Interestingly, Prophet marked that saddest day by weeping and mourning. The prophet wept for imam al-Husayn even before the incident happened.

3. The Ummah as a whole is accused of the murder of Imam al-Husayn. In particular, all of those Muslims alive at the time of the Karbala tragedy.

Demmzy15:
^^ and me too

lexiconkabir:
my bros, me too , i cant even hurt a fly or a chicken, BUT! i can hurt a ram oo .

AlBaqir:
@Empiree, Demmzy15, lexiconkabir

This is absolutely not funny. Imagine what makes the Prophet crying and sad is what seems amusing to you guys. Weren't those (the killers of Prophet's son) part of the prided "salaf?"

The Banu Israel were cursed by Allah for the crime of killing Prophets sent to them. Here's the Ummah of the holy Prophet with the blood of the son and family of their Prophet. Remember the hadith: "I leave amongst over you two weighty things; the book of God and my Ahlulbayt (household)...I remind you, by Allah, of my Ahlulbayt! I remind you, by Allah, of my Ahlulbayt! I remind you, by Allah, of my Ahlulbayt! {sahih muslim}

The reason why secondarily this Ummah (after the time of Imam Hussein's martyrdom) will also carry the sin of killing the blood of Hussein is if the Ummah continue to undermine and sideline this atrocity and thereby praising these murderers directly or indirectly as it is being done today. That is signs of approval of injustice and oppression. To be free of this blame, one has to show solidarity for Hussein ibn Ali and distance himself from those murderers. Even as staunch as Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah, he cursed the killers of Hussein in a strong way. You dont need to be partisan or religionist to read about the Martrydom of Hussein together with his 72 companions. You dont need to be partisan or religionist to sympathize and weep for Hussein. You only need to be human with conscience.

Lastly, @Empiree, taziya is nothing but innovation into the practice of mourning Hussein ibn Ali (alayhi Salam). There is no single hadith [be it sahih or daif] from the Prophet [salallahu alayhi wa a'alihi] or the Imams of his Ahlulbayt that points to that. Those Shia Ulama who approved it does at their own personal ijtihad. Majority of our Ulama condemned it and some declared it to be Haram. The first from among the Sahaba [who were still alive then] to mourn the death of Hussein (alayhi Salam) was Hazrat Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari (radi'Allahu anhu). He continued these practice till he met his Lord. He never mutilated himself. None of the remaining holy Household of the Prophet did.

WA Salam alaykum.

You got it totally wrong, I meant what I said that I've got nothing to do with his death. But that doesn't mean I don't care, in fact the death of every pious Muslims must be a concern to us all.

When Al-Husayn wanted to leave for Karbala, the Salafs told him to stay but Allah knows the way He does his things. Husayn went and was martyred, the people of Kufah betrayed him. No Muslim was happy and we would continue to follow the footsteps of Hasan and Husayn(RadiAllahu Anhum) for their persistent effort to bring peace to the Ummah. You're presenting it as if the Ahl Sunnah hate the Ahl Bayt, we don't rather we love them and follow them. We follow all the Ahl Bayt from the Prophet's wives(Khadeejah, Aisha, Hafsat, Umm Salama, etc) to others. This is the way of the Salaf, I hope you'll agree with me.

But AlBaqir what's up with some Shias and the beating? Educate me, do you do this also?!

Demmzy15:

[font=serif]You got it totally wrong, I meant what I said that I've got nothing to do with his death. But that doesn't mean I don't care, in fact the death of every pious Muslims must be a concern to us all.

When Al-Husayn wanted to leave for Karbala, the Salafs told him to stay but Allah knows the way He does his things. Husayn went and was martyred, the people of Kufah betrayed him. No Muslim was happy and we would continue to follow the footsteps of Hasan and Husayn(RadiAllahu Anhum) for their persistent effort to bring peace to the Ummah. You're presenting it as if the Ahl Sunnah hate the Ahl Bayt, we don't rather we love them and follow them. We follow all the Ahl Bayt from the Prophet's wives(Khadeejah, Aisha, Hafsat, Umm Salama, etc) to others. This is the way of the Salaf, I hope you'll agree with me.

Demmzy15:


But AlBaqir what's up with some Shias and the beating? Educate me, do you do this also?! [/font]

Demmzy15:


When Al-Husayn wanted to leave for Karbala, the Salafs told him to stay but Allah knows the way He does his things.

Demmzy15:


We follow all the Ahl Bayt from the Prophet's wives (Khadeejah, Aisha, Hafsat, Umm Salama, etc) to others. This is the way of the Salaf, I hope you'll agree with me.

Demmzy15:


But AlBaqir what's up with some Shias and the beating? Educate me, do you do this also?!

Empiree:
My thought as well, Albaqir. No joke intended here. You got it wrong, sir.

AlBaqir:


Then that must have been an expensive joke, brother.

I'm dead serious about deen. Then taziya (cutting oneself with sharp object) is different from "beating" oneself.

