johnydon22:

It is ok to note that SIN in a religious sense has no weight on human morality..

Human morality as a construct of human society entails: An action that decreases individual and social human suffering and betters societal well-being, survival, justice, equality, freedom..

vooks:

'....justice,equality,freedom.....'
Why do you pursue these? Who settled on what human morality entails?

kiddie:
I've got this burden I would like to share johnydon do you believe in voodoo

frank317:


Humans settle on what human morality entails.

You can't make up a God because you believe you were designed and charge this God idea with the duty of settling what human morality entails.

vooks:
'....justice,equality,freedom.....' Why do you pursue these? Who settled on what human morality entails?

frank317:


Then next thing, people like Ebuka, winner and vooks will come and shamelessly defend the nonsense story. No b small thing.

ValentineMary:
Johnny well said. Leave people like vooks to keep making noise with their void logic

vooks:




Mor0ns can't take a dump without stalking me. If you need my wisdom just say so

Shollyps:
sometimes I wonder how the f**k did we believe that shitt. . especially the original sin part

who the hell is Adam n Eve?

johnydon22:

Human morality as a construct of human society entails: An action that decreases individual and social human suffering and betters societal well-being, survival, justice, equality, freedom..
Going by this societal definition of human morality one cannot fail to notice that these actions are necessary for a human society to ensure continuation and a healthy social interactions because as social beings living together in a society we must indulge in mutual actions necessary for our own betterment and continuation.
An immoral act as the opposite of morality is An action that INCREASES individual and societal human suffering and is a detriment to societal well being, justice, equality, survival and freedom..

johnydon22:
[b]Many here won't deny having grown up being taught that their very humanity itself is a sin.

That their nature as humans have been contaminated by the action of Adam and Eve in Eden and so their very nature as humans is a sin and broken, lost and weak and therefore needs to be saved..

This basic Christian doctrine has created an imaginary problem, have convinced them of bearing the guilt of an imaginary crime by two fictitious people they know nothing about and so must require an imaginary act of salvation in order to make it to an imaginary paradise..

We have been taught that God is the father at the same time taught to fear, cower in awe in the face of this Father figure.

"Father, i am not worthy to be your son, i am broken and weak and is short of your glory but father forgive me and accept me because i have been a sinner since i was born. please father let your will be done in my life, take full possession of me and do with my life what ever you will even though am not worthy"

This is a prayer line used to address a father figure, to this i will call a pitiable show of self degrading other than humility..

And again am sure none of us here will ever have our children talk to us in that format, anyone who expects such mode of address from his Children has a chronic self righteousness, abject narcissism, huge egoism and outright disturbing figure..

People have been convinced that they are a sinner from birth and therefore are not worthy...?

To this i call a complete arrant nonsense...

It is amazing how people cannot find the disturbing idea of a God who bears a grudge for such a long time that it blames every generation for the actions of two people...

The alleged all powerful, all knowing and all present creator of the universe is showing a pitiable insecure childish show of bearing grudges with flimsy humans..

You do not need saving from imaginary angry Gods who is blaming you for the sin of some two naked couple who ate an apple..

You did nothing and you are not guilty of the crime of anybody not even the crimes of your immediate parents.

It is a common thing to have religious people accuse others of being sinners who deserves to be burnt in a fire for their sins.

It is ok to note that SIN in a religious sense has no weight on human morality..

Human morality as a construct of human society entails: An action that decreases individual and social human suffering and betters societal well-being, survival, justice, equality, freedom..

Going by this societal definition of human morality one cannot fail to notice that these actions are necessary for a human society to ensure continuation and a healthy social interactions because as social beings living together in a society we must indulge in mutual actions necessary for our own betterment and continuation.

An immoral act as the opposite of morality is An action that INCREASES individual and societal human suffering and is a detriment to societal well being, justice, equality, survival and freedom..

Going by this definition one cannot miss to discern that Armed Robbery is a societal vice because it increases the suffering of the victim.

Government officials looting a country is a societal vice because it increases the societal suffering of the community.

Boko haram or any group wreaking havoc on a community is a societal vice because it is a detriment to societal well being and increases individual and societal suffering..


But the religious idea of sin are simply actions that goes against the stipulated ethics or doctrines of the said religion or the so called "will of God" that may or may not be in relation to a societal moral action.

