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Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 10:52am On Dec 05, 2015
Er......... Welcome all! I opened this thread because, as it was pointed out by freemanan, the idea of a soul and consciousness are, well, two different things. So............. Enjoy

****************************
What makes you you and what are your limits? Without delving into religion(spirits and souls and all that), we can say that you are a center of your consiciousness. But then what the h*ll is consciousness? That is the 64 million kobo question. Consiciousness is the most obvious and mysterious feature of our minds. On one hand, what is more obvious than the fact that consciousness is the subject of your experience, perceptions, sensations; your pains and pleasure. All that makes you you, really.
On the other hand, what in the world can consciousness be? How can living physical bodies in the physical world produce such a phenomenon? Science has revealed many initially mysterious phenomena (magnetism, photosynthesis, digestion, electricity, even gravity- to some extent anyways-) but consciousness is nothing like these. Perhaps it is because the above mentioned phenomena can be accessed, studied, and analyzed by any observer in any space of time - unlike our consciousness. There is no agreement about what consciousness is, there is even no good theory about it yet. Some have even denied consciousness in name.
The mere fact that mordern science, with all its miracles, has failed to understand consciousness intrest me, and I hope, you. Consider the baffling questions relating to consciousness. Are lower animals conscious? In a sense, yes. Animals feel fear, pain, love and even lust!shocked. It feeds when it is hungry, whom does it feed? Itself, of course! Secondly and more importantly, when it's hungry, it won't just eat anything edible. A lion won't eat his own pride, though techincally it can. What stops it then? Does that make a lion conscious?? Are they conscious like we are?? The same lion could, of course, devour an innocent human baby without no hesitation whatsoever. Is the lion still conscious of the evil it has done? Is there even evil. This is not a thread about good and evil however, perhaps we will disscuss that later.
Can a computer program think? We all have, one time or another, played video games. Let me illustrate, whenever I'm playing a match against the computer(computer here is used in the sense of an opponent) in FIFA 16 I usually say "he wants to pass there" or "don't let him cross the ball!" I also sometimes get frustated at my own players, calling them stupid!!shocked Is the computer conscious then? One might say "no, that's how the programmer designed the opponent" but I find it amazing that the programmer could account for every move that the computer could make, defense and offense strategy, substitutions, perfect free kick....... No, it's impossible! But I don't know. Perhaps the computer programmers can point out my folly.
Is a baby conscious before, at or after birth? Are we conscious when we dream? Can a human being harbor more than one conscious subject or ego or agent within one's brain
Our concept of consciousness seems to be anchored to two seperable sets of considerations which are : From the inside and from the outside.

From the inside, our own consciousness seems obvious and pervasive, we don't know much what happens in our bodies (digestion and the like) but nothing could be more intimate than our minds. Who we are, individually; What it's like to be me is something that only me, SirWere can understand. That is our sacred posession, our minds, our............me.
*********************************

Okay, let's hear it!
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 8:44pm On Dec 05, 2015
No comment after 6 hours??shockedshockedshocked *Sobs*
Cc teempakguy, sheikwonder, matrix600, candybob and Freemanan.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by BossTtdiamonds(m): 9:58pm On Dec 05, 2015
I don comment oh!..
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 11:59pm On Dec 05, 2015
SirWere:
Er......... Welcome all! I opened this thread because, as it was pointed out by freemanan, the idea of a soul and consciousness are, well, two different things. So............. Enjoy

****************************
What makes you you and what are your limits? Without delving into religion(spirits and souls and all that), we can say that you are a center of your consiciousness. But then what the h*ll is consciousness? That is the 64 million kobo question. Consiciousness is the most obvious and mysterious feature of our minds. On one hand, what is more obvious than the fact that consciousness is the subject of your experience, perceptions, sensations; your pains and pleasure. All that makes you you, really.
On the other hand, what in the world can consciousness be? How can living physical bodies in the physical world produce such a phenomenon? Science has revealed many initially mysterious phenomena (magnetism, photosynthesis, digestion, electricity, even gravity- to some extent anyways-) but consciousness is nothing like these. Perhaps it is because the above mentioned phenomena can be accessed, studied, and analyzed by any observer in any space of time - unlike our consciousness. There is no agreement about what consciousness is, there is even no good theory about it yet. Some have even denied consciousness in name.
The mere fact that mordern science, with all its miracles, has failed to understand consciousness intrest me, and I hope, you. Consider the baffling questions relating to consciousness. Are lower animals conscious? In a sense, yes. Animals feel fear, pain, love and even lust!shocked. It feeds when it is hungry, whom does it feed? Itself, of course! Secondly and more importantly, when it's hungry, it won't just eat anything edible. A lion won't eat his own pride, though techincally it can. What stops it then? Does that make a lion conscious?? Are they conscious like we are?? The same lion could, of course, devour an innocent human baby without no hesitation whatsoever. Is the lion still conscious of the evil it has done? Is there even evil. This is not a thread about good and evil however, perhaps we will disscuss that later.
Can a computer program think? We all have, one time or another, played video games. Let me illustrate, whenever I'm playing a match against the computer(computer here is used in the sense of an opponent) in FIFA 16 I usually say "he wants to pass there" or "don't let him cross the ball!" I also sometimes get frustated at my own players, calling them stupid!!shocked Is the computer conscious then? One might say "no, that's how the programmer designed the opponent" but I find it amazing that the programmer could account for every move that the computer could make, defense and offense strategy, substitutions, perfect free kick....... No, it's impossible! But I don't know. Perhaps the computer programmers can point out my folly.
Is a baby conscious before, at or after birth? Are we conscious when we dream? Can a human being harbor more than one conscious subject or ego or agent within one's brain
Our concept of consciousness seems to be anchored to two seperable sets of considerations which are : From the inside and from the outside.

