2. BATTLE OF KHAYBAR
Here you doubt the authenticity of the Sanad (chain) reported by Imam al-Hakim, but NOT the hadith itself which Imam al-Dhahabi confirmed that the hadith is Sahih.

# What about the narration of Imam al-Hindi? No attempt.

# Anyhow, here's another Sanad (chain) by Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal in his Musnad:

Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Zayd b. AlHabib - AlHusayn b. Waqid - Abd Allah b. Buraydah - Abu Buraydah:

We besieged Khaybar. So, Abu Bakr took the flag and went. But, he did not achieve victory. Then, the next day, 'Umar too it (i.e the flag), and went and returned without achieving victory. On that day, the people encountered hardship and fatigue. Therefore, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, "I will tomorrow give the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger, and Allah and His Messenger love him too. He will not return unless he has achieved victory." So, we became absolutely certain that victory would be achieved the next day.

When it was morning, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, performed the morning Salat. Then he stood and asked that the flag be brought to him. The people were on their lines. So, he summoned 'Ali and he ('Ali) was sore-eyed. Then he spit into his eyes and gave him the flag, and he ('Ali) achieved victory. I was one of those longing for it (i.e the flag).

Shayk al-Arnaut states: It is a sahih hadith, and this chain is strong (qawi) due to Husayn b. Waqid al-Maruzi.
REF: {Source: Musnad Ahmad, vol.5, p. 353, #23043}.

# Imam al-Hindi again gave a clearer report:

'Abd al-Rahman b. Abi Layli:

'Ali used to come out in winter wearing light clothes and ...he (Ali) said (to me), "Were you not with us, O Abu Layli, at Khaybar?" I said, "Yes, by Allah, I was with you." He said, "Verily, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, appointed Abu Bakr as commander and he despatched with (some) people. BUT HE (ABU BAKR) FLED until he returned to him (i.e the Prophet). And he appointed UMAR TOO as army commander, and HE (UMAR) TOO FLED with the people (i.e his troops) until he got back to him (i.e the Prophet). So, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, 'I certainly will give the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger, and Allah and His Messenger love him too. Allah will grant him victory. He is not someone who flees. Therefore, he sent for me, and I got to him. I was sore-eyed, and could not see anything. So, he spit into my eye."

Al-Hindi comments: Al-Bazzar recorded it, as well as Ibn Jarir (al-Tabari) WHO DECLARED IT SAHIH

REF: {Kanz al-Ummal fi Sunan al-Aqwal wa Af'al (Beirut: Muasassat al-Risalah; 1989), vol.13, p. #36388}

# Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah too documents in his Al-Musannaf, vol.20, pg.446.

3. BATTLE OF HUNAYN
# Here your bogus claim after admitting that Sahabah ran away, was that UMAR was among those who never fled.

# Then, a claim that 80-100 Sahabah remained with the Prophet [peace be upon him and his progeny] among whom were Abu Bakr and Umar.

First, Quran shed light to this:

"Truly, Allah has helped you on many battlefields, and on the Day of Hunayn when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, as vast as it is, was straitened for you. Then you fled away." {surah Tawbah:25}

The statement is general. Therefore everyone fled except whoever there is concrete evidence clearing him.

Here I submitted evidence from your most authenticated and prestigious Sahih al-Bukhari. A Report from Abu Qatadah, a Sahabi, that Umar b. al-Khattab FLED alongside with other Sahabah (including Abu Qatadah himself). Here you are giving desperate tertiary "evidences" that can NEVER be measured along Bukhari's standard in line with Ahl al-Sunnah criteria.

You have two opinions:

1. Declare Bukhari's documentation as False and inaccurate, and your unverified reports will have their ways.

2. Declare those unverified report (that Umar never fled on the day of Hunayn) as false and Bukhari's report will remain stand.

There is no third option except if there is another report that says Umar was among those who first returned back to the Prophet after their initial flight.

NB: You make things difficult if you do not give full reference of hadith you use. This is not the first time you will use Da'if hadith [remember hadith of Ibn Abbas on Mut'ah that I need to show you its daif?].

Lastly, those who reported that there remain with the Prophet 80-100 Sahabah who never fled. Who made the head count in the midst of fierce battle? And are you challenging the "general words" used by Allah that they fled?

Please bear with me. Am trying to attach scan pages of Sahih Ibn Hibban to corroborate scan pix of the Arabic text of Musnad Ahmad but finding it difficult down here-network

AlBaqir:
@ Sino,
First Issue
# As per the Arabic text and full reference of the hadith I requested for, thanks though you cannot provide the full reference. The Arabic text and its sanad should help in locating and verifying the athar. However, the hadith only talks about Abu Bakr's feat at Badr, not Umar which is the primary discussion of this thread. In sha Allah after investigating the athar, I will make my final remarks on it and other evidences pertaining to Battle of Badr. So watch out.

I gave you only what you requested bro, the chain is there, and the books that contains it are also mentioned, perhaps to shorten your search, Musnad Al Bazzaar Kamilan, hadith number 761,chapter: Musnad Ali Ibn Abi Talib, I hope this is good enough?

AlBaqir:

Other Battles
# Now you've raised serious objections on the following:

1. BATTLE OF KHANDAQ
* Your objections were: (i) Did Umar fled? (ii) Did he (Umar) died a Muslim?

As per the second question, though it is irrelevant to this topic. All the same, I have answered you once that obviously Umar died a Muslim because there is no even fabricated athar that he renounced the Shahadat. What we question is his being a true believer (Mu'min) as Quran says:

"The believers (al-Mu'minin) are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and do not doubt afterwards, and they do Jihad with their wealth and with their lives, fir the cause of Allah. They are the truthful ones." {surah al-Hujurat:15}

Incidentally this Ayah was revealed after the treaty of al- Hudaybiyah and here's is an account of Umar's doubt:

# Imam Ibn Hibban (d. 354H):

Narrated from Miswar Ibn Mekhrama and Marwan who both said: "...Umar said: by God, I had never doubted since I embraced Islam except on that day [at Hudaybiyyah], so I went to the Messenger of Allah (saw) and said: 'Aren't you truly the Apostle of Allah?' The Prophet said, 'Yes, indeed!'. I said, 'Isn't our Cause just and the cause of the enemy unjust?' He said, 'Yes.' I said, 'Then why should we be humble in our religion?' He said, 'I am Allah's Apostle and I do not disobey Him, and He is my Helper.' I said, 'Didn't you tell us that we would go to the Ka`ba and perform Tawaf around it?' He said, 'Yes, but did I tell you that we would visit the Ka`ba this year?' I said, 'No.' He said, 'So you will visit it and perform Tawaf around it?'`Umar further said, "I went to Aboo Bakr and said, 'O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet?' He replied, 'Yes.' I said, 'Then why should we be humble in our religion?' He said, 'Indeed, he is Allah's Apostle and he does not disobey his Lord, and He is his Helper...

Allamah al-Albani comments: Sahih

Sheik al-Arnaut also concur: It is sahih hadith

Source: Sahih Ibn Hibban bi Tartib Ibn Balban (Beirut: Muasassat al-Risalah; 2nd edition, 1414H)[annotators: Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani and Shu'ayb al-Arnaut], Vol. 11, Pg. 216, #4872.

* Imam Bukhari and Muslim also document this hadith [or its similarities] in their sahihs.

# As per the verse ["...and they do jihad with their wealth and with their lives, for the cause of Allah...]

Imam Muslim records:

Qutaibah Ibn Sa'id - Layth b. Sa'd and Muhammad b. Romh - AlLayth - Abi Zubair - Jabir who said:

We were one thousand and four hundred on the Day of Hudaybiyah. We paid allegiance to him (the Prophet) and 'Umar was holding the latter's hand (when he was sitting) under the tree (called) Samura (to administer the oath to the companions). He said: We took oath to the effect that we would not flee, but we did not take oath to death.
{Sahih Muslim vol.2, p.#900}

Obviously all the ahadith of his merits can never stand the test of scrutiny as there are other ahadith (about him) that contradict those merits. So he died a Muslim.

The second question is relevant because as Muslims, we have ethics, moral responsibilities placed on us by Allah (SWT) and His Prophet (SAW) in relating with other Muslims, as well as non Muslims too. So far, you have gone against these responsibilities in your continuous attack on the close companions of the Prophet (SAW), which shows you have no regard for what Islam teaches…I’ll come back to this later in my post...

When I say your arguments are shallow and illogical, some might think I’m being rude, but reading the above just confirms this hard truth.
Umar (RA) died a shaeed, he was assassinated while in the masjid praying the Fajr salah, Subhanallah! Here you are AlBaqir, you know not your status before Allah (SWT), nor do you even know you will die a Muslim, and yet you have the effrontery, judging who is a Mu’min and casting aspersion on a martyr who is guaranteed Janah!

So in your world of shi’ism, if someone says he never doubted his faith except in year 2005(for any reason), then it automatically means, up till now (2015), that person is still doubting his faith?! Chai! Na wa o! What sought of logic is this?! (You've raised this issue before and I had dismissed it as not worthy to claim that Umar (RA) is not a believer, but seems you are hell bent on proving Umar (RA) is not a Mu'min, I guess Allah (SWT) gave you this responsibility?)

Furthermore, the hadith clearly documents that the Prophet (SAW) answered Umar (RA) in the affirmative, as well as Abu Bakr (RA), and then we didn’t read anywhere else that Umar (RA) disagreed with them, nor still maintained doubting the Prophet (SAW). In fact, this hadith is written in such a way that gives the reader the impression that Umar (RA) was reminiscing, telling those around him what state he was during the treaty of Hudaybiyah due to the fact that he believed they were on the path of truth, and would prefer the Prophet (SAW) take a stand against the mushrikh of Makkah (i.e confronting them, instead of coming to an agreement with them), a coward would never make such a statement nor even make mention of such a scenario. All your list of grading is unnecessary, I no contest the authenticity, na your shallow conclusion be the issue, it lacks logic, and common sense.

On the narration of Umar (RA) statement, explaining the allegiance on the day of hudaybiyah, this is another shallow reasoning, when you go do Jihad, you don’t go on a suicide mission, yes you are not to flee, but you can retreat and re-strategize (this is allowed according to Allah’s injunctions) when the enemy dey bombard you and your men are dying on the battle field, you know something is wrong, perhaps your strategy is faulty, you retreat, not keep going like zombies until everyone is killed.

All the hadith you have provided, are interpreted based on your parochial and prejudiced opinions, it weighs NADA!

AlBaqir:
# As per the first question: Did Umar fled [at the battle of Khandaq]?

I never claimed he fled at Khandaq rather my claim was he (and his cohorts) hide himself in an unknown garden vicinity.

Imam Ahmad documents:

Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Yazid - Muhammad b. Amr - his father - his grandfather 'Alqamah b. Waqqas - Umm al-Mu'minin Aisha:

I went out on the day of al-Khandaq and stood behind the people. So, I heard footsteps coming from behind me. I turned around and saw Sa'd b. Mu'adh, and his nephew al-Harith b. Aws was carrying his armour....Sa'd passed by, singing a battle song....

Then I stood up and entered a garden. There was a small group of Muslims there, and Umar b. al-Khattab was amongst them and there was another man who was wearing a mask. 'Umar said: "What brought you here? I swear by my life and I swear by Allah, you are a reckless woman! What assures you against the occurrence of a disaster or capture?" He kept blaming me so much until I wished that the earth would split open for me so that I could enter into it. Then the (masked) man removed the mask from his face, and he was Talhah b. Ubayd Allah. So he said, "Woe to you, O Umar! You have said too much today! And where is the writhing movement or the flight except to Allah the Almighty?"

REF: {Musnad (Cairo: Muasassat Qurtubah) [annotator: Shuaib al-Arnaut], vol.6, p.141, #25140}

# Allamah al-Albani has copied the exact same narration in his Sahihah and states:

Imam Ahmad (6/141-142) recorded it from Muhammad b. Amr - his father - Alqamah b. Waqqas - Aisha...

I(Al-Albani) say: This chain is Hasan. Al-Haythami said in Majma al-Zawaid (6/128): "Ahmad recorded it and in the chain is Muhammad b. Amr b. Alqamah, and his hadith is Hasan, and the other narrators in the chain are trustworthy". Al-Hafiz also said in al-Fath (11/43): "And its chain is Hasan"

{Silsilah al-Ahadith al-Sahihah (Riyadh: Maktabah al-Ma'arifah; 1st edition, 1415H), vol.1, p.143-145,#67}

NB: The Arabic text as per your request - see attached pixes from Musnad Ahmad to Sahih Ibn Hibban.

The question is: What was 'Umar and his fellow colleagues doing in a garden, hidden from view, while the Messenger of Allah and other Sahabah were actively in battle against the allied forces of the pagans? The people, as testified by Umm al-Mu'minin Aishah were at the warfront. She was standing behind the fighting soldiers. So, Umar and his small band were completely away from the front, at the back of everyone else. Was it a tactical land ambush by them? But, that was not possible! Firstly, it was a trench war. If anything, 'Umar and his colleagues should be standing with the Prophet at the front - by the trench - preventing the enemies of Allah from successfully crossing over.

Secondly, the messenger did not permit any Sahabi to leave his presence, as reported by the Quran about the battle of Khandaq:

"And when a party of them said: O people of Yasrib! there is no place to stand for you (here), therefore go back; and a party of them asked permission of the prophet, saying. Surely our houses are exposed; and they were not exposed; they only desired to fly away.

And if an entry were made upon them from the outlying parts of it, then they were asked to wage war, they would certainly have done it, and they would not have stayed in it but a little while.

And certainly they had made a covenant with Allah before, that) they would not turn (their) backs; and Allah's covenant shall be inquired of.

Say: Flight shall not do you any good if you fly from death or slaughter, and in that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little. {surah Ahzab:13-16}

The verses confirm that the enemy never breached the boarders of Madinah. They further established that the homes of the people of the city were safe. Of course, it was the battle of the Trench (Khandaq). All the fighting was supposed to be done at the trench, not within the boundaries of Madinah.

Lastly, there is ZERO evidence of any deployment of anyone by the Prophet, during the battle, to mount any ambush in any garden in the city.

As such, the presence of Umar and his colleagues in a safe garden had absolutely no military value or legitimacy. Moreover, one of them was masking his face to conceal his identity.

Another personal opinion and conjectures, so now it is the garden that is hidden not Umar (RA)? It just keep getting ridiculous. I asked for a proof that states that Umar (RA) was hiding inside the garden, you can’t produce any, so your personal opinion as earlier stated is NADA!

When the munafiq came to the Prophet (SAW) to ask permission to leave because of a lie that their houses were in the open, did the narration name Umar (RA) as part of them?! Do you think if Umar (RA) was amongst them, people wouldn’t have raised it as with the case of Uthman (RA) in the battle of Uhud in which ALLAH (SWT) FORGAVE HIM and those who fled?

So it is not about fleeing from battle again, it is now hiding, lol, your case is beyond here…

Anyway, you can only fool a few people, why not tell us about the battle, and the difficulty the Mujahids faced? Even the Prophet (SAW) couldn’t pray dhur and Asr, the weather was very cold and the enemy had archers who rained arrows continuously till evening, perhaps you don’t know. Or you can tell us how the battle went, seems you have privileged information…

Hazrat Jabir narrates:

“That day, the polytheists fought us all day. They divided their soldiers into teams. They sent a big group of soldiers under the command of Khalid b. Walid where the Messenger of God was. They fought until late at night. Neither the Messenger of God nor the Muslims could have the opportunity to leave their places.” (Waqidi, Maghazi, Vol. 2, p. 473)

And please remind me AlBaqir, how many battles, riots, protests, have you participated in? Haven’t you seen pictures of fighters covering their faces with scarves and masks?! Why must you read negativity to everything?! It is not healthy bro, CHANGE!

Again, Allah (SWT) says, Bring your proof if you are truthful, so AlBaqir, bring your proof that Umar (RA) was hiding in the garden, where is it written, which sahaba said Umar (RA) was hiding?!

AlBaqir:
2. BATTLE OF KHAYBAR
Here you doubt the authenticity of the Sanad (chain) reported by Imam al-Hakim, but NOT the hadith itself which Imam al-Dhahabi confirmed that the hadith is Sahih.

# What about the narration of Imam al-Hindi? No attempt.

# Anyhow, here's another Sanad (chain) by Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal in his Musnad:

Abd Allah (b. Ahmad) - my father (Ahmad b. Hanbal) - Zayd b. AlHabib - AlHusayn b. Waqid - Abd Allah b. Buraydah - Abu Buraydah:

We besieged Khaybar. So, Abu Bakr took the flag and went. But, he did not achieve victory. Then, the next day, 'Umar too it (i.e the flag), and went and returned without achieving victory. On that day, the people encountered hardship and fatigue. Therefore, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, "I will tomorrow give the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger, and Allah and His Messenger love him too. He will not return unless he has achieved victory." So, we became absolutely certain that victory would be achieved the next day.

When it was morning, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, performed the morning Salat. Then he stood and asked that the flag be brought to him. The people were on their lines. So, he summoned 'Ali and he ('Ali) was sore-eyed. Then he spit into his eyes and gave him the flag, and he ('Ali) achieved victory. I was one of those longing for it (i.e the flag).

Shayk al-Arnaut states: It is a sahih hadith, and this chain is strong (qawi) due to Husayn b. Waqid al-Maruzi.
REF: {Source: Musnad Ahmad, vol.5, p. 353, #23043}.

Bros don’t mix issues up, there is an issue with the chain of the hadith which makes the hadith weak, and also there is an issue with your skewed understanding and conclusion from other hadiths. For the first, that is simple, we all read the mistake in the chain, the chain you provided for the narration you just posted is not in dispute, and the content is also not in dispute. I had already said Umar fought, he did not achieve victory and returned, he did not fled the battle field, when you go fight and you are defeated, you don’t say I must die on the battle field. Your defeat means your strategy was not efficient, retreat and re-strategize, of which the Prophet (SAW) did by appointing Ali (RA). I asked did the Prophet made a mistake in appointing Umar (RA)? We also read that the Prophet (SAW) also appointed Umar (RA) as ameer for another expedition, so if the Prophet (SAW) did not see Umar’s defeat as cowardice, who you be AlBaqir ehn?! Who be you sef, abi tell us na make we sabi you!

AlBaqir:

# Imam al-Hindi again gave a clearer report:

'Abd al-Rahman b. Abi Layli:

'Ali used to come out in winter wearing light clothes and ...he (Ali) said (to me), "Were you not with us, O Abu Layli, at Khaybar?" I said, "Yes, by Allah, I was with you." He said, "Verily, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, appointed Abu Bakr as commander and he despatched with (some) people. BUT HE (ABU BAKR) FLED until he returned to him (i.e the Prophet). And he appointed UMAR TOO as army commander, and HE (UMAR) TOO FLED with the people (i.e his troops) until he got back to him (i.e the Prophet). So, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, 'I certainly will give the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger, and Allah and His Messenger love him too. Allah will grant him victory. He is not someone who flees. Therefore, he sent for me, and I got to him. I was sore-eyed, and could not see anything. So, he spit into my eye."

Al-Hindi comments: Al-Bazzar recorded it, as well as Ibn Jarir (al-Tabari) WHO DECLARED IT SAHIH

REF: {Kanz al-Ummal fi Sunan al-Aqwal wa Af'al (Beirut: Muasassat al-Risalah; 1989), vol.13, p. #36388}

# Imam Ibn Abi Shaybah too documents in his Al-Musannaf, vol.20, pg.446.

The second hadith has a week narrator, read below:

This hadeeth is of Abdur-Rahman bin Abi Laila from his father. It has been reported in Musnad (778) of Imam Ahmad, Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah (32080), Ibn Majah (117) and others through the chain of Muhammad bin Abdur-Rahman bin Abi Lailah from Minhaal from Abdur-Rahman bin Abi Lailah who report the incident of his father with Ali (ra) which include this hadith of the Prophet (saw). Muhammad bin Abdur-Rahman bin Abi Lailah was the one regarding whom Shu’bah said, “I have not seen a person who has as bad memory as Ibn Abi Lailah.”

