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What Is The Supernatural? - Religion - Nairaland

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What Is The Supernatural? by huxley2(m): 11:00am On Jun 07, 2009
Those who believe a supernatural realm exists have the following question to address;

1) How do we come to KNOW [/b]about it?

2) Does the supernatural interact with the natural? Does the supernatural [b]influence
, control [/b]and [b]modify [/b]the natural? If it does, by what mechanism?

3) Can the natural, in turn [b]control
, influence [/b]and [b]modify [/b]the supernatural realm?

4) How does one distinguish the [b]supernatural
from the not-understood-yet-but-natural?

Can anyone provide a coherent definition of the supernatural and explain why such a realm should exist?
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by jagunlabi(m): 11:09am On Jun 07, 2009
There is no such thing as the supernatural.There is what is natural,and what is sub or undernatural.We live within the subnatural.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by Tudor3(m): 11:11am On Jun 07, 2009
I'm interested in this topic too.
How does one know the supernatural?
Who hasg the right to declare an occurence supernatural?
That we don't understand a phenomena doesn't make it supernatural. We need to completely understand the 'natural' before we can proclaim something 'supernatural' and i don't think we're there yet.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 5:49pm On Jun 07, 2009
This is a very excellent line of enquiry. What is the Supernatural? intimately bound to this is obviously the question what is the natural. Without a clear definition of what natural is how can we say what is super-natural, super meaning 'over' or above. To know what is above the natural it is necessary to first know what the natural is.

Note, even if we do not know every natural phenomenon that exists we can still say what features it will have to have in order to be considered a natural event.

To answer you questions for the moment I would say

1) As we know natural events (whatever those are) via our faculties of perception tuned to the natural, if there is a supernatural world then we must have faculties capable of perceiving it.

2) That depends entirely on what you consider to be natural and what you would consider to be supernatural.

3) Again would depend on what definitions you were using for these terms.

4) When you have a proper definition of the natural and you witness an event that is not yet understood yet exhibits the features associated with natural phenomena then you can say that it is a natural event. If it has features associated with supernatural events then it is supernatural.

One definition of Naturalism says that every event has a cause that is based on the material world. All causal agents are material. But that has difficulties. What is Matter? etc.

Perhaps if you gave us a definition of Nature and Natural cause then implicit in that definition will be the definition of Supernaturalism.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 5:52pm On Jun 07, 2009
This is intimately tied to the subject of Causality. What is a causal relationship? Is there a difference between natural causes and supernatural causes?
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by huxley2(m): 6:40pm On Jun 07, 2009
Pastor AIO:

This is a very excellent line of enquiry. What is the Supernatural? intimately bound to this is obviously the question what is the natural. Without a clear definition of what natural is how can we say what is super-natural, super meaning 'over' or above. To know what is above the natural it is necessary to first know what the natural is.

Note, even if we do not know every natural phenomenon that exists we can still say what features it will have to have in order to be considered a natural event.

To answer you questions for the moment I would say

1) As we know natural events (whatever those are) via our faculties of perception tuned to the natural, if there is a supernatural world then we must have faculties capable of perceiving it.

2) That depends entirely on what you consider to be natural and what you would consider to be supernatural.

3) Again would depend on what definitions you were using for these terms.

4) When you have a proper definition of the natural and you witness an event that is not yet understood yet exhibits the features associated with natural phenomena then you can say that it is a natural event. If it has features associated with supernatural events then it is supernatural.

One definition of Naturalism says that every event has a cause that is based on the material world. All causal agents are material. But that has difficulties. What is Matter? etc.

Perhaps if you gave us a definition of Nature and Natural cause then implicit in that definition will be the definition of Supernaturalism.

Some good points. Let me attempt a definition for NATURE. In fact, it is very difficult to define nature properly without incurring some form of circularity because we have to use elements of nature to define nature. Nevertheless, I shall give a commonsense definition:



Nature is the spaciotemporal entity that can be percieved with the senses (including instrumented senses). In other words, nature is what we can see, touch, smell, hear or taste. Or percieve with our advance instruments. Nature is composed of matter, time, energy and experience (or consciousness).


Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 8:27pm On Jun 07, 2009
huxley2:

Some good points. Let me attempt a definition for NATURE. In fact, it is very difficult to define nature properly without incurring some form of circularity because we have to use elements of nature to define nature. Nevertheless, I shall give a commonsense definition:



Nature is the spaciotemporal entity that can be percieved with the senses (including instrumented senses). In other words, nature is what we can see, touch, smell, hear or taste. Or percieve with our advance instruments. Nature is composed of matter, time, energy and experience (or consciousness).




What are the traits that matter, time, energy and experience/consciousness share that makes them Natural. Is it that you can see, touch, smell, hear and taste them. Can you perceive consciousness with senses or advance instruments?


Imagine that human senses evolved in a different way. Say, in the same way a bat's evolved. Would colour exist as a part of our natural world? If our senses were like bat's then
we wouldn't see anything but we would be living in a totally different world composed of high frequency sounds that paint a picture of how the world is shaped. We would be able to maneuver around these high frequency sounds and hunt and sustain ourselves. But it would be a totally different world. If this were the case would colour be a natural phenomenon according the definition that what is natural is only what can be perceived by the senses.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 11:12am On Jun 09, 2009
huxley2:

Some good points. Let me attempt a definition for NATURE. In fact, it is very difficult to define nature properly without incurring some form of circularity because we have to use elements of nature to define nature. Nevertheless, I shall give a commonsense definition:



Nature is the spaciotemporal entity that can be percieved with the senses (including instrumented senses). In other words, nature is what we can see, touch, smell, hear or taste. Or percieve with our advance instruments. Nature is composed of matter, time, energy and experience (or consciousness).






What you're trying to do is define Nature as everything that exists. You might as well just come out and say it: Nature is everything that exists so by definition there is not Supernatural. When you say Nature is composed of Experience. Well absolutely everything we are aware of is an experience. How do we experience supernatural?

You need a more rigorous definition of your terms. Something that was actually descriptive would help.

Secondly, are you talking about stuff or are you talking about the Processes that Stuff undergoes. Saying that Nature is composed of matter blah and blah suggest that Nature is a body not the processes that a body undergoes.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by huxley2(m): 12:01pm On Jun 09, 2009
Pastor AIO:

What you're trying to do is define Nature as everything that exists. You might as well just come out and say it: Nature is everything that exists so by definition there is not Supernatural. When you say Nature is composed of Experience. Well absolutely everything we are aware of is an experience. How do we experience supernatural?

You need a more rigorous definition of your terms. Something that was actually descriptive would help.

Secondly, are you talking about stuff or are you talking about the Processes that Stuff undergoes. Saying that Nature is composed of matter blah and blah suggest that Nature is a body not the processes that a body undergoes.


Good points, Pastor. There was an omission on my defintion of nature. I should have added "events" or processes, as some people prefer the term. Process or events are the "stuff" encapsulating the interaction of one stuff with another, usually in a causal link.

Yes, my definition is basically a defintion that leaves no room for the supernatural, ie, all of existence is nature.

At least, I have tried with my defintion. What is yours? How do you define natural and supernatural?
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 12:10pm On Jun 09, 2009
huxley2:

At least, I have tried with my defintion. What is yours? How do you define natural and supernatural?

I do not really make a distinction between natural and supernatural. What is just is, as far as I'm concerned.

I however recognise that we have different ways of organising our experience of existence. And one of those ways is to organise experience as events connected in a spacio-temporal network. The functioning within that spacio-temporal backdrop is what some would call Nature.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by huxley2(m): 12:29pm On Jun 09, 2009
Pastor AIO:

I do not really make a distinction between natural and supernatural. What is just is, as far as I'm concerned.

I however recognise that we have different ways of organising our experience of existence. And one of those ways is to organise experience as events connected in a spacio-temporal network. The functioning within that spacio-temporal backdrop is what some would call Nature.

Thank you and welcome to the club. You are an existentialist, OR better still a naturalist.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 12:50pm On Jun 09, 2009
huxley2:

Thank you and welcome to the club. You are an existentialist, OR better still a naturalist.

I'm sure you know why I find your familiarity with the term existentialist so mind boggling. That said, I don't believe I'm an existentialist or even a naturalist.

And Frankly, I wouldn't dream of joining a club that would have me.