Demmzy15:

[font=serif]You got it totally wrong, I meant what I said that I've got nothing to do with his death. But that doesn't mean I don't care, in fact the death of every pious Muslims must be a concern to us all.
When Al-Husayn wanted to leave for Karbala, the Salafs told him to stay but Allah knows the way He does his things. Husayn went and was martyred, the people of Kufah betrayed him. No Muslim was happy and we would continue to follow the footsteps of Hasan and Husayn(RadiAllahu Anhum) for their persistent effort to bring peace to the Ummah. You're presenting it as if the Ahl Sunnah hate the Ahl Bayt, we don't rather we love them and follow them. We follow all the Ahl Bayt from the Prophet's wives(Khadeejah, Aisha, Hafsat, Umm Salama, etc) to others. This is the way of the Salaf,I hope you'll agree with me.

AlBaqir:

Naturally ones wife is part of the 'famly' but in the case of Muhammad, especially if the word "ahl al-bayt" is used, his wives are not.

AlBaqir:


Who were the Salafs? Was Hussein himself not a Salaf?

Truly many (among whom was Abdullah ibn Abbas) did persuade him not to leave for Iraq because of so many reasons part of which was the Iraqi inconsistency in loyalty. But Imam Hussein chose and dimmed it necessary to go. Why? Read whatever Maqtal Al-Hussein you can lay your hands on and in sha Allah you will embrace Imam's decision.

He is an Imam over the Ummah, and as per "Imam", Allah says {We have made them Imams to guide by our command}. His decisions was solely based on what his grandfather fought and established for 23years i.e 'Amr bil Ma'ruf wa Nahyil annil Munkar'.

Well that's your choice. However Prophet NEVER instructed you to follow "Ahlulbayt from his wives", rather he instructed you to follow "Ahlulbayt of his offspring" ONLY. The Mutawatir ahadith says: I leave amongst over you, two weighty things so long you adhere to it, you will never go astray; the book of God and my Ahlulbayt, my offspring (itrah)...

In another hadith, the Prophet says: I have left amongst over you Two Khalifas...the book of God and my Ahlulbayt, my offspring....

AlBaqir:
@Demmzy15, Imam Abu baker, Imam Umar, Imam Uthman and Imam Muawiyah? It seems you don't understand the concept of Imamah. Let's quickly refer to the holy Quran and ahadith to explore this concept.

"And when Ibrahim was tried by his Lord with some words, and he fulfilled them, He said, "I will appoint you an Imam OF MANKIND ." He (Ibrahim) asked, "And of my offspring?" He (Allah) replied, "My covenant shall not reach the wrongdoers {surah baqarah: 124}

Ibn Kathir writes:
"...He (Ibrahim) requested Allah that this Imamah be connected with his lineage, and be uninterrupted within his offspring, and be perpetual forever among his offspring. So, what he asked was granted...and the wrongdoer were excluded from its reach and it was made exclusively to the righteous scholars among his offspring."
{Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, vol.1, please. 191}

Imam of hadith, Abu Ya'la (d. 307H) documents:

"Al-Hasan b. Ismail Abu Said - Ibrahim Ibn Sa'd - his father - Anas:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "The Imams are from Quraysh"

{Musnad Abu Ya'la, vol. 6, p. 321, #3644. The annotator, Dr. Shayk Asad says: The chain is Sahih}

In fact Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani opined that the hadith is Mutawattir:

"The hadith: The Imams are from Quraysh" is recorded by al-Nasai from Anas, and al-Tabari narrated it in al-Dua...I say: I gathered its chains in a separate volume from forty sahaba"
{Talkhis al-Habir, vol. 4, p. 116, #1730}

This hadith opined that there are Imams from the progeny of Ibrahim in this Ummah. However, Quraysh is a large tribe with several clans. Are the Imams spread across the whole clans or are they concentrated in a single clan? Answers are readily available in the following ahadith:

1. Hadith salat

O Allah! Bless Muhammad and the ahli of Muhammad, in exactly the same manner as You blessed Ibrahim and the ahli of Ibrahim...

Some of the blessings Allah conferred upon Nabi Ibrahim and his ahli were (a) preference and divine selection ABOVE MANKIND {sura al-Imran:33}
(b) Imamah. Other blessing are spread across the Quran.

Was Abu Baker, Umar, Uthman, Mu'awiyyah part of the Prophet Ahl?

2. Hadith Thaqalayn
"O mankind! I have left behind over you that which if you hold fast to it you will never go astray: the book of Allah and my offspring, my Ahl al-bayt "

Demmzy15:


Imam Abubakar, Imam Umar, Imam Uthman, Imam Ali, Imam Muawiyah, Imam Hasan(RadiAllahu Anhum) are all from the Quraysh. So basically you're saying nothing new here.



No but they're from Quraysh so therefore they've right to the Khalifah and the leadership of the whole Muslim Ummah.

Demmzy15:


[font=serif]Husain said to Zaid bin Arqam(ra) : Who are the members of his household? Aren’t his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: ‘Ali and the offspring of ‘Ali, ‘Aqil and the offspring of ‘Aqil and the offspring of Ja’far and the offspring of ‘Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes. (Sahih Muslim, Book 31, Hadith 5920).