Al-Bazzar also quotes it in Musnad (496) with the same chain of narrators. RTS quoted it from Kanz al-‘Ummal where it has been copied from Bazzar and Ibn Jareer. The reference of Musnad al-Bazzar has already been given, as for Ibn jareer then most probably he narrated it in his Tahdheeb al-Aathar which unfortunately is partially available now. We could not find it in the available portion of the book but since we have seen the methodology of Ibn Jareer in this book therefore we can say that it is nothing odd if he had declared it authentic. It is his norm in this book to declare a hadith to be authentic with the indication that this could not be authentic as per the standard of other scholars. He has unique methodology in this particular book as far as authenticity is concerned. He narrates a hadith then declare it authentic then points out the defects based on which other scholars might consider it weak, and then he skips without clarifying why he has considered it authentic ignoring the defects he himself pointed out. Therefore, just as the Shia Ayatullah said regarding the grading of Kulayni, we say the same regarding the grading of Ibn Jarir. Grand Āyat Allāh Ĥusayn `Alī al-Muntažarī stated: “The belief of al-Kulaynī about the correctness of traditions is not a legal proof because he is not an infallible according to us!” [Dirāsāt fī al-Makāsib al-Muĥarrama, of Ĥusayn `Alī al-Muntažarī, volume 3, page 123]

After quoting this hadith in Majma az-Zawaid (9/124) Hafiz Haythami said: “Al-Bazzar narrated it. It contains Muhammad bin ‘Abdur-Rahman bin Abi Laila who had bad memory. All other of its narrators were the narrators of Sahih.”

Hafiz Busiri quotes it in Ithaf al-Khirah al-Maharah (6633) and said: Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shaibah narrated its Isnad is weak due to weakness of Muhammad Ibn Abi Lailah.”

AlBaqir:
3. BATTLE OF HUNAYN
# Here your bogus claim after admitting that Sahabah ran away, was that UMAR was among those who never fled.

# Then, a claim that 80-100 Sahabah remained with the Prophet [peace be upon him and his progeny] among whom were Abu Bakr and Umar.

First, Quran shed light to this:

"Truly, Allah has helped you on many battlefields, and on the Day of Hunayn when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, as vast as it is, was straitened for you. Then you fled away." {surah Tawbah:25}

The statement is general. Therefore everyone fled except whoever there is concrete evidence clearing him.

Here I submitted evidence from your most authenticated and prestigious Sahih al-Bukhari. A Report from Abu Qatadah, a Sahabi, that Umar b. al-Khattab FLED alongside with other Sahabah (including Abu Qatadah himself). Here you are giving desperate tertiary "evidences" that can NEVER be measured along Bukhari's standard in line with Ahl al-Sunnah criteria.

You have two opinions:

1. Declare Bukhari's documentation as False and inaccurate, and your unverified reports will have their ways.

2. Declare those unverified report (that Umar never fled on the day of Hunayn) as false and Bukhari's report will remain stand.

There is no third option except if there is another report that says Umar was among those who first returned back to the Prophet after their initial flight.

NB: You make things difficult if you do not give full reference of hadith you use. This is not the first time you will use Da'if hadith [remember hadith of Ibn Abbas on Mut'ah that I need to show you its daif?].

Lastly, those who reported that there remain with the Prophet 80-100 Sahabah who never fled. Who made the head count in the midst of fierce battle? And are you challenging the "general words" used by Allah that they fled?

Please bear with me. Am trying to attach scan pages of Sahih Ibn Hibban to corroborate scan pix of the Arabic text of Musnad Ahmad but finding it difficult down here-network

Bros, do you believe in part of the Qur’an and disbelieve in another part? Apart from your questionable translation, the next verse put you to shame in denying the truth I have already posted as found in books of hadiths and seerah (history). Allah (SWT) says:

“Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Apostle and Upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.” (Qur’an 9:26)

Here you are saying everyone fled, does it also include the Prophet (SAW) and Ali (RA)? When I posted that not everyone retreated, that some remained with the Prophet (SAW), amongst them were Ali. Abu Bakr and Umar, even, it was reported that those who retreated, came back, but you come dey claim otherwise. The above verse clearly states that Allah (SWT) sent His tranquility on the Prophet (SAW) and the believers, and Allah (SWT) gave them victory.

All your sahih bukhari gymnastic is plain ridiculous, have I ever said that sahih Bukhari and Muslim are the only authentic hadith books?! Please read my reply again bro, hadith and seerah documents Umar (RA) did not retreat, he stood with the Prophet (SAW) along with Ali, Abu Bakr and other companions.

Again, the report varies, some reported 80, some 100, the number is not important, nor is how they made the head count. If you say the “fleeing from battle” was general, then it also includes Ali (RA) abi?

So which is it bro?

The references are there, if you cannot find the narrations in the reference provided, then tell me, I’ll look for them (to the best of my ability) as I did with your request.

sino:


I gave you only what you requested bro, the chain is there, and the books that contains it are also mentioned, perhaps to shorten your search, Musnad Al Bazzaar Kamilan, hadith number 761,chapter: Musnad Ali Ibn Abi Talib, I hope this is good enough?



The second question is relevant because as Muslims, we have ethics, moral responsibilities placed on us by Allah (SWT) and His Prophet (SAW) in relating with other Muslims, as well as non Muslims too. So far, you have gone against these responsibilities in your continuous attack on the close companions of the Prophet (SAW), which shows you have no regard for what Islam teaches…I’ll come back to this later in my post...

When I say your arguments are shallow and illogical, some might think I’m being rude, but reading the above just confirms this hard truth.
Umar (RA) died a shaeed, he was assassinated while in the masjid praying the Fajr salah, Subhanallah! Here you are AlBaqir, you know not your status before Allah (SWT), nor do you even know you will die a Muslim, and yet you have the effrontery, judging who is a Mu’min and casting aspersion on a martyr who is guaranteed Janah!

So in your world of shi’ism, if someone says he never doubted his faith except in year 2005(for any reason), then it automatically means, up till now (2015), that person is still doubting his faith?! Chai! Na wa o! What sought of logic is this?! (You've raised this issue before and I had dismissed it as not worthy to claim that Umar (RA) is not a believer, but seems you are hell bent on proving Umar (RA) is not a Mu'min, I guess Allah (SWT) gave you this responsibility?)

Furthermore, the hadith clearly documents that the Prophet (SAW) answered Umar (RA) in the affirmative, as well as Abu Bakr (RA), and then we didn’t read anywhere else that Umar (RA) disagreed with them, nor still maintained doubting the Prophet (SAW). In fact, this hadith is written in such a way that gives the reader the impression that Umar (RA) was reminiscing, telling those around him what state he was during the treaty of Hudaybiyah due to the fact that he believed they were on the path of truth, and would prefer the Prophet (SAW) take a stand against the mushrikh of Makkah (i.e confronting them, instead of coming to an agreement with them), a coward would never make such a statement nor even make mention of such a scenario. All your list of grading is unnecessary, I no contest the authenticity, na your shallow conclusion be the issue, it lacks logic, and common sense.

On the narration of Umar (RA) statement, explaining the allegiance on the day of hudaybiyah, this is another shallow reasoning, when you go do Jihad, you don’t go on a suicide mission, yes you are not to flee, but you can retreat and re-strategize (this is allowed according to Allah’s injunctions) when the enemy dey bombard you and your men are dying on the battle field, you know something is wrong, perhaps your strategy is faulty, you retreat, not keep going like zombies until everyone is killed.

All the hadith you have provided, are interpreted based on your parochial and prejudiced opinions, it weighs NADA!

Yea, Albaqir went too far castigating this man(RA). His argument is very poor. I now see him as taking position of authority to determine who is or who is not mu'min. His ideology definitely go against Quran injunction. Allah already guaranteed Janna for these righteous sahaba. Who is albaqir to argue otherwise. Shaking my head for the brother. I still will not reprimand all Shia cus baqir's attitude here. No, I wont.

Now back to the relevant question about Umar (RA) being a Muslim, I had advised you about this issue previously, let us read what Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAW) taught us on what is expected from a Muslim in terms of his responsibilities to another Muslim…

Allah (SWT) says in the Qur’an

“O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on each other nor speak ill of each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay ye would abhor it...but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-Returning Most Merciful.” (Q 49:12)

Umar (RA) is not here to defend himself; he has already met what he had sent forth. One who is martyred and guaranteed paradise, so why would any good believer try to speak ill of such a person? It is a disease of the heart to speak ill of the dead who is well known for his good deeds, especially a Muslim who died on the path of Islam.

Narrated AbuBarzah al-Aslami: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: O community of people, who believed by their tongue, and belief did not enter their hearts, do not back-bite Muslims, and do not search for their faults, for if anyone searches for their faults, Allah will search for his fault, and if Allah searches for the fault of anyone, He disgraces him in his house. - Sunan of Abu Dawood, Number 2283

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Beware of suspicion, for it is the worst of false tales and don't look for the other's faults and don't spy and don't hate each other, and don't desert (cut your relations with) one another. O Allah's slaves, be brothers!" - Sahih Al Bukhari, Vol. 8 Number 717

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "I do not like to speak of anyone's faults even if I should receive such and such." Tirmidhi transmitted it, calling it sahih. - Al Tirmidhi Hadith Number 1256

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) mounted the pulpit and called in a loud voice, "You who have accepted Islam with your tongues but whose hearts have not been reached by faith, do not annoy the Muslims, or revile them, or seek out their faults; for he who seeks out the faults of his brother Muslim will have his faults sought out by Allah and he whose faults are sought out by Allah will be exposed by Him, even though he should be in the interior of his house." - Al Tirmidhi Hadith Number 1308

from one of the Imams the shia rever,

In his speech to Mufaddhal ibn `Umar, Imam Ja`far ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:

[b]“A person who talks about a believer’s conduct hoping that through this act, he is able to lower the other person’s value and worth in the eyes of others will be taken out of the guardianship of Allah and will be placed in the guardianship of the Shaitan.” [/b]Al-Mahajjat al-Baydha, Volume 5, Page 155.

[b]NB:[/b]I would like those who seek for unity to see how difficult it is for us to be united, here is a shia who has abandoned the teachings of the Qur’an and that of the Prophet (SAW), he keeps saying that he is following the Qur’an, but Allah (SWT) never mentioned the companions of the Prophet (SAW) by name as hypocrites, nor the Prophet (SAW) mentioned their names for everyone to know them, so he follows his own desires and opinions and opinions of his scholars to determine who was a munafiq, who was not a mu'min amongst the companions of the Prophet (SAW), which clearly is far from what Islam teaches.

If the shia do not see anything good in these close companions of the Prophet (SAW), especially, Umar, Abu Bakr and Uthman, and even the wives of the Prophet (SAW) namely Aisha and Hafsah, then how can you think they have any good opinion of you who hold these people in high esteem as forerunners of the Ummah?! The fact that they backbite, slander and find faults in these people, shows that you are not safe from their actions, so uniting with them is still a long thing, and this is the simple truth.

May Allah (SWT) not make us people who would hate those who have believed before us, who helped His messenger fulfill his task of bringing this beautiful message of Islam to you and me ameen.

And Allah (SWT) know best.

Empiree:
Yea, Albaqir went too far castigating this man(RA). His argument is very poor. I now see him as taking position of authority to determine who is or who is not mu'min. His ideology definitely go against Quran injunction. Allah already guarantee Janna for these righteous sahaba. Who is albaqir to argue otherwise. Shaking my head for the brother. I still will not reprimand all Shia cus baqir's attitude here. No, I wont.

Jazakumullah khayran for posting the link, I no know wetin I do for Anti-spam bot, it just like to ban me

Perhaps there are shias who are moderate, I haven't met one yet, I wish to meet such and sample his opinion about these sahabas in question. I pray for unity, we are divided on so many fronts, but it will take sincerity, compromise, sacrifice, practicable steps and a total return to the Qur'an and authentic teachings of the Prophet (SAW), before such can be achieved.

@Sino and Empiree.
Jazakumullahu khaeran! May Allah(SWT) reward you abundantly for your contributions. For all your contributions here to defend Umar(R.A) and the other noble companions of the Prophet(SAW) who Albaqir considers evils, may Allah(SWT) make them "Ujja" for you on the day of Qiyamah(Amin).

Albaqir is already on the part of "dolal" with all the evils he speaks of Umar(R.A) and the other noble companions of the Prophet(SAW). He is just looking for others to mislead. He needs to make sincere "Taubah" to Allah(SWT), seeks His(SWT) mercy for all the evils he has done against those companions(R.A) and leave his polytheism for Islam as practised by the Prophet(SAW) and His noble companions! These are the only conditions for him not to be punished by Allah(SWT)! He can no longer say he is ignorant of all the evils he has been saying about those companions(R.A)!

This is in line with the following Qur'an verse:

وَمَنْ يُشَاقِقِ الرَّسُولَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُ الْهُدَىٰ وَيَتَّبِعْ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ نُوَلِّهِ مَا تَوَلَّىٰ وَنُصْلِهِ جَهَنَّمَ ۖ وَسَاءَتْ مَصِيرًا

"And whosoever opposes the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) has been manifested unto him, and follows other than the believers' way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself has turned, and expose him unto hell a hapless journey's end!" (Q.4:115)

I pray he realises this sooner.

sino:

Perhaps there are shias who are moderators...

I guess so. They are only compounding their woes! This is what Allah(SWT) says in the Qur'an:

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِئُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُونَ

"They seek to extinguish the Light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His Light, much as the unbelievers may dislike it." (Q.61:8 )

sino:


Jazakumullah khayran for posting the link, I no know wetin I do for Anti-spam bot, it just like to ban me

wa'iyakum. The robot usually react to long epistles. I notice it does that to you and albaqir a lot cus you to love epistles

Perhaps there are shias who are moderate, I haven't met one yet, I wish to meet such and sample his opinion about these sahabas in question.

Indeed, they may be scarce - I won't argue that. I do have quiet some around me here and there is no way of telling faction they belong except once in a blue when they show up with "stone". But never discussed publicly the issue of sahabas or any related subjects. They keep simple adhab. I don't care what they do in their privacy.

I pray for unity, we are divided on so many fronts, but it will take sincerity, compromise, sacrifice, practicable steps and a total return to the Qur'an and authentic teachings of the Prophet (SAW), before such can be achieved.

@underlined, that's just it. We just don't need this bickering especially in this day and age where Muslims are at the center of every bad news.

sino:


I gave you only what you requested bro, the chain is there, and the books that contains it are also mentioned, perhaps to shorten your search, Musnad Al Bazzaar Kamilan, hadith number 761,chapter: Musnad Ali Ibn Abi Talib, I hope this is good enough?

And I express my gratitude with a bold statement that you do not provide a FULL REFERENCE. Besides, have you ever seen the Musnad of al-Bazzar kamilan before? Hardcopy or soft copy? I doubt it. Please prove me wrong by posting the scan pages of the cover page and the exact hadith. I will forever appreciate that. I'm still searching the athar with no success. Bro I doubt you ever verify your posted ahadith. You just copy somewhere. I can provide you in sha Allah with ALL the scan pages of my references.

sino:


The second question is relevant because as Muslims, we have ethics, moral responsibilities placed on us by Allah (SWT) and His Prophet (SAW) in relating with other Muslims, as well as non Muslims too. So far, you have gone against these responsibilities in your continuous attack on the close companions of the Prophet (SAW), which shows you have no regard for what Islam teaches…I’ll come back to this later in my post...

Imam al-Ghazali, Imam Ibn Athir, Imam Sibt al-Jawzi and many others have "accused" Umar b. al-Khattab with more daring words. Why so much care about Albaqir? False accusations are what Islam forbid. Anyway Na your own cup of tea be that.

sino:


When I say your arguments are shallow and illogical, some might think I’m being rude, but reading the above just confirms this hard truth.
Umar (RA) died a shaeed, he was assassinated while in the masjid praying the Fajr salah, Subhanallah! Here you are AlBaqir, you know not your status before Allah (SWT), nor do you even know you will die a Muslim, and yet you have the effrontery, judging who is a Mu’min and casting aspersion on a martyr who is guaranteed Janah!

# Did Umar died a Shaeed? Who killed Umar and why? Kindly educate me to relieve me of my fantasy. Aljannah Guaranteed! Ma sha Allah. That's another long debate. Lets finish one before derailing pls.

sino:


So in your world of shi’ism, if someone says he never doubted his faith except in year 2005(for any reason), then it automatically means, up till now (2015), that person is still doubting his faith?! Chai! Na wa o! What sought of logic is this?! (You've raised this issue before and I had dismissed it as not worthy to claim that Umar (RA) is not a believer, but seems you are hell bent on proving Umar (RA) is not a Mu'min, I guess Allah (SWT) gave you this responsibility?)

Subhan'Allah! Sino, Umar is very sincere in his confession: "he said: by God, I had never doubted since I embraced Islam except on that day [at Hudaybiyyah]..."

And Quran is crystal clear in its definition of a believer: {The believers are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and do not doubt afterwards...}

Kindly do the Tafsir of that clear verse Alfa Sino. Evidently, more than 10 years with the Prophet of Allah (before Hudaybiyah) yet you doubt the Prophet, his decisions and commands, and that is nothing to you!

Imam Muslim on his Hudaybiyah narrations clearly quote al-Zuhayr who reported Umar saying he had to work "greatly" to emancipate for those doubting silly questions he was asking Rasul. Kindly request for the hadith.

NB: # In fact when it comes to confessions, Umar is sincere: 1. He confessed his Tarawih establishment was a "good BID'AH" yet people like you claimed without proof that he only used the word "BID'AH" in the linguistic sense that he was only establishing Sunnah. Umar exposed this filthy lies of his advocators by saying "The one (nawafil) they pray after awaken from sleep is BETTER than this one they are praying (referring to his 'good Bid'ah).
# At another confession, he revealed the Khilafah of Abu Bakr was a mistake but Allah saved them from its evil. He also revealed Abu Bakr's Khilafah was opposed by Ali and his supporters. Yet you people say with no proof that nothing like that happened.

Here's another one when the great caliph confessed he doubt the Prophet.

sino:


Furthermore, the hadith clearly documents that the Prophet (SAW) answered Umar (RA) in the affirmative, as well as Abu Bakr (RA),

Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) did gave answers to those insultive questions. Why did Umar need to go and meet Abu Bakr again after Prophet's clarifications and repeat ALL the questions he had asked the Messenger of Allah? Was Abu Bakr's assurance and confirmations more Sahih and heart assuring than that of the Prophet? Kindly use your logic and sense you pride so much of.

sino:



and then we didn’t read anywhere else that Umar (RA) disagreed with them, nor still maintained doubting the Prophet (SAW). In fact, this hadith is written in such a way that gives the reader the impression that Umar (RA) was reminiscing, telling those around him what state he was during the treaty of Hudaybiyah due to the fact that he believed they were on the path of truth, and would prefer the Prophet (SAW) take a stand against the mushrikh of Makkah (i.e confronting them, instead of coming to an agreement with them), a coward would never make such a statement nor even make mention of such a scenario. All your list of grading is unnecessary, I no contest the authenticity, na your shallow conclusion be the issue, it lacks logic, and common sense.

