emmysoftyou:
pls tell them o..
Cos i ve told udmaster the op that we the imo,abia and ebonyi dont believe such crap...

kpom, you've said it all. Abia, Imo, Ebonyi and Rivers Igbo has nothing to do with Anambra and their Nri trash. They can claim Enugu and Delta Igbo but not our area, we are distinct from them.

emmysoftyou:
pls tell them o..
Cos i ve told udmaster the op that we the imo,abia and ebonyi dont believe such crap...

kpom, you've said it all. Abia, Imo, Ebonyi and Rivers Igbo has nothing to do with Anambra and their Nri trash, our ancestral land could be Amigbo not Nri. They can claim Enugu and Delta Igbo but not our area, we are distinct from them.

emmysoftyou:
so you dont know that we the igbos re republican in nature?
anyway, that s the way of our lives.

there re okrika and ikwerre settlers in imo state and these tribes do not originate from nri.
The same to abia state(aro) and ebonyi..
But no matter how we argued here.
We re proud igbos...
Pls take note of that..
One love.

Clear point

adozie:


You Abians??... That's the problem of our society and the major problem in igboland.
What is Abia? What is Anambra??
Mental enslavement. The create states for you, give you a geopolitical name and next thing you start to discriminate, deny and divide your heritage.
I pity for this generation of Igbos

Is it not good you people get divided?

Kei144:


Okoro must be a Bini name borrowed by Igbos.

Okoro is ikwerre.

One thing you should understand is that most ikwerre names you think are igbo names are not actually igbo names. They are the shortened form of ikwerre names, usually for ease of pronunciation you mistake for igbo cos they sound alike and even have the same meaning.

A typical example is the Ikwerre name 'Anu-bia-makelachiokike' shortened to 'akelachi' and further shortened to 'kelachi'/'kelechi'

another is the male given name 'Chiokike-zi-no-soo-baduanaya'/'chiokikesoogabaduanya shortened to 'chizinosoobaduanya'/'chisoogabaduanya' and further shortened to 'Chisooanya'/ 'Chis'anya' - which means "God fears no one" or "God is no respecter of persons" or in more contemporary english "God is impartial" (Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11)

you should also note most native names not just Ikwerre names alone, are phrases and sentences. The name Okoro may just be a sentence shortened to form a word. An example is the TIV name 'Nenge' which literally means "see", and trust me you dont want to know the full name in TIV because its a very long sentence could mean "Come lets see the beauty of Gods creation" or "Come and see what God has done"

now an Ikwerre name like 'Chiokikedugam' would be shortened to 'Chidugam' and becomes 'Chinedu'/'Chinedum'/'Chinesorom' in igbo
ikwerre name like 'Ndamzi' becomes 'Nnamdi'/'Nnamudi' in igbo


cc: HopeAtHand

gykes:


Okoro is ikwerre.

One thing you should understand is that most ikwerre names you think are igbo names are not actually igbo names. They are the shortened form of ikwerre names, usually for ease of pronunciation you mistake for igbo cos they sound alike and even have the same meaning.

A typical example is the Ikwerre name 'Anu-bia-makelachiokike' shortened to 'akelachi' and further shortened to 'kelachi'/'kelechi'

another is the male given name 'Chiokike-zi-no-soo-baduanaya'/'chiokikesoogabaduanya shortened to 'chizinosoobaduanya'/'chisoogabaduanya' and further shortened to 'Chisooanya'/ 'Chis'anya' - which means "God fears no one" or "God is no respecter of persons" or in more contemporary english "God is impartial" (Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11)

you should also note most native names not just Ikwerre names alone, are phrases and sentences. The name Okoro may just be a sentence shortened to form a word. An example is the TIV name 'Nenge' which literally means "see", and trust me you dont want to know the full name in TIV because its a very long sentence could mean "Come lets see the beauty of Gods creation" or "Come and see what God has done"

now an Ikwerre name like 'Chiokikedugam' would be shortened to 'Chidugam' and becomes 'Chinedu'/'Chinedum'/'Chinesorom' in igbo
ikwerre name like 'Ndamzi' becomes 'Nnamdi'/'Nnamudi' in igbo


cc: HopeAtHand

This argument does not make sense when you compare Ikwerre vs Igbo. First who is Igbo? There is no general 'Igbo' that you should juxtapose Ikwerre with because under the same 'Igbo', there are over 500 dialectical variants of the same name. Just because a name was adopted to be the standard doesn't mean there are not many variants within the Igbo umbrella. Many of these 'Igbo' names you used to compare with Ikwerre names are actually Onitsha names which are, by far, the most widely used names in Igboland. Names such as Ifeanyi, Ifeoma, Ifechukwu, Chinwe, Chinwendu, Nnamdi, Chinedu etc.