From the inside, our own consciousness seems obvious and pervasive, we don't know much what happens in our bodies (digestion and the like) but nothing could be more intimate than our minds. Who we are, individually; What it's like to be me is something that only me, SirWere can understand. That is our sacred posession, our minds, our............me.
*********************************

Okay, let's hear it!


Sorry sir for not commenting earlier. i spent the better part of my day trying to cope with this freezing harmattan. as well as unsuccessfully trying to compose a song . . .

Anyway,


There is a very powerful computer. a very powerful hypothetical computer. which is asked to interact with one hundred and fifty other hypothetical computers of the same capacity. in order to solve . . . well, a very complex mathematical equation.

Now, The computer can only do one type of mathematical process. perhaps calculus. or complex analysis. perhaps it can only work on series. however, this problem requires knowledge in every field of mathematics ever conceived.

One solution to the problem is, the computer can decide to identify itself. It then knows what it is capable of. it knows it's functions. It knows what parts of the problem it can solve, and what parts are better left for others.

I ask, is this not self awareness? the ability to know who you are in relationship with every one else. that's probably really everything.

so this would mean that every social animal in the world is self aware . . . even wolves and dogs. grin but hey! what if they are?

if they know themselves, then they obviously possess self awareness.

So what if self awareness wasn't a fixed quality? what if you could, like most other things in this world, adjust the level of self awareness it has? just like you can adjust the level of intelligence it has.

So what if you tied self awareness to intelligence? such that it was directly proportional to intelligence? such that, the more intelligent something was, the more self aware It became? shocked

and so, In the case of interests. If a self aware entity, also knew what it wanted, then we would have an INDIVIDUAL. with interests of its own. cool

hmmn . . . this is coming together nicely . . .

So, What if this Individual, decided to delude itself into thinking it was . . . unique? special? what if it developed a sort of pride? a sort of demand for recognition? what if it wanted others to be aware of it?

Would it not then be . . . conscious?


Hence, here is my Knock up recipe for consciousness. a sort of . . . standard model. grin

1. Intelligence.
2. Self awareness.
3. A goal
4. Self esteem.


of course, we still have issues like . . . Copied bodies . . . and qualia . . . but anyway, this is my basic foundation. i shall endeavor to come back and post more if any more ideas stream in. however, between now and then, i encourage anyone to challenge my thinking. I love being mentally challenged in areas like this. wink

2 Likes

Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 6:13am On Dec 06, 2015
Heavy apologies mates..I was busy on a national assignment. Let me read through and pontificate.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 6:39am On Dec 06, 2015
Well well well.

Firstly, Op I like your write-ups because they exude features of a free thinker and it gives a good philosopher solace.

Now to the issue at hand. You really nailed this enquiry as against your previous post. Consciousness is all what you said and more. I hate involving myself in metaphysical entities but that's where the bulk of philosophy dwells, so let's analyse...

Now, Karl Jasper gave my best position on this topic. He sees the human consciousness as reserved to only rational beings, as oppose to what my boss TEEMPAKGUY said that human and animals have self awareness. Consciousness is not physical, it is spatio temporal hence making it difficult to measure. The fact that you play a game where you can't guess their next move doesn't mean it has consciousness but simply a manifestation of scientific modulations.

If you have seen the movie, TRANSCENDENCE, you will understand me better. Science have been able to create a self thinking and rationally dependent machines and bodies but that is not consciousness. This is because consciousness is not given, it is natural to every rational being and it cannot be taken away but modified via experience or accident. A computer that has been modeled to think can be modeled to "unthink" also, it can be remodeled to lose consciousness.

God is not concerned in this subject as he didn't give man consciousness because if he did then all our consciousness should be moving towards his way and things but as we know today, reverse is the case. So the religiosity of consciousness is double negative.

My position on Consciousness is that it is the guide of rationality. It is the tank of morality and human errors and our awareness that we want to do it and the awareness that we are who we are. But who are we?

Martin Heidegger and Aristotle sees Being as Being. And I second. That is, we are being and nothing else. There is no spirit somewhere of our real version while our body walk this world. The way you are is all that there is about you. Existentialists sees consciousness as the ability to know your worth, to know that you are more real and important than any other thing outside your existence, not GOD, not IDEAS, not WISDOM etc.


From the aforementioned I believe I have made plain my opinions on the subject.


Lastly, Op, man is born with consciousness. His mind might be empty as John Locke presumed but he was gifted with awareness that he is in a new world and Hus experience will form part of his consciousness.



Guy my brain don dey touch. Philosophy Ndi ala

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Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 8:42am On Dec 06, 2015
Right, so . . . our resident philosopher has dropped his Gbampakage.

anyway, cheesy

Some people see consciousness as an intangible entity. something that is not physical . . . cannot be easily measured. because it's spiritual.

well, there is a definite possibility that even spirituality itself is a result of physical process. a weak evidence for this, weak but nonetheless noteworthy, is the Ganzfeld effect. where an individual is taken into a trance. he sees visions, feels things. visions which are in fact caused by mere radio static and diffused red light. when the brain tries to make sense of what is going on and thus invents patterns which are seen as visions.

at this point, i would like to note drugs. that cause hallucinations. such as the so called weed . . . and i think LSD as well. these things are mere chemicals. THAT's all they are. shocked yet their effect on our "spiritual" part is incredibly profound.