Like a true african I only want what is out of reach.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 11:46am On Jun 10, 2009
The brain's involved in the 'supernatural', of course. It might be 'extrasensory', but it still has to be processed by the biological being undergoing the experience. I still don't get how we 'evolved' a brain we use only 10% of. Why didn't the human species evolve just the percentage it uses? If it isn't using a whopping 90% why did that part 'evolve' into being along with the brain parts we do use?

There isn't really a supernatural; there are merely poorly understood relationships. There are parts of the brain somehow equipped to interact with and deal with the 'spiritual' and 'otherworldly'. Something the brain parts controlling eyesight, hearing, taste, smell etc can't really do, because it's not its function. If we were functioning at 100% brain capacity, the 'supernatural' would be completely natural, the senses that interact with it fully understood.

But just because we don't understand how parts of the brain work doesn't mean those brain parts aren't working, can't be stimulated by drugs or 'something else', or that we aren't using them, unaware. I doubt the part of the brain that's stimulated when a New Age adept like Shirley Maclaine separates her spirit from her body is the part that is stimulated when she's looking at something or drinking beer. It's not the part that is stimulated when a Christian is communicating with God and receiving visual information in return. So complaing you can't discern the spiritual empirically is as absurd as complaing you can't see with your tongue. Different functions, different stimulus.

While reading accounts of thousands of people worldwide who have experienced clinical death, it's impossible to not notice their memories of this world are fully iintact when they're in the other world. One has to wonder: since they have left their physical bodies behind, including the brain, what's the repository for their knowledge and memories? Does the spirit have a brain that is fused with our biological brains? I have read accounts of people who described how 'they' stood to one side in hospital emergency rooms, unseen, and watched doctors battle to save their lives. They all reported a complete lack of concern for the body or world they had left behind, and no desire to return to it. We know this only in the cases where the doctors actually succeed in restoring life, of course.

Nothing 'supernatural' about the spiritual. It's just poorly understood.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by pilgrim1(f): 12:32pm On Jun 10, 2009
This is my first on this thread, even though I was merely previously observing. Perhaps the terms we try to explicate around 'supernatural' may at best be understood contextually before drawing any hard conclusions. Let me borrow from Mad_Max's perpsective to highlight this:

Mad_Max:

There isn't really a supernatural; there are merely poorly understood relationships.

>snip<

But just because we don't understand how parts of the brain work doesn't mean those brain parts aren't working, can't be stimulated by drugs or 'something else', or that we aren't using them, unaware . . . . [   ]

>snip<

Nothing 'supernatural' about the spiritual. It's just poorly understood.

That's just one view; but methinks the 'supernatural' is not all about what is 'spiritual' or about relationships narrowed down to brain activity and power. No, I'm not saying that Mad_Max had narrowed it down to that extreme; rather, while appreciate that perspective as an example for seeking to understand what's 'supernatural', there are other aspects that may have to be considered in broad terms as to accomodate the basis for our discussions. Among other things, here's a scribble (unarranged) which I sourced from some various sources - especially what 'naturalists' tend to deem as tending to 'supernatural':

[list]
1. NATURAL

For many, the term 'natural' describes that which may be considered both in substance and process as occuring within known set laws of the physical world.
[/list]

[list]
2. SUPERNATURAL

For others, the term 'supernatural' describes what occurs outside the norms of what is considered a 'natural' process. This would include such suggested definitions as -

      ● forces and events and beings collectively

      ● not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws

      ● do not have a natural or scientific explanation

      ● not conforming to known natural forces or laws

      ● beyond what is natural or normal

      ● exceeding or departing from the normal course of nature

      ● impossible to explain by natural causes

      ● of, coming from, or relating to forces or beings that exist outside the natural world

      ●  phenomena that may be associated with -

               preternatural

               unnatural

               extramundane

               extrasensory

               metaphysical

               miraculous

               superhuman

               superphysical

               supersensible

               transcendental

               unearthly

               magical

               mystical

               of or pertaining to God

[/list]

Please observe: these are scribbles taken down from various quarters when sourcing atheists' views on what they would consider 'supernatural' - and I agree with some of them. It does not mean that this lists should serve as the all-embracing meanings that explicate both terms 'natural' and 'supernatural'. I only posted it to see if it could help in fostering and adding to what have already been shared in this thread.