@underline statement: Now you agree he did doubted the Prophet, and you are looking for evidence if such thing ever repeated itself.



# I refer you to the event of pen and paper that happened few days to the demise of the prophet. Abdullah ibn Abbas tagged it "CALAMITY OF THURSDAY". Umar and his cohorts refused the order of the Prophet. He said: "INDEED! The prophet has been possessed by his illness..." This caused a great uproar leading to some idiots accusing the Prophet of RAVING MADNESS. I have a thread rolling already.

# The expedition of Usama ibn Zaid ibn Harith is another great testimony. This is where the holy Prophet assigned an 18year old Usama as the leader of an Army comprises Abu Bakr, Umar and their cohorts. They refused to go to war with the Romans. This happened while the Prophet was on his sick bed too.

* Indeed! Sino, you get am for logic and sense Gann nnnnnn.

sino:


On the narration of Umar (RA) statement, explaining the allegiance on the day of hudaybiyah, this is another shallow reasoning, when you go do Jihad, you don’t go on a suicide mission,

# Here again you left a clear verse unread. So lets examine the verse again:

{The believers (al-Mu'minin) are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and do not doubt afterwards, and they do Jihad with their wealth and with their lives, for the cause of Allah. They are the truthful ones."} [surah al-Hujurat:15]

And here's Umar's clear words: "We took oath to the effect that we would not flee, but we did not take oath to death.

Here's your pathetic word:

sino:

, when you go do Jihad, you don’t go on a suicide mission,

sino:


yes you are not to flee, but you can retreat and re-strategize (this is allowed according to Allah’s injunctions) when the enemy dey bombard you and your men are dying on the battle field, you know something is wrong, perhaps your strategy is faulty, you retreat, not keep going like zombies until everyone is killed.

All the hadith you have provided, are interpreted based on your parochial and prejudiced opinions, it weighs NADA!

Are you saying Prophet doesn't have strategies Thereby he's sending them on a suicide missions? At Uhud, Prophet strategize his soldiers, they disobeyed him and things fell apart. They fled. He called and called them. They never pay heed. At Hunayn, even despite Prophet's strategies and Muslims outnumbering the pagans, they turned back.

So even if there is a need to retreat and restrategize, whose call is it? Prophet or the runners?

Sino, bring just one sahih evidence whereby the Prophet commanded the Sahabah to retreat. Just one Sahih hadith will do!

Were those who never fled no matter the situation fools?

sino:


Another personal opinion and conjectures, so now it is the garden that is hidden not Umar (RA)? It just keep getting ridiculous. I asked for a proof that states that Umar (RA) was hiding inside the garden, you can’t produce any, so your personal opinion as earlier stated is NADA!

Oh! My bad! Perhaps my assumption is too much. Alfa Nla Sino, kindly shed light to the following questions:

# What was Umar and his colleagues doing in the garden while the people were at the warfront defending the trench?

# Why does he need to blame and woe Aisha (when she saw them in the garden) so much that she wished the ground open and swallow her? So much is the respect to the wife of the Prophet. Na Shia lo ro go.

# Why did Talhah (after removing his mask) need to fire back at Umar to keep shut that there is no escape today except with Allah?

# On whose authority were they in the garden while the Prophet and the believers were at the warfront?

* Kindly save your theories and answer those questions ( as derived exclusively from ahadith) providing Sahih evidence.

sino:


When the munafiq came to the Prophet (SAW) to ask permission to leave because of a lie that their houses were in the open, did the narration name Umar (RA) as part of them?! Do you think if Umar (RA) was amongst them, people wouldn’t have raised it as with the case of Uthman (RA) in the battle of Uhud in which ALLAH (SWT) FORGAVE HIM and those who fled?

So it is not about fleeing from battle again, it is now hiding, lol, your case is beyond here…

# It seems you are hallucinating bro or Na the heat too much. You will need to provide a single evidence on this tread where in reference to battle of Khandaq, that I (Albaqir) ever claimed Umar and his cohorts flee. What I accused them of was hiding in a safe garden

sino:


Anyway, you can only fool a few people, why not tell us about the battle, and the difficulty the Mujahids faced? Even the Prophet (SAW) couldn’t pray dhur and Asr, the weather was very cold and the enemy had archers who rained arrows continuously till evening, perhaps you don’t know. Or you can tell us how the battle went, seems you have privileged information…

Hazrat Jabir narrates:
“That day, the polytheists fought us all day. They divided their soldiers into teams. They sent a big group of soldiers under the command of Khalid b. Walid where the Messenger of God was. They fought until late at night. Neither the Messenger of God nor the Muslims could have the opportunity to leave their places.” (Waqidi, Maghazi, Vol. 2, p. 473)

# Oh!! Was it because of the weather that made Umar hide in that garden along with his cold-phobia colleagues?


A Look at the Battle of Trench
So much is your knowledge in Islamic history when you try to paint the scenario as if there was cold [bad weather] during the day of the battle. Obviously you are going all out, by any means to defend lies.

* The trench made by the Muslims prevented the allied forces of the disbelievers from entering Madinah. The two army faced each other with a huge trench between them.

* The battle took place in a broad-day light, and the real battle that ever took place was between Imam Ali (alaihim Salam) and Amr ibn Abd Wudd who managed to jumped the trench. Imam Ali cut Amr ibn Abd Wudd down. All Muslims did was preventing the enemies from crossing over the trench.

*After so many trial, the enemies retreated.

Kindly read these 2 long narrations in full (with different piece of info):

Al-Haithami documents:

Narrated Aisha: I went out in the day of Al-Khandaq (the Trench) and I was standing behind the people, then I heard sounds of ground coming from behind me, I turned around and saw Sa’d Ibn Ma’aaz and his nephew AlHarith Ibn Aws was carrying his armour, so I sat down on the ground and Sa’d passed by and he was wearing an armour that its outskirts were gone out of his limbs. I was afraid of his armours outskirts, and Sa’d was one of the biggest and tallest people, she said: Sa’d passed by singing epic verses:'Very soon the battle of the brave man begins... What a good thing it is that the death comes...'

She (A'isha) said: then I entered a garden, and I saw that a group of people are there, among them was Umar Ibn Al-Khattab and there was another man who was covering his face, Umar said: 'Woe to you, what brought you here? By God you are a bold woman, what made you think that you are safe of getting captured or get into trouble?! She (A'isha) said: 'He kept blaming me so much until I wished that the earth splits so that I enter into it.' Then the man took the cover away, he was Talha Ibn Ubaidallah, so he said: 'Woe to you Umar! You said too much today, where is the place to escape or flee except towards Allah?'

A man of Mushrikeen hit Sa’d with an arrow, his name was Ibn Al-Urqa, he said: 'Take this, I am Ibn Al-Urqa', the arrow hit Sa’ds arm vein and cut it, Sa’d prayed to Allah (swt) and said: 'O Allah (swt) do let me die until you make me happy of about Bani Quraidha'. She (A'isha) said: 'And they were their allies and friends in Jahiliyya.' She (A'isha) said: 'And then Allah (swt) sent a wind over Mushrikeen and Allah (swt) suffice the believers of the battle, and Allah (swt) is Powerful and Almighty, then Aboo Sufyan and his men went to Tahama, and Oyaina Ibn Badr and his men went to Najjad and Banu Quraidha came back to their castles and the Messenger of Allah (swt) came back to Madinah, and ordered to build a dome out of date tree over Sa’d in the Mosque.

Footnote: Al-Haithami: narrated by Ahmad and Muhammad ibn Amr Ibn Alqama is in its chain, and his Hadeeth is Hasan 'Reliable', its other narrators are trustworthy.

Source: Majma Al-Zawa'id. Vol. 6, Pg. # 144-145


Imam Muslim bin Hajjaj further documents:

Narrated Zuhair Ibn Harb and Is’haq Ibn Ibraheem both from Jarir from AlA’mash from Ibraheem Al-Taimi from his father who said:

We were sitting in the company of Hudhaifa. A man said: "If I were in the time of the Messenger of Allah (saw), I would have fought by his side and would have striven hard for his causes."

Hudhaifa said: 'You might have done that, (but you should not make a flourish of your enthusiasm). I was with the Messenger of Allah (saw) on the night of the Battle of Ahzab and we were gripped by a violent wind and severe cold.

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Hark, the man who (goes reconnoitring and) brings me the news of the enemy shall be ranked with me on the Day of Judgement by Allah (the Glorious and Exalted)!" We all kept quiet and none of us responed to him. (Again) He (saw) said: "Hark, a man who (goes reconnoitring and) brings me the news of the enemy shall be ranked with me on the Day of Judgement by Allah (the Glorious and Exalted)!" We kept quiet and none of us responded to him. He again said: "Hark, a man who (goes reconnoitring and) brings me the news of the enemy shall be ranked with me on the Day of Judgement by Allah (the Glorious and Exalted)!" Then he (saw) said: 'Get up Hudhaifa, bring me the news of the enemy.' When he called me by name I had no alternative but to get up. He said: Go and bring me information about the enemy, and do nothing that may provoke them against me." When I left him, I felt warm as if I were walking in a heated bath untill I reached them. I saw Aboo Sufyan warming his back against fire I put an arrow in the middle of the bow intending to shoot at him, when I recalled the words of the Messenger of Allah (saw), "Do not provoke them against me." Had I shot at him, I would have hit him. But I returned and (felt warm as if) I were walking in a heated bath (hammam). Presenting myself before him, I gave him information about the enemy. When I had done so, I began to feel cold, so the Messenger of Allah (saw) wrapped me in a blanket that he had in excess to his own requirement and with which he used to cover himself while saying his prayers. So I continued to sleep until it was morning. When it was morning He said: 'Get up, O heavy sleeper!'

Source: Saheeh Muslim. Vol. 2 Pg. # 860 - 861

# Obviously Umar b. al-Khattab was missing in action. Where was he?

# On a more friendly note, kindly provide me with Sahih evidences that Prophet did not pray Dhur and Asr on that day. Looking forward to that.

sino:


And please remind me AlBaqir, how many battles, riots, protests, have you participated in? Haven’t you seen pictures of fighters covering their faces with scarves and masks?! Why must you read negativity to everything?! It is not healthy bro, CHANGE!

Again, Allah (SWT) says, Bring your proof if you are truthful, so AlBaqir, bring your proof that Umar (RA) was hiding in the garden, where is it written, which sahaba said Umar (RA) was hiding?!

Baba Sino. Alfa Nla. Here we talk ISLAMIC JIHAD. It has rules and regulations. Kindly provide us of one of those rules whereby Prophet said "mask on"?! Such is your intellect comparing riots and "world wars" with Islamic holy Jihad under the banner of His grace, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him and his progeny).

What were they doing inside the garden with one masking his face? Answer those questions above with sahih evidences.

sino:

Bros don’t mix issues up, there is an issue with the chain of the hadith which makes the hadith weak, and also there is an issue with your skewed understanding and conclusion from other hadiths. For the first, that is simple, we all read the mistake in the chain, the chain you provided for the narration you just posted is not in dispute, and the content is also not in dispute. I had already said Umar fought, he did not achieve victory and returned, he did not fled the battle field, when you go fight and you are defeated you don’t say I must die on the battle field.

Alhamdulillah that you don't have issue with the sahih narration in Musnad Ahmad. So we can limit ourselves to that. @bold^ please say it again.

Obviously you agreed Umar RETURNED BACK AFTER BEING DEFEATED. That sealed the argument. Umar returned home defeated. Who defeated Umar, the great? So where's that so called strength of Umar... his sagacity...and fanciful talk that enemies used to run away for him?

sino:


you don’t say I must die on the battle field.

Heya such is the mindset of "Muslim" but never Believers who will laid down their lives in Jihad. You missed something in respect to that coward statement of yours. The Sahih Hadith of Ahmad says:

"Therefore, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, "I will tomorrow give the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger, and Allah and His Messenger love him too. He will not return unless he has achieved victory. So, we became absolutely certain that victory would be achieved the next day."

So you see say level pass level.

sino:


Your defeat means your strategy was not efficient, retreat and re-strategize, of which the Prophet (SAW) did by appointing Ali (RA).

# Who designed the strategy, first for Abu Bakr, and second for Umar's unit; and they both successively failed and returned back defeated? Prophet or Abu Bakr or Umar? This is a sincere question you need to ask yourselves.

If it was the Prophet, obviously the failure failure can never be attributed to his grand divine design. And absolutely there is no way any troop will under the command of the Prophet without dispatching them with that divine strategy and Du'a. So what happened, Alfa Sino?

Imam Muslim gave a detailed narrations of Ali's conqueror of Khaybar. There was a fearless warrior at the castle called Marhab. He challenges with Duel fight. Duel battles, being the custom of the Arabs. Imam Muslim reported how Ali was challenged by Marhab for a duel fight. Ali responded and finished Marhab. The rest was history. Obviously, our dear Abu Bakr and Umar must have been challenged by Marhab for duel fight and RETURNED DEFEATED.

Indeed "believers are only those...who do Jihad with their wealth and their lives..."[Quran says].

sino:


I asked did the Prophet made a mistake in appointing Umar (RA)?

Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) never mistaken in his decisions. Appointing Abu Bakr and Umar showed how he threw the opportunity open to show case their faith, valor, sagacity and bravery. So, after the two Sheiks had failed woefully, there is no point sending warrior below them in status. Thereby, prophet this time confirmed the status of a man he will send next. Prophet said that man will not turns back until he achieve victory {obviously, he never runs}. Even all the Sahabah that reported this agreed with that statement of the Prophet that victory is certain.

sino:


Bros, do you believe in part of the Qur’an and disbelieve in another part? Apart from your questionable translation, the next verse put you to shame in denying the truth I have already posted as found in books of hadiths and seerah (history). Allah (SWT) says:

“Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Apostle and Upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.” (Qur’an 9:26)

# First, you have a task then to re-translate the verse. Don't you have the Arabic with you?

# Now lets review the ayahs altogether:

{Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you fled.} [surah tawbah:25]

Obviously after the fleeing of the largest number of Muslim army, then Allah sent sakinah upon the Prophet and the believers (the steadfast) [verse 26]. Quran made a clear distinction between a Muslim and a Mu'minin. Allah never sends sakinah upon "heart with fear". You need to be a believer (Mu'minin) with certain level of faith in your heart to receive His sakinah. Interestingly ALL the places in the Quran where sakinah was sent to the Prophet, it was in conjunction with "The Believers" EXCEPT surah Tawbah:40. Only the Prophet received the sakinah while his companion in the cave was denied of Allah's sakinah. Why? Because he exercise FEAR while the Prophet tells him "Do not fear, Allah is with us"! Sahih Bukhari/Muslim has a ample narrations on this.

Allah ONLY send Sakinah into a heart with degree of faith to STRENGTHENED and ADD to his established faith.

{He it is Who sent down tranquillity into the hearts of the believers that they might have more of faith added to their faith, and Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Knowing, Wise}[surah Fath:4]

The difference between Muslim and Mu'minin is express thus:

{The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit (aslamna); and faith has not yet entered into your hearts, and if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.{surah Hujurat: 14}

That's why some will ever be steadfast no matter be the situation. And some will always take their flight.

sino:


Here you are saying everyone fled, does it also include the Prophet (SAW) and Ali (RA)? When I posted that not everyone retreated, that some remained with the Prophet (SAW), amongst them were Ali. Abu Bakr and Umar, even, it was reported that those who retreated, came back, but you come dey claim otherwise. The above verse clearly states that Allah (SWT) sent His tranquility on the Prophet (SAW) and the believers, and Allah (SWT) gave them victory.

# Quran use the general term not me {THEN YOU FLED}, and the pronoun in the ayah only refer to the Muslims Not the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny)

# Prophet NEVER FLED AND NEVER RETREAT OR NEVER DEFEATED/SURRENDER.

# Ali is the self (clown) of the Prophet [Quran says], yet his Master (saws) boasts of him:{He (Ali) will not return except he achieved victory}.

sino:


All your sahih bukhari gymnastic is plain ridiculous, have I ever said that sahih Bukhari and Muslim are the only authentic hadith books?! Please read my reply again bro, hadith and seerah documents Umar (RA) did not retreat, he stood with the Prophet (SAW) along with Ali, Abu Bakr and other companions.

Again, the report varies, some reported 80, some 100, the number is not important, nor is how they made the head count. If you say the “fleeing from battle” was general, then it also includes Ali (RA) abi?

So which is it bro?

The references are there, if you cannot find the narrations in the reference provided, then tell me, I’ll look for them (to the best of my ability) as I did with your request.

First this is not about "is Bukhari only the authentic book of hadith"! Its about the most authentic of your creed. Therefore academically within your creed, while you investigate the authenticity of other books, Bukhari needs no verification.

Second, here we talk about two contrasting hadith. Bukhari vs whatever [which is never among the 6 Sunni books of hadith]. You have a choice to declare to the whole world.

Sahih Bukhari's narration of UMAR IBN AL-KHATTAB FLEEING ALONG WITH OTHERS AND CLAIMING ITS ALLAH'S COMMAND [while Allah says NEVER run away from the pagan], IS IT FABRICATION or not? You cant eat your cake and have it. If you are proving by the book of God, I have no choice for all books will be examine by it and not vice versa.

AlBaqir:


And I express my gratitude with a bold statement that you do not provide a FULL REFERENCE. Besides, have you ever seen the Musnad of al-Bazzar kamilan before? Hardcopy or soft copy? I doubt it. Please prove me wrong by posting the scan pages of the cover page and the exact hadith. I will forever appreciate that. I'm still searching the athar with no success. Bro I doubt you ever verify your posted ahadith. You just copy somewhere. I can provide you in sha Allah with ALL the scan pages of my references.

Lol, I copy from the original scrolls and parchments lol. On a serious note, I don’t need to paste any scanned pages, if you want the hard copy, visit a library, you can start from Al ahzar in misra and last time I checked, google is still very useful in your quest… So you haven’t heard/seen of Musnad Al-Bazzaar, but I see the name in part of your reference?! … you and this your doubt, na only Allah (SWT) fit help you!

And what is a full reference? The name of the book is given, the name of the author is given, the number of the narration as recorded in the book is given, the sanad (chain) of narrators is given, the narration in Arabic and English is given, what other reference are you looking for Mr. AlBaqir?!

I even told you that I did my own search, and found the narration first in Suyuti’s book which was also referencing AlBazzar, then I looked for Musnad AlBazzar and found it there. I can’t help you do your own research bro.

AlBaqir:

Imam al-Ghazali, Imam Ibn Athir, Imam Sibt al-Jawzi and many others have "accused" Umar b. al-Khattab with more daring words. Why so much care about Albaqir? False accusations are what Islam forbid. Anyway Na your own cup of tea be that.

Bro, suspicion is a sin, so is slandering, backbiting and finding faults, these are what this your thread has revealed about you, and to a greater extent, shiism. I have quoted the Qur’an for you, and also the hadith of our beloved prophet (SAW). It is your choice to adhere to these Islamic teachings, or to deny it, mine is to only convey the truth about what Islam preaches.

AlBaqir:

# Did Umar died a Shaeed? Who killed Umar and why? Kindly educate me to relieve me of my fantasy. Aljannah Guaranteed! Ma sha Allah. That's another long debate. Lets finish one before derailing pls.

Oh please start another thread on how Umar (RA) wasn’t assassinated and died a martyr, please bro, you know I know nothing, perhaps you can open my eyes to what really happened…Perhaps it another Ummayad fabrications I have been taught….

AlBaqir:

Subhan'Allah! Sino, Umar is very sincere in his confession: "he said: by God, I had never doubted since I embraced Islam except on that day [at Hudaybiyyah]..."