E.g: In the catholic Church, Missing Mass on sunday is a sin against God..
In islam eating pork is a sin
And in a wide margin being Human itself is a sin in fundamental Christian doctrine of original sin.
Not believing in God is also a sin

I don't understand how muhammed having sex with a 9 year old Aisha is not a bad thing in Islam or beheading others in the name of God is not wrong but God frowns at what two grown adults decides to do with themselves or what i eat..

So you see, these ideas of sin has no weight on the moral tilt of an action, it doesn't matter if your actions are of a good tilt or not you are a sinner none- the less.

So do not fret when accused of being a sinner as long as your actions are of no detrimental effect to others or the society...

This is the exact question i asked a preacher girl who accused me of being a sinner when she learnt i don't believe the God she believes..

"Am i a sinner because i don't live a moral and ethical life or because i don't believe the God you believe ?"

My actions are for humans not deity and so the effect of my actions on fellow humans and the society is all that matters to me not whether a deity likes it or not..

when we realize that an action is neither good or bad just because a religion says so either with the charge of "Thus says the lord" or not, we will learn to employ our reason and independent thinking in determining our actions towards each other..

-We are neither fallen or weak

-Our humanity is not a crime or sin

-we are not to be blamed for the actions of some fictitious couple who ate an apple.

-We have no need to be saved from angry deities who won't mind their business, we are the only ones who can offer ourselves and our children salvation by choosing to better the planet we live in.

-And most importantly we do not need forgiveness from angry Gods, we only need forgiveness from each other..

Live your life for you and your actions in respect to others around you and the society that binds us all and not an obligation to a God or religion or a means to an end to bypass punishment or get a reward..

Nobody is born a sinner or inherited the sin of Adam and eve and it's time people realized that..
[/b]

Maamin:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 [size=16pt]Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.[/size]

@op, how could you sit down and type so much note just to express your disbelieve in God. That is way too much trouble for someone that does not believe in God. Your bitterness toward your creator gives me more reason to believe in him ever more.

You should do too coz sooner or later...!!!

LoJ:

Hello Johnydon22. I usually don't debate with people who already have a fixed idea about something. But in this case, I feel you are a sincere and decent person. I'm not a religious person, and do not advocate for any religion. I know however there is God.

This your definition of morality creates many problems. Who decides what increases or decreases a society's well being?

Is the suppression of people that are (intellectually or physically) weak, people with disabilities/genetic diseases, impotent people, moral or not?

Does it increase or decrease the well being of the community?

Is the private ownership of property moral?

As we all know Capitalists will argue that it increases the well being of the society, while Communists will argue otherwise.

Besides what men view today as an increase may be viewed tomorrow as a decrease.

We are largely ignorant about much of the universe and we do not know the consequences of some of our actions to some other domain of the universe. Which brings me to my last point:
Which community's well being should be the standard? The tribe? Nations? Continents? the Human specie? Animals? Plants?

If an action does some good to the human and is detrimental to another form of life yet to be discovered, is that action moral?

Cheers.

johnydon22:
[b][i]Many here won't deny having grown up being taught that their very humanity itself is a sin.

That their nature as humans have been contaminated by the action of Adam and Eve in Eden and so their very nature as humans is a sin and broken, lost and weak and therefore needs to be saved..

This basic Christian doctrine has created an imaginary problem, have convinced them of bearing the guilt of an imaginary crime by two fictitious people they know nothing about and so must require an imaginary act of salvation in order to make it to an imaginary paradise..

We have been taught that God is the father at the same time taught to fear, cower in awe in the face of this Father figure.

"Father, i am not worthy to be your son, i am broken and weak and is short of your glory but father forgive me and accept me because i have been a sinner since i was born. please father let your will be done in my life, take full possession of me and do with my life what ever you will even though am not worthy"

This is a prayer line used to address a father figure, to this i will call a pitiable show of self degrading other than humility..

And again am sure none of us here will ever have our children talk to us in that format, anyone who expects such mode of address from his Children has a chronic self righteousness, abject narcissism, huge egoism and outright disturbing figure..

People have been convinced that they are a sinner from birth and therefore are not worthy...?

To this i call a complete arrant nonsense...

It is amazing how people cannot find the disturbing idea of a God who bears a grudge for such a long time that it blames every generation for the actions of two people...

The alleged all powerful, all knowing and all present creator of the universe is showing a pitiable insecure childish show of bearing grudges with flimsy humans..

You do not need saving from imaginary angry Gods who is blaming you for the sin of some two naked couple who ate an apple..