Cheers. smiley
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 7:02pm On Jun 11, 2009
Brain power? Not where I was going at all. But I find, when posting on an atheist's thread, it's better to keep things simple. But there appears to be a relationship between the spiritual and the brain. I may be wrong but I think the spiritual's what the poster's talking about and not other 'unknown, 'unnatural' phenomena like, say, UFOs. If we're using just 10% of our brains one wonders what people would be capable of with 50%. All known physical laws are based on the interaction of that 10% with the world. Perhaps 50% would enable man to, oh,I don't know, levitate, walk through walls, walk on water? That would change those laws, wouldn't it? It would turn every single thing science knew upsidedown. What if man were functioning at 100% brain capacity? What would we be then? I'm almost certain the unseen spiritual reality superimposed on this world would be plain to see, since the facility to interact with it and process it is in the brain as well as the spirit. One has to wonder why we're using just 10%, what separated us from the remaining whopping 90%. One has to wonder what God originally created when he made man, what He intended man to be. If we have been reduced to a 10th of what we originally were, perhaps everything in our orbit was also reduced to scale.

There's a relationship between our will and our brain and spirits and unseen events. Afterall, when I have the desire to drink a glass of milk, it's an abstract thing, a thought, and yet my brain processes that abstracism, translates it into action and my physical body gets up and pours itself a glass of milk. When we pray, talk, bless, curse, think, fervently desire, things happen we can't see. I'm merely talking about the mechanical processes of things 'unseen' and spiritual, not brain power. That is so New Age; they and their 'man is a god' doctrines.

But knowing this poster's propensity to ridicule all things 'God' I wonder what this thread is about exactly. He's a fanatical atheist. And atheism is a religion; the sum of its religious credo is: Empirically speaking, there is no God. He's humanity's saddest invention, our very own mechanical baby pacifier.

The poster's religious zeal is extraordinary. He engages in online crusade after crusade, and displays a typical zealot's intolerance for other religions. He makes no secret of the fact that he's here to win converts, to bring lost, deluded souls to the light. He even has a convert; someone posted he saw this 'light' and lost his faith. His threads outnumber any Christian's on this board by what, 10 to 1?

And his atheism is based on what? Science and borrowed attitudes from genuine atheists. Steven Pinker is a painfully brilliant man, a scientist I deeply respect. A sincere atheist. But even he acknowledges there are mysteries and things for which science has no explanations. The scientific community has believers and non-believers alike, like any other community.And a scientific truth is 'right' or 'true' only for a single shining instant, and then another scientific truth takes its place. The best, the most gifted scientists know everything bears a question mark, that there are no absolute truths in science. And this is the standard by which God is judged?

Feel free to be an atheist, but God exists independent of your approval or belief. He isn't waiting for your say-so to suddenly spring to life. Yes, Christianty has its problems. There's lies, dogma, legalism, ignorance, self-deceit, fraud, deception and more. Whatever man may have made of it, it has as its foundation Jesus Christ, who built an agonising bridge to God with his priceless blood. You come to the table with only yourself, damaged goods, and you get everything. I don't mean money or cars or castles; those things have their place, but in real terms they're utterly worthless. What is there to ask, what is there to ponder, but to take what has been freely given? I pray that God finds you. When he does, you will count every single year of your life you did without Him as loss.

In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with cautiously entertaining the possibility, however slim, that perhaps half the world isn't deluded. That perhaps, in spite of everything, the supernatural and the spiritual exists, and God reigns utterly supreme therein.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by pilgrim1(f): 9:26pm On Jun 11, 2009
Hi again Mad_max,

Mad_Max:

Brain power? Not where I was going at all.

My apologies - I already noted that I may be wrong:
[list]
pilgrim.1:

. . . methinks the 'supernatural' is not all about what is 'spiritual' or about relationships narrowed down to brain activity and power. No, I'm not saying that Mad_Max had narrowed it down to that extreme;
[/list]
Perhaps I noted the connection between the brain and such relationships merely from your emphasis thereto. However, let's see some other matters that we may need to touch upon:

Mad_Max:

But I find, when posting on an atheist's thread, it's better to keep things simple. But there appears to be a relationship between the spiritual and the brain.

Indeed, there's always a need to keep things simple enough while avoidng the error of over-simplifying issues. There is indeed a relationship between the spiritual and the brain - and perhaps one reason while some atheists may assume that the 'supernatural' is a natural phenomena that is not yet understood within naturalistic terms. It is this tendency that we should watch out for, and try to always maintain a balance so that undue polarisations do not obscure the gist of the discussions.