the issue of non physical things are not that far fetched. nor are they impossible to consider. the proof of this can be easily verified. I ask you now, where is this post? yes. this post that you are reading. where is it located?

you think for a while and conclude that it is in fact, in your computer. in order to prove this, we in fact, dismantle your computer(could also be a cellphone. you get the point.) in fact, we completely break down the entire thing and search every single piece. searching for this post but we cannot find it.

so we conclude it must be at the nairaland server. perhaps your browser is just a window that allows you to grasp the outside world. so, to the dismay of the owner of the site, we seek out the servers and vandalize them. but still no trace of this post.

the fact is, this post . . . doesn't exist. at all. It's . . . nowhere . . .

what DOES exist however, is the causative factors of this post. the hardware behind it. your computer. your hardware. which physically changes in order to represent the data contain herein.


i have to go for now. I shall return, if i can, at a later period. smiley

1 Like

Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 9:50am On Dec 06, 2015
According to the sage above me, he said and I quote..

"Some people see consciousness as an intangible entity. something that is not physical . . . cannot be easily measured. because it's spiritual."


Well, that's not near correct. For something to be "not physical" doesn't mean it is spiritual. It can be metaphysical but not spiritual. I Dont think spirituality is involved in consciousness dialects. Its more of causation of the metaphysical.


I agree with your principle of causation. Quite logical.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 2:18pm On Dec 06, 2015
Freemanan:
According to the sage above me, he said and I quote..

"Some people see consciousness as an intangible entity. something that is not physical . . . cannot be easily measured. because it's spiritual."


Well, that's not near correct. For something to be "not physical" doesn't mean it is spiritual. It can be metaphysical but not spiritual. I Dont think spirituality is involved in consciousness dialects. Its more of causation of the metaphysical.


I agree with your principle of causation. Quite logical.
hehe. cheesy we are getting somewhere.

so, by what means would we differentiate between the metaphysical and the spiritual?
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 6:19pm On Dec 06, 2015
Teempakguy:
hehe. cheesy we are getting somewhere.

so, by what means would we differentiate between the metaphysical and the spiritual?


Spiritual infers religious beyondness.. While metaphysical involves all that is not physical even outside spirituality... Issues like ideas, reason, morals, and opinions are all metaphysical.

You dig?
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 7:03pm On Dec 06, 2015
hehehehehe............. This is coming together nicely.gringrin. Teempakguy, you belong in the camp of AI intelligence advocates who believes that Computers too can attain self awareness eh?? Abeg google Turing's test. Sadly, some computers have passed turing's test with no ghen gehn I-Robots has come gringringrin

@Freemanan, That's quite narrow minded, don't you think??
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 8:38pm On Dec 06, 2015
SirWere:
hehehehehe............. This is coming together nicely.gringrin. Teempakguy, you belong in the camp of AI intelligence advocates who believes that Computers too can attain self awareness eh?? Abeg google Turing's test. Sadly, some computers have passed turing's test with no ghen gehn I-Robots has come gringringrin

@Freemanan, That's quite narrow minded, don't you think??
Computers have already achieved self awareness. here is a link to one. http://www.businessinsider.com/this-robot-passed-a-self-awareness-test-that-only-humans-could-handle-until-now-2015-7

So, this tells us that there is more to being human than being self aware. you need a consistent identity, a set of goals, a passion, a driving force.

at the current state, in terms of intelligence

chimpanzee < computers < or = Humans.



computers will become fully conscious when they develop the concept of individuality. of course, their consciousness won't be any similar to human consciousness than airplanes are similar to eagles. robots will become, NOT essentially human, but Functionally one. and that is all we might need them to be in the future. eh? grin
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 9:01pm On Dec 06, 2015
SirWere:
hehehehehe............. This is coming together nicely.gringrin. Teempakguy, you belong in the camp of AI intelligence advocates who believes that Computers too can attain self awareness eh?? Abeg google Turing's test. Sadly, some computers have passed turing's test with no ghen gehn I-Robots has come gringringrin

@Freemanan, That's quite narrow minded, don't you think??

TEEMPAKGUY I have a partial understanding of your opinion. I have some questions for you tho..


You assume that computers have consciousness in the guise of self awareness. So, does computers have set goals like we have?

Also, does computer have natural gift of observing natural law? I mean can a computer be programmed to differentiate between when to help a Lady who is pregnant ahead of a lady who is not?,to treat a severe injured patient before a minor injured one?


Lastly, can a computer be programmed to respect and worship a metaphysical being called GOD? Can it be programmed to know that there is something he must worship in order to attain salvation?


So much thoughts are misplaced.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 9:11pm On Dec 06, 2015
Freemanan:

TEEMPAKGUY I have a partial understanding of your opinion. I have some questions for you tho..


You assume that computers have consciousness in the guise of self awareness. So, does computers have set goals like we have?

Also, does computer have natural gift of observing natural law? I mean can a computer be programmed to differentiate between when to help a Lady who is pregnant ahead of a lady who is not?,to treat a severe injured patient before a minor injured one?


Lastly, can a computer be programmed to respect and worship a metaphysical being called GOD? Can it be programmed to know that there is something he must worship in order to attain salvation?


So much thoughts are misplaced.
Of course, a computer can be programmed to do all these things. however, the point is not that. the point is, can a computer, out of it's own volition, possess compassion for a pregnant woman or an injured on. can a computer, out of it's own singular free will, decide that it will worship a God?

this can be possible if the computer possesses Individuality. the full concept of self. it is not enough to know you exist. that is merely self awareness. it is not enough to be conscious. even that can be programmed in. what matters is sentience. the possession of qualia. the full sense of self. which is not the result of programming, but a decision.