And Quran is crystal clear in its definition of a believer: {The believers are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and do not doubt afterwards...}

Kindly do the Tafsir of that clear verse Alfa Sino. Evidently, more than 10 years with the Prophet of Allah (before Hudaybiyah) yet you doubt the Prophet, his decisions and commands, and that is nothing to you!

Imam Muslim on his Hudaybiyah narrations clearly quote al-Zuhayr who reported Umar saying he had to work "greatly" to emancipate for those doubting silly questions he was asking Rasul. Kindly request for the hadith.

NB: # In fact when it comes to confessions, Umar is sincere: 1. He confessed his Tarawih establishment was a "good BID'AH" yet people like you claimed without proof that he only used the word "BID'AH" in the linguistic sense that he was only establishing Sunnah. Umar exposed this filthy lies of his advocators by saying "The one (nawafil) they pray after awaken from sleep is BETTER than this one they are praying (referring to his 'good Bid'ah).
# At another confession, he revealed the Khilafah of Abu Bakr was a mistake but Allah saved them from its evil. He also revealed Abu Bakr's Khilafah was opposed by Ali and his supporters. Yet you people say with no proof that nothing like that happened.

Here's another one when the great caliph confessed he doubt the Prophet.

Bros, calm down, even the Prophet (SAW) did not react the way you want us to believe, if it was something that grave, the Prophet (SAW) would have made it known, but we read how the Prophet (SAW) responded to his companion, making him understand that this is a command by Allah (SWT), which is what a good leader would do, not start accusing him of disbelieve or being a hypocrite. Let us read a brief but proper analysis of the situation ofUmar (RA) at hudaybiyah:

"...However, two points in the treaty made it distasteful to some Muslims, namely they were not given access to the Holy Sanctuary that year, and the seemingly humiliating attitude as regards reconciliation with the pagans of Quraish. ‘Umar, unable to contain himself for the distress taking full grasp of his heart, went to the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and said: “Aren’t you the true Messenger of Allâh?” The Prophet (Peace be upon him) replied calmly, “Why not?” ‘Umar again spoke and asked: “Aren’t we on the path of righteousness and our enemies in the wrong?” Without showing any resentment, the Prophet (Peace be upon him) replied that it was so. On getting this reply he further urged: “Then we should not suffer any humiliation in the matter of Faith.” The Prophet (Peace be upon him) was unruffled and with perfect confidence said: “I am the true Messenger of Allâh, I never disobey Him, He shall help me.” “Did you not tell us,” rejoined ‘Umar, “that we shall perform pilgrimage?” “But I have never told you,” replied the Prophet (Peace be upon him), “that we shall do so this very year.” ‘Umar was silenced. But his mind was disturbed. He went to Abu Bakr and expressed his feelings before him. Abu Bakr who had never been in doubt as regards the Prophet’s truthfulness and veracity confirmed what the Prophet (Peace be upon him) had told him. In due course the Chapter of Victory (48th) was revealed saying:

“Verily, We have given you [O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)] a manifest victory.” [48:1]

The Messenger of Allâh (Peace be upon him) summoned ‘Umar and imported to him the happy tidings.

‘Umar was overjoyed, and greatly regretted his former attitude. He used to spend in charity, observe fasting and prayer and free as many slaves as possible in expiation for that reckless attitude he had assumed." (Ar-Raheeq Makhtum by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri page 174)

The above narration can be found in tafsir At-Tabari of surah 48 vs 1, if you want the Arabic, I'll gladly present it.

As I have mentioned in my previous post, no where else written can we find that Umar (RA) doubt the Prophet (SAW), he continued with the struggle of defending Islam. Funny enough, AlBaqir never quotes these other aspect of the hadith (i.e, that the Prophet (SAW) called Umar (RA) later to inform him of the good news from Allah (SWT). You can twist and turn the narration to fit into your prejudice, but your tactics are well know, assumptions, suspicions, conjectures and half truths.

AlBaqir:

Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) did gave answers to those insultive questions. Why did Umar need to go and meet Abu Bakr again after Prophet's clarifications and repeat ALL the questions he had asked the Messenger of Allah? Was Abu Bakr's assurance and confirmations more Sahih and heart assuring than that of the Prophet? Kindly use your logic and sense you pride so much of.

We’ve already read the full hadith, Umar (RA) went to Abu Bakr because he was still not in a good mood, so were other companions because they thought they were being humiliated on the truth. But Allah (SWT) sent down revelation so as to reassure them and put their mind at rest. And we read the Prophet (SAW) called Umar (RA,) knowing that he was the one most disturbed by the situation, to give him the glad tidings from Allah (SWT). Why did you think the Prophet (SAW) called Umar (RA)? We do believe these people (sahabas) were human, they make mistakes like anyone else, we do not start finding these mistakes (or lie) so as to tarnish their image or belittle them as you people are fond of doing.

AlBaqir:


@underline statement: Now you agree he did doubted the Prophet, and you are looking for evidence if such thing ever repeated itself.



# I refer you to the event of pen and paper that happened few days to the demise of the prophet. Abdullah ibn Abbas tagged it "CALAMITY OF THURSDAY". Umar and his cohorts refused the order of the Prophet. He said: "INDEED! The prophet has been possessed by his illness..." This caused a great uproar leading to some idiots accusing the Prophet of RAVING MADNESS. I have a thread rolling already.

# The expedition of Usama ibn Zaid ibn Harith is another great testimony. This is where the holy Prophet assigned an 18year old Usama as the leader of an Army comprises Abu Bakr, Umar and their cohorts. They refused to go to war with the Romans. This happened while the Prophet was on his sick bed too.

* Indeed! Sino, you get am for logic and sense Gann nnnnnn.

Yeah, yeah, bring your proof if you are truthful, bring the written text that says Umar (RA) doubted the messenger of Allah (SAW), I don’t want your assumptions and conjectures, if you cannot, then you are a liar, and you should seek forgiveness.

AlBaqir:

# Here again you left a clear verse unread. So lets examine the verse again:

{The believers (al-Mu'minin) are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and do not doubt afterwards, and they do Jihad with their wealth and with their lives, for the cause of Allah. They are the truthful ones."} [surah al-Hujurat:15]

And here's Umar's clear words: "We took oath to the effect that we would not flee, but we did not take oath to death.

Here's your pathetic word:

Na wa o, when you set out to go and fight Jihad, is that not fighting with your life?! Even if you go out to learn about the deen, you are doing Jihad with your wealth and life. I don’t know when death is the only translation of fighting with your life. Why do you keep going low bro, I’m really disappointed, what happened to your intellectual capacity?!

Again going on Jihad (fighting in this case) is not a suicide mission! You don't go to the battlefield with a mindset that you must die, if it is so, the Ummah would never had been victorious at all...this is simple na.

AlBaqir:

Are you saying Prophet doesn't have strategies Thereby he's sending them on a suicide missions? At Uhud, Prophet strategize his soldiers, they disobeyed him and things fell apart. They fled. He called and called them. They never pay heed. At Hunayn, even despite Prophet's strategies and Muslims outnumbering the pagans, they turned back.

So even if there is a need to retreat and restrategize, whose call is it? Prophet or the runners?

Sino, bring just one sahih evidence whereby the Prophet commanded the Sahabah to retreat. Just one Sahih hadith will do!

Were those who never fled no matter the situation fools?

Subhanallah! For every war which saw Muslims suffer, we read the reason behind it, Uhud, they disobeyed the messenger and left their position, Hunain, they thought victory comes from their great number. These are the mistakes made, not by the Prophet (SAW) but by Muslims. Naturally, man’s instinct is based on survival, no one needs to tell you to retreat when you face certain death, more so, they were the cause of their situation, in the battle of Hunain, Allah (SWT) sent down tranquility, and forces that people couldn't see to help the Muslims take control of the battle, Alah (SWT) was teaching us a valuable lesson, immediately they realized their folly, those who retreated came back and victory was achieved. Trying to use this scenario to undermine the companions of the prophet (SAW) is just lame and pathetic, Allah (SWT) did not use this to classify anybody as munafiq, ordinary Muslim or a Mu’min, these are issues of the heart which only Allah (SWT) knows, trying to say you know those who are this and that is just plain silly, you yourself don’t even know your status before Allah (SWT) talk more of those who were with the Prophet (SAW) and have passed away. You are not helping anybody finding faults in the companions of the Prophet (SAW), you are only deceiving yourself.

AlBaqir:


Oh! My bad! Perhaps my assumption is too much. Alfa Nla Sino, kindly shed light to the following questions:

# What was Umar and his colleagues doing in the garden while the people were at the warfront defending the trench?

# Why does he need to blame and woe Aisha (when she saw them in the garden) so much that she wished the ground open and swallow her? So much is the respect to the wife of the Prophet. Na Shia lo ro go.

# Why did Talhah (after removing his mask) need to fire back at Umar to keep shut that there is no escape today except with Allah?

# On whose authority were they in the garden while the Prophet and the believers were at the warfront?

* Kindly save your theories and answer those questions ( as derived exclusively from ahadith) providing Sahih evidence.

All these questions are silly, I was not present when the battle took place, Umar (RA) is not around to defend himself, so we only have reports which are mostly inadequate to have a true picture of what happened.

Secondly, the hadith did not name the garden, did not state how far the garden was from the battle field, did not give any information on what this group of Muslims was doing there. But it seems you find joy in being suspicious and imagining things that are not real.

You do not have any authentic narration that states Umar (RA) was hiding, you have no prove except your suspicions and conjectures, that is not intellectual at all; it is what is called market women gist, nothing tangible to hold on to.

AlBaqir:

# It seems you are hallucinating bro or Na the heat too much. You will need to provide a single evidence on this tread where in reference to battle of Khandaq, that I (Albaqir) ever claimed Umar and his cohorts flee. What I accused them of was hiding in a safe garden

Nah, no hallucination bro, you started with fleeing from battle, then jumped into hiding in a garden, both of which cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt by you by the way, just to defame Umar (RA), I was just surprised as to the transition, cos it seemed that the fleeing from battle with the Qur’anic verse to back up your argument was the main deal. I was wandering if you had a Qur’anic verse also to back your argument about hiding on the battlefield…But seems hiding is a lesser crime I guess?

AlBaqir:

# Oh!! Was it because of the weather that made Umar hide in that garden along with his cold-phobia colleagues?


A Look at the Battle of Trench
So much is your knowledge in Islamic history when you try to paint the scenario as if there was cold [bad weather] during the day of the battle. Obviously you are going all out, by any means to defend lies.

* The trench made by the Muslims prevented the allied forces of the disbelievers from entering Madinah. The two army faced each other with a huge trench between them.

* The battle took place in a broad-day light, and the real battle that ever took place was between Imam Ali (alaihim Salam) and Amr ibn Abd Wudd who managed to jumped the trench. Imam Ali cut Amr ibn Abd Wudd down. All Muslims did was preventing the enemies from crossing over the trench.

*After so many trial, the enemies retreated.

Kindly read these 2 long narrations in full (with different piece of info):

Al-Haithami documents:

# Obviously Umar b. al-Khattab was missing in action. Where was he?

# On a more friendly note, kindly provide me with Sahih evidences that Prophet did not pray Dhur and Asr on that day. Looking forward to that.

Another shallow comment, the narration states clearly how it was difficult for anyone including the Prophet (SAW) to leave their positions, they were held up all day with arrows being shot from all directions, but you ignored this, it doesn’t serve your assumptions and suspicions of Umar (RA). Must Umar (RA) always be by the side of the Prophet (SAW) at all battles?! Is there a narration that states that the Prophet (SAW) was looking for Umar (RA) on the day of khandaq?!

The narration of Aisha (RA) did not indicate Aisha (RA) was surprised to see the Muslims there, nor did she ask Umar and the Muslims what were they doing in the garden when the soldiers were fighting? If the garden was a "safe" hiding place, why would Umar (RA) say to Aisha (RA) “what made you think that you are safe of getting captured or get into trouble?! “ wouldn’t it have made more sense to tell her to quickly come and hide with them in this "safe" garden? Your assumptions and imaginations no carry you think like this?

Please stop insulting the sensibilities of the readers, we know the Arabs, even without being in a state of war cover their faces majorly due to their climate/weather, covering your face does not mean you are hiding, and if he was indeed hiding, why would he remove his covering only to be known and named by Aisha (RA), even his statement shows that he is a true believer who knows that there is no safe place to hide, escape or flee except towards Allah (SWT), is such a person who says this still hiding?!

And didn’t you think if Ummu – l – Mumineen Aisha (RA) believed that they were hiding from the battlefield, she wouldn’t have informed the messenger of Allah (SAW) her husband of the cowardice of these Muslims, who were hiding in the safe garden?! Or Allah (SWT) not reveals this to his Prophet (SAW) about the hiding people?! Think like a Muslim bro, all these your conjectures are not expected from one who profess faith.

And I remember my discussion with you on muta’a, where you said Umar (RA) was the one that prohibited Mut’a, and the other companions were afraid of him, that was why they didn’t go against him, and now, this is the Umar (RA) that you are also calling a coward, who flees from battle and hides, it seems you are confused about the personality of Umar (RA). It just doesn’t add up bro…

To your request, see الطبقات الكبرى volume 2 page 68-69 if you want the Arabic, I'll gladly provide it...

AlBaqir:

Baba Sino. Alfa Nla. Here we talk ISLAMIC JIHAD. It has rules and regulations. Kindly provide us of one of those rules whereby Prophet said "mask on"?! Such is your intellect comparing riots and "world wars" with Islamic holy Jihad under the banner of His grace, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace be upon him and his progeny).

What were they doing inside the garden with one masking his face? Answer those questions above with sahih evidences.

Why not answer me first bro, with sahih evidences that says Umar (RA) was hiding, if you cannot, then it is unnecessary for me to prove anything to you, you are the one with suspicions and assumptions, I don’t do such, if there is no report from any of the companions who were the true witnesses of this event that Umar (RA) was hiding, I wonder how Grand Sheikh AlBaqir came to the conclusion that he was hiding, perhaps you have started to receive revelations abi?

AlBaqir:

Alhamdulillah that you don't have issue with the sahih narration in Musnad Ahmad. So we can limit ourselves to that. @bold^ please say it again.

Obviously you agreed Umar RETURNED BACK AFTER BEING DEFEATED. That sealed the argument. Umar returned home defeated. Who defeated Umar, the great? So where's that so called strength of Umar... his sagacity...and fanciful talk that enemies used to run away for him?

Subhannallah! Astagfirullah! I had just realized that I didn’t even read the narration properly, the one which contained Umar (RA) being defeated is a weak narration as earlier pointed out, the one you quoted again from Musnad Imam Ahmad, does not contain such report i.e Abu Bakr(RA) and Umar (RA) being defeated. I have read another instance of the scenario being that, when Abu Bakr and Umar (RA) went to khaybar, the jews were locked up in their fortress, when Ali (RA) came, they then decided to have a face to face combat. I was of the impression that the other hadith was authentic, not knowing it was weak. So all other points you have raised are invalid, you don’t base your opinion on a weak hadith. So bro, there is no agreement between me and you that Abu Bakr (RA) and Umar (RA) were defeated at khaybar.

AlBaqir:

Heya such is the mindset of "Muslim" but never Believers who will laid down their lives in Jihad. You missed something in respect to that coward statement of yours. The Sahih Hadith of Ahmad says:

"Therefore, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, "I will tomorrow give the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger, and Allah and His Messenger love him too. He will not return unless he has achieved victory. So, we became absolutely certain that victory would be achieved the next day."

So you see say level pass level.

Let me for a moment agree with you, did the Prophet (SAW) say this (what he said to Ali (RA) ) to Umar (RA) and then Umar (RA) then return without being victorious? I asked you, why did the Prophet (SAW) still make Umar (RA) an Ameer to another expedition after this incidence? So you want me to join you in doing a contest between companions of the Prophet (SAW), so disappointing bro, when I should be busy emulating these companions with the abundant meritorious activities in which they did during their life time, you want to be putting sahabas of the prophet (SAW) on a level…This is petty and extremely irrelevant to ISLAM and MUSLIMS.

AlBaqir:

# Who designed the strategy, first for Abu Bakr, and second for Umar's unit; and they both successively failed and returned back defeated? Prophet or Abu Bakr or Umar? This is a sincere question you need to ask yourselves.

If it was the Prophet, obviously the failure failure can never be attributed to his grand divine design. And absolutely there is no way any troop will under the command of the Prophet without dispatching them with that divine strategy and Du'a. So what happened, Alfa Sino?

Imam Muslim gave a detailed narrations of Ali's conqueror of Khaybar. There was a fearless warrior at the castle called Marhab. He challenges with Duel fight. Duel battles, being the custom of the Arabs. Imam Muslim reported how Ali was challenged by Marhab for a duel fight. Ali responded and finished Marhab. The rest was history. Obviously, our dear Abu Bakr and Umar must have been challenged by Marhab for duel fight and RETURNED DEFEATED.

Indeed "believers are only those...who do Jihad with their wealth and their lives..."[Quran says].

Again asking questions that are not necessary, as asked earlier, is there any report where the Prophet (SAW) prophesied that Umar (RA) would achieve victory and he returned without victory? Even the companions all were assured that victory is certain when the Prophet (SAW) made that statement, that is to say, if such was said for Umar (RA) or any other sahaba, victory would be guaranteed.

AlBaqir:

Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) never mistaken in his decisions. Appointing Abu Bakr and Umar showed how he threw the opportunity open to show case their faith, valor, sagacity and bravery. So, after the two Sheiks had failed woefully, there is no point sending warrior below them in status. Thereby, prophet this time confirmed the status of a man he will send next. Prophet said that man will not turns back until he achieve victory {obviously, he never runs}. Even all the Sahabah that reported this agreed with that statement of the Prophet that victory is certain.

This based on a weak hadith, the authentic hadith didn't have the defeat story, be that as it may, I can see you not minding it to be weak, but you kept on hammering about authentic (sahih) narrations as if you people have any standard worth mentioning. Anyways, as proposed earlier, let me agree with you for a moment, So you now read the mind of the Prophet (SAW)? Or where is it written that he was testing them? Did he not send Umar on another expedition? Was he (SAW) still testing Umar again?! You think the Prophet (SAW) thinks in this childish and superficial way?! How do you even write these things and feel comfortable?! What report from the Prophet (SAW) have you read that states the Prophet (SAW) was testing his companions for faith, bravery and strength?! Please disabuse your mind from such, only Allah (SWT) test His slaves with calamities (like defeat, loss, pain) to know their level of patience, Iman, and taqwa. I said I won’t go low to such level as comparing the companions of the Prophet (SAW) and grading them, all would be rewarded by Allah (SWT), so shall we also be rewarded for our deeds. Bring an authentic narration that says Abu Bakr and Umar (RA) were defeated at khaybar, and they fled, if you cannot, then I have no other choice than to call you are a liar! SIMPLE!

AlBaqir:


# First, you have a task then to re-translate the verse. Don't you have the Arabic with you?

# Now lets review the ayahs altogether:

{Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you fled.} [surah tawbah:25]

Obviously after the fleeing of the largest number of Muslim army, then Allah sent sakinah upon the Prophet and the believers (the steadfast) [verse 26]. Quran made a clear distinction between a Muslim and a Mu'minin. Allah never sends sakinah upon "heart with fear". You need to be a believer (Mu'minin) with certain level of faith in your heart to receive His sakinah. Interestingly ALL the places in the Quran where sakinah was sent to the Prophet, it was in conjunction with "The Believers" EXCEPT surah Tawbah:40. Only the Prophet received the sakinah while his companion in the cave was denied of Allah's sakinah. Why? Because he exercise FEAR while the Prophet tells him "Do not fear, Allah is with us"! Sahih Bukhari/Muslim has a ample narrations on this.