The explanation and understanding of Sahabi Zaid bin Arqam(ra) is further strengthened by a reliable version of hadeeth Thaqalayn, which has the expression “Kitab Allah wa `Itrati Ahlu-Bayti“, we know that Ahlul-Bayt refers to the household, let’s discover what the `Itrah means in Arabic.

MrOlai:


Shia have their own definition of Ahl Bayt just like they have their own interpretations of Quran and ahadith of the Prophet(SAW). They do not consider the wives of the Prophet(SAW) as part of the Ahl Bayt! This is what Albaqir has to say about the wives of the Prophet(SAW):
It's very terrible!

dragnet:


lol... ridiculous set of people they are and they can't include the wives, because they've labeled some as prostitute.

AlBaqir:


That's the campaign of the Wahabis. Kindly bring forth a sahih or Hasan graded Shia documentations that ever claim any of the wives of the Prophet was accused of Prostitutions. What is documented galore in the Quran and your Sihah is that some Sahaba made the heinous claim. And Aisha herself named some of them in various riwayat of yours. So do not lie against the Shia.

What some of the wives of the Prophet is accused of is even greater than your lies of prostitution. Quran accused Aisha and Hafsah of divulging Prophetic secrets and planning against the Prophet. The same crime of the wives of Nuh and Lut. And Allah says Aisha and Hafsa's heart are deviated from the truth of opposing the Prophet. That was the last update about the two in the Quran. This surah alone sink all the pseudo hadith that claim Aisha was the best. Allah Himself counted about seven to nine qualities she lack that other Muslima have.

See our Tafsir of Sura Ahzab. Despite all these, all of the wives still remain the Mother of the faithful.

dragnet:

probably my use of the word 'prostitute' is out of line,
are you categorically telling me that the shia do not accuse Aisha of Zina?

AlBaqir:


As you and I will argue to convince non-Muslims that Boko haram, ISIS et al are not representatives of Islam, so also am doing the same here. You don't burn a house down because of a mice. I will be doing injustice to label all that subscribe to Salafiism as terrorist simply because terrorists continuously justify their actions with Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Abdulwahab Fatawas. This is not the first time I will give presentations on this issue. The element among the Shia that used to accuse Aisha of prostitution are the Yasiriyah. They have a satellite tv where they this henious act. They've labeled top Shii Maraji as Kufar simply because they were advised to detest from such act.

However, all the ahadith they use to propagate this act are 100% Mawdoo. A book readily available for free has been written to this effect by Toyib Olawuyi, titled: Aisha and the Yasiri slanders. It highlighted all the purported ahadith and expose their flaws as per shii ilm rijal. The book is readily available on google books.

No wife of any Prophet of God ever committed zina

AlBaqir:


In sha Allah with sincerity in our heart, we will surely reach the truth.

First you are not the first to reach that conclusion above. The legitimacy of the Khilafah and Imamah of AbuBakr, Umar et al need to be proven by all means possible otherwise the creed of Ahlu Sunnah collapse. All the Ulama of this creed from the past to the present continue their utmost best to prove the legitimacy.

Yes those companions were Qurayshi and politically they are suitable to be Khalifah. But the choice is Allahs' and His prophets'.

The ahadith I quoted above {Hadith Thaqalain, Hadith Khalifatain, Hadith Salat among many others} solely restricted the divine post of Imamah and Khilafah to the Offspring of the Prophet. As Allah accepted the prayer of Ibrahim to restrict the Imamah permanently and forever within his offspring, so also the prayer of the Prophet was granted in the Hadith Salat.

To further emphasize this, prophet declared:

'Allamah al-Albani (d. 1420H) in his annotated version of Ibn Asim's "kitab al-Sunnah" documents

Ibn Abbas:

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said to 'Ali: "You are to me of the status of Harun to Musa, with the exception that you are not a prophet. [Verily, it is not right that I depart except] with you as my Khalifah over every believer after me."

Allamah al-Albani comments: Its chain is hasan...

{Kitab al-Sunnah (al-Maktab al-Islami; 1st edition, 1400H) [annotator: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani], vol. 2, p. 565, #1188}

This hadith alone is documented in three sighas by Imam Ahmad in his Musnad, an-Nasai in his Sunan and Ibn Asim in his Kitab Sunnah. Shiek Shakir in his annotated version of Musnad corrected the grading of Sheik Albani and Sheik Dr. Jawabirah who both graded the hadith as Hasan, to Sahih. Interestingly, this hadith destabilize the mental capacity of Allamah Albani as he laboured to interpret it. All other Ulama took the fastest route by labeling the hadith as "mawdoo (fabricated)" e.g Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah. Unfortunately our dear Sheik gave no single reason why it is Mawdoo. Other Sunni scholars completely kept mute on the hadith.

Fundamentalist:
I don't understand why people would waste their precious time arguing with AL baqir.



Smh


.. .. .. Walks out of thread