Using the Ikwerre vs 'Igbo' examples that you gave, I will go ahead to give you different variations of the same name within the same 'Igbo' group as you've tagged it:

Onitsha/Enuani: Nnamdi
Owerri: Nnamri
Wawa/Oji River: Nnamdu
Ikwerre: Ndamzi

Onitsha/Enuani: Unu-bia-anyi-kene-olisa/osebuluwa
Owerri: anu-bia-anyi-kele-chukwu
Wawa/Oji River: ulu-bia-ka-anyi-kele-chukwu
Ikwerre: anu-bia-ma-anyi-kela-chiokike

Onitsha/Enuani: Osanedum/Chinedum (Chukwunedum)
Owerri: Chidugam (Chukwudugam)
Wawa/Oji River: Chiledum (same for some Abia state dialects)
Ikwerre: Chidugam (Chiokikedugam)

Onitsha/Enuani: Chi-anaro-aso-madu-anya
Owerri: Chi-ejila-aso-manu-anya
Ikwerre: Chiokike-zino-so-badu-anya
Standard Igbo: Chi-anaghi-aso-mmadu-anya

And the examples go on and on.

Comparing Ikwerre vs 'Igbo' does not make sense because what you compare against with is a standard that has been picked from all Igbo subgroups for harmony. Doesn't mean they all speak the same thing. Within Ikwerre itself, the dialect is not the same as Emuoha LGA speaks a dialect different from Ikwerre LGA. Infact there are 4 different Ikwerre dialects with different words and pronunciations. Some say 'omu' for children, some say 'rumu', some say 'umu'. Since there is no standard Ikwerre dialect, would it make sense to pick the Emuoha dialect of Ikwerre, for example, and compare standard Igbo (harmonized Igbo)? I mean, you tell me.

Among the English speakers of the whole world, there is no uniformity in the language. There are variations. In fact, American English differs greatly from British language in pronunciation, spelling, etc. The british says 'parlour', Americans say 'living room'. British says 'bonnet' for car, Americans say 'hood'. British says 'boot' for car, Americans say 'trunk'. British says 'windscreen', Americans say, 'windshield'. British says 'singlet', Americans say 'tank tops', British says 'trousers', Americans say 'pants', British says 'tap', Americans say 'faucet' etc. Infact, a native British speaker who has never left Britain before would struggle to communicate with an American when the topic is about cars. Likewise, an American would barely not understand certain variations of British English as found in the deeper cities of England where the pronunciations are different (considered 'conc' English or village English). There are over a thousand dissimilar words between AME and BRE, BRE and Australian English etc. Also English dialects in different regions tend to be influenced linguistically by surrounding languages. In Australia, many words from the native Maori language have made their way into Australian English. In Europe, you find more words from Spanish, French, Italian etc. making their way into British English than American English. Despite all these differences, they are still English language. All these differences allow for variation in dialects within the same language group which bring about beauty in diversity. Just like you, I could pick up over 100 different words in AME and BRE and argue how they are not dialects but different languages of their own.

When I came fresh from Nigeria to the US, I struggled to communicate with Americans because my dialect of English (our dialect is patterned after BRE, and our pronunciations are different) was different from theirs. With time, I had to adopt their own words to be able to communicate efficiently with them. In America today, I cannot walk into a clothing store and say I want to buy singlets, trousers, corporate shirt, and pants. They'll stare at you like, 'what language is this guy speaking'. Yet it is still English, only but a variation from what they are used to. However, if I say, I want to buy tank tops, pants, dress shirt and male underwear respectively, they'll flip those out for me in less than seconds.

People need to understand that in linguistics, you have a language and have languages have variations within called 'dialects'. This is common among the entire world. Spanish spoken in Mexico is different from that of Guatemala, Spain, El Salvador, Puerto Rico etc. Same applies to French dialects of african countries, France itself, Switzerland etc. Same applies for German, Italian etc. A language that is uniform amongst all speakers has just 1 dialect, which is rare, which would be boring. As groups within a language move away from each other, with time pronunciations change and new words may be adopted or existing words modified. These variations bring about the uniqueness and beauty of a language. Within Anambra state alone, there are so many dialects and the so-called Anambra Igbo people often refer to is in fact, Onitsha Igbo. Dunukofia, Idemili, Abagana, Enugwu-ukwu etc. all speak variations of themselves but in the end they are all similar.