Allah ONLY send Sakinah into a heart with degree of faith to STRENGTHENED and ADD to his established faith.

{He it is Who sent down tranquillity into the hearts of the believers that they might have more of faith added to their faith, and Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Knowing, Wise}[surah Fath:4]

The difference between Muslim and Mu'minin is express thus:

{The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit (aslamna); and faith has not yet entered into your hearts, and if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.{surah Hujurat: 14}

That's why some will ever be steadfast no matter be the situation. And some will always take their flight.



# Quran use the general term not me {THEN YOU FLED}, and the pronoun in the ayah only refer to the Muslims Not the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny)

# Prophet NEVER FLED AND NEVER RETREAT OR NEVER DEFEATED/SURRENDER.

# Ali is the self (clown) of the Prophet [Quran says], yet his Master (saws) boasts of him:{He (Ali) will not return except he achieved victory}.



First this is not about "is Bukhari only the authentic book of hadith"! Its about the most authentic of your creed. Therefore academically within your creed, while you investigate the authenticity of other books, Bukhari needs no verification.

Second, here we talk about two contrasting hadith. Bukhari vs whatever [which is never among the 6 Sunni books of hadith]. You have a choice to declare to the whole world.

Sahih Bukhari's narration of UMAR IBN AL-KHATTAB FLEEING ALONG WITH OTHERS AND CLAIMING ITS ALLAH'S COMMAND [while Allah says NEVER run away from the pagan], IS IT FABRICATION or not? You cant eat your cake and have it. If you are proving by the book of God, I have no choice for all books will be examine by it and not vice versa.

It seems you skipped reading my response on this issue earlier, i'll help post it again for you to digest slowly:

Muhammad bin Ishaq, the Imam of Maghazi, narrates from ‘Aasim bin ‘Umar bin Qatadah from Abdur-Rahman bin Jabir bin ‘Abdullah from his father and in it he mentions those who remained with the Prophet (saw):
Among his family members:
1. ‘Ali
2. Abu Sufyan bin Harith bin ‘Abdul Muttalib
3. Rabi’ah bin Harith bin ‘Abdul Muttalib
4. Fadhl bin ‘Abbas
5. ‘Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib
Among others:
1. Abu Bakr
2. ‘Umar
3. Usamah bin Zaid
4. Ayman bin ‘Ubaid
It was recorded by Ibn Hisham in Seerah (2/443), Ahmad bin Hanbal in Musnad (15027) and Al-Bayhaqi in Dalail an-Nubuwwah (5/126-127). Most of the authors on Seerah do mention it.

At-Tirmidi narrated: After giving chain of narrator till Ibn Umar who said: I have seen on the day of Hunain two groups turned their backs and there was with the messenger of Allah (saw) 100 men.

Ahmed and Al-Hakim narrated from hadeeths of Abdul Rahman bin Abdullah bin Masud from his father who said: “We were with the messenger of Allah (saw) on the day of Hunain when people deserted him, and those who stood firm where 80 men from Muhajirin and Al-Ansar.

We say: There is an agreement that a group of companions remained with the Prophet (saw) and they did not flee. In a tradition narrated by Tirmidhi (1689) –Ibn Hajar said it is Hasan and Al-Albani considered it Sahih – through Ibn ‘Umar (ra) that less than hundred people remained with the Prophet (saw) during Hunain. Hence, as long as there is a possibility that a companion could be among those who were steady with the Prophet (saw) one must abstain from speculating that such and such person fled from the battlefield. If Allah wanted to character-assassin someone He would have done so by taking names but rather He forgave them. We know from the above narration that Abu Bakr and ‘Umar were steady in the battlefield, but even those who are not mentioned should not be accused directly of fleeing unless if there is a proof that so and so person left the battlefield. This is the best and safe methodology based on Qur’anic principles.

Also, it is to be mentioned that after fleeing from the battlefield they returned back to the Prophet (saw). Hence, they were forgiven by Allah.
Another thing is that they did not flee because they were coward. Qur’an never calls them coward. If they were coward then how come they came to face the enemy who was larger in number? Even when they left away they returned back again to fight with the enemy. A coward never endangers his life for someone else. We know the cases of hypocrites who would leave the army before entering the battlefield or rather give excuses to not join the battle. The Hunain incident was in when the army of Hawazin all of a sudden started shooting arrows, so the Muslims were shattered and dispersed to save their life leaving aside the Messenger of Allah(saw). This no doubt was a sin but Allah had forgiven them and they again went for Tabuk to fight for the cause of Allah.

Narrated Abu Qatada: We set out in the company of Allah’s Messenger (saw) on the day (of the battle) of Hunain. When we faced the enemy, the Muslims retreated and I saw a pagan throwing himself over a Muslim. I turned around and came upon him from behind and hit him on the shoulder with the sword He (i.e. the pagan) came towards me and seized me so violently that I felt as if it were death itself, but death overtook him and he released me. I followed `Umar bin Al Khattab and asked (him), “What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?” He replied, “This is the Will of Allah,” (Sahih al-Bukhari #3142)

Sharh Muslim (by Imam Nawawi)
Imam Al-Nawawi commenting on this hadeeths said…that the retreat or defeat was in some of the army (not all).

Sharh Bukhari (by Ibn Hajar)
Similar comment was also made by Ibn Hajr in his sharh Bukhari who said: ‘and it is mentioned in the narration of Al-Laith which will follow that they were defeated, but (the defeat was) after the story which Abu Qatada mentioned, and it has been preceded in the hadeeths of Al-Bar’a that all were not defeated

Hadeeth and Books of Seerah explicitly state that Umar(ra) was among those who did not flee.

(i). We read the SAHIH Hadith in “Musnad Ahmad” volume 23 page 274 Hadith #14731:
Ya’qoub narrated from his Father from Ibn Ishaq from ‘Assim ibn ‘Umar bin Qatada from ‘Abdul-Rahman ibn Jabir from Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah: The people retreated but the Prophet(saw) was accompanied by a group from the Mouhajirun and the Ansar and his Ahlul-Bayt, Those who held their ground and stayed with him were Abu Bakr an ‘Umar and from his Ahlul-Bayt ‘Ali ibn abi Talib and al-‘Abbas bin ‘Abdul-Mutallib and his son al-Fadl and Abu Suffiyan bin al-Harith and Raba’iyah bin al-Harith and Ayman bin ‘Ubeid and he is ibn Umm-Ayman and Usamah ibn Zaid, he said: and a Man from Hawzan (until the end of the narration).

(ii). This is also mentioned in the book “Majma’a al-Zawaed” under “Kitab al-Maghazi wal Siyar” in the chapter “Ghazwat Hunein” Hadith # 10265:

(iii). Al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya of Ibn Kathir:
It mentions the names of those who stood firm with prophet…(and group of Al-Ansar: Among them Abu Bakr, Umar and Abbas…)
Similarly, we read in Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
There remained between a hundred and eighty Companions with the Prophet . These included Abu Bakr, `Umar, Al-`Abbas, `Ali, Al-Fadl bin `Abbas, Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith, Ayman the son of Umm Ayman and Usamah bin Zayd. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

(iv). Al-Seerah Al-Nabawi of ibn Hisham:
Those who stood firm with the Messenger :
And those who stood firm with him from among the Muhajirin were Abu Bakr and Umar, and from Ahlul Bayt Ali bin Abi Talib and Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib…

(v). Tariq Al-Rusool Wal-Mulook of At-Tabari
At-Tabari narrated in his book Tariq Al-Rusool Wal-Mulook where he mentions the firmness of Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali (may Allah be pleased with them all) on the day of Al-Hunain.
There remain with Messenger of Allah (saw) group of Muhajirin and Ansar and from his Ahlul Bait. And among those who stood firm from Al-Muhajirin were Abu Bakr, Umar and from his Ahlul Bayt Ali bin Abi Talib, Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib,…

(vi). Al-Maghazi

Al-Waqidi in his book Al-Maghazi mentions hadeeths of Jabir bin Abdullah
The Messenger of Allah (saw) remained with a group of al-Muhajirin and al-Ansaar and from his Ahlul Bait Al-Abbas, Ali, Al-Fadl bin Abbas, Abu Sufyan Ibn Al-Harith and Rabee’a bin Al-Harith…. Abu Bakr and Umar.

(vii). Zaad Al-Ma’ad
Imam ibnul Qayyim(rh) in his book Zaad Al-Ma’ad mentions same hadeeths of Jabir bin Abdullah but through different narrator.
And there remain with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings upon him) group from al-Muhajirin and al-Ansaar and from his Ahlul Bait, among them who stood firm from al-Muhajirin were Abu Bakr and Umar, and from his Ahlul Bayt Ali, Al-Abbas….

(viii). Al-Seerat al-Halabiyah
The Messenger (saw) moved to his right and with him were few people, among them Abu Bakr and Umar and Ali and Abbas and his son, Al-fadel Abu Sufyan….. those who stood firm with him (saw) there are different narrations, it is said hundred, and it is said eighty, and it is said twelve, and it is said ten, and it is said three hundred.

(ix). Muhammad bin Ishaq, the Imam of Maghazi, narrates from ‘Aasim bin ‘Umar bin Qatadah from Abdur-Rahman bin Jabir bin ‘Abdullah from his father and in it he mentions those who remained with the Prophet (saw): Among his family members: ‘Ali, Abu Sufyan bin Harith bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, Rabi’ah bin Harith bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, Fadhl bin ‘Abbas, ‘Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib. Among others: Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, Usamah bin Zaid, Ayman bin ‘Ubaid [It was recorded by Ahmad bin Hanbal in Musnad (15027) and Al-Bayhaqi in Dalail an-Nubuwwah (5/126-127).]

By reading this hadeeth carefully and also after looking at other reports, the event thus can be explained in the following manner: “When the enemy launched its brutal and surprise attack on Muslim fighters, Abu Qatada was busy fighting and repelling the aggression when all of a sudden he notices that Muslims forces retreating, so in a confused state he too retreats with them. While retreating, he notices Umar(ra) among group of people (i.e. steadfast fighters) and asks him about the retreat of those Muslim fighters. To that Umar(ra) replies, “It is the decree of Allah”.

On your accusation of Umar saying it is the decree of Allah,

If the Rafidah(Saba’ees) are unaware of something called Qadha and Qadr or Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz, then they must take some basic Islamic education before criticizing Sahaba out of ignorance. Everything which happens, good or bad is Allah’s decree upon his slave. Similarly when Umar (ra) was asked why were Muslims defeated or fleeing, his reply was of a steadfast believer, that is “It was Allah’s will or decree”
We read in Quran: {No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah}. (Quran 57:22)

Infact it was Allah’s will that Muslims should be taught a lesson, so that they never again take up the notion that victory could be gained by large numbers, but victory only comes from Allah.

[Truly Allah has given you victory on many battle fields, and on the Day of Hunain (battle) when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, vast as it is, was straitened for you, then you turned back in flight. (Quran 9:25)]

So the decree of Allah on the day of Al-Hunain was to give victory to Muslims just with few steadfast fighters (like Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali etc)..…so indeed how true were the words of the great Sahabi Umar (ra) when he said… “It is the decree of Allah”.

NB: I omitted the Arabic scripts, the fear of spam bot is the beginning of wisdom

^Lol. ...

I still don't understand what exactly is albaqir's interest castigating baami(RA)

Empiree:
^Lol. ...

I still don't understand what exactly is albaqir's interest castigating baami(RA)

Brother mi, I don't really get him, as Muslims, the best example to follow is the Prophet (SAW), and then his companions, which also includes his ahl-l-bayt. No where have we read that the prophet (SAW) accused Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman of what AlBaqir and his cohorts accuse them of, Ali(RA) respected and gave his allegience to them.

Albaqir, kindly watch this video from 28:00 (mins) see the consequences of castigating Sahaba. You'd better desist from saying negative things about Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman(RA).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSCGcbR8wiU

sino:

Bro, suspicion is a sin, so is slandering, backbiting and finding faults, these are what this your thread has revealed about you, and to a greater extent, shiism. I have quoted the Qur’an for you, and also the hadith of our beloved prophet (SAW). It is your choice to adhere to these Islamic teachings, or to deny it, mine is to only convey the truth about what Islam preaches.

Suspicion? Slandering? Backbiting? Finding fault? Oh boy, Na where you see all that? There are facts in your books against Umar b. al-Khattab.

1. Imam Muslim documents Ali and Abbas thought of Abu Bakr and Umar. Umar himself confessed:

"When the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, died, Abu Bakr said: "I am the walī of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him.".... So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (i.e. Abu Bakr) to be a LIAR, SINFUL, A TRAITOR and DISHONEST. And Allāh knows that he was really truthful, pious, rightly-guided and a follower of the truth. Abu Bakr died and I became the wali of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and the wali of Abu Bakr. So both of you thought me to be a LIAR, SINFUL, A TRAITOR and DISHONEST. {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi), vol. 3, p. 1376, #1757}

2. Imam al-Ghazali (d. 450 H) writes:

The people and scholars agree upon the context of the narration of the sermon on the day of Ghadir Khum in which the Prophet (saw) said, "Whoever I am the Mawla then Ali (a) is the Mawla." Then Umar Ibn Khattab said: 'Congratulations! Oh Abal Hasan, you have become my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer.'

This shows his (Umar) submission and acceptance and confirmation (of Ali's Mawla-ship). However after that, he (i.e Umar) was defeated by his desire and love of power in flag of leadership, and he was dominated by desire, and the desire to hold the flag of Caliphate, and the joy to open and conquer states, and by that they (i.e Umar and his cohorts) reverted to the early phase, they dispensed with the agreement (of Ghadir Khum) and sold it at a low price. And also the Prophet (saw) in his last illness before his death said: "Bring me a tablet and ink-pot, so that I may write for you a document by following which you will never go astray" whereupon Umar said: "Don't bring it, the man is talking nonsense.'"

Ref: Sirr al-Alamayn wa kash'f ma fid Darayn, pg.23.

Imam Sibt b. Jawzi also quoted this in his: Tadhkirat Ul-Khawa'is, pg.62.

3. Imam Ibn Athir writes:

In the narrations of the illness of Allah's Apostle (saws), they said: "What is wrong with him? Has he lost his consciousness? Ask him." It means that 'is the Prophet talking nonsense because of his illness.' they wanted to know, and it means that 'is he delirious because of his illness?' This is the best way to interpret that narration and it should not be said as a declarative sentence, because it means either talking nonsense or delirious. AND THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS UMAR, AND THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST HIM.

Ref: Al-Nihaya Fi Gharib Al-Hadith, vol.1, p.#246.

While to Allah alone is the truth, ALL these are facts not suspicion, slandering, backbiting as you paint it. Just like Imam Athir said, "...this is not an accusation made against him". I (Albaqir) say: IT IS RATHER A FACT.

sino:

Oh please start another thread on how Umar (RA) wasn’t assassinated and died a martyr, please bro, you know I know nothing, perhaps you can open my eyes to what really happened…Perhaps it another Ummayad fabrications I have been taught….

A thread is coming in sha Allah. We don't need to derail this like I said earlier.

sino:

"...However, two points in the treaty made it distasteful to some Muslims, namely they were not given access to the Holy Sanctuary that year, and the seemingly humiliating attitude as regards reconciliation with the pagans of Quraish. ‘Umar, unable to contain himself for the distress taking full grasp of his heart, went to the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and said: “Aren’t you the true Messenger of Allâh?” The Prophet (Peace be upon him) replied calmly, “Why not?” ‘Umar again spoke and asked: “Aren’t we on the path of righteousness and our enemies in the wrong?” Without showing any resentment, the Prophet (Peace be upon him) replied that it was so. On getting this reply he further urged: “Then we should not suffer any humiliation in the matter of Faith.” The Prophet (Peace be upon him) was unruffled and with perfect confidence said: “I am the true Messenger of Allâh, I never disobey Him, He shall help me.” “Did you not tell us,” rejoined ‘Umar, “that we shall perform pilgrimage?” “But I have never told you,” replied the Prophet (Peace be upon him), “that we shall do so this very year.” ‘Umar was silenced. But his mind was disturbed. He went to Abu Bakr and expressed his feelings before him. Abu Bakr who had never been in doubt as regards the Prophet’s truthfulness and veracity confirmed what the Prophet (Peace be upon him) had told him. In due course the Chapter of Victory (48th) was revealed saying:

“Verily, We have given you [O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)] a manifest victory.” [48:1]

The Messenger of Allâh (Peace be upon him) summoned ‘Umar and imported to him the happy tidings.

‘Umar was overjoyed, and greatly regretted his former attitude. He used to spend in charity, observe fasting and prayer and free as many slaves as possible in expiation [size=25pt]for that reckless attitude he had assumed[/size]." (Ar-Raheeq Makhtum by Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri page 174)

The above narration can be found in tafsir At-Tabari of surah 48 vs 1, if you want the Arabic, I'll gladly present it.

First underline sentence: In one word Umar DOUBTED the Prophet.

Excellent! Bravo!! Ofvarin!!! This is my point bro. Allahu Akbar! Sino used (or unknowingly copied the word "RECKLESS ATTITUDES" to describe Umar. When have you become a Shia? That language is hot! I thought only Shia used that. Betatron, Empiree, MrOlai et al can you beat that?

There are lots of command in the Quran where Allah commanded the Sahabah to follow the Prophet unconditionally without questioning.
Based on that, attitude of Umar was reckless.Those questions were silly.

I also told you the report in Bukhari by al-Zuhri showed that Umar said he need to work extra to expiate his silly attitudes. Am glad you quote it yourself rather than defending his only expressing his anger.

Therefore, it makes perfect sense when Umar himself confessed his RECKLESS ATTITUDES on that day:

Umar b. al-Khattab:
"By Allah! I NEVER DOUBTED SINCE I ACCEPTED ISLAM EXCEPT ON THAT DAY (Hudaybiyah). So, I went to the Prophet, peace be upon him, and said, "Are you not truly the Messenger of Allah?"

So Mr sino, dont take it upon us (the Shia) when we quote the holy Quran verbally saying: "The Believer are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, AND DO NOT DOUBT AFTERWARDS...

sino:

Bros, calm down, even the Prophet (SAW) did not react the way you want us to believe, if it was something that grave, the Prophet (SAW) would have made it known, but we read how the Prophet (SAW) responded to his companion, making him understand that this is a command by Allah (SWT), which is what a good leader would do, not start accusing him of disbelieve or being a hypocrite.

Heh...who told you Prophet no angry and react? Mind you it was not Umar alone. It was he along his usual culprits.

No doubt Prophet had the most exalted character. But when nuisance and reckless attitudes become increase and especially from a senior Sahabi, naturally Prophet reacts.

# Imam Al-Waqidi documents:

Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudri said: "... Umar and some of the men of companions of the Prophet (saw) who were with Umar said: 'Didn't you tell us that you will enter the Ka`ba and hold the door of it and and perform Tawaf around it?' And now neither our sacrifices reached Makkah nor we.' He said: 'Did I tell you that we would visit the Ka`ba this year?' Umar said: 'No.' The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, 'So you will enter the Ka’ba, and I will hold the door of Ka’ba and shave my head and your heads in the center of Makkah and will perform Tawaf around it?' "Then He came to Umar and said: 'Did you forget the day of Uhud when you were going up, and paid no heed for anyone, and I was calling you from behind? [Qur’aan 3:153], Did you forget the day of Al-Ahzaab (battle of Khandaq) that their army came on you from above and from below, and when your eyes swerved and your hearts leaped to your throats? [Qur’aan 33:10] And the Messenger of Allah (saw) kept asking them, did you forget the day of such and such? Until the Muslims said: 'Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw) told the truth, O Messenger of Allah (saw), we had not thought what you had, you are more knowledgeable in Allah (swt) and His decisions than us.' When the Messenger of Allah (saw) entered the Ka’ba next year and shaved his head, he said: 'This is what I had promised to you'. On the day of Fath (conquering Makkah) he took the door of Ka’ba and said: 'Bring Umar Ibn Al-Khattab to me!' And then said: 'This is what I told you.' And when it was Hajjatul Wida he said: 'O Umar, this is what I told you.' Then Umar said: 'O Messenger of Allah (saw), yes there is no victory greater than this victory in Islam.'