You did nothing and you are not guilty of the crime of anybody not even the crimes of your immediate parents.

It is a common thing to have religious people accuse others of being sinners who deserves to be burnt in a fire for their sins.

It is ok to note that SIN in a religious sense has no weight on human morality..

Human morality as a construct of human society entails: An action that decreases individual and social human suffering and betters societal well-being, survival, justice, equality, freedom..

Going by this societal definition of human morality one cannot fail to notice that these actions are necessary for a human society to ensure continuation and a healthy social interactions because as social beings living together in a society we must indulge in mutual actions necessary for our own betterment and continuation.

An immoral act as the opposite of morality is An action that INCREASES individual and societal human suffering and is a detriment to societal well being, justice, equality, survival and freedom..

Going by this definition one cannot miss to discern that Armed Robbery is a societal vice because it increases the suffering of the victim.

Government officials looting a country is a societal vice because it increases the societal suffering of the community.

Boko haram or any group wreaking havoc on a community is a societal vice because it is a detriment to societal well being and increases individual and societal suffering..

But the religious idea of sin are simply actions that goes against the stipulated ethics or doctrines of the said religion or the so called "will of God" that may or may not be in relation to a societal moral action.

E.g: In the catholic Church, Missing Mass on sunday is a sin against God..
In islam eating pork is a sin
And in a wide margin being Human itself is a sin in fundamental Christian doctrine of original sin.
Not believing in God is also a sin

I don't understand how muhammed having sex with a 9 year old Aisha is not a bad thing in Islam or beheading others in the name of God is not wrong but God frowns at what two grown adults decides to do with themselves or what i eat..

So you see, these ideas of sin has no weight on the moral tilt of an action, it doesn't matter if your actions are of a good tilt or not you are a sinner none- the less.

So do not fret when accused of being a sinner as long as your actions are of no detrimental effect to others or the society...

This is the exact question i asked a preacher girl who accused me of being a sinner when she learnt i don't believe the God she believes..

"Am i a sinner because i don't live a moral and ethical life or because i don't believe the God you believe ?"

My actions are for humans not deity and so the effect of my actions on fellow humans and the society is all that matters to me not whether a deity likes it or not..

when we realize that an action is neither good or bad just because a religion says so either with the charge of "Thus says the lord" or not, we will learn to employ our reason and independent thinking in determining our actions towards each other..

-We are neither fallen or weak

-Our humanity is not a crime or sin

-we are not to be blamed for the actions of some fictitious couple who ate an apple.

-We have no need to be saved from angry deities who won't mind their business, we are the only ones who can offer ourselves and our children salvation by choosing to better the planet we live in.

-And most importantly we do not need forgiveness from angry Gods, we only need forgiveness from each other..

Live your life for you and your actions in respect to others around you and the society that binds us all and not an obligation to a God or religion or a means to an end to bypass punishment or get a reward..

Nobody is born a sinner or inherited the sin of Adam and eve and it's time people realized that..

johnydon22:

You see i find it very ironic you don't fancy those who make stoic assertions over a premise at the same time you make an absolute assertion over an unsure concept as God as shown by the bold.

Here the subjectivity of every society comes in play

vooks:




Mor0ns can't take a dump without stalking me. If you need my wisdom just say so

Image123:


What is imaginary here is your imaginations. The problem of sin is real. Our world obviously suffers from the consequences of sin. Every human being is naturally predisposed to evil, to cheating, lying, anger, selfishness and other such vices. Anyone who watches a baby grow up can easily observe all these, it's not something mysterious or enigmatic. This is reality and the Bible simply shows the root cause. Many millions in different generations past and present have attested to finding salvation, peace and forgiveness, it is not imaginary at all.



God is not just the Father, He is the Creator and the Judge. The devil is the father of all liars and sinners, not God. If you do not receive Him, you are not a son or a child of God, don't get it twisted.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:



Worthy of what if i may ask? What makes one worthy or unworthy?



You are not been punished for any two people's sins, you will face judgement for your own sins. Also, the Bible says nothing about any two naked couple who ate an apple, don't get it twisted.



What is sin?



Who gives these definitions, do you just pull them out of your nostrils or something? Who determines human morality, is it the courts or the house of assembly or the Constitutions or who? Can i determine morality, can you? Who made your definition more right than mine? Your school, your job, internet or facebook likes?


Again, don't get yourself in a fix/twist. Throwing together all the religioin and ideas that you manage to remember doesn't make them the same or make them disappear. It only makes you look like you don't know what you are saying.