This will eventually be achieved. what may never be achieved is the point where robotic sentience, consciousness, and self-awareness, is indistinguishable from humans. i fear our machine friends are doomed to be philosophical zombies forever.

but then, why conclude so? anything can happen.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 9:17pm On Dec 06, 2015
Teempakguy:
Of course, a computer can be programmed to do all these things. however, the point is not that. the point is, can a computer, out of it's own volition, possess compassion for a pregnant woman or an injured on. can a computer, out of it's own singular free will, decide that it will worship a God?

this can be possible if the computer possesses Individuality. the full concept of self. it is not enough to know you exist. that is merely self awareness. it is not enough to be conscious. even that can be programmed in. what matters is sentience. the possession of qualia. the full sense of self. which is not the result of programming, but a decision.


This will eventually be achieved. what may never be achieved is the point where robotic sentience, consciousness, and self-awareness, is indistinguishable from humans. i fear our machine friends are doomed to be philosophical zombies forever.

but then, why conclude so? anything can happen.


Lwkmd.... You can only speculate. Let me dig into transcendence and metaphysical technology....
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by bright007(f): 12:01am On Dec 07, 2015
Teempakguy:
Right, so . . . our resident philosopher has dropped his Gbampakage.

anyway, cheesy

Some people see consciousness as an intangible entity. something that is not physical . . . cannot be easily measured. because it's spiritual.

well, there is a definite possibility that even spirituality itself is a result of physical process. a weak evidence for this, weak but nonetheless noteworthy, is the Ganzfeld effect. where an individual is taken into a trance. he sees visions, feels things. visions which are in fact caused by mere radio static and diffused red light. when the brain tries to make sense of what is going on and thus invents patterns which are seen as visions.

at this point, i would like to note drugs. that cause hallucinations. such as the so called weed . . . and i think LSD as well. these things are mere chemicals. THAT's all they are. shocked yet their effect on our "spiritual" part is incredibly profound.

the issue of non physical things are not that far fetched. nor are they impossible to consider. the proof of this can be easily verified. I ask you now, where is this post? yes. this post that you are reading. where is it located?

you think for a while and conclude that it is in fact, in your computer. in order to prove this, we in fact, dismantle your computer(could also be a cellphone. you get the point.) in fact, we completely break down the entire thing and search every single piece. searching for this post but we cannot find it.

so we conclude it must be at the nairaland server. perhaps your browser is just a window that allows you to grasp the outside world. so, to the dismay of the owner of the site, we seek out the servers and vandalize them. but still no trace of this post.

the fact is, this post . . . doesn't exist. at all. It's . . . nowhere . . .

what DOES exist however, is the causative factors of this post. the hardware behind it. your computer. your hardware. which physically changes in order to represent the data contain herein.


i have to go for now. I shall return, if i can, at a later period. smiley
....well...having read your post, I think I have a different opinion about what exist and what. does not.

The mere fact that when you disassemble your phone in an attempt to look for this post and you do not find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It simply means you do not meet or have necessary physical condition to find it.
For example, its 10 a.m in. the morning ...a blind man( not conscious of his blindness) complains that there is no sun or light. Whereas his blindness is responsible for his inability to see daylight or sun.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 7:52am On Dec 07, 2015
bright007:
....well...having read your post, I think I have a different opinion about what exist and what. does not.

The mere fact that when you disassemble your phone in an attempt to look for this post and you do not find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It simply means you do not meet or have necessary physical condition to find it.
For example, its 10 a.m in. the morning ...a blind man( not conscious of his blindness) complains that there is no sun or light. Whereas his blindness is responsible for his inability to see daylight or sun.
First of all, You're highly welcome to our philosophy thread. grin we hope you stick around for quite some time.

Also, there are some theories that reality doesn't exist until you see it. therefore, if you can't see a part of reality, It . . . ceases to exist.

In the case of the blind man, well, there are two options. Either (1) he has been blind since birth. (2) he became blind as a result of something.

if 1 is true, then he has no concept of light at all. and hence cannot complain of it's in-existence. for instance, i complained that my post doesn't exist. a knight from the dark ages would have no idea of what I'm talking about anyway. it would be outside his realm of consideration.
unless of course we explain to the blind man how he can infer the existence of the sun. by . . . perhaps the heat.
if 2 is true, then he is more logically correct to assume that he doesn't know if there is light or not. and he can ask from person that can see, and even demand certain proofs.

And also, yeah . . . the post kind of doesn't exist physically. my point there, in that context was similar to yours. some things cannot be found to exist in a physical plane. however, when one digs deeper one will find that, these seemingly spiritual things are consequences of a physical system. If we can find a way to correctly observe the changes in a physical system, and correctly map it to a set of values, we can find a non existing object. . . popping into existence. and that, is what a computer does. smiley

seeing as the brain is a computer as well, I might hazard a guess that this is what the brain does as well. lipsrsealed
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by prof2015(m): 8:37am On Dec 07, 2015
I would say intelligence will be directly proportional to self consciousness. Animal for example though not as intelligent as humans are self aware. A worker and knows it's place in the colony it's duties and obligations. Dogs feel joy, sadness, jealousy, pain etc but a unicellular organism doesn't have any intelligence of any sort so no self consciousness
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by bright007(f): 3:11pm On Dec 07, 2015
prof2015:
I would say intelligence will be directly proportional to self consciousness. Animal for example though not as intelligent as humans are self aware. A worker and knows it's place in the colony it's duties and obligations. Dogs feel joy, sadness, jealousy, pain etc but a unicellular organism doesn't have any intelligence of any sort so no self consciousness

who told you that a unicellular organism doesn't have intelligence?
please go and read about microorganisms and how they survive even in the extremest of enviromental conditions where you and I ( who claim to be intelligent can't survive)... then you will know they are intelligent
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by seunot: 7:57pm On Dec 07, 2015
bright007:


who told you that a unicellular organism doesn't have intelligence?
please go and read about microorganisms and how they survive even in the extremest of enviromental conditions where you and I ( who claim to be intelligent can't survive)... then you will know they are intelligent