Ref: Al-Maghazi. Vol. 2, Pg. # 609

I (albaqir) say: Absolutely there is no better way of convincing DOUBTER(S) other than showing him manifest evidences.

sino:

As I have mentioned in my previous post, no where else written can we find that Umar (RA) doubt the Prophet (SAW), he continued with the struggle of defending Islam. Funny enough, albaqir never quotes these other aspect of the hadith (i.e, that the Prophet (SAW) called Umar (RA) later to inform him of the good news from Allah (SWT).

Umar did worst than that (i.e doubting) at Prophet's sick bed. A thread is already opened for you to reply. We don't need to derail this further. Empiree can gist you. And besides I have given you above Al-Ghazali and Ibn Athir's submissions. Meaning he continued his RECKLESS ATTITUDES.

sino:

We’ve already read the full hadith, Umar (RA) went to Abu Bakr because he was still not in a good mood, so were other companions because they thought they were being humiliated on the truth. But Allah (SWT) sent down revelation so as to reassure them and put their mind at rest. And we read the Prophet (SAW) called Umar (RA,) knowing that he was the one most disturbed by the situation, to give him the glad tidings from Allah (SWT).

# First you've admitted yourself that such attitudes of Umar were RECKLESS. And you admitted Umar went to Abu Bakr who had never doubted the Prophet before. Now Listen to yourself again using "not in a good mood". And I put it to you that going to meet Abu Bakr for confirmations thereby calmed down instead of Prophet's answers to his questions is a Salt upon your injury. If Prophet cannot convince you, who else will do?

# Second, there is no record that other sahabah (Umar's gangs) asked those reckless questions directly from the Prophet. Though they were also showing their reckless grievances.

Imam al-Dhahabi also have a nice document on this just like al-Waqidi quoted above.

Third, @cancelled. He was the most doubter with RECKLESS ATTITUDES.

sino:

Na wa o, when you set out to go and fight Jihad, is that not fighting with your life?! Even if you go out to learn about the deen, you are doing Jihad with your wealth and life. I don’t know when death is the only translation of fighting with your life. Why do you keep going low bro, I’m really disappointed, what happened to your intellectual capacity?! Again going on Jihad (fighting in this case) is not a suicide mission! You don't go to the battlefield with a mindset that you must die

Honestly you are right and I agree with you. You cant blame me for I assumed too much from your man not realizing he's just being over-hyped. However the believers are always pray for death in the battlefield. They want to become Sha'eed and meet their beloved (Allah) quick. In fact they are always overjoyed whenever there is battle with Mushriqun.

Listen to Umm al-Mu'minin Aisha as she witnessed the battle of Khandaq:
she said: Sa'd passed by singing epic verses: 'Very soon the battle of the brave man begins...what a good thing it is that the DEATH COMES"

Indeed only the brave men wish to meet death in the battlefield. Cowards will run, turn back, jumping like mountain goats, and hide in a garden.

Salute the brave, the dead: Hahoo! Hahoo!! Hahoo!!!

sino:

Subhanallah! For every war which saw Muslims suffer, we read the reason behind it, Uhud, they disobeyed the messenger and left their position, Hunain, they thought victory comes from their great number. These are the mistakes made, not by the Prophet (SAW) but by Muslims. Naturally, man’s instinct is based on survival, no one needs to tell you to retreat when you face certain death, more so, they were the cause of their situation, in the battle of Hunain, Allah (SWT) sent down tranquility, and forces that people couldn't see to help the Muslims take control of the battle, Alah (SWT) was teaching us a valuable lesson, immediately they realized their folly, those who retreated came back and victory was achieved...

Ma sha Allah brother. I agree 100%. That's why the steadfast believer who NEVER RUN can NEVER be equated with those who run, and later realize their mistakes and then come back. If Prophet is murdered in the space of their flight, that would be disastrous for this Ummah and I don't see what they can do to expiate for that.

sino:

I was not present when the battle took place, Umar (RA) is not around to defend himself, so we only have reports which are mostly inadequate to have a true picture of what happened.

Fair enough @underlined. But information given in the hadith is enough to ask questions which you ran away from answering. Lets take it again.

sino:

Secondly, the hadith did not name the garden, did not state how far the garden was from the battle field, did not give any information on what this group of Muslims was doing there. But it seems you find joy in being suspicious and imagining things that are not real.

# Agreed the hadith never named the garden.

# Bold, we have vital information as per its location. Aisha said:
{"I went out in the day of Al-Khandaq and I was standing behind the people, then I heard sounds of ground coming from behind me, I turned around and saw Sa'd Ibn Ma'az and his nephew ..."}

Aisha never made it upfront where the trench is. She only stood behind the warriors who were manning the trench preventing the enemies. This is some meters away from the trench (backward where people were standing).

She (Aisha) continues:
Then I entered a garden, and I saw that a group of people who had been there, among them was Umar Ibn al-Khattab.

* {"Then" Means: 'soon afterwards'}
* {I entered a garden - meaning she's no longer behind the warriors. Obviously she was not moving forward but going backward}

The fact that Aisha was at the back of EVERYONE, all indication is that the garden was AT THE BACK of the people.

You have the right to re-evaluate my submissions if it is faulty in anyway.

sino:

You do not have any authentic narration that states Umar (RA) was hiding, you have no prove except your suspicions and conjectures, that is not intellectual at all; it is what is called market women gist, nothing tangible to hold on to.

Surah Ahzab: 10 - 16 clearly revealed the home of everyone (BEHIND the battlefield) is SECURE. What were they doing in the garden BEHIND THE BRAVE WARRIORS?

sino:

Another shallow comment, the narration states clearly how it was difficult for anyone including the Prophet (SAW) to leave their positions, they were held up all day with arrows being shot from all directions, but you ignored this,

No I did not. That was the reason I quoted two long narrations. Probably you did not read it. Muslims were defending until Allah's troop (wind) dispelled the evil allied parties. Whichever way (whether I ignore or not) I don't have any problem with this. 100%.

sino:

it doesn’t serve your assumptions and suspicions of Umar (RA). Must Umar (RA) always be by the side of the Prophet (SAW) at all battles?! Is there a narration that states that the Prophet (SAW) was looking for Umar (RA) on the day of khandaq?!

@Bold, it is a privilege to always be where His grace is. Not to mention the fact that Quran says: {Say (O Muhammad): 'If you love Allah, follow me...}

# Why would Prophet be looking for Umar when: {"If you help him (Muhammad) not, (it is no matter): For GOD did Indeed help him..."} [Quran].

# Why would Prophet be looking for Umar when he himself was ever busy preventing the evil allied forces from crossing the trench?!

# Why would Prophet be looking for Umar when the BRAVEST warrior (Ali), who never back down until victory is achieved, is by his side?

It is for Umar's sake to be by Prophet's side all the time and follow his every step. That is the only one thing that guarantee Allah's love and forgiveness.

sino:

The narration of Aisha (RA) did not indicate Aisha (RA) was surprised to see the Muslims there, nor did she ask Umar and the Muslims what were they doing in the garden when the soldiers were fighting? If the garden was a "safe" hiding place, why would Umar (RA) say to Aisha (RA) “what made you think that you are safe of getting captured or get into trouble?! “ wouldn’t it have made more sense to tell her to quickly come and hide with them in this "safe" garden? Your assumptions and imaginations no carry you think like this?

If we are to judge by Bukhari's documentation, Aisha should be around 9 - 11years at 5 A.H. Obviously, a small girl of her age is not expected outside AT ALL near the battlefield. So even coming out, making it to the field (behind the warriors), seeing warriors coming from her back and entering the field is too much.

# So Aisha's getting outside to the field is illegal therefore asking what Umar and his colleagues in their "safe haven" doing is not wise. Besides how will a child question men older enough to be her grandpas'. It is considered to be rude anywhere there is sense of humour.

# Umar came with the first attack.
Upon seeing Aisha when she entered, {Umar said: 'woe to you, what brought you here?! By God you are a bold woman, what made you think that you are safe of getting captured or get into trouble! She (Aisha) said: 'He kept blaming me so much until I wished that the earth splits so that I enter into it.'}.

# @underlined, I laughed in Ijebu. A good man will rather send the child back home where her mate hides under their mothers. After all the garden is at the back of the battlefield and absolutely enemies never crossed the trench, not to mention of defeating the Muslims or entering the city.

sino:

Please stop insulting the sensibilities of the readers, we know the Arabs, even without being in a state of war cover their faces majorly due to their climate/weather, covering your face does not mean you are hiding, and if he was indeed hiding, why would he remove his covering only to be known and named by Aisha (RA), even his statement shows that he is a true believer who knows that there is no safe place to hide, escape or flee except towards Allah (SWT), is such a person who says this still hiding?!

# Arabs use their turbans to cover their nose down not eyes. They only use the same turban to cover their eyes when wind blow sands/particles. This time, they are inside the garden (where there can be no wind blowing) and none of the warriors seen by Aisha outside going to the battlefield used mask, where there might be strong wind. The hadith says the man used MASK TO COVER HIS FACE (not even Turban).

# Once the ring leader (Umar) has been seen, and apparently others too, what's the point of the man-in-mask continue covering his face? Asiri ti tu naw.

# Talhah's statement of submission (to fate) was only out after he had fired back at Umar (to shot his mouth) who was raining woes on poor little Aisha, the great discoverer. Talhah said: {'Woe to you Umar! You said too much today, where is the place to escape or flee except towards Allah?'}

This statement clearly revealed those Sahabah were hiding but upon their busted plans, Talhah finally resigned to fate.
Quran revealed that EVERYBODY'S eye and throat is up not knowing what could befell.

sino:

And didn’t you think if Ummu – l – Mumineen Aisha (RA) believed that they were hiding from the battlefield, she wouldn’t have informed the messenger of Allah (SAW) her husband of the cowardice of these Muslims, who were hiding in the safe garden?! Or Allah (SWT) not reveals this to his Prophet (SAW) about the hiding people?!

# That is "suicide" telling the Prophet because she herself went out illegally. So its a case of covering each other's secret - "mon sinu mon sikun"

What was Aisha, a girl of 9, doing outside very near the battlefield? That can never be sanctioned by the Prophet.

# Una don made Allah revealer of every event. One of the most daring event in the life of the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) was the assassination attempt on his blessed life by a group of Munafiq among the Sahabah on his way back from Tabuk.

The event never merited a single ayah in the Quran. There are other daring events like that which never made it to the Quran.

If you fight in the battle, wounded or killed; or you choose to hide or sit at home, it does not hurt Allah and His Prophet in anyway. Everything you do, it is for your own sake. Please don't ask such a question again o.

sino:

And I remember my discussion with you on muta’a, where you said Umar (RA) was the one that prohibited Mut’a, and the other companions were afraid of him, that was why they didn’t go against him, and now, this is the Umar (RA) that you are also calling a coward, who flees from battle and hides, it seems you are confused about the personality of Umar (RA). It just doesn’t add up bro…

Umar's prohibition of Mut'ah was during his Khilafah. By that time, he had assumed the military and financial authority as against during the time of the Prophet.

1. Imam Muslim documents:

Ibn Abbas: I hesitated for a year, and I had intended to ask 'Umar b. al-Khattab concerning a verse. But I could not ask him OUT OF FEAR OF HIM, until he went out for Hajj and I accompanied him....and (I) said, "O Amir al-Mu'minin! Who were the two women who helped each other against the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, among his wives? He replied, "They were Hafsah and Aishah."
Ref: Sahih Muslim, vol.2, p.1105, #1479(31).

# During the time of the Prophet, you can read how Talhah rebuked him when he was woeing and blaming Aishah: 'Woe to you Umar! You said too much today...

Though at other times (during the lifetime of the Prophet), Umar used to be harsh to people especially the women. But Prophet always came to their rescue. Example:

2. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal reports:

When Ruqayyah daughter of the Messenger of Allah (saw) died, the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Join our good friend, Uthman Ibn Madh‘oon," whereupon the women started to cry. Then Umar started to beat them with his whip, whereupon the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "Let them cry!" And then said to the women: "But be careful not to whoop like Satan!" And then continued: "When the eye weeps and the heart becomes sad for a person, it is from Allah the Almighty and of His mercy, and what comes from the hand and the tongue it is from the Satan..."

Sheik al-Arnaut: This Hadeeth is Sahih

Ref: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. Vol. 3, Pg. # 345 - 346


3. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also documents:

(About women in attendance at a funeral) what Ibn Abi Shayba has narrated is a proof, he has narrated it through Muhammad Ibn Amr Ibn Ata from Abi Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (saw) was in a funeral and Umar saw a women who cried. Umar shouted at her and the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "O Umar leave her alone!" ....

Ref: Fathul Bari Sharh Saheeh Al-Bukhari. Vol. 4, Pg. # 18 - 19

Narrations are too many on Umar's harsh attitudes.

He Continues After The Death of the Prophet
Traditions aplenty here too. Example:

4. Imam Al-Tabari:

Narrated Younis from Ibn Wahab from Younis Ibn Yazid from Al-Zahri from Sa’eed Ibn Mosayyib who said: 'When Abu Bakr died, A'isha held a mourning gathering for him in which eulogies had been read, Umar was informed of it, so he came to her door and forbade them from mourning on Abu Bakr. They (the women) refused, so he (Umar) said to Hisham Ibn Al-Walid: "Enter and bring out for me the daughter of Abi Qohafa sister of Abi Bakr," when A'isha heard this she said to Hisham: "I forbid you from entering into my house!" Umar said to Hisham: "Enter, I allow you to do that!" So Hisham entered and brought out Umme Farwa sister of Abi Bakr to Umar, whereupon Umar started beating her with his whip for a while, when the mourners heard this they escaped.

Ref: Tarikh Al-Tabari. Vol. 3, Pg. # 423

5. Imam Abdul Razzaq Al-San‘ani:

Abdul Razaq - Ibn Oyaina - Amr Ibn Dinaar who said:

'When Khalid bin Al-Waleed died, the women gathered in the house of Maymoona (wife of the Messenger of Allah) and were crying, so Umar came and Ibn Abbas was with him and Umar had his whip (Darrah) with him, so he said: "O Aba Abdullah! Enter the house of the mother of believers and tell her to take her veil, and bring out the women for me," he said: Then he brought them out and Umar was hitting them with his whip, so the veil of one of those woman fell, whereupon the people said to Umar: "O Amir Al-Momineen! Her veil!" So he said: "so be it! She has no honour!" And Mo’ammar was astonished by his saying: "She has no honour!"

Ref: Al-Musannaf al' San'ani. Vol. 3, Pg. # 557

Umar's Treatment of Slaves

6. Imam Ibn Hajar:

Narration of Umar: "Take off your your veil, you stinky! Are you resembling yourself to free women?" I haven’t seen it in this form, but it is famously known that Umar has beaten a slave-girl who had veil and he said "Take off your veil, and do not resemble yourself to free women", it has been narrated by AbdulRazaq through an Authentic chain. And from Abdulrazaq from Ibn Jarij who said: "Umar beat Aqeela a slave-girl of Abi Musa because she wore Jilbaab (full veil)."

And Ibn Abi Shayba recorded another incident through an Authentic chain from Anas that:

Umar saw a slave-girl wearing Jilbaab (Full veil), whereupon he said: "Have you been freed?" She said: “No! He said: “put it off your head.” Jilbaab is for the freed women. She hesitated, so he went up to her with the whip (Darrah), and he hit her on the head, until she threw it. And narrated it Muhammad ibn AlHassan in Al-Athaar from Abi Hanifa from Himad from Ibraheem that Umar used to beat the slave-girls who wore veil and used to say: "Do not resemble yourselves to free women!"

Ref: Al-Diraya Fi Takhrij Ahadeeth Al-Hidayah. Vol. 1, Pg. # 124

7. Allamah Al-Albani:

Al-Bayhaqi has narrated through Hamad Ibn Salama from Thamana Ibn Abdullah Ibn Anas from his grandfather Anas who said: "The slave-girls of Umar were serving us with uncovered hair and their breasts were shaking/wobbling ( تضطرب)."

Al-Albani: The chain of this Hadeeth is 'Jayyid' (at a level between Hasan and Saheeh) and all of it’s narrators are trustworthy except the teacher of Bayhaqi Abul Qasim Abdul Rahman Ibn Ubaidullah Al-Harbi and he is very Truthful as Al-Khatib says and Al-Bayhaqi said: "And the reports from Umar Ibn Al-Khattab concerning that matter are authentic."

Ref: Irwa Al-Ghalil. Vol. 6, Pg. # 204

Such Is The Behaviour Of Umar b. al-Khattab
I hope you guys (Empiree, MrOlai, Sino, Kazlaw2000 {Oh sorry bros, na Astaghfirullah you dey seek for him}, et al find a good role model in Umar). Like I said, ahadith plenty on this should you need more so that you see something to emulate. These kinds of ahadith are what people like username see that made them run away from hadith. My brother Rilwayne001 is starting have that. May Allah guide our hearts aright to see the truth.

sino:

Subhannallah! Astagfirullah! I had just realized that I didn’t even read the narration properly, the one which contained Umar (RA) being defeated is a weak narration as earlier pointed out, the one you quoted again from Musnad Imam Ahmad, does not contain such report i.e Abu Bakr(RA) and Umar (RA) being defeated.

You are not mistaken at all. You've said so earlier that the hadith of al-Hakim and al-Hindi are 'suspected' and daef respectively. And I concurred with you.

However you agree with the one documented by Imam Ahmad that both of them (Abu Bakr and Umar) went and returned without achieving success.

sino:

I have read another instance of the scenario being that, when Abu Bakr and Umar (RA) went to khaybar, the jews were locked up in their fortress, when Ali (RA) came, they then decided to have a face to face combat.

@underlined, why? Is it because Abu Bakr and Umar were no match of them or they were too powerful than the Jews? And when you use the word "they" in the context of face to face combat, Imam Muslim reported that ONLY the Jews best fighter, Marhab challenged Ali b. Abi talib. Observe, even at that time, the Jews were still locked themselves in their fortress. Only Marhab, their bravest, and some few soldiers accompanied him came out. It was only when Ali killed Marhab that he broke their giant gate and the force of Islam had entrance into the fortress. This is what Imam Muslim and others reported. So, there is no doubt, that was exactly what happened to Abubakar and Umar - the gate of the fortress was locked up, Marhab came out to have a duel combat with them... But they both RETURNED WITHOUT ACHIEVING VICTORY.

On the other hands, that underlined statement of yours will even strengthened my assertions provided that report is Sahih/Hasan, as you shall see below.

So we are basing our discussion on the Sahih report of Imam Ahmad in his Musnad. Kindly read it once again so that you don't come back and give further excuses.

Now let us together look at this information given by the Prophet in the same hadith of Ahmad:

لا يرجع حتی يفتح له [/b]اني دافع الوا غدا الی رجل يحبه الله ورسوله ويحب الله ورسوله

"I will pass the flag to a man who loves Allah and His Messenger and Allah and His Messenger love him, [b]he will not escape /run/return (لا يرجع) UNTIL he succeeds(حتی يفتح له)".

