Pdizzle:


Now you're being sceptical, even though they play with our mind, it works. I have heard of an accident in which the driver disappeared, also seen live Sango stage play magic. Are you yoruba, have you heard of 'egbé'

UyiIredia:


A pastor once told me if his dream of an event that happened to me when I was young; about 2 years old. There simply no way an atheist can rationalize this away.

Pdizzle:
Nice analysis krattoss, but what held your friend is greed not jazz. The supernatural actually involves a lot of mind control but some are very real. I'm trying to get contacts and attend some festivals maybe i can get those people's opinion. Did you hear the story of Bola Ige being shot in the open and he didn't feel a thing?
What i think is that there's the genuine and obviously the fakes, that the fakes exists doesn't nullify all of them.
Cc macof, pagan9ja

Pdizzle:
I, though being a christian, have learnt a lot from the numerous intelligent atheists here trying to debunk the theism theory logically. I for one think they argue with very good points, but let's look in the direction of the African Traditional Religion. This is a religion where worshippers tends to see and feel the effectiveness of the African voodoo on a practical basis.
These traditionalist not only rely on faith as in the case of Christianity.
There are likewise situation in the christendom too, in the case of prophecies, miracles e.t.c even though some are proven to be hoax. But we have some people with one-on-one experiences.
My questions are; What is the stance of you atheists on the African Traditional Religion? These are proofs of supernatural powers.
Won't it be unfair if you accept the existence of these dieties and deny the existence of Jehovah?
Or are you intelligent folks saying 'powers that be' don't exist at all?
What are your views on witches, sorcerers, magicians etc.

plaetton:


From the Bible, one can easily deduce that Yahweh Jehovah was just a tribal deity of the ancient tent dwelling Hebrews.
In fact , many parts of the bible contain ritual practices that resemble and mimic African traditional religious practices.
Religion would make sense of those that adhere to it admit certain obvious truths to themselves first.

Among such truths is the acknowledgement of Yahweh as the diminutive tribal god of the ancient Hebrews.
And that the ancient Hebrews did indeed worship other tribal gods at various times.

And that, as humanly expected, the ancient Hebrew scribes elevated their tribal deity, Yahweh, above all other tribal gods.

As for the supernatural, well, what exactly is considered supernatural.
Supernatural, to me, means knowledge or phenomena for which one's consciousness has not adequately understood or placed in proper context of what is already known.

My grandmother says that cell phones , computers and Skype are supernatural, and she is 100% right.

I also think that some mystical events or phenomena fall under the arena of quantum physics.

If we understand how particules of matter behave at the quantum level, then we can appreciate the spillover effects on our natural world from time to time.

It may shock you that I do believe that extraordinary things happen. I have seen and experienced a few.

But I only seen them as direct , indirect or accidental applications of quantum mechanical phenomena.

krattoss:
maybe I have to experience the real to differentiate from the fake..

but in the meantime, they re all explainable.

Pdizzle:


Thanks for this. I don't really know much about quantum physics, I'll have to make research on that.
You termed supernatural as something one doesn't understand, should it really be so? For the fact that i don't understand how an electric bulb works doesn't that make it supernatural?
Let's not confuse it with ignorance. Personally for me, i think Supernatural is something inexplicable.
How does quantum physics explain 'kanako', a kind of jazz our forefathers use to walk very long distances, and it actually shortens the journey.
According to the bolded, does that still make you an atheist?

Pdizzle:


Thanks for this. I don't really know much about quantum physics, I'll have to make research on that.
You termed supernatural as something one doesn't understand, should it really be so? For the fact that i don't understand how an electric bulb works doesn't that make it supernatural?
Let's not confuse it with ignorance. Personally for me, i think Supernatural is something inexplicable.

How does quantum physics explain 'kanako', a kind of jazz our forefathers use to walk very long distances, and it actually shortens the journey.

According to the bolded, does that still make you an atheist?

plaetton:

But I only seen them as direct , indirect or accidental applications of quantum mechanical phenomena.

johnydon22:

This is the same thing Plaetton was say or does it make more sense if you put it your own way?