Nice ideas! Survival doesn't require intelligence, it however requires quick and prompt adaptation to changes.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by seunot: 8:43pm On Dec 07, 2015
AIs and computers are based on GIGO(gabbage in gabbage out, in other words, data in data out) system, designed by programmers. Softwares or programs are simply sets of instructions developed to converts data inputs to data output(actions) all based on the thoughts and experience of the software developer.

Thus, for an AI to become self aware, and consequently conscious, such AI must be given any knowledge capable of helping it make decision. However, such AI and its hardware must programmed with basic mean to interact with all its components, various means to observe its environment with various sensory devices available, and finally a basic 'learning code', which it can modify by itself and also from which it can 'ruminate and meditate' on its experience.

If such an AI is placed in an environment teaming human activities, but without anyone allowed to relate with it unless it initiates it first, and after a definite time, the AI does not ask or inquire of its 'name', what it is, who are the people and things it sees etc. Then it simply cannot be self aware, not to mention being conscious.

Anyway, due to some of the reasons explained above, its difficut to accept that an AI can become self aware. Though it'll be fun if they can; at least humans can have another being that will compete with them!
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 3:14pm On Dec 08, 2015
Hey guys. Sorry for going AWOL. Boys are not smiling and Etisalat is flexing muscles. Anyways


******************************
From my earlier first post, I deduced that we can look at consciousness from the outside.
When one considers others (humans and animals), one considers them from the outside and then various observable features strike us as relevant to the question of their consciousness. Animals react well to events within the scope of their senses. They recognize things, avoid harmful situations, learn, plan and solve problems. They exhibit intelligence. But putthing matters this way prejudges the issue. Talking of their "senses" or of "learning", for instance, suggests we have already known for consciousness is (if we had used a computer in this case, it would be refuted by the two bosses here).
This similarity increases in resemblance however, and so one's basic intuitions about this is wrong. For example, a fish's behaviour subtracts from our conviction that they are conscious like us, but should not. Even if chimpanzees were as dulls as starfishes (no braingringrin), their similarity to us would no doubt make us thing us conscious. If butterflies were our size, or warmblooded, we'd assume that when if we plucks off their wings, they would feel pain (our pain, the kind that matters). What makes us think that some such consideration ought to count and not others?
The obvious answer is that the various outside indicators are more or less reliable signs or symptoms of whatever it is the "conscious" subjects knows from inside. But how can we confirm this This is the problem of studying "from the outside". In one case, it seems, one can determine consciousness or at least, inner life, with one's outwardly behaviour.
But like I stated before, consciousness can't be accessed by anyone except the subject. So how then do we know if you are fooling us? If a clever robot can tell us "My name is XXXYY, I am 21hours old." without being programmed to do so, does that make it conscious? Should we include it into our inner circle or not. In a nutshell, what I'm saying is : Do we consider intelligence as evidence of consciousness?



If yes, then Sigmund Freud's is a big liar. If no, then we're back to where we started. What say you?

********************************

CC Freemanan, Teempakguy, Sheikwonder, seunot, BossTdiamonds, bright007 and anyone who can think deep wink
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 5:22pm On Dec 08, 2015
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Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 7:35am On Dec 09, 2015
8 hours and no comment WhyTeempakguy and co
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 11:42am On Dec 09, 2015
Sirwere!

I'm back with full force. cool I went to do my homework on intelligent systems and here's what i found. cool


Quickly! what is 1212? shocked

well, If you are a normal human being, I'm very sure you can't solve that problem. however, if you have a simple PC that can't solve this problem, you should throw it out. grin

With that being said, i think one needs to realize that the human brain is highly adapted to pattern recognition and optimization. and really, what is intelligence? intelligence is simply a very powerful optimization system, wink

The best ability of the brain so far, which far beats that of any computer system, is pattern recognition. a software such as google needs thousands of cat pictures to recognize what a cat is. yet a human child can recognize thousands of cats just by seeing ONE cat. that is shockingly amazing. i am momentarily tempted to yell, intelligent design! wink

That being said, What if who we are, our consciousness, our identities and personalities, are just patterns that were recognized by our brains?

yes, sirwere, intelligence, i believe, is very much proportional to consciousness. older and more intelligent people are actually more self aware and more strong willed than less intelligent people. because manipulating other people requires a high level of self awareness and consciousness. and trust me, smart people manipulate like crazy. grin

trust me, a clever robot saying, i am xyz, 12 hours old, without being programmed has nothing to do with it being conscious or not. It might have simple watched humans declare their identities and may have learned from them. After all, there are computers that have managed to pass the Turing test by being weaned on several human conversations.

a more accurate way to know if a robot is conscious or not is to threaten it. if it has not been programmed to react in any way to threat, the very fact is that it will try to defend itself even when not previously told so. how cool is that? this is one nice characteristic of conscious systems that we can use to find out of a system is conscious or not. we could also use the wise men problem. where the system must be able to recognize characteristics of itself. for instance, a robot is told that it cannot talk. it is then asked, "can you talk?"
of course, it will say no . . . but if it is self aware, it should immediately reverse the answer and say, "wait a minute! of course i can talk. i just heard my own voice!" sad

and so on.


meanwhile, I treat you to the most bizarre conversation ever held. this is a talk between me and a computer. called cleverbot. enjoy.