1. Why does Prophet went to such extent explaining the characteristics of the new man he will send after the initial failures by the two Sheiks?

# Prophet said: "...he (the man) loves Allah and His Prophet and Allah and His Prophet loves him..."

Apparently others too (i.e Abu Bakr and Umar) also love Allah and His Prophet but the love is not of a degree that "...he will not escape /run/return UNTIL he succeeds". That is a die-hard love.

2. Success/victory is used by the Prophet in that hadith. The opposite of success is failure. In one word, Abu Bakr and Umar failed in conquering Khaybar.

* In previous battles (e.g Uhud and later Hunayn), it was the same troop that "ran away/retreat" who came back to finished off and won the battles. If the two Sheiks"returned" as a result of failed strategies (according to you or the Jews locked up themselves in the castle, also according to you), why were they not sent back individually or as large group to finish what they started?!

Other Narrations
# Imam Ibn Abdul Barr:

It has been narrated through a group of Sahaba like Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas, Sahl Ibn Sa’d, Aboo Huraira, Buraida Al-Aslami, Aboo Sa’eed Al-Khudri, Abdullah Ibn Umar, Imraan Ibn Al-Hussain and Salama Ibn Al-Akwah all of them with the same meaning from the Prophet (saw) who said in the day of Khaybar:

"Tomorrow I will pass the flag to a man who loves Allah and his Messenger (saw), and Allah and his Messenger (saw) loves him. He does not run away/turn back (ليس بفرار ) Allah (swt) will give put the victory on his hands. And then He called Ali while He had a ailment in his eyes, so the Prophet (saw) put his saliva on his eyes and gave him the flag, and Allah (swt) gave him victory. And these narrations all of them are firm and valid.

Ref: Al-Isti’ab. Vol. 3, Pg. # 1099 - 1100

# Imam Abi Shaybah with entirely another chain reports:

Ubaidallah - No’aim Ibn Hakim - Abi Maryam - Ali who said:

"The Messenger of Allah (saw) went out to Khaybar, when he reached it he sent Umar and a group of people with him to their town or their castle they went and fought them, but they could not do anything, and Umar with his companions came back to the Prophet (saw), his companions were saying that Umar is a coward and he was saying that his companions are cowards (فجاه يجبنهم ويجبنو نه ) and the Messenger of Allah (saw) got annoyed (فساه ذلك رسول اللّه صلی الله عليه وسلم فقال: ) and he said:'I will send a man towards them who loves Allah (swt) and his Messenger (saw) and Allah (swt) and his Messenger (saw) love him, he will fight with them until he succeeds, he does not run away (ليس بفرار ) The people raised their necks to see whom the Messenger of Allah (saw) will call, they wished to be that man. The Messenger of Allah (saw) remained silent for a while and then said: 'Where is Ali?' They said: 'He has an ailment in his eyes,' He (saw) said: 'Bring him to me.' When I came to him (saw), he opened my eyes and put his saliva on them and passed me the flag and then I went fast fearing that maybe the Messenger of Allah (swt) would change his decision. When I reached their castle and fought them, then Al-Marhab invited me singing epic verses, and I went to him singing epic verses like people do until we met and Allah (swt) killed him with my hands and his companions ran away and closed the door of their castle behind themselves. We went to the door and I did not stop trying to break it until Allah (swt) opened it.

Footnote: Narrated by Al-Bazzar and narrated also by Al-Hakim whom has Authenticated it and Al-Dhahabi has confirmed it. In Kanz-ulUmmal Al-Muttaqi Al-Hindi has said that it is Hasan 'Reliable.'

Ref: Al-Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah. Vol. 20, Pg. # 446

sino:

Let me for a moment agree with you, did the Prophet (SAW) say this (what he said to Ali (RA) ) to Umar (RA) and then Umar (RA) then return without being victorious?

is there any report where the Prophet (SAW) prophesied that Umar (RA) would achieve victory and he returned without victory? Even the companions all were assured that victory is certain when the Prophet (SAW) made that statement, that is to say, if such was said for Umar (RA) or any other sahaba, victory would be guaranteed.

@underlined, you meant "to Abu Bakr and then to Umar. Understood.I hope you are not faulting the Prophet in whatever way. I trust you can never.

To your question, you need to read the full statement of the Prophet to understand why he made such pronouncement. {He (saw) said: "he (the man - Ali) loves Allah and His Prophet and Allah and His Prophet love him too. He will not return unless he has achieved victory"}

This is not a prophecy rather it is expression of Ali's die-hard characteristics. This is testified to by all the battles Ali fought with the Prophet. He never retreated/turn back and then return. Compare to others.

However if you insist its a Prophecy (perhaps using the fact that every decision of the Prophet is wahy), that even add strength to my point:

# Does the Prophet sent the Shaykhain on his own accord or he received wahy to send them?

# Those statement about Ali is wahy that means Abu Bakr and Umar did not have those qualities before Allah otherwise Prophet would have said so concerning them before leaving for Khaybar.

Whichever way you look at it, it does not pay your candidates at all.

The case of Hunayn

# Sino, my submission is very simple. Bukhari reported Umar FLED at Hunayn among those who fled. Plenty of other reporters claimed Umar was among the steadfast.

No doubt we have contrasting reports. You have settled for other reports and throw Bukhari's report into dust bin. All I need is your amiable, scholarly declaration that Bukhari's narration is Mawdoo (fabrication). That's all I've asked for.

# Sino, your case became worsen when you try to explain Bukhari's hadith to exonerate Umar. It is very shameful when people like you try to "edit report" to suit your agenda.

Here's your/copied statement:

sino:

"...Abu Qatada was busy fighting and repelling the aggression when all of a sudden he notices that Muslims forces retreating, so in a confused state he too retreats with them. While retreating, [size=25pt]he notices Umar(ra) among group of people (i.e. steadfast fighters)[/size] and asks him about the retreat of those Muslim fighters. To that Umar(ra) replies, “It is the decree of Allah”.

Here's the original report for the tenth time:

Imam al-Bukhari documents:

AlLayth - Yahya b. Sa'id - Umar b. Kathir b. Aflah - Abu Muhammad, freed slave of Abu Qatadah - Abu Qatadah:

" On the day of Hunayn... The Muslims fled ( وانهزم المسلمون), and I too fled with them (وانهزمت معهم ). Suddenly, I met 'Umar b. al-Khattab amongst THE PEOPLE (فإذا بعمر بن الخطاب في الناس ) and I asked him, "What is wrong with THE PEOPLE?" He said, "It is the command of Allah." Then THE PEOPLE returned to the Messenger of Allah ( شم تراجع الناس الی رسول الله)."

Abu Qatadah revealed he met Umar amongst THE PEOPLE....and THEN, THE PEOPLE RETURNED TO THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH.

Here's your/copied word again:

sino:

he notices Umar(ra) among group of people (i.e. steadfast fighters)

Sino, are STEADFAST FIGHTERS have any course RETURNING (BACK) TO THE PROPHET?! You should have jeje continue your arguments on the fact that other reporters vindicate Umar rather than trying to explain hadith of Bukhari which clearly expose Umar's great flight along some others.

# Quran is a unique book that gives precise evaluation of things. Again the GENERAL PRONOUN used by Allah is crystal clear that ALL FLED except whom there is clear evidence he remained with the Prophet:

"Truly, Allah has helped you on many battlefields, and on the Day of Hunayn when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, as vast as it is, was straitened for you. Then you fled away." {surah Tawbah:25}

This is the same GENERAL PRONOUN used in the case of Uhud:

"When you ran off precipitately and did not wait for any one, and the Apostle was calling you from your rear, so He gave you another sorrow instead of (your) sorrow, so that you might not grieve at what had escaped you, nor (at) what befell you; and Allah is aware of what you do" [surah Aal Imran: 153].

Imam Muslim documents this confirmation:

Abu Uthman:
"None remained with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, on some of the DAYS in which the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, was fighting apart from Talhah and Sa'd. They both (i.e Talhah and Sa'd) narrated that to me."
Ref: Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi)[annotator: Muhammad Fuad Abd al-Baqi], vol.4, p.1879, #2414.

So how come 80 - 100 people will remained with the Prophet, and in such a heated battle somebody will be comfortable to make the head count. It is nothing but an exaggeration to cover the shame of cowards.

sino:

Yeah, yeah, bring your proof if you are truthful, bring the written text that says Umar (RA) doubted the messenger of Allah (SAW), I don’t want your assumptions and conjectures, if you cannot, then you are a liar, and you should seek forgiveness

Imam al-Bukhari documents:

Ibrahim b. Musa – Hisham – Ma’mar – al-Zuhri – Ubayd Allah b. 'Abd Allah – Ibn ‘Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet, peace be upon him, approached, and there were some men in the room, and among them was ‘Umar b. al-Khattab. He (the Prophet) said, “Come near. Let me write for you a document after which you will never go astray.” ‘Umar said, Verily, the illness has now fully possessed the Prophet, peace be upon him. And you have the Qur'an. So, the Book of Allāh is sufficient for us].”

The people in the room disputed. Among them were those who said, “Come near so that the Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, may write for you a document after which you will never go astray.” And among them were those who were repeating what ‘Umar said. When their noise and dispute became very rowdy in the presence of the Prophet, peace be upon him, he said, “Stand up and leave me.

Narrated ‘Ubayd Allah: Ibn ‘Abbas used to say: “It was a great disaster that their dispute and noise prevented the Messsenger of Allah, peace be upon him, from writing that document for them.

Source: al-Bukhari al-Ju'fi, al-Jami' al-Sahih al-Mukhtaṣar (Beirut: Dar Ibn Kathir; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 6, p. 2680, # 6932}.

Imam Ibn Athir writes:

In the narrations of the illness of Allah's Apostle (saws), they said: "What is wrong with him? Has he lost his consciousness? Ask him." It means that 'is the Prophet talking nonsense because of his illness.' they wanted to know, and it means that 'is he delirious because of his illness?' This is the best way to interpret that narration and it should not be said as a declarative sentence, because it means either talking nonsense or delirious. AND THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS UMAR, AND THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST HIM.

Ref: Al-Nihaya Fi Gharib Al-Hadith, vol.1, p.#246.


RAISING ONE'S VOICE ABOVE THAT OF PROPHET

Allah declares: {"O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet nor address him the way you do each other lest your deeds be in vain and you perceive not. Those that lower their voices in the presence of the Prophet, they are those whose hearts Allah has tested for piety; for them is forgiveness and a great reward"}

Case 1
Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 6, pg. 46 in "The chapter on the Interpretation of Sura al-Hujurat of the Quran"; also Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 8, pg. 145 in "The chapter concerning Adherence to the Quran and Sunnah", under the heading of "What is disliked about embroiled and contention", Imam Bukhari documents:

"Waki' informed us from Nafi' b. Umar from Ibn Abi Malika that: 'The Two righteous ones, Abu Bakr and Umar, were nearly destroyed when the delegation of Banu Tamim came to the Prophet. One of them pointed to al-Aqran. Habis al-Tamim al-Hanzali, the brother of Banu Majasha, and the other indicated someone else. Then Abu Bakr said to Umar: Surely, you only wish to contradict me.' Umar said: 'I did not wish to contradict you'. And their voices rose in front of the Prophet, and the verse was revealed: {"O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet nor address him the way you do each other lest your deeds be in vain and you perceive not. Those that lower their voices in the presence of the Prophet, they are those whose hearts Allah has tested for piety; for them is forgiveness and a great reward"}

Ibn Abi Malika said that Ibn al-Zubayr [later] said: "Thereafter 'Umar didn't mention the matter regarding his father, i.e Abu Bakr, and whenever he spoke to the Prophet about something, he would do so in a whisper and could not be heard to the extent that the Prophet had to tell him to speak up."

# The incident of 'The Calamity of Thursday' where Umar assertively accused the Prophet of Allah of being fully possessed by his illness exposed the cover up of Ibn Zubair ^as read above.

Prophet Defend Himself

# Imam al-Bukhari (d.256H) further reports in a summarized version:

Qubayṣah – Ibn ‘Uyaynah – Suleiman al-Aḥwal – Sa'id b. Jubayr – Ibn ‘Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them both:

“Thursday! And what a Thursday it was!” Then, he (Ibn ‘Abbas) wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. Then, he said, “The illness of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, became severe on Thursday, and he said, ‘Bring me a sheet of paper so that I may write a document for you after which you will never go astray’. They differed, and it is not proper to differ in front of a prophet. So, they said, ‘The Messenger of Allah is RAVING MADNESS. He (the Prophet) replied, ‘Leave me, as I am in a better state than what you are calling me towards.’ Then, he ordered them, when he was about to die, to do three things: ‘Expel the idolaters from the Arabian Peninsula and show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.’ And I forgot the third.”

Source: al-Bukhari al-Ju'fi, al-Jami al-Sahih al-Mukhtaṣar (Beirut: Dar Ibn Kathir; 3rd edition, 1407 H) [annotator: Dr. Mustafa Dib al-Bagha], vol. 3, p. 1111, # 2888.

Definition of the Key word used
key words – hajara (هجر) and ahajara (اهجر) [and their nominal form is al-hujr (الهجر) - in the aḥadīth are often mistranslated or misinterpreted as simply “to become unconscious” or “to faint”.

However, one of the earliest classical Sunni grand Imams – Sufyan b. ‘Uyaynah (d. 198 H) – had longed exposed the meaning of the word used by the Sahaba. He was explicit that the Sahabah literally intended that the Prophet of Allah was “raving mad”, that the words they used meant exactly that.

This is equally confirmed by other classical ‘Ulama of the Ahl al-Sunnah.

1. Imam al-Shami (d. 942 H), for instance, states:

Al-Hujr: is raving madness and irrational talk, and it is (also) used to refer to obscene, immoral talk.

Source: Subul al-Huda al-Rashad fi Sirah Khayr al-‘Ibad (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah; 1st edition, 1414 H) [annotators: ‘Adil Aḥmad ‘Abd al-Mawjud and ‘Ali Muḥammad Ma'ud], vol. 11,p.105

2. The ace Sunni linguist, Ibn Manzur (d. 711 H), says as well: Al-Hujr: is raving madness.

Source: Lisan al-‘Arab (Beirut: Dar Sadir; 1st edition), vol. 5, p. 250

3. Imam Ibn Salam (d. 224), an ancient, leading Sunni hadith expert, has this submission too:

As for "al-hujr" in statements, it is raving madness.

Source: Abu ‘Ubayd al-Qasim b. Salām al-Harwī, Gharīb al-Ḥadīth (Haydarabad: Majlis Dāirah al-Ma’ārif al-‘Uthmāniyyah; 1st edition, 1384 H), vol. 2, p. 64

4. Al-Hafiz Ibn Ḥajar al-‘Asqalani (d. 852 H) does not say anything different either: Al-Hujr is raving madness

Source: Fatḥ al-Bari Sharḥ Sahih al-Bukhari (Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah li al-Taba'ah wa al-Nashr; 2nd edition), vol. 8, p. 101

Second Definition of the same word
There is a second definition for the word which must be taken into account.

* Imam Ibn Salam comes in again after agreed that the word (al-Hujr) means "raving madness":

Al-Kisai – and part of it is from al-Asma'i and others: al-hujr is to say obscene things and to use obscene language. It is said from it: the man ahajara, yahjur, ihjaran.

Source: Abu ‘Ubayd al-Qasim b. Salam al-Harwi, Gharib al-Hadith (Haydarabad: Majlis Dairah al-Ma'arifah al-‘Uthmaniyyah; 1st edition, 1384 H), vol. 2, p. 63}

* Qadi ‘Iyad (d. 544 H), for instance, has given both meanings to ahajara (اهجر) – one of the words used by the Ṣaḥābah to qualify the Rasūl. He even specifically refers to the ḥadīth itself:

It is said “the man ahajara” when he says obscene things. His statement “the Messenger of Allāh, peace be upon him, ahajara” – which is the correct form with fatḥah of the al-hā (i.e. pronounced as ahajara) - means raving madness; and al-hujr means raving madness.

Source: {Al-Qadi Abu al-Faḍl ‘Iyad b. Musa b. ‘Iyad al-Yahsubi al-Sibt al-Maliki, Mashariq al-Anwar ‘ala Sihah al-Athar (al-Maktabah al-‘Atīqah and Dar al-Turath), vol. 2, p. 529}.

AlBaqir:


Suspicion? Slandering? Backbiting? Finding fault? Oh boy, Na where you see all that? There are facts in your books against Umar b. al-Khattab.

1. Imam Muslim documents Ali and Abbas thought of Abu Bakr and Umar. Umar himself confessed:

"When the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, died, Abu Bakr said: "I am the walī of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him.".... So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (i.e. Abu Bakr) to be a LIAR, SINFUL, A TRAITOR and DISHONEST. And Allāh knows that he was really truthful, pious, rightly-guided and a follower of the truth. Abu Bakr died and I became the wali of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and the wali of Abu Bakr. So both of you thought me to be a LIAR, SINFUL, A TRAITOR and DISHONEST. {Sahih Muslim (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-Arabi), vol. 3, p. 1376, #1757}

Allah (SWT) says: : O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.”
1. Quoting half truth, and then lying would not save you on judgment day, this is the full hadith from sahih Muslim:

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said: Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): “Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them.” I said: “I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job.” He said: “Malik, take it (and do what you have been told).” At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa’ came in and said: “Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. ‘Auf, Zubair and Sa’d (who have come to seek an audience with you)?” He said: “Yes, and permitted them.” So they entered. Then he (Yarfa’) came again and said: “What do you say about ‘Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)?” He said: “Yes,” and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: “Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar (Ali).” The people (who were present) also said: “Yes, Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them.” Malik b. Aus said: “I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by ‘Ali and Abbas).” ‘Umar said: “Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “Yes.” Then he turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said: “I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They (too) said: “Yes.” (Then) Umar said: “Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (may peace be upon him) a special favor that He has not done to anyone else except him.” He quoted the Quranic verse: “What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger.” The narrator said: “I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not.” Umar continued: “The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) distributed among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over.
“The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal.” (Continuing further) he said: “I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this?” They said: “Yes.” Then he adjured Abbas and ‘All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: “Do you both know this?” They said: “Yes.” He said: “When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said: ‘I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).’ Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah).” (Referring to Hadrat ‘Abbas), he said: “You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said: We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.’ So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali and Abbas) thought me (Umar) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used it. So both of you got it.” He said: “Wasn’t it like this?” They said: “Yes.” He said: “Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.” Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349

Funny, this hadith even defeats your claim, because if we are to understand anything from this narration, it is that Umar (RA) and Abu Bakr, were true, well-guided and a follower of truth. But I won’t belabor myself; I’ll just copy and paste (with little editing) for you, to defeat your lies:

Firstly before answering the tricky arguments of the shia, let us bring your attention to some important facts present in this narration which will never go down the throat of the shia. If we read the complete narration which the shia deliberately wouldn’t quote then following points are found.

1. We find that Ali (ra) went to Abubakar (ra) and Umar (ra) asking for his wife’s(Fatima) share from her father’s(Prophet) property. But we don’t find Ali (ra) going to these people to demand his Caliphate (OMG!). Had it been that Caliphate was the right of Ali(ra) and it was wrongfully taken away by Abubakar (ra) as the shia claim, then why didn’t Ali(ra) approached Abubakar(ra) or Umar(ra) in order to Claim his right? Was asking share of property MORE IMPORTANT for Ali(ra)than asking the right of Caliphate? The only reasonable answer to this is that Caliphate was never the right of Ali(ra), had it been so then he would have surely approached Abubakr(ra) or Umar(ra) demanding that, because guidance of Ummah is more important than the personal matter of Ali(ra). So how could Ali(ra) approach Abubakr(ra) for asking things related to personal matters but not related to religious. This proof just destroys the false claims of shiat that Ali(ra) was appointed as Caliph.