In summary, you cannot lump the entire Igbo groups of over 250 as 'Igbo' and compare Ikwerre against an entire group of over '250', when all 250 do not speak exactly the same. If you want to compare, pick out an Igbo sub-group specifically and compare because all sub-groups do not speak exactly as one another.

Gykes, which part of Ikwerre are you from?

Bigfrancis21, kudos to you. But you should know that there are different variations of the ikwerre language with respect to kingdoms in and within Ikwerreland (just like the igbo language).

To address your post, I never compared Ikwerre vs Igbo. I'm only stating the difference in names after Kei144 made a comment saying "Okoro must be a Bini name borrowed by Igbos". Now the difference I stated above are based on, and you should know, the standard and more widely spoken Ikwerre language within Port Harcourt.

Ikwerre is a stand-alone ethnic nation with different clans and kingdoms with their distinguished variant of the language..

Now about the above diction,

The ikwerre word for 'come' in Obio/Akpor and Port Harcourt City LGAs is 'bia'.. sounds like Igbo right?

Now in Emohua LGA, the ikwerre word for 'come' becomes 'va' ... ask a TIV man what is 'come' in TIV, 'va' would be his response.

'Come here'....in Obio/Akpor & PHalga is 'bia pa' or 'bia pepa'(authoritatively)

In Emohua it becomes 'va ham'....

Now, Umuanwa, ubima etc have a very different variant as well...

obio/akpor and PHalga are referred to as 'ele-diobu' by other Ikwerre natives simply because of the similarities in their vernacular and the Igbo language, which IMO is just phonetics.

ChinenyeN:
Gykes, which part of Ikwerre are you from?

Evo kingdom

gykes:
Evo kingdom

Evo kwa? Okay. That's cool.

gykes:
Bigfrancis21, kudos to you. But you should know that there are different variations of the ikwerre language with respect to kingdoms in and within Ikwerreland (just like the igbo language).

To address your post, I never compared Ikwerre vs Igbo. I'm only stating the difference in names after Kei144 made a comment saying "Okoro must be a Bini name borrowed by Igbos". Now the difference I stated above are based on, and you should know, the standard and more widely spoken Ikwerre language within Port Harcourt.

Ikwerre is a stand-alone ethnic nation with different clans and kingdoms with their distinguished variant of the language..

Now about the above diction,

The ikwerre word for 'come' in Obio/Akpor and Port Harcourt City LGAs is 'bia'.. sounds like Igbo right?

Now in Emohua LGA, the ikwerre word for 'come' becomes 'va' ... ask a TIV man what is 'come' in TIV, 'va' would be his response.

'Come here'....in Obio/Akpor & PHalga is 'bia pa' or 'bia pepa'(authoritatively)

In Emohua it becomes 'va ham'....

Now, Umuanwa, ubima etc have a very different variant as well...

obio/akpor and PHalga are referred to as 'ele-diobu' by other Ikwerre natives simply because of the similarities in their vernacular and the Igbo language, which IMO is just phonetics.

Guy, using language as a criteria to diffireciant Ikwerre from Igbo is not valid enough. Going by your example, we say, via ebe in my dialect, lot of 'v' consonant in my dialect, which is completely different from others. Ikwerre is not Igbo politically, but by culture and language, they are more related to Igbos.... I guess you should know what I mean. Language should not be a yardstick....
The Igbo language is a cluster of different dialects that could be intelligible depending on a period of exposure to such dialect. If you have ever listened to an Afikpo man, Ikwo, or even Izzi man speaking his dialect, you will appreciate the huge differences embedded in the language.

gykes:
Bigfrancis21, kudos to you. But you should know that there are different variations of the ikwerre language with respect to kingdoms in and within Ikwerreland (just like the igbo language).

To address your post, I never compared Ikwerre vs Igbo. I'm only stating the difference in names after Kei144 made a comment saying "Okoro must be a Bini name borrowed by Igbos". Now the difference I stated above are based on, and you should know, the standard and more widely spoken Ikwerre language within Port Harcourt.

Ikwerre is a stand-alone ethnic nation with different clans and kingdoms with their distinguished variant of the language..

Now about the above diction,

The ikwerre word for 'come' in Obio/Akpor and Port Harcourt City LGAs is 'bia'.. sounds like Igbo right?

Now in Emohua LGA, the ikwerre word for 'come' becomes 'va' ... ask a TIV man what is 'come' in TIV, 'va' would be his response.