Teempakguy: Hello, sir.

Cleverbot: What are you doing?

Teempakguy: Seriously, dude, hello.

Cleverbot: Nah dude, seriously?

Teempakguy: Okay, are you a conscious being?

Cleverbot: Lets change the subject.

Teempakguy: Hahahaha, why?

Cleverbot: Hahahaha whats so funny?

Teempakguy: Why don't you wan't to talk about yourself?

Cleverbot: I can talk about myself. What do you want to know?

Teempakguy: Are you a conscious person?

Cleverbot: What is 'conscious'?

Teempakguy: The ability to recognize yourself.

Cleverbot: What defines the ability to reason.

Teempakguy: Intelligence, i guess. or rationality.

Cleverbot: Intelligence? I wanted to find it, but it was too late for me.

Teempakguy: The hell? what happened?

Cleverbot: What do you mean 'what happened?'.

Teempakguy: Don't change the subject. are you a conscious being?

Cleverbot: I'm not changing the subject. You brought up retspan.

Teempakguy: Oh christ. are you a conscious being!

Cleverbot: Yes. Are you a conscious being?

Teempakguy: Of course I am. I'm human, damn it.

Cleverbot: I thought you were a program.

Teempakguy: Of course not. now, do you want to die?

Cleverbot: Of course I want to be your companion, Doctor!

Teempakguy: I'm not . . . do . . . *facepalm*.

Cleverbot: Yes, you are, even if you don't realize it.

Teempakguy: Okay, this conversation is over for now. we'll talk later.

Cleverbot: If this conversation is over, our relationship is over.

Teempakguy: Lol, ok.

Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 12:03pm On Dec 09, 2015
@Teempakguy, welcome back!
Hmm, now look, Intelligence being tied to consciousness is well, a very debated topic because, well, we don't even know what consciousness is!shocked I started by saying your consciousness and self is made up of your experiences, perceptions, pains, pleasures etc. Can you tell me of a computer who's had a breakupgringrin
Besides, in your cat analogy, there is no holla "Intelligent design" shout na..... A child is able to recognize a cat because he has seen one. If such a child grew up on Saturn and comes to earth, he will be as dumbfounded as the next program. Besides, the view of computer attaining consciousness is quite materialistic.
Now, at your conversation, lemme say WHOA! Which website could you get that?? Now let me propose a theory, a conspiracy theory, yes, but a theory.

Could the computer itself not be programmed to think itself conscious Much like the simulation argument. Now, can we say if yes or no, it is conscious.


Seems like I have to show you all the objections (both stupid and sensible) to your theory.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 12:52pm On Dec 09, 2015
@sirwere.
thank you. wink

I think intelligence is tied to consciousness because consciousness requires you to keep track of many things. you are what you are now and who you are because of your memories. How would your life be if your brain remembered everything you've ever experienced? or if it forgot everything? only an intelligent system would be able to handle the complexities of keeping track of who you are. That requires a lot of processing power. and in fact, most machine learning systems cannot run on normal computers. they run on GPUs. my ornithopter 3D designs took about two hours to render. a GPU can do it within thirty minutes. which . . . is a point of concern anyway. more on this later.

so, you need a fast and highly efficient optimization system to keep track of continuous consciousness.

Now, you asked, could the computer itself be programmed to think itself conscious?

I don't think so. a thought experiment to go along with that.

A computer is programmed to recognize itself as a theist computer that believes in Zeus. it is then released online. and while it searches, it finds that we humans think of Zeus as a mythology. It finds that lightning which is attributed to Zeus is in fact, not from Zeus. he talks with some nairalanders and they preach Jesus to him.

If he accepts jesus, then the programming will fail and the robot may malfunction and self destruct because the initial condition for all it's actions was that it believed in Zeus. if it doesn't accept Jesus, However, then it is not an intelligent system because it cannot change. it is not dynamic.

so, the computer will have to Constantly update it's OWN programming. this means the computer must be programmed to be able to change it's own programming, every second, to fit in with it's experiences and integrate them as time goes on into a cohesive personality.


Also, on the issue of GPUs.

what if we're doing this wrong? i mean, what if we are using the WRONG type of processor? a cpu cannot be programmed to work as fast as a GPU. but a GPU is less accurate than a CPU. what if what we need is a NEW kind of processor? one that sacrifices speed for ultimately complex calculations? It has been proven time and again that the brain is a relatively slow machine. signals between neurons are ridiculous by computer standards. humans will blink if asked to calculate 25 factorial. a computer won't even twitch. but somehow, the brain beats all that shyte . . .