Mad_Max:

I may be wrong but I think the spiritual's what the poster's talking about and not other 'unknown, 'unnatural' phenomena like, say, UFOs.

Agreed. wink

Mad_Max:

If we're using just 10% of our brains one wonders what people would be capable of with 50%. All known physical laws are based on the interaction of that 10% with the world. Perhaps 50% would enable man to, oh,I don't know, levitate, walk through walls, walk on water? That would change those laws, wouldn't it? It would turn every single thing science knew upsidedown. What if man were functioning at 100% brain capacity? What would we be then? I'm almost certain the unseen spiritual reality superimposed on this world would be plain to see, since the facility to interact with it and process it is in the brain as well as the spirit. One has to wonder why we're using just 10%, what separated us from the remaining whopping 90%. One has to wonder what God originally created when he made man, what He intended man to be. If we have been reduced to a 10th of what we originally were, perhaps everything in our orbit was also reduced to scale.

For the sake of analogy, we might assume that we use just 10% of our brains - as long as the essential message of what we're saying is conveyed. However, we might sometime along the line need to correct this idea - and here are just two sources among thousands that do not applaud the '10%-use-of-the-brain' idea:

[list]


Do People Only Use 10 Percent Of Their Brains?

. . .
Though an alluring idea, the "10 percent myth" is so wrong it is almost laughable, says neurologist Barry Gordon at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine in Baltimore. Although there's no definitive culprit to pin the blame on for starting this legend, the notion has been linked to the American psychologist and author William James, who argued in The Energies of Men that "We are making use of only a small part of our possible mental and physical resources." It's also been associated with to Albert Einstein, who supposedly used it to explain his cosmic towering intellect.
"It turns out though, that we use virtually every part of the brain, and that [most of] the brain is active almost all the time," Gordon adds. "Let's put it this way: the brain represents three percent of the body's weight and uses 20 percent of the body's energy."
Although it's true that at any given moment all of the brain's regions are not concurrently firing, brain researchers using imaging technology have shown that, like the body's muscles, most are continually active over a 24-hour period. "Evidence would show over a day you use 100 percent of the brain," says John Henley, a neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. Even in sleep, areas such as the frontal cortex, which controls things like higher level thinking and self-awareness, or the somatosensory areas, which help people sense their surroundings, are active, Henley explains.
[/list]
source: Scientific American, February 7, 2008

[list]


The Ten-Percent Myth

Claim: We use only ten percent of our brains.

Status: False.

. . .

1) Brain imaging research techniques such as PET scans (positron emissions tomography) and fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) clearly show that the vast majority of the brain does not lie fallow. . .

[/list]
source: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp

Anyhow, this does not mean that you haven't communicated - actually, you have. There's this tendency for many people to reduce all relationships to a unit and see nothing beyond that reductionism. The basic question is: can all reality of all possible worlds be contained within that reductionism?

Mad_Max:

But knowing this poster's propensity to ridicule all things 'God' I wonder what this thread is about exactly. He's a fanatical atheist. And atheism is a religion; the sum of its religious credo is: Empirically speaking, there is no God. He's humanity's saddest invention, our very own mechanical baby pacifier.

Lol, I need some time to disgest those lines. However, this thread emerged from discussions on another thread, and I frankly think it is germane to our collective understanding about spiritual things as well. However, we should bear in mind that not all atheists hold atheism as a religion - and the few I've actually spoken to are far more rational in dialogues that the many we commonly encounter. I trust you'll come across some of these folks sooner than later - I bet you, they're quite informed and known what they're talking about when discussing their own type of atheism. Just my observation.

Mad_Max:

And his atheism is based on what? Science and borrowed attitudes from genuine atheists. Steven Pinker is a painfully brilliant man, a scientist I deeply respect. A sincere atheist. But even he acknowledges there are mysteries and things for which science has no explanations. The scientific community has believers and non-believers alike, like any other community.And a scientific truth is 'right' or 'true' only for a single shining instant, and then another scientific truth takes its place. The best, the most gifted scientists know everything bears a question mark, that there are no absolute truths in science. And this is the standard by which God is judged?

I share your concerns, and must say you're quite articulate.