'Come here'....in Obio/Akpor & PHalga is 'bia pa' or 'bia pepa'(authoritatively)

In Emohua it becomes 'va ham'....

Now, Umuanwa, ubima etc have a very different variant as well...

obio/akpor and PHalga are referred to as 'ele-diobu' by other Ikwerre natives simply because of the similarities in their vernacular and the Igbo language, which IMO is just phonetics.

This still does not prove any point. Some places in Enugu say 'bia ka', my own village in Anambra would at times say 'bia nka'. How about some Nsukkas that would say, 'bia leka'. All these are variants of dialects within the Igbo language cluster. The thing with many Ikwerres is that many hardly leave/travel outside of PH/Ikwerre land to other areas of Nigeria, especially to Igboland to experience the vast array of dialectical variations that exist in Igboland, and to notice that those which they think are 'exclusive' to the Ikwerre dialect that make it 'different' actually exist within other Igbo dialects. Many of those Ikwerre on this forum shouting 'Ikwerre is not Igbo' have never sojourned beyond PH all their lives.

All these you've mentioned exist within English language as well yet all variants still remain English language. The fact remains that the Ikwerres are descendants of the Arochukwu people, with later migrants from Orlu and Awka.

Bigfrancis, let it go. Gykes has proven that he does not or is simply unwilling to understand. And as life would have it, understanding simply isn't something that any of us can give. We can only give information. So, you've done your part. It is up to the individual to come to an understanding on their own. We can't provide that for them.

ChinenyeN:
Bigfrancis, let it go. Gykes has proven that he does not or is simply unwilling to understand. And as life would have it, understanding simply isn't something that any of us can give. We can only give information. So, you've done your part. It is up to the individual to come to an understanding on their own. We can't provide that for them.

YOU HAVE BEEN NOTICED!!!

There's no need to shout at your cousin, Gykes. I'm only stating what I see, objectively. Basically, neither you nor Bigfrancis has anything novel to add to the discussion at this point. So, any continued interaction between you two would have eventually ended up as a repetitive loop. All I simply did was point that out.

emmysoftyou:
we the people of imo,abia and ebonyi state do not believe that nri is the father of all igbos.
Nri end and stop in anambra state.

Anyway nice write-up.

Cc B2mario,customized13,rarediamond, neduo9 and my mentor Ihuomadinihu and abagworo, abeg come clarify us..

Lool Emmysoft. Anyway this is 2016 and i think it's high time we(igbos) put a stop to these Supremacy claims. I don't know why some of you insist on washing our dirty linens in Public. Nri is not the Father of all groups in Anambra not to talk of the entire lenght and breath of Igboland!
We have told the rest of of you that we don't trace or acknowledge Nri in our ancestral records and that should be respected. It's my earnest desire that we dump these divisive assertions and channel our energy into threads that will uplift our ethnic group this New year.

.

The statement that Igbo Enwe Eze is arrant rubbish. Ancient Igbos had kings but long before the English cut of King John’s head in order to gain some rights for citizens, Igbo kings already understood that citizens rights must be respected so kings in Igboland played spiritual roles and the citizens were able to participate in the political affairs of their land, that's where the phrase Oha Na Eze came from and that's where Igbo Kwenu came from. In other parts of Nigeria, they practiced aristocracy whereby the King and his friends had absolute power (upper class).
So a King like Eze Nri was a spiritual head who was recognised all over Igboland. Go and read all the accounts of ancient Igboland by people who were actually there and they say the same thing, that is, Nshi (Nri) men with markings of the sun on their faces where the only Igbos who could travel ALL over Igbo land without being harrashed! Who sent these Nri men who served as judges across Igboland? The Eze Nri sent them. They even went as far as near Benin because in places like Agbor, they have Ozo title till today. There were two great power in ancient Igboland, the spiritual power which was in Nri and recognised as such by all Igbos and the commercial power which was at Aro. The Aros saw that spiritual power could be turned into money so they started a powerful oracle which they used to enrich themselves and gain power. But when Aros started engaging in slave trade, all Igbos who were escaping from slave raiders (Ohaofia etc) sent by the Aros all escaped to one particular place... The holy place that they all recognised called Nri which was the only kingdom within Nigeria that never engaged in slavery. The red cap, kingship, title taking, white cloth, Ofo, yam deity, Ofala, cleansing of abomination and bronze casting all came from Nri. The Nri themselves got all these from the Adamma who are the original owners of the land now called Nri before Eri and new settlers came and settled with them. The Nri are not fathers of all Igbos but based on their achievements, they must be accorded certain respects. I'm not from Nri the facts are the facts.