You could say Inexplicable and i would put YET... Because as long as such phenomenon manifests in this confine of nature it can be measured if checked and it's actuality ascertained if studied.

If you take an Electric bulb back in time like 234BC people would term it a supernatural occurrence or if you fly a jet ..

The things we dub SUPERnatural can be deducted to be Natural manifestations that eludes our expectations of a Natural occurrence and so takes a SUPER tilt.. That all lies in our own inability to grasp the tenets of such NATURAL phenomenon.


Thank you.


Personally i do not believe this your assertion, Perhaps a demonstration? Then we can understand it's mechanisms.

It is also ok for me to point out that there is a theoretical point in space/time where gravitational singularity runs in a spinning warped motioned wrapping the fabrics of space and time around it thereby creating a tunnel-like point that you can lead to another part of Space/time, alternate universe or ahead of time... Its called a wromhole or Einstein rosen bridge.

This is a theoretical postulation alongside blackholes by the theory of relativity, Now blackholes have been observed to be actual natural manifestations.

Wormholes and Whites holds still remain theoretical and mathematical predictions until observed in fact.

Difference between science and superstition; I don't see any scientists claiming blackholes are spirity manifestations and not natural



You are mistaken... Atheists do not mean one who don't believe in spirity stuffs...someone can believe in spirity stuffs and still is an atheist.

Atheists simply is one who don't believe in Gods..

JigsawKillah:



Accidental gini?

I visited a friend last week and while we were gently sipping or booze, an Urhobo song came up. We then talked about how Urhobo musicians dine with the Devil for fame and supremacy.

Note: at this point, we talked about what we've witnessed. His father is a renowned Medicine man and I happened to be drawn to Traditional stuffs.

He claimed a popular Urhobo musician named Okpan Arhibo was very powerful because he'd seen him hit his car against an electric pole and disappeared. He WAS a first hand witness to that.

On 3 occasions, I was told, that the same Okpan has a medicine that leaves his speakers as the only ones standing if he and other musicians are invited to play in shows.


You can ask any Urhobo person about the medicinal prowess of Okpan Arhibo.

Pdizzle:
I, though being a christian, have learnt a lot from the numerous intelligent atheists here trying to debunk the theism theory logically. I for one think they argue with very good points, but let's look in the direction of the African Traditional Religion. This is a religion where worshippers tends to see and feel the effectiveness of the African voodoo on a practical basis.
These traditionalist not only rely on faith as in the case of Christianity.
There are likewise situation in the christendom too, in the case of prophecies, miracles e.t.c even though some are proven to be hoax. But we have some people with one-on-one experiences.
My questions are; What is the stance of you atheists on the African Traditional Religion? These are proofs of supernatural powers.
Won't it be unfair if you accept the existence of these dieties and deny the existence of Jehovah?
Or are you intelligent folks saying 'powers that be' don't exist at all?
What are your views on witches, sorcerers, magicians etc.

CoolUsername:
But where was their jazz when the whites attacked?

CoolUsername:
But where was their jazz when the whites attacked?

krattoss:
contd.


now look at these analysis..


had it been a freethinker or an inquisitive guy like me didn't stumble on him, he could have fallen a victim..


now with the fear of running mad if he tells people the secret, he couldn't have said it and if people finally knew atlast, they will resort to calling it jazz..


now have u seen that at the end of the day, jazz isn't involved in one chance? ..


so is so many of them..

my point in a nutshell is that their are hidden secrets behind these jazz of urs. that's why they do it secretly and don't involve much of public cos of scrutiny and flawing of their so called juju.

onetrack:
It is my firm conviction that everything has a natural explanation. If someone says that they saw juju working, then I presume that they were tricked by some clever charlatan. I have never seen anything supernatural, and there are people in the west who have rewards waiting for someone who can really do juju/magic. But no one is ever able to claim the reward.

macof:


Faith in African traditions

GooseBaba:



Bros, what you're doing is infusing abrahamics concept to African traditional concepts. Kindly go back and ask that medicine man his concept of "devil"..