2. Umar turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said:“I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “YES.”

3. The property was Managed by Abubakar(ra) and Umar(ra) IN THE SAME WAY as it was managed by PROPHET(SAW). Ali (ra) acknowledged this. (refer bukhari hadees 2884).

4. Those words were said firstly by Abbas (ra) FOR ALI(RA) and then by Umar(ra), but Ali(ra) never uttered those words. Now let us explain that why Umar (ra) had to use those words.

Firstly it was Abbas who referred to Ali as “liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest.” Therefore, Umar repeated the words of Abbas verbatim in order to prove a point. Umar was making use of rhetoric. The problem is that the Shia have no hold of Arabic Balagha. If they did, they would know that direct translation in English would not give the proper understanding. If we apply the Arabic Balagha, the phrase actually means: “So you both thought Abu Bakr was a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest?” This is an example of reductio ad absurdum. Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: “reduction to the absurd”) also known as an apagogical argument(reductio ad impossibile, or proof by contradiction) is a type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument, derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original assumption must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result. The following dialogue is an example of reductio ad absurdum:

Father- Why did you start smoking?
Daughter – All my friends were doing it.
Father- You’re saying that if all your friends jumped off a cliff, you would do that too?
In this case, Umar used the exact same words (i.e. verbatim) that Abbas used for Ali in order to make a point. Umar was basically saying: “If you think Ali is such-and-such, then you must also think that Abu Bakr and Umar are also that?”

Another analogy of this is a mother and a father who had told their two sons that the capitol of France was Paris. A few days later, the two sons get in an argument over the capitol of France. One brother says the capitol is Berlin, whereas the other says the capitol is London. When they go to their father to arbitrate over this matter, one brother says about the other: “Father, can you settle this dispute of mine with my idiot brother who thinks the capitol of France is Berlin?” The father is not appalled at the fact that his two little sons forgot the capitol of France; this is a mistake that anybody can make. But what he is appalled at is the language used by this son, calling his brother an “idiot.” The father then says: “So you thought of Mom as an idiot when she said that Paris was the capitol of France, and you thought I was an idiot when I said that too?” By saying this, the father is trying to dissuade the son from jumping to conclusions about his brother’s character, because in such a process, he would also believe his mother and father to be idiots as well.

Umar was simply repeating the words of Abbas verbatim. How can the Shia ignore this “coincidence” especially in light of Arabic Balagha? It is obvious from this that Umar was proving a point, and his words should thus be analyzed in this context.

So we find that the claim of Shia that it was Ali who called Abu Bakr and Umar to be a “liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest” was THEIR OWN SELF MADE CLAIM, in order to deceive people. But the reality is that, it was merely Umar who said that Abbas was implying this.

5. When Ali(ra) became Caliph, he did not revoke the decision of Abu Bakr and Umar(ra) on the propety of Fadak. What stopped Ali (ra) from doing this? Why don’t the Shia hate Ali (ra) for failing to return Fadak? Why don’t they hate Ali (ra) for reaping the gains of Fadak while he was Caliph? Why the double standard with Abu Bakr and Umar(ra)? This is also a slap on the face of shias who think that Ali(ra) considered Abubakar and Umar to be liars , had it been so then nothing would have stopped him from revoking the decision of Abubakr(ra) and Umar(ra). Infact Ali(ra) continued the same ruling regarding that property during his caliphate in the same was as it was done in the caliphate of Abubakr and Umar(ra). If supposedly he considered Abubakr and Umar dishonest on this matter like the shia claim then why would he follow their footsteps? On the contrary we find in the book of Shia Mutazili Scholar that Ali(ra) said:

إ ن الأمر لما وصل الأمر إلى علي ابن أبي طالب كلّم في رد فدك ، فقال : ” إني لأستحيي من الله أن أرد شيئاً منع منه أبو بكر وأمضاه عمر

When the issue of denying fadak reached Ali(during his caliphate) so he Ali’s reply (ra) was: “I am ashamed before Allah to overturn something that was prohibited by Abu Bakr and (prohibition)continued by Umar.” {ibn Abil Hadid, Sharh Nahj al-Balaghah, vol. 4 p. 130]
Thus the fact is that Ali(ra) never Insulted Abubakr(ra) and Umar(ra), and he is free from being included in the category of most deviated shia cult.

AlBaqir:
2. Imam al-Ghazali (d. 450 H) writes:

The people and scholars agree upon the context of the narration of the sermon on the day of Ghadir Khum in which the Prophet (saw) said, "Whoever I am the Mawla then Ali (a) is the Mawla." Then Umar Ibn Khattab said: 'Congratulations! Oh Abal Hasan, you have become my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer.'

This shows his (Umar) submission and acceptance and confirmation (of Ali's Mawla-ship). However after that, he (i.e Umar) was defeated by his desire and love of power in flag of leadership, and he was dominated by desire, and the desire to hold the flag of Caliphate, and the joy to open and conquer states, and by that they (i.e Umar and his cohorts) reverted to the early phase, they dispensed with the agreement (of Ghadir Khum) and sold it at a low price. And also the Prophet (saw) in his last illness before his death said: "Bring me a tablet and ink-pot, so that I may write for you a document by following which you will never go astray" whereupon Umar said: "Don't bring it, the man is talking nonsense.'"

Ref: Sirr al-Alamayn wa kash'f ma fid Darayn, pg.23.

Imam Sibt b. Jawzi also quoted this in his: Tadhkirat Ul-Khawa'is, pg.62.

1. Firstly, the narration quoted here is weak (i.e Umar (ra) saying congratulations to Ali (ra)), in all the books this narration it is found, it is transmitted via Ali ibn Zayd ibn Jadan. Weak rafidi in accordance to almost majority of all scholars.

Secondly, I read somewhere that this book was not authored by Imam Ghazali…. But that is not really important

Thirdly, reading the whole passage from the book, which was titled constituting the caliph and kings (my literal translation), clearly establishes the fact that, consultation and consensus is the way to go in terms of choosing a khalifah, the author went against those who have the opinion that it is divinely revealed/selected/written down. So it really goes against your shia understanding of khilafah of Ali (ra).

Even if we agree for a moment, that what you stated is true, that the statement was from Imam Ghazali (which I strongly doubt), it remains an opinion, not substantiated by any fact that Umar (RA) was overtaken by desires to become the khalifah, since we all know that Abu Bakr (ra) became the first khalifah, and the majority of people, including Umar (ra) and Ali (ra) and Abbas (Ra) gave him the pledge of allegiance, whether some tarried, that is of no importance, did they give their allegiance? YES! Was it a consensus? YES!

AlBaqir:
3. Imam Ibn Athir writes:

In the narrations of the illness of Allah's Apostle (saws), they said: "What is wrong with him? Has he lost his consciousness? Ask him." It means that 'is the Prophet talking nonsense because of his illness.' they wanted to know, and it means that 'is he delirious because of his illness?' This is the best way to interpret that narration and it should not be said as a declarative sentence, because it means either talking nonsense or delirious. AND THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS UMAR, AND THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST HIM.

Ref: Al-Nihaya Fi Gharib Al-Hadith, vol.1, p.#246.

While to Allah alone is the truth, ALL these are facts not suspicion, slandering, backbiting as you paint it. Just like Imam Athir said, "...this is not an accusation made against him". I (Albaqir) say: IT IS RATHER A FACT.

3. This is desperation bro, prove to us that it was Umar (ra) that utter that word to the prophet (SAW), I know you know the drill, not someone’s opinion, or your assumptions and suspicions.
Here is the Arabic:
ومنه حديث مَرضِ النبي صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم [ قالوا : ما شأنُه ؟ أهَجَرَ ؟ ] أي اخْتَلَف كلامُه بسبب المرضِ على سبيل الاستفهام . أي هل تَغَيَّر كلامُه واخْتَلَط لأجل ما به من المرض ؟ وهذا أحْسَنُ ما يقال فيه ولا يُجْعل إخباراً فيكون إمَّا من الفُحْش أو الهَذَيان . والقائل كانَ عُمَر ولا يُظَنُّ به ذلك

Firstly, the most important translation here is what is in the brackets; the word is qaluu, the plural form of qala, which means to say. So if we are to translate this, it would be, they said: how is his condition? Is he delirious? So if AlBaqir says it was Umar (ra) that said this, how come it is a plural form?! This quote does not help you.

Secondly, your strange translation is quite interesting, Alhamdulilah there are those who understand Arabic on this forum; I hope they will correct me when I err. After the bracket, Ibn Athir explains what is meant by those who said the Prophet (SAW) was delirious. “That is, his speech changed due to his illness, being expressed as an inquiry. Again another interpretation “That is, mixing his speech as result of what has affected him from the illness.” Then he said this is the best way of what is said” meaning these two explanations are the best way to interpret the word used in the hadith.

Personally, I think Ibn Athir said what he said that this is not a suspicion of him (which you translated to not to accuse) is based on the direct translation he gave for the word hajara, which also could mean raving madness, or nonsense, removing Umar (ra) from suspicion of making such a remark. What Ibn Athir has written does not in any way equate what you are doing here, so your argument falls flat on the face. Bring proof from the narrations that it was Umar (ra) who said this (ahajara?), authentic proof.

by the way, him when does "zana/yuzanu" mean accuse? Na wa o for your masters and how they translate Arabic

I do not see facts in all what you have been doing on this thread, assumptions, suspicions and conjectures, and then half truth.

AlBaqir:
A thread is coming in sha Allah. We don't need to derail this like I said earlier.

First underline sentence: In one word Umar DOUBTED the Prophet.

Excellent! Bravo!! Ofvarin!!! This is my point bro. Allahu Akbar! Sino used (or unknowingly copied the word "RECKLESS ATTITUDES" to describe Umar. When have you become a Shia? That language is hot! I thought only Shia used that. Betatron, Empiree, MrOlai et al can you beat that?

There are lots of command in the Quran where Allah commanded the Sahabah to follow the Prophet unconditionally without questioning.
Based on that, attitude of Umar was reckless.Those questions were silly.

I also told you the report in Bukhari by al-Zuhri showed that Umar said he need to work extra to expiate his silly attitudes. Am glad you quote it yourself rather than defending his only expressing his anger.

Therefore, it makes perfect sense when Umar himself confessed his RECKLESS ATTITUDES on that day:

Umar b. al-Khattab:
"By Allah! I NEVER DOUBTED SINCE I ACCEPTED ISLAM EXCEPT ON THAT DAY (Hudaybiyah). So, I went to the Prophet, peace be upon him, and said, "Are you not truly the Messenger of Allah?"

So Mr sino, dont take it upon us (the Shia) when we quote the holy Quran verbally saying: "The Believer are only those who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, AND DO NOT DOUBT AFTERWARDS...

So this is your state of mind?! Subhanallah! Have I disagreed with the narration that states Umar (ra) said he never doubted the prophet (SAW) except the day of hudaybiyyah? Go back and carefully read my posts on this issue.

Why do you keep acting like a wailing wailer?! Keep on wailing that Umar (ra) doubted the Prophet (SAW), he (ra) had moved on, did so many good deeds and died a martyr, why should I or anyone be dwelling heedlessly on an issue that the Prophet (SAW) did not take personal? I had said the companions of the Prophet (SAW) are not infallible, was his action reckless? Yes, did he regret it? Yes, so what is your problem? Even when you commit grave sins, and you do a sincere repentance, Allah (SWT) says he is oft forgiving most merciful. You are not the Prophet (SAW) and you are not Allah (SWT), if you cannot see beyond your hatred for these companions of the prophet (SAW), then you should check your faith.

AlBaqir:
Heh...who told you Prophet no angry and react? Mind you it was not Umar alone. It was he along his usual culprits.

No doubt Prophet had the most exalted character. But when nuisance and reckless attitudes become increase and especially from a senior Sahabi, naturally Prophet reacts.

# Imam Al-Waqidi documents:

Abu Sa’eed Al-Khudri said: "... Umar and some of the men of companions of the Prophet (saw) who were with Umar said: 'Didn't you tell us that you will enter the Ka`ba and hold the door of it and and perform Tawaf around it?' And now neither our sacrifices reached Makkah nor we.' He said: 'Did I tell you that we would visit the Ka`ba this year?' Umar said: 'No.' The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, 'So you will enter the Ka’ba, and I will hold the door of Ka’ba and shave my head and your heads in the center of Makkah and will perform Tawaf around it?' "Then He came to Umar and said: 'Did you forget the day of Uhud when you were going up, and paid no heed for anyone, and I was calling you from behind? [Qur’aan 3:153], Did you forget the day of Al-Ahzaab (battle of Khandaq) that their army came on you from above and from below, and when your eyes swerved and your hearts leaped to your throats? [Qur’aan 33:10] And the Messenger of Allah (saw) kept asking them, did you forget the day of such and such? Until the Muslims said: 'Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw) told the truth, O Messenger of Allah (saw), we had not thought what you had, you are more knowledgeable in Allah (swt) and His decisions than us.' When the Messenger of Allah (saw) entered the Ka’ba next year and shaved his head, he said: 'This is what I had promised to you'. On the day of Fath (conquering Makkah) he took the door of Ka’ba and said: 'Bring Umar Ibn Al-Khattab to me!' And then said: 'This is what I told you.' And when it was Hajjatul Wida he said: 'O Umar, this is what I told you.' Then Umar said: 'O Messenger of Allah (saw), yes there is no victory greater than this victory in Islam.'

Ref: Al-Maghazi. Vol. 2, Pg. # 609

I (albaqir) say: Absolutely there is no better way of convincing DOUBTER(S) other than showing him manifest evidences.

My question was, was the Prophet angry at Umar’s questions? If yes, provide your proof. I don’t want your conjectures and assumptions, you are not the Prophet (SAW) and you do not know what was in his heart, so quit trying to re-narrate history.

What you have quoted is even against you. How can one be this blinded by hate I ask?

“Then Umar said: 'O Messenger of Allah (saw), yes there is no victory greater than this victory in Islam.”

Does this statement indicate someone who is still in doubt? I had already posted that during that hudaybiyyah, and the verse of victory was revealed, the Prophet called Umar (ra) and gave him the good news, and telling them again on fath Makkah does not in any way portray that the people were still in their state of doubt. “And the Messenger of Allah (saw) kept asking them, did you forget the day of such and such? Until the Muslims said: 'Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw) told the truth, O Messenger of Allah (saw), we had not thought what you had, you are more knowledgeable in Allah (swt) and His decisions than us” it is clearly written that the Muslims said, [b]“we had thought” [/b]a past tense indicating that day they were in a poor state of mind, so why do you infuse your prejudices into narrations? Did Allah (SWT) not grant them all the victory? Did Allah (SWT) say this victory is only for those who did not doubt at hudaybiyyah? Even today, we are beneficiaries of this victory; it was a victory for Islam.

Like I have said earlier, your opinion amounts to nothing, its your choice to hold on to your prejudices…

AlBaqir:
Umar did worst than that (i.e doubting) at Prophet's sick bed. A thread is already opened for you to reply. We don't need to derail this further. Empiree can gist you. And besides I have given you above Al-Ghazali and Ibn Athir's submissions. Meaning he continued his RECKLESS ATTITUDES.

Bro I didn’t ask about what is worse than doubt, I said clearly, provide proof that Umar (ra) doubted the prophet (SAW) after this incident. Simple! If you cannot, then you should just say you cannot, and stop spamming with unnecessary information.

FYI, I have a good response to that your thread you speak of, will be there perhaps by the weekend, in sha Allah.

AlBaqir:
# First you've admitted yourself that such attitudes of Umar were RECKLESS. And you admitted Umar went to Abu Bakr who had never doubted the Prophet before. Now Listen to yourself again using "not in a good mood". And I put it to you that going to meet Abu Bakr for confirmations thereby calmed down instead of Prophet's answers to his questions is a Salt upon your injury. If Prophet cannot convince you, who else will do?

# Second, there is no record that other sahabah (Umar's gangs) asked those reckless questions directly from the Prophet. Though they were also showing their reckless grievances.

Imam al-Dhahabi also have a nice document on this just like al-Waqidi quoted above.

Third, @cancelled. He was the most doubter with RECKLESS ATTITUDES.

This is getting ridiculous, so there is no other reason for Umar (ra) to go and ask Abu Bakr these questions again other than he did not believe the Prophet (SAW)?! And when did I say that meeting Abu Bakr (ra) was what calmed him down?! This is the perverse logic, assumptions and conjectures you have been applying to your arguments so far, it’s quite unfortunate. There is so much I can do to help you in this aspect.

ALBaqir:
Honestly you are right and I agree with you. You cant blame me for I assumed too much from your man not realizing he's just being over-hyped. However the believers are always pray for death in the battlefield. They want to become Sha'eed and meet their beloved (Allah) quick. In fact they are always overjoyed whenever there is battle with Mushriqun.

Listen to Umm al-Mu'minin Aisha as she witnessed the battle of Khandaq:
she said: Sa'd passed by singing epic verses: 'Very soon the battle of the brave man begins...what a good thing it is that the DEATH COMES"

Indeed only the brave men wish to meet death in the battlefield. Cowards will run, turn back, jumping like mountain goats, and hide in a garden.

Salute the brave, the dead: Hahoo! Hahoo!! Hahoo!!!

When the stories of the sahabas are being narrated, we all are awed at their steadfastness and valour, even when their shortcoming are mentioned, it is never to diminish their efforts, cast aspersions or slander them, they were human beings after all, but they suffered for the deen, they sacrificed everything for Islam, and these good and enviable qualities are what our scholars emphasize. Allah (SWT) will judge each person according to their deeds and intentions, not AlBaqir, or your shia masters.

I have read a narration that states how Umar (ra) prayed to die as a martyr, read below:

Ibn Kathir said, “When ‘Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, finished performing hajj (pilgrimage) in the year twenty two of the Hijri calendar, and the Mothers of the Believers were with him, he supplicated Allah, Glorified and Exalted, and complained to Him that he has become old. He also supplicated Him that he has become weak and the subjects have increased; and that he was afraid of being negligent. He asked Allah to take him and bestow martyrdom upon him in the city of the Prophet (Medina), prayers and peace of Allah be upon him. It was established in the authentic books of Hadith that he used to say, “O Allah! I ask You a martyrdom in your cause, and a death in the city of Your Messenger.” Allah has responded to this supplication and gathered for him the two things. He was martyred in the city of the Prophet. This is too dear but Allah is the Most Courteous and Kind unto whom He wills, Glorified and Exalted He is.

On the morning of Wednesday in Dhul-Hijja, he was stabbed while standing for prayer, in the mihrab (prayer niche). He was stabbed by Abu Lulu Fairuz the Magi. He hit him with a two edged dagger. He hit him three strokes, or six; one of them under the navel, that he fell to the ground. The infidel came back with his dagger; he did not pass by anyone but that he hit him. He hit thirteen men, of whom six died. Abdullah ibn Awf threw over him a garment and he committed suicide. May Allah curse him.

‘Umar was carried to his home, bleeding from his wound, before sunrise. He started to wake up and then faint, and then they reminded him of prayer and he says, “Yes, there is no luck in Islam for those who left it.” (The Beginning and the End 7/137-138)

Praying to die on the battlefield is different from taking an oath to die on the battlefield, the former is commendable, while the latter is suicide...just to clarify for you again.