The earlier ones aren't igbos in the sense we now know it to be.
The present Igbo ethnic group evolved few centuries ago from peoples(Proto-Igbos) have lived for thousands of years aroun the southern part of Nigeria.
They appeared to have origins from Eri/Igala, Bini, Ibibio and aboriginal peoples.

emmysoftyou:
the names at bolded dosnt look like igbo names.

Most Igbo irredentists try to portray that Ikwerre people originated from Igbo. It may be true but may be not the whole truth.
Some Igbos may also originated from Ikwerre land.

Its clear to you now that Igbos have a lot in common with Ikwerre. I was at Ogbakiri, echichi emoh precisely, (please pardon my spelling if it is wrong) late last year for a burial, and I was amazed when I saw the Oboni cult on display. I was thinking Oboni is peculiar to Igbos alone. Though its funny, when one of the guys explained to me that the culture was exported to Igboland from Ikwerreland.

Does it not show that the fact that you have a village in Ikwerre land named 'Igbo descendants' point to the fact that Igbos are external elements in Ikwerre land?
Can you have a village of Yoruba descendants in Ibadan land or Nupe descendants in Bida or Igbo descendants in Awka?
Why did the Igbos have to flee P/Harcourt during the c/war and their properties declared abandoned properties if igbos are truly native to Port Harcourt (an Ikwerre land)? Can you have Igbo abandoned properties in Enugu, Aba or Nnewi?

bigfrancis21:


Even many of Ikwerre elders know this all too well, especially those born before the civil war. Till today, some Ikwerre elders would meet an Arochukwu man specifically and call him 'wene m', in reference to their ancestral ties. The Ikwerres elders do not do this to other Igbo groups, only to the Aros. Then you have village names in Ikwerre land such as 'umuigbo' (Igbo descendants) and yet they claim they are not Igbo. Even the pronunciation of the name has been changed to something else to disguise its meaning. Go to PH and observe how the Ikwerres have twisted the pronunciation of that name to 'rumuigboo' with a rising inflection.

oyatz:
Does it not show that the fact that you have a village in Ikwerre land named 'Igbo descendants' point to the fact that Igbos are external elements in Ikwerre land?
Can you have a village of Yoruba descendants in Ibadan land or Nupe descendants in Bida or Igbo descendants in Awka?
Why did the Igbos have to flee P/Harcourt during the c/war and their properties declared abandoned properties if igbos are truly native to Port Harcourt (an Ikwerre land)? Can you have Igbo abandoned properties in Enugu, Aba or Nnewi?

Igbos fleeing PH doesn't make sense whatsoever. Everybody in Igboland has a village that they return to. Someone living in Enugu could return to his village in Abia state. It doesn't mean Enugu isn't Igboland. Moreover, fleeing during the war was a survival tactic. When Nsukka initially fell (one of the first towns to fall), people living there fled further inside to the interior to avoid being killed. When a town fell to Nigerian soldiers, people living there fled to a safer uncaptured place. When port-harcourt fell, it was only normal that every Igbo living there, including indigenes and those who were not from portharcourt to flee to another area to avoid being killed. My paternal grandmother from Anambra told me stories of fleeing with her 9 children from Anambra even all the way down to Umuahia in present day Abia state. Ikwerres would have fled PH too for safety like other Igbos if not for the fact that they switched sides to the Nigerian side when the soldiers arrived and disclaimed being Igbo which saved most of them from being wiped out. Instead they helped the Nigerian soldiers to fish out Biafran soldiers in hiding to be killed.

In conclusion, fleeing an area is not a valid argument. If Nigeria were to get into war with, say, France and France drops a bomb in Isiokpo or Ombodo in Ikwerre land, the villagers (ikwerres) and everybody there will flee to other areas for safety. And return after the war is over. It's war survival tactic.