You made mention of the medicinal prowess of Okpan Arhibo. Is it not part of nature how did it become "devilish"..we have now condem knowledge of our ancestors to the realm of darkness because of indoctrinated prejudice. It's like going into a science lab and invoking the devil on the tools... It makes no sense!

What the op is also failing to see, is that he/she is trying to fit African traditional concepts under the umbrella of abrahamics concept. One thing is for sure, African Gods stand on their own, they do not need to condemn others in order to be relevant. Christianity MUST condem. That's why they're easy target for ridicule.

johnydon22:
[b]First of all i will approach this from the perspective of my own native traditional religion and that is Igbo Traditional Religion..

First i will start by correcting the wrong impressions you have on these religions because obviously you seem to have swallowed what you were told about these religions.

-African traditional Religion (Igbo religion) is henotheistic and in the main context takes a Deistic or in another context can be given a pantheistic tilt in the sense that it asserts One Supreme Deity In the Igbo religion known as Chukwu.

This deity is unknown, nobody knows what it is, nobody can comprehend that Chukwu.

Nobody knows it's features, neither does it speak to anyone, neither does it have a priest, have a shrine or demands worship... It is just some form of universal unifying infinite power unknown to man which can be referred to as a representation of the universe in entirety.

The other deities which you mentioned here to be worshipped in this ATR are intermediaries (Small deities) The main concept is a lone single universal force..

Looking at these intermediaries it is not so hard to find that these deities are personifications of certain natural elements in relation to their effects on human life.

E.g in Igbo religion...

We have Igwekala (Amadioha) ... God of thunder
Ani- Goddess of land
Iyi -Goddess of the river
Fijioku- God of yam
Ekwensu - God of tricks and trade ..

And so goes on to numerous other natural elements and manifestations personified with anthropomorphical attributes.

Lastly in a personal scale the igbo religion asserts personal Gods peculiar to every individual called CHI... this Chi is incharge of everything that happens to the individual and in my own understanding CHI is an anthropomorphical personification of FATE.

Note

- African Traditional Religion is Henotheism (Asserts an unknown God) but recognize existence of other deities (gods)

-African traditional Religion do not necessarily comprise Voodoo and Juju mysticism.

- African Traditional Religion has many unfounded superstitions, myths and legends buttered into the very heart of these beliefs.

Mysticism is African traditional religion is a form of Natural Science whereby people manipulate nature using determined natural components..

In igbo it is called Odinani..

E.g- Rain Making ---->
You may stand here to argue that Rain making is a supernatural event but it is just manipulation of natural elements through other known natural elements to ensure a reaction of these elements to get a desired result.

Rain making involves burning of a particular type of dried leaf near the desired vicinity (This is a traditional means of cloud seeding, in this modern time application of Silver Iodide to a cloud will release the H₂ the cloud hoards)

So it appeals to simple logic that the smoke of these dried plants has the same effect on clouds just like silver iodide.

Someone arguing this is a phenomenon above natural manifestation is sadly mistaken.. What we call supernatural occurrence are just natural reactions we dont know how there are achieved, have no explanations for, contradicts our expectation or just don't understand yet

But in actuality phenomenas that manifest in this natural world suggest there are measurable and therefore suggests their actuality can be ascertained if looked into.

Blackholes breaks almost all the laws of physics we have, this does not make Blackholes supernatural phenomenas, No it shows that natural manifestations do not have one way of manifestation, it is diverse, it is numerous and it can be random.

An atom can be in two places at a time, this is not anything supernatural.. It is all but supernatural.. Quantum spookiness has shown us that that nature is far more crazier than we think.


So personally to me----> These claims of spooky mystic events imbedded in the very heart of some mystical manifestations are not independent of natural interactions, there are just natural phenomenons we have no idea how there were reached.


Of course i have my limits in the aspects of these claims i take serious; Like Rain making, Traditional Medication and so on..

But when it comes to some of the claims like Spirit Children, Ghosts.. These ones i make out to be childish superstition made out by fearful minds in the light of unexplained or unexpected events.

Was watching Discovery Channel just right now and Some primitive tribe that lives in the very heart of an untouched forest world still thinks Illnesses are as a result of Spirit attacks.