Repeated reasoning. It's the same way Nnamdi Kanu deluded himself that nothing would happen to him if he came to Nigeria. Fear God and repent. When you die, there is judgement.


We are. Only a person without a sense of morality or conscience would agree otherwise. Can you see the human race? You do not see any faults or problems?


Depends on your definition of humanity. Being human is not a crime or a sin though.


Of course. i wonder where you get such a ridiculous idea in the first instance.


Of course. Who cares about angry deities who won't mind their business?


That's what a few percentage of deluded humans think. Their opinion is largely irrelevant in the big picture.


Who justifies this idea? What society binds you? What makes your right to be bound to some society greater than the other man's right to be bound to his God?


Really? What are the advantages of this realization again? What are the disadvantages of failing to realize?

virginboy1:


Hmmmm, does that means the devil is using the OP, for writing his views on Original Sin?

Image123:


What is imaginary here is your imaginations.

The problem of sin is real. Our world obviously suffers from the consequences of sin. Every human being is naturally predisposed to evil, to cheating, lying, anger, selfishness and other such vices. Anyone who watches a baby grow up can easily observe all these, it's not something mysterious or enigmatic. This is reality and the Bible simply shows the root cause. Many millions in different generations past and present have attested to finding salvation, peace and forgiveness, it is not imaginary at all.

God is not just the Father, He is the Creator and the Judge. The devil is the father of all liars and sinners, not God. If you do not receive Him, you are not a son or a child of God, don't get it twisted.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

You are not been punished for any two people's sins, you will face judgement for your own sins.

Also, the Bible says nothing about any two naked couple who ate an apple, don't get it twisted.

What is sin?

Who gives these definitions, do you just pull them out of your nostrils or something? Who determines human morality, is it the courts or the house of assembly or the Constitutions or who? Can i determine morality, can you? Who made your definition more right than mine? Your school, your job, internet or facebook likes?

Again, don't get yourself in a fix/twist. Throwing together all the religioin and ideas that you manage to remember doesn't make them the same or make them disappear. It only makes you look like you don't know what you are saying.

We are. Only a person without a sense of morality or conscience would agree otherwise. Can you see the human race? You do not see any faults or problems?

Depends on your definition of humanity. Being human is not a crime or a sin though.

Of course. i wonder where you get such a ridiculous idea in the first instance.

Of course. Who cares about angry deities who won't mind their business?

That's what a few percentage of deluded humans think. Their opinion is largely irrelevant in the big picture.

Who justifies this idea? What society binds you? What makes your right to be bound to some society greater than the other man's right to be bound to his God?

Really? What are the advantages of this realization again? What are the disadvantages of failing to realize?

Shollyps:
sometimes I wonder how the f**k did we believe that shitt. . especially the original sin part

who the hell is Adam n Eve?

malvisguy212:
it is either your Sunday school teacher do not understand the scripture OR you are not focusing. You and the op are confused. Now listen;

The Scripture teaches that all men
originate their own moral depravity, the bible say All men sin in spit of a Good nature.

Genesis 6:11,12.
"The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth and
behold it was corrupt; FOR ALL FLESH HAD CORRUPTED HIS WAY UPON THE EARTH."

To "corrupt" means to make morally
depraved. It means to pervert what is
good and upright. It means to make unclean what was once clean. It means to spoil what was once good and unspoiled. The word corrupt always implies a former state that was unspoiled, clean, good, or upright. It is never used to speak of the original created nature of man.It speaks of what man has become because of spoiling or perverting the nature with which he was created.

Moral beings have never needed a sinful nature to make them sin. Churches teach the first sin ever committed was committed by the devil. He did not have a sinful nature to make him sin.Churches also teach that a third of the angels fell from heaven. They did not have a sinful nature to make them sin. And scripture says both Adam and Eve sinned. They did not have a sinful
nature to make them sin. Then, why
should it be thought necessary for men to be born with a sinful nature to account for their sins? The Scripture does not teach that men must have a sinful nature in order to sin; it teaches that men sin in spite of a good nature:

Ecclesiastes 7:29
"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man UPRIGHT;but they have sought out many inventions" .

The above Scripture is very clear. God
has created men upright, but they have sinned in spite of an upright nature.This truth is taught directly, and by implication, throughout the whole Scripture.

You and your atheists friends write as if you understand the scripture, but NO, you don't understand.