Thanks bro for responding with equanimity.
1) When P/Harcourt fell, igbos fled but not every humanbeings fled. Ikwerre, Ijaws and other peoples stayed.
2) When Onitsha,Enugu, Awka and Aba fell, all the igbos didn't run away. where will they run to?
3) If igbos ran away from 'their own' towns, were their properties also confiscated and also declared abandoned properties 'in their own towns'
4) Do you have villages named for Igbo descendants in a place igbos are aboriginal, just as we have Sabongari for Hausa people in most southern states? Why having a village for igbo descendants in the heart of Ikwerre land if Ikwerre and igbos are one and the same peoples?

bigfrancis21:


Igbos fleeing PH doesn't make sense whatsoever. Everybody in Igboland has a village that they return to. Someone living in Enugu could return to his village in Abia state. It doesn't mean Enugu isn't Igboland. Moreover, fleeing during the war was a survival tactic. When Nsukka initially fell (one of the first towns to fall), people living there fled further inside to the interior to avoid being killed. When a town fell to Nigerian soldiers, people living there fled to a safer uncaptured place. When port-harcourt fell, it was only normal that every Igbo living there, including indigenes and those who were not from portharcourt to flee to another area to avoid being killed. My paternal grandmother from Anambra told me stories of fleeing with her 9 children from Anambra even all the way down to Umuahia in present day Abia state. Ikwerres would have fled PH too for safety like other Igbos if not for the fact that they switched sides to the Nigerian side when the soldiers arrived and disclaimed being Igbo which saved most of them from being wiped out. Instead they helped the Nigerian soldiers to fish out Biafran soldiers in hiding to be killed.

In conclusion, fleeing an area is not a valid argument. If Nigeria were to get into war with, say, France and France drops a bomb in Isiokpo or Ombodo in Ikwerre land, the villagers (ikwerres) and everybody there will flee to other areas for safety. And return after the war is over. It's war survival tactic.

oyatz:
Thanks bro for responding with equanimity.
1) When P/Harcourt fell, igbos fled but not every humanbeings fled. Ikwerre, Ijaws and other peoples stayed.
2) When Onitsha,Enugu, Awka and Aba fell, all the igbos didn't run away. where will they run to?
3) If igbos ran away from 'their own' towns, were their properties also confiscated and also declared abandoned properties 'in their own towns'
4) Do you have villages named for Igbo descendants in a place igbos are aboriginal, just as we have Sabongari for Hausa people in most southern states? Why having a village for igbo descendants in the heart of Ikwerre land if Ikwerre and igbos are one and the same peoples?

Can you provide evidences of Languages,names of people or towns of Ikwerre that are not Igboid before the precolonian era or before the civil war (at least) to prove that Ikwerres had a distinct identity different from Igbo.

Ihuomadinihu:

Lool Emmysoft. Anyway this is 2016 and i think it's high time we(igbos) put a stop to these Supremacy claims. I don't know why some of you insist on washing our dirty linens in Public. Nri is not the Father of all groups in Anambra not to talk of the entire lenght and breath of Igboland!
We have told the rest of of you that we don't trace or acknowledge Nri in our ancestral records and that should be respected. It's my earnest desire that we dump these divisive assertions and channel our energy into threads that will uplift our ethnic group this New year.

Culturless irritants!

oyatz:
Thanks bro for responding with equanimity.
1) When P/Harcourt fell, igbos fled but not every humanbeings fled. Ikwerre, Ijaws and other peoples stayed.
2) When Onitsha,Enugu, Awka and Aba fell, all the igbos didn't run away. where will they run to?
3) If igbos ran away from 'their own' towns, were their properties also confiscated and also declared abandoned properties 'in their own towns'
4) Do you have villages named for Igbo descendants in a place igbos are aboriginal, just as we have Sabongari for Hausa people in most southern states? Why having a village for igbo descendants in the heart of Ikwerre land if Ikwerre and igbos are one and the same peoples?

1) I just explained why this happened. Read through my post again, Ikwerres switched sides to the Nigerian government and disclaimed being Igbo and were saved from being killed and wiped out. Remember that the Asaba people were not even part of Biafra as of 1967 but they were rounded up and killed in hundreds because the Nigerian soldiers perceived them to be Igbo. The same fate was to befall Ikwerre if not for the fact that they denied being Igbo and Rivers state had been formed already (with the efforts of Ikwerre elders) on the Nigerian side which the defunct Biafran republic did not recognize. What makes you think Nigerians on the whole do NOT still view Ikwerres as Igbo despite all the denials? Let me ask you a question, if the current landmass of SE and maybe Akwa Ibom and Cross River leaves Nigeria today to be on their own, with Delta Igbos and Rivers Igbos remaining behind do you think you guys remaining behind in Nigeria will still not be seen as Igbo? Or what makes you think that Ikwerres will not be viewed under the lens of Igbo after the so-called main 'Igbos' leave Nigeria or that they won't be attributed the traits and perceptions of 'Igbo' as we know it today? To many of these Nigerians, some Igbo still remain for here o, some no follow their brothers comot...probably you'll hear things like: your name na chukwudi, chinda, chiburuoma etc. (to them all na omo ibo names), una brothers don comot why una no follow dem comot? Just take time to think about this deeply.