Such superstitions are what i reject in the face of these local beliefs.


For your case of Christian, Hindu and even Islam miracle claims, Prophecies and so forth is not far from mere hoax, reverse psychology and mere tricks.

I have watched Youtube videos of Buddhist monk levitating.. (If you find out the mechanism behind it, you will call yourself an idiot for first staring in awe at the wondrous sight.)

Muslims would dub simple cases of Pareidolia to be miracles of Allah, or Christians seeing Jesus and Mary in bread toasts.. (Pareidolia is a phenomenon whereby you see familiar figures on an unrelated medium...Like the Face of Mars )

Christian miracle claims are hilarious, Haven't we always noticed that these Miracles only works on cases that can still go anyway. . . Malaria got healed, stomach ache got healed, she vomited in Church etc.... Flimsy feeble cases of Placebo.

Why are we not seeing An Amputated limb grown back? (Or is that impossible)

Until they start showing us things like Amputated clean limbs grown back such claims as feeble miracles will always remain childish and laughable.

More so in the Case of the famous Faith Healer Benny Hinn who was flown on a helicopter to a specialist hospital when he fell ill but he is claiming to heal others.. (


-Prophecies ---> Aaaaaah very wonderful...
A prophecy can be anything, you can pick up any word of the Gilgamesh Epic now and relate to any event on earth now and Voila we have a fulfilled prophecy.

Or pick up any phrase from Nostradamus's compilation, check and you must see an event to relate it with and Booom!! we have a prophecy.

This is just what we are seeing the prophecy claims of both Christianity and Islam..

"I can as well tell you now that before this year runs out you will find what you seek" This word bears no weight on reality but you might find a job, find a girl and Booom!!! Johnydon22's prophecy was legit.

Or maybe i can tell you that A white ram will attack a black ram sometime in the future" France attacks ISIS ...Gbam.. my prophecy is fulfilled.. France is the white RAM and ISIS the black.

In all these claims i see nothing to suggest there are anymore than childish lay outs that can only slap the gullible.


Lastly to correct the final impression.

You seem to make Atheists out to be those that do not believe in supernatural Claims.. Voodoo, spirity mumbo jumbo and stuffs.

No there are many atheists who believe these stuffs, belief in spirity stuffs is very independent of Belief in God or Gods.

One can believe in Spirity Voodoo stuffs and yet don't believe in God (Still an atheist)

One can believe in God and even Christianity or islam or ATR and not believe in spirity stuffs.


Please atheists are not people that do not believe in Voodoo juju things, No we have many atheists who do.

Atheists simply means lack of belief in any God (Deity)

Though many atheists tend to rely sorely on scientific explanations and some go as far as discarding such claims.

I am of the opinion from the tricks i have seen that these are just events we do not know how there are achieved or how it happened or contradicts our expectations of a natural event.

But these to me are all manifestations of nature and anything that manifests in the confines of nature is measurable at least in a quantum scale.

Anyone who asserts something that manifests in a natural scale and then asserts it immeasurable or independent of natural confines is either lying, hallucinating or plain idiotic..

Nature has no one way of manifestation we should always bear that in mind.. [/b]

johnydon22:

This is the same thing Plaetton was saying or does it make more sense if you put it your own way?

You could say Inexplicable and i would put YET... Because as long as such phenomenon manifests in this confine of nature it can be measured if checked and it's actuality ascertained if studied.

If you take an Electric bulb back in time like 234BC people would term it a supernatural occurrence or if you fly a jet ..

The things we dub SUPERnatural can be deducted to be Natural manifestations that eludes our expectations of a Natural occurrence and so takes a SUPER tilt.. That all lies in our own inability to grasp the tenets of such NATURAL phenomenon.

Personally i do not believe this your assertion, Perhaps a demonstration? Then we can understand it's mechanisms.

It is also ok for me to point out that there is a theoretical point in space/time where gravitational singularity runs in a spinning warped motioned wrapping the fabrics of space and time around it thereby creating a tunnel-like point that you can lead to another part of Space/time, alternate universe or ahead of time... Its called a wromhole or Einstein rosen bridge.