Mad_Max:

Feel free to be an atheist, but God exists independent of your approval or belief. He isn't waiting for your say-so to suddenly spring to life. Yes, Christianty has its problems. There's lies, dogma, legalism, ignorance, self-deceit, fraud, deception and more. Whatever man may have made of it, it has as its foundation Jesus Christ, who built an agonising bridge to God with his priceless blood. You come to the table with only yourself, damaged goods, and you get everything. I don't mean money or cars or castles; those things have their place, but in real terms they're utterly worthless. What is there to ask, what is there to ponder, but to take what has been freely given? I pray that God finds you. When he does, you will count every single year of your life you did without Him as loss.

In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with cautiously entertaining the possibility, however slim, that perhaps half the world isn't deluded. That perhaps, in spite of everything, the supernatural and the spiritual exists, and God reigns utterly supreme therein.

Wow! I very much like your closing remarks - could I borrow to keep in my diary? Well done. wink
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by toneyb: 11:38pm On Jun 11, 2009
Mad_Max:



Feel free to be an atheist, but God exists independent of your approval or belief. He isn't waiting for your say-so to suddenly spring to life. Yes, Christianty has its problems. There's lies, dogma, legalism, ignorance, self-deceit, fraud, deception and more. Whatever man may have made of it, it has as its foundation Jesus Christ, who built an agonising bridge to God with his priceless blood. You come to the table with only yourself, damaged goods, and you get everything. I don't mean money or cars or castles; those things have their place, but in real terms they're utterly worthless. What is there to ask, what is there to ponder, but to take what has been freely given? I pray that God finds you. When he does, you will count every single year of your life you did without Him as loss.

What evidence do we have for any of these particular propositions?
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by pilgrim1(f): 7:35am On Jun 12, 2009
toneyb:

What evidence do we have for any of these particular propositions?

What evidence do you have that God does not exist independent of your atheistic approval or belief?
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 11:21am On Jun 15, 2009
Mechanical baby pacifier? Lol. I meant to say metaphysical baby pacifier.

We're using a 100% of our brain? Really? It isn't just Barry Gordon's opinion? Thank you for that.
What do you think about UFOs though? Maybe I'm taking this in another direction, but what are they? And why, lol, are they a uniquely European and American phenomenon? You'd think they'd show up everywhere, instead of places where belief in them is prevalent.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 12:36pm On Jun 15, 2009
Mad_Max:

Mechanical baby pacifier? Lol. I meant to say metaphysical baby pacifier.

We're using a 100% of our brain? Really? It isn't just Barry Gordon's opinion? Thank you for that.
What do you think about UFOs though? Maybe I'm taking this in another direction, but what are they? And why, lol, are they a uniquely European and American phenomenon? You'd think they'd show up everywhere, instead of places where belief in them is prevalent.

maybe they do but they are called something different or they are understood differently.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 12:58pm On Jun 15, 2009
It's possible. But if they were describing flying saucers and alien abduction, shouldn't others soon 'get' what they were talking about? Shouldn't there be reports from other places, whatever the moniker employed? "Flying saucer spotted in Burma", "African village residents report flashing lights in the sky" "Oba in AIO's village abducted by aliens". But I haven't heard of locals in other places describing UFOs. Besides, what are they?
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 1:02pm On Jun 15, 2009
But are ufo necessarily space craft with aliens abducting people. I thought they are just phenomena in the sky that are unexplained.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 1:18pm On Jun 15, 2009
They are. Some have been explained, some are famous hoaxes, but some are genuine,unexplainable mysteries. And you can't dissociate UFOs from aliens. 80% of Americans believe there are aliens, and that there's some sort of Govt cover-up or something.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 1:22pm On Jun 15, 2009
I'm more inclined to believe that there are other intelligent species on earth than in extraterrestrial aliens.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 1:34pm On Jun 15, 2009
I don't mean the humanoid or reptilian 'aliens' of popular culture. I mean intelligent life in places other than earth, in whatever form.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by pilgrim1(f): 1:59pm On Jun 15, 2009
Mad_Max:

We're using a 100% of our brain? Really? It isn't just Barry Gordon's opinion? Thank you for that.
What do you think about UFOs though? Maybe I'm taking this in another direction, but what are they? And why, lol, are they a uniquely European and American phenomenon? You'd think they'd show up everywhere, instead of places where belief in them is prevalent.