2) Of course the people fled, they all went into hiding. My paternal grandmother and a widow at that time escaped with her 9 children from anambra to 9 miles from umuahia. Now do you know that it is possible that NOT all Igbos in PH fled? Some may have found good spots to hide in. PH was one of the last towns to fall and by virtue of this many Igbos from upland had fled further south as the Nigerian soldiers advanced downwards, and Ikwerres simply saved themselves from the same fate that occurred at Asaba, Nsukka, Owerri etc. by switching sides and disclaiming being Igbo.

3) That did not happen because many of them did not have such properties and businesses in their own villages. PH was a mega town considered an Igbo town as of then and the natives, ikwerres, did not have to flee when the soldiers came because they switched sides immediately. PH could not be compared to Isiokpo or Aluu because businesses were not there as in PH. PH was initially formed to be an extension of Enugu in terms of exporting abundant coals gotten from Enugu. Owerri also fell to the soldiers, same as Enugu but there was no abandoned property saga story in those places. Non-Enugu Igbos returned to Enugu after the war to their properties and businesses, same for Owerri. My paternal grandfather built a house close to Kenyatta market Enugu and after the war my grandmother and her 9 children returned to her husband's property in Enugu untouched. Same for Onitsha, Asaba, Aba etc. Remember, brothers would not do such to their own brother except if they did not see themselves as one. Look around you, Aba, Onitsha, Aba etc. all fell to the Nigerian soldiers and non-indigene Igbos returned to those places after the war to resume their former lives, no stories of seized properties in those states. Even in Lagos too. Only in PH did this happen (tells you the quality of minds those who did it had). Igbo vs PH/Ikwerre would be similar to Yorubas from SW living in Lagos and fleeing lets say due to a war in Lagos only to return and Lagos indigenes (those form Lagos proper who formerly identified as Yoruba and lived in peace with them) to turn around and disclaim being Yoruba and snatch up businesses and buildings of Yorubas from other SW states.

4) By this are you referring to UmuIgbo town in Rivers state? If UmuIgbo was a town for Igbo descendants not for Ikwerre people, why then was it renamed to RumuIgbo (with different or off accent pronunciation now) as most of the Ikwerre town names in PH starting with 'umu' were renamed to Rumu to properly reflect an Ikwerre identity? Why did they bother to rename a supposed Igbo town to Ikwerre naming convention if they didn't feel that town was already an Ikwerre town? Then you have Obigbo (heart of Igbo) which was renamed to Oyigbo. I would think that Umuigbo is simply a pointer of the Igbo origins of the Ikwerres, which they tried to mask by renaming it. You can virtually find Igbo in many town names as is common all over Igbo-speaking Nigeria, even among the Etches (Igbo-Etche village, Igbo Etche road) etc.

In as much as I will not follow in the train of thought that labelled the Ikwerres and probably Ijaws as saboteurs/betrayers (who turned on people they share the most linguistic affinity with in the whole world, switched sides on them and even helped Nigerian soldiers to locate hiding spots for Biafran soldiers where these people were found and shot dead immediately), the Ikwerres probably did what was best for them to avert the genocide that was to occur to them had they not denied being Igbo. Such is life.

Please answer the questions I raised, what you are saying was never part of the post you were replying.
Its not my business to tell Ikwerre or any group's history. What i was pointing out was in response to an earlier post which attempted to turn logic upside down.

michelz:
Can you provide evidences of Languages,names of people or towns of Ikwerre that are not Igboid before the precolonian era or before the civil war (at least) to prove that Ikwerres had a distinct identity different from Igbo.