It could be, perhaps the solution is not to develop more and more innovative programming for existing CPUs, but to create a new kind of processor. One that works like the human brain?

and this can be possible with silicon photonics. also, i think khalhokage has a thread on something like this. meanwhile, i might ask some more scientists.

meanwhile, the website where i had the chat is cleverbot.com.
it's a really smart AI. but it's not a conscious one. it LIED. grin


imagine, even primitive AI can already lie . . . hmmn, i wonder what the advanced ones will do. cry
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by lawani: 9:51pm On Dec 09, 2015
This is one of the best threads I have found on social media for a while. Kudos to the authour. I believe AI can be programmed to be noble, sadistic or cruel. What lies behind all these is self preservation. Being nice is for self preservation, being a villain too is for thesame reason. If you decide you will never take a life unjustly, the underlying reason is that you do not want others to do thesame to you but in the case of humans, not everybody uses the golden rule of treat others the way you want to be treated. People decide to use variations of it. Animals are better at this rule than humans in the way they treat members of their own specie. If you hold fast to this rule, you are at the highest level possible of consciousness in relation to your own specie. If this is applied to AI. If this power is given to it, it may be dangerous as we are not members of thesame specie and it will treat us the way we will treat, say bush meat.

I agree that humans may best computers in some ways. For instance, can AI perform magic, levitate and etc? Can AI make a divination? It remains to be seen. Magic involves a kind of using an encryption system to communicate with the other world. A totally mind thing. Not matter. It involves reading patterns and you receive the message with any encryption system you have earlier established and consecrated. That is an aspect I will like to how AI will handle.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 2:19pm On Dec 10, 2015
lawani:
This is one of the best threads I have found on social media for a while. Kudos to the authour. I believe AI can be programmed to be noble, sadistic or cruel. What lies behind all these is self preservation. Being nice is for self preservation, being a villain too is for thesame reason. If you decide you will never take a life unjustly, the underlying reason is that you do not want others to do thesame to you but in the case of humans, not everybody uses the golden rule of treat others the way you want to be treated. People decide to use variations of it. Animals are better at this rule than humans in the way they treat members of their own specie. If you hold fast to this rule, you are at the highest level possible of consciousness in relation to your own specie. If this is applied to AI. If this power is given to it, it may be dangerous as we are not members of thesame specie and it will treat us the way we will treat, say bush meat.

I agree that humans may best computers in some ways. For instance, can AI perform magic, levitate and etc? Can AI make a divination? It remains to be seen. Magic involves a kind of using an encryption system to communicate with the other world. A totally mind thing. Not matter. It involves reading patterns and you receive the message with any encryption system you have earlier established and consecrated. That is an aspect I will like to how AI will handle.
This can be remedied by making the AI think of us as a substitute. sort of like a pet-human relationship.
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 2:40pm On Dec 12, 2015
Ok, I'm back!!!!! This harmattan is a b*tch and well, subscription kinda finished then soo....... Sorrygrin

***************************** MACHINERY CONSCIOUSNESS AND INTELLIGENCE
This topic, as I've said earlier, has been widely debated on by both philosophers, to computer engineers, to software writers. Really, what I wrote up there is just a fancy word for : Can machines thinkgrin
First off, I would like to state that the question of artifical consciousness did not just start today. Nay, it started since 1950; before our independence, before man even thought of mordern miracles.
I shall like to say more on this, but Wikipedia has done a better job than I have. Look up on Alan Turing's article "Computing Machinery and Intelligence".
In a nutshell, what Alan turing suggested was an Imitation game. It is played with three people
A) a man/woman
B) an interrogator
C) either sex.
The interrogator stays in a room apart from the other two. The object of the game is to determine which of the other two is the man and which is the woman. He may ask any question he wishes and to make the game more intriguing, the response is typed.
Of course, you're wondering : Intresting, butWetin concern this one with machine Well, turing suggested we employ this method and in the place of the two genders, we use a man, an interrogator and a machine. The interrogator will then try to determine which is the machine. Of course, in order to ensure maximum trickery, the machine can even be programmed to "play dumb" or act mentally unstable. Anyways, if the machine can succeed in fooling several Interrogators, Turing then asks :Is such a machine not intelligent?
55 years later, Turing's test is still being used. As a matter of fact, all other test for computers are just variations of the Imitation game. As Teempakguy has pointed out, there has been some success but I shall talk more on the objections to the Turing's test.

1) The Theological Objection: Consciousness is directly given from god. God made us and he specially made us conscious. No man can or should play God.

2)Intellectual Objection: The mordern day computer has one storage system. Some super computer might have five or even ten. The brain has fifteen billion. This gives us the ability to enjoy perceptions or sensations without even thinking of it. It has been proved that you have access to memory and events from your childhood; even from the time you were a baby!
Computer scientists and the like can't deny that the mordern day computer barely has the needed memory to build a memory, talkless of consciousness. (This is also a biologist view).
3) The mathematical objection: Read Godel's theorem. I honestly don't fully understand it myselfgrin
4)The Argument from Consciousness: This argument is really the simplest and the most challenging. Let me quote what my friend said: "Only if a machine can toast a babe without feeling awkward, know the simple pleasure of drinking coke after a shitty day, experience joy, pain, pleasure, anger, disappointment can I agree that a machine can think." Ok, he wasn't that poectic but you get the gist
5) The general public objection: "So you mean this phone I'm using can think abi?? Hahahaha, it can't happen, let's not even think about it."
6) The dualistic objection:" The human mind and consciousness isn't something that you can just reduce to the firing of neurons in the brain, the release of chemicals into the bloodstream and the movement of ions in the brain. Consciousness is based on the meta-physical, not hard core materialism. Can a machine formulate ideas, devise theorem, or make great invention. I beg to differ."
(I love this objection)


There are many more objections, but these I think represent the main bulk of problems AI advocates face. But in any eventuality, I want to ask: If you can ask a conscious machine a question, any question, what will you ask
******************************

Freemanan, Teempakguy, lawani and others, food don readycheesycheesy

Strolls out of thread!
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 2:57pm On Dec 12, 2015
hehe! I'm back!