The '10%-only-use-of-the-brain' is believed to be erroneous, and that's not just 'Barry Gordon's opinion'. That aside, it does not negatively affect your previous discussion in any way.

The UFOs are just that - 'unidentified', they 'fly', and they are 'objects'.
There are so many of these phenomena around the world, and studies about them are inconclusive other than that they actually exist. Their nature or manifestations are diverse, and at present it does not appear that anyone knows for sure what they actually are - as regards their origins, habitats, interractions with other phenomena in the world, and why they tend to manifest in the way they do.

Reports about UFO are surprisingly from around the world - not just from Europe and America. In fact, it does not actually follow that UFOs happen to be identified peculiarly with places where 'belief in them' is prevalent. Some sources have it that some of these phenomena are reproted in Asia, as far as China and Japan; as well Australia -

      ● UFOs exist, says Japan official [click here - BBC]

      ● China's X-Files bulging with UFO sightings [click here - The Independent]

      ● UFO sightings in Australia [see here - Wikipedia]

      ● Latest UFO Report From India
         [from Evening Telegraph and Metacalf]

Of course, there are speculations surrounding these news reports and sightings, and the possibility of other mistaken objects (such as birds, dirt, etc) are not ruled out.

Mad_Max:

It's possible. But if they were describing flying saucers and alien abduction, shouldn't others soon 'get' what they were talking about? Shouldn't there be reports from other places, whatever the moniker employed? "Flying saucer spotted in Burma", "African village residents report flashing lights in the sky" "Oba in AIO's village abducted by aliens". But I haven't heard of locals in other places describing UFOs. Besides, what are they?

There are locals in many other places reporting such phenomena as 'UFOs', although not all such reports speak of 'alien abduction'. Some are merely sightings, nothing more; others are more than sightings, but not abductions. However, many people believe that one possible reason it seems people do not take these reports seriously is because of government propaganda around the world to deliberately hide these reports and class them as 'X-files'. With increasing pressure from locals reporting such occurences with evidences of pictures, footages, and other ancilary pointers, some governments have been forced to disclose a bit of these information to the public of their citizenry. Examples would include the case of the British MOD (Ministry of Defence) and the NASA reports.

    ●  New UFO secrets are revealed in MoD files  [Guardian.co.uk]

    ●  MoD to open British UFO X-files  [Telegraph.co.uk]

    ●  NASA's Edgar Dean Mitchell on UFOs [Wikipedia]

You might also be interested in seeing this brief 'conference' report about -

    ●  57 varieties of alien beings catalogued by 1989 [Revver.com]

Please note: the examples above do not mean therefore that conclusive statements are implied - directly or indirectly.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by PastorAIO: 2:10pm On Jun 15, 2009
I meant to say that there are Other intelligent species on earth. They don't necessarily have to be extra terrestrial.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by MadMax1(f): 2:58pm On Jun 15, 2009
Japan, China, Australia, India. Why no reports of UFO sightings in Africa? One can't argue backwoods technology; that they have been observed but merely haven't been communicated to the world. Africa may not patent much,technologically, but we do import. And we do have a vibrant media. Why aren't sightings reported in Africa and other places veddy veddy third world,I wonder? People have eyeballs there too.

Interesting articles and reports. I was asking if you think there's life elsewhere in the universe, and why you think so. If you do, do you find the thought incompatible with Christian doctrine, which is silent on the subject? The Bible appears to mention only that which has direct commerce with Israel or Israelites. It doesn't say other sentient beings weren't created by God.

I've been reading a little on the subject, from Carl Sagan's optimistic enthusiasm for SETI to the FERMI paradox, as well as a host of reasons why intelligent life may exist elsewhere but remain undetectable by us: we may be too far apart in space and time,we haven't been searching long enough to find anything;  space probes and radio transmissions were only invented in the 20th century, an impossibly insignificant amount of time on a cosmological scale, they may not want to be detected; time after time when two civilizations meet, problems ensue as one seeks to dominate the other, they may not be a technologically-advanced civilization; they may be far too alien for us to interact with or understand in any way and vice versa, etc.

Some people think they're 'already among us', but do not want to be detected. Precious little evidence for that
     


Pastor AIO:

I meant to say that there are Other intelligent species on earth. They don't necessarily have to be extra terrestrial.