This is a theoretical postulation alongside blackholes by the theory of relativity, Now blackholes have been observed to be actual natural manifestations.

Wormholes and Whites holds still remain theoretical and mathematical predictions until observed in fact.

Difference between science and superstition; I don't see any scientists claiming blackholes are spirity manifestations and not natural

[b][i]

Pdizzle:


Nice post johny, i agree and disagree with you at the same time. There's is a lot of confusion in these traditional religions, for example ; Initiates are actually different from herbalists and we have situations where a single individual could actually be both.

In the case of rain making, it still happens today, and most rain makers are not even initiates, just people who know these procedures even though they don't understand the science.

I agree there's a lot of science in ATR, but i think there's a lot of mysteries too.

How do we explain human disappearance.
Bear it in mind there more than enough people who have witnessed it.

I wouldn't like us to go into Christianity here. I learnt a lot from your post. Thanks.

Pdizzle:



Sorry i made the "inexplicable" part sort of repetition, i was trying to paint a different picture in the sense that ; Supernatural should have a standard, it should be something that defies all logic, as in the case of human disappearance.

Not believing is not non-existence, enough first hand witnesses ,

the wormhole argument can actually hold if there's is a particular area for such occurrence, don't you think?

I know you've heard of thunderbolt, how do we explain that.

johnydon22:

You see in the case of natural manifestation i myself know that it has no one way of manifestation and what ever manifestation nature takes is not independent of natural confines but is part of nature and can reveals to us more about nature.

Just like you are implying what we call SUPERnatural are phenomenons that defiles out expectations of a natural manifestations.

I gave an e.g with One atom being in two places at once or wells of infinite gravitational pull

The case of disappearance, i'd say demonstration before i buy such stories ..

Correct and neither does believing it makes it existential if its not..

I explained the theoretical mechanism behind the wormhole.... I only used the wormhole to show you nature also probably possess such ability..

If we can create a blackhole in the laboratory here then we won't be far from getting a wormhole..



You mean like Lightening and thunder right? cus i believe thats pretty elementary..

johnydon22:

This again has nothing to do with the traditional belief my brother, Initiations in tradition the far as i know is a cultural thing.

A form of welcoming someone into manhood..

Please there is nothing like initiating someone into the traditional belief, initiation is more about the little cults around the tradition interwoven in the cultural fabrics of the people like Masquerade cults


Most of the rain makers don't understand the science behind it thats why most of them attribute it to spirity stuffs.

You don't need to be an initiate of anything to seed the cloud with Silver iodide. So it may be their beliefs to perform an initiation ceremony to welcome a member into the group and keep the belief alive but thats all what is it.

Doesn't mean that if you know the science behind it the rain wouldn't fall for you..


there is a lot of mystery in everything, we have only explored 1% of the earth's ocean depth the rest remains a mystery.

Mysteries are questions left unanswered.


Let me clear here.. Have never seen such except on nollywood and America got talent magic shows.

Maybe a demonstration and we can study it's mechanics.


Me too though, only addressed the points you raised about it on your Op..

Pdizzle:


I meant you have to be an initiate before you become a babalawo in yoruba land i.e You undergo special rites to get welcomed into their midst and allowed to practice.

Well thats for the babalowo cult, it still has nothing to do with our African traditional beliefs in general...i pointed out it has to be for minor cults

I know initiations is on different level, what I'm saying is that most rain makers are not even initiates in the babalawo cult.

If you really want to see someone dissappear, i can hook you up. Lol

Why not.. mind you i don't need cover cloth disappear kind of magic trick... i want .. face to face i deh look you disappear type..

Pdizzle:


Thanks johny. This ATR arguements always come to a point of 'see before i believe'.

But if you really want to see i could link you up.

The case of human dissappearance still not clear to science, for now I'll term it supernatural.

Thunderbolt has nothing to do with lightening, it is called 'Magun' in yoruba, it's a form of adultery control technique, where a supposed adulterous woman cross over a jazzed broomstick unknowingly, and the cheating patner dies when next they have sex. I serve in a rural area and this one is real, we were even specially warned about it.
What do you think about it.