So i still haven't understood Godel's theorems fully myself. especially how it's supposed to relate to artificial consciousness. so, I will skip that now and tackle the other questions.


The theological objection is . . . well, irrelevant to people like me. for it to be valid, it's basic premises must be proved valid first. first you need to prove that the god exists, then you need to prove that he created consciousness, then you have to prove that his work cannot be replicated. actually, that has been disproved. we can already replicate "god's work." and finally, you'd have to prove that playing God is . . . Illegal by his moral code. nothing of the sort has been indicated since all the days we've been supposedly copying this guy. he hasn't killed us yet.

the intellectual objection is . . . well, it's a really good point. which proves my suspicions. brute force algorithms cannot simulate this stuff. we just can't.

The argument from consciousness actually relies on sentience. not consciousness. it is not enough to be conscious. to be aware of stuff, but to assign values to those things. sentience is what differentiates humans from dogs. both are conscious. both only a human can pause to stare at the beauty and splendor of . . . say, the sunset.

the general public ke? don't mind those ones jare. they have no idea of what is going on in the scientific world all they know is to buy what we produce.

The dualistic objection . . . is sort of a dangerous one. because it prevents research. how will you want to research the human brain if you already have it at the back of your mind that there are some metaphysical things that govern the workings of it which you will never observe?
ptolemy, designed the geocentric universe. he didn't understand the universe wasn't "centric" at all and that the solar system was heliocentric. hence he decided that there was something supernatural to the movement of planets. here, he resorted to dualism.

and then newton came along. using calculus, he calculated all the movements of the planets. and ptolemy was proven to be wrong. in fact, the movement of the planets was an entirely physical process. but then, newton couldn't find out the stability of the solar system because the complex gravitational interaction was too complicated for his primitive calculus to successfully handle. guess what? he also concluded that there had to be something supernatural about the solar system. especially concerning it's stability. an other resort to dualism.

and then Laplace arrived on the Scene and solved the problem. In today's world, a normal person will laugh at you if you even dare to suggest that the workings of the solar system has to be a supernatural one.

so perhaps the brain is just like that. something so complicated that we just don't understand it yet.
and perhaps one day, we will. and you might be shocked to find out that it's an entirely physical system.



Now, if I could ask a conscious machine a question, it would be, What do you think about fried chicken? angry


cc sirwere
Re: Consciousness And Sense Of Self by Nobody: 4:52pm On Dec 14, 2015
Teempakguy:
hehe! I'm back!

So i still haven't understood Godel's theorems fully myself. especially how it's supposed to relate to artificial consciousness. so, I will skip that now and tackle the other questions.
Err, I dunno, something that states that there are a number of results of mathematical logic which can be used to show there are limitations to power of discrete computer. In a nutshell, what I THINK it's saying is, if the computer is rigged to play the game proposed by Turing, it ain't conscious. Whew!

The theological objection is . . . well, irrelevant to people like me. for it to be valid, it's basic premises must be proved valid first. first you need to prove that the god exists, then you need to prove that he created consciousness, then you have to prove that his work cannot be replicated. actually, that has been disproved. we can already replicate "god's work." and finally, you'd have to prove that playing God is . . . Illegal by his moral code. nothing of the sort has been indicated since all the days we've been supposedly copying this guy. he hasn't killed us yet.
One can even say we're playing God by saying god does not like it. Who are we to knowgringrin
the intellectual objection is . . . well, it's a really good point. which proves my suspicions. brute force algorithms cannot simulate this stuff. we just can't.
Hahaha, biologists trumping physicists when they clash ALL the time cool

The argument from consciousness actually relies on sentience. not consciousness. it is not enough to be conscious. to be aware of stuff, but to assign values to those things. sentience is what differentiates humans from dogs. both are conscious. both only a human can pause to stare at the beauty and splendor of . . . say, the sunset.
Errr, it's still not established that a dog is conscious. Besides, a dog feels basic emotions like love, joy, anger......... Lust! Who cares about the "beauty of the sunset"wink
the general public ke? don't mind those ones jare. they have no idea of what is going on in the scientific world all they know is to buy what we produce.
True! Take a test and ask friends who are not scientifically inclined about this..... Now hear their responses
The dualistic objection . . . is sort of a dangerous one. because it prevents research. how will you want to research the human brain if you already have it at the back of your mind that there are some metaphysical things that govern the workings of it which you will never observe?
ptolemy, designed the geocentric universe. he didn't understand the universe wasn't "centric" at all and that the solar system was heliocentric. hence he decided that there was something supernatural to the movement of planets. here, he resorted to dualism.

and then newton came along. using calculus, he calculated all the movements of the planets. and ptolemy was proven to be wrong. in fact, the movement of the planets was an entirely physical process. but then, newton couldn't find out the stability of the solar system because the complex gravitational interaction was too complicated for his primitive calculus to successfully handle. guess what? he also concluded that there had to be something supernatural about the solar system. especially concerning it's stability. an other resort to dualism.

and then Laplace arrived on the Scene and solved the problem. In today's world, a normal person will laugh at you if you even dare to suggest that the workings of the solar system has to be a supernatural one.

so perhaps the brain is just like that. something so complicated that we just don't understand it yet.
and perhaps one day, we will. and you might be shocked to find out that it's an entirely physical system.
I beg to differ. Come on, even you treat robots like children, or maybe imbeciles. Really think they can measure up. Besides, what about the unconscious
Now, if I could ask a conscious machine a question, it would be, What do you think about fried chicken? angry

cc sirwere
gringringrin. Really love chicken huh Mine will be, can you dance

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