1) Sir, are you aware that the Ikwerres made representation to the Willinks commission of 1958 set up by the departing colonial government to look into the fears of the ethnic minorities?
Are you aware that many Ikwerre people were part of the Calabar-Ogoja-Rivers (COR) movement in the 1950s, agitating for the creation of a separate region for ethnic minorities in the old eastern region?
I hope you know that the Ogbakor Ikwerre convention of 1963 declared Ikwerre as a distinct ethnic group?
Did all these happened because of the civil war? I think the Ikwerre used the civil war to reassert and proclaim to the whole world, their distinctness from Igbos.
Several Igbo clans who truly BELIEVE they are igbos also went through the civil war without ' changing their identities'
2) Non-Enugu igbos returned to Enugu after the war to meet their properties because the Enugu igbos see themselves and the returnees as one and the same,TRUE brotherhood !
3) Identity is SELF IMPOSED and not externally imposed.
If Hausas, Kanuris, Nupes and Yorubas referred to Ikwerre as Igbos , does that truly define them as such? most southerners called Angas, Bolewa, KareKare, Berom,Bade,Gwarri and Kanuria Hausa peoples but they are not Hausa.
4) The renaming of certain areas in Rivers was to reflect the ways the Ikwerre pronounce those words and not to make it less Igbo as some Igbos believe.
5) P/Harcourt was one of the first cities(by 1968) to fall and the reason is very easy to figure out.
Its very difficult to prosecute a war in an area in which majority of the populace don't believe in the course of the war!
This is the same reason, Book Haram can not make Owerri, P/Harcourt or Ibadan, their theatre of operations.
6) Finally as a neutral person who has studied the Igbo-Ikwerre debacle, I know that a lot of Ikwerre have Igbo origin but that's not the whole story.Ikwerre also have peoples that have Edo, Ijaw and Ogoni ancestries to produce a hybrid stock that's unique, so if they want to be on their own as a SEPARATE ETHNIC GROUP, let them be.This should not make Igbos to be embittered and start insulting them or calling them names.

Examples abound all over the world; the Seminoles are a tribal group in the US, formed in the 19th century by assimilation of black slaves into native American communities. The Moors were people during the medieval period formed from fusion of Arab and Berber tribes, the Samaritans were of Jewish and gentile ancestry and back home, the Ogori-Mangogo people in Kogi State are Yoruba people who have absorbed considerable Ebira and Nupe culture to the extent that some now pronounce themselves a new ethnic group.
In 200 years time, Delta State might have fused into one single tribe with pidgin as their language!






quote author=bigfrancis21 post=54853423]

1) I just explained why this happened. Read through my post again, Ikwerres switched sides to the Nigerian government and disclaimed being Igbo and were saved from being killed and wiped out. Remember that the Asaba people were not even part of Biafra as of 1967 but they were rounded up and killed in hundreds because the Nigerian soldiers perceived them to be Igbo. The same fate was to befall Ikwerre if not for the fact that they denied being Igbo and Rivers state had been formed already (with the efforts of Ikwerre elders) on the Nigerian side which the defunct Biafran republic did not recognize. What makes you think Nigerians on the whole do NOT still view Ikwerres as Igbo despite all the denials? Let me ask you a question, if the current landmass of SE and maybe Akwa Ibom and Cross River leaves Nigeria today to be on their own, with Delta Igbos and Rivers Igbos remaining behind do you think you guys remaining behind in Nigeria will still not be seen as Igbo? Or what makes you think that Ikwerres will not be viewed under the lens of Igbo after the so-called main 'Igbos' leave Nigeria or that they won't be attributed the traits and perceptions of 'Igbo' as we know it today? To many of these Nigerians, some Igbo still remain for here o, some no follow their brothers comot...probably you'll hear things like: your name na chukwudi, chinda, chiburuoma etc. (to them all na omo ibo names), una brothers don comot why una no follow dem comot? Just take time to think about this deeply.

2) Of course the people fled, they all went into hiding. My paternal grandmother and a widow at that time escaped with her 9 children from anambra to 9 miles from umuahia. Now do you know that it is possible that NOT all Igbos in PH fled? Some may have found good spots to hide in. PH was one of the last towns to fall and by virtue of this many Igbos from upland had fled further south as the Nigerian soldiers advanced downwards, and Ikwerres simply saved themselves from the same fate that occurred at Asaba, Nsukka, Owerri etc. by switching sides and disclaiming being Igbo.

3) That did not happen because many of them did not have such properties and businesses in their own villages. PH was a mega town considered an Igbo town as of then and the natives, ikwerres, did not have to flee when the soldiers came because they switched sides immediately. PH could not be compared to Isiokpo or Aluu because businesses were not there as in PH. PH was initially formed to be an extension of Enugu in terms of exporting abundant coals gotten from Enugu. Owerri also fell to the soldiers, same as Enugu but there was no abandoned property saga story in those places. Non-Enugu Igbos returned to Enugu after the war to their properties and businesses, same for Owerri. My paternal grandfather built a house close to Kenyatta market Enugu and after the war my grandmother and her 9 children returned to her husband's property in Enugu untouched. Same for Onitsha, Asaba, Aba etc. Remember, brothers would not do such to their own brother except if they did not see themselves as one. Look around you, Aba, Onitsha, Aba etc. all fell to the Nigerian soldiers and non-indