any

Visitor700 agrees with you, remember.