I don't get your meaning. 
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by pilgrim1(f): 5:03pm On Jun 15, 2009
@Mad_Max,

Mad_Max:

Japan, China, Australia, India. Why no reports of UFO sightings in Africa? One can't argue backwoods technology; that they have been observed but merely haven't been communicated to the world. Africa may not patent much,technologically, but we do import. And we do have a vibrant media. Why aren't sightings reported in Africa and other places veddy veddy third world,I wonder? People have eyeballs there too.

Again, please see: UFO Sightings in Africa [UFO Evidence].

The point is not so much whether or not it should happen in a particular place or regoin for it to be taken seriously. It is just as well that some may question the validity of the "Red Rain" in Kerala - because it happened only in Kerala (India) and not in anywhere else. The thing is that people cannot just agree around the world to make up an idea about UFOs and keep it to those particular places. To wonder why they are not sighted in certain other places is perhaps not having any effect on the reality of UFOs themselves.

Mad_Max:

Interesting articles and reports. I was asking if you think there's life elsewhere in the universe, and why you think so. If you do, do you find the thought incompatible with Christian doctrine, which is silent on the subject? The Bible appears to mention only that which has direct commerce with Israel or Israelites. It doesn't say other sentient beings weren't created by God.

Well, I have reasons to believe in the possibility that there's 'life' elsewhere in the universe - and no, I don't find it incompatible with Christian doctrine. Again, it all depends on what one might mean by "life" elsewhere in the universe. However, the Bible does not dwell much on 'life' outside the earth - but again, it does not categorically deny the possibility that such a phenomenon is well-known within the matrix of Biblical revelation. Although many Christians may shy clear of taking on this subject, but I've always thought a bit carefully on what might be meant by the "host of heaven" (cf. 2 Kings 23:5).

      (A)
      '. . . them also that burned incense unto Baal,
       to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets,
       and to all the host of heaven.' [1 Kings 23:5]

      (B)
      There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
      but the glory of the celestial is one,
      and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [1 Cor. 15: 40]

The one thing, perhaps, is that the Bible does not go into detail about the specific identities of these "hosts of heaven" (used in various contexts, but different from planetary bodies) or those described as "celestial bodies". Bottomline is that there's good reason for me to believe in the possibility of "life" elsewhere in the universe.

Mad_Max:

I've been reading a little on the subject, from Carl Sagan's optimistic enthusiasm for SETI to the FERMI paradox, as well as a host of reasons why intelligent life may exist elsewhere but remain undetectable by us: we may be too far apart in space and time,we haven't been searching long enough to find anything; space probes and radio transmissions were only invented in the 20th century, an impossibly insignificant amount of time on a cosmological scale, they may not want to be detected; time after time when two civilizations meet, problems ensue as one seeks to dominate the other, they may not be a technologically-advanced civilization; they may be far too alien for us to interact with or understand in any way and vice versa, etc.

Some people think they're 'already among us', but do not want to be detected. Precious little evidence for that.

Well, in my view, knowledge about such phenomena as UFOs and 'intelligent life' elsewhere did not wait for 20th century technology and inventions. From what have been reported, some of these phenomena seem to have manifested independent of any radio transmissions or other form of detecting technology.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by dalaman: 5:18pm On Jun 15, 2009
The supernatural has no clear or unequivocal definition IMO.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by jagunlabi(m): 5:27pm On Jun 15, 2009
Let me try to define it this way.
The supernatural is a phenomenon that we humans have no understanding of at the moment.But the minute we have a good understanding of such a phenomenon or event,it becomes either science or technology.
And since our understanding of the world around us is getting broader and broader by the hour,it is only a matter of time before what used to be a supernatural event becomes a mere event with a scientific explanation.
Re: What Is The Supernatural? by toneyb: 5:29pm On Jun 15, 2009
jagunlabi:

Let me try to define it this way.
The supernatural is a phenomenon that we humans have no understanding of at the moment.But the minute we have a good understanding of such a phenomenon or event,it becomes either science or technology.
And since our understanding of the world around us is getting broader and broader by the hour,it is only a matter of time before what used to be a supernatural event becomes a mere event with a scientific explanation.

Very well said. With the avalanche of science and technology that is springing up in this present age most of what we consider to be the supernatural will be called science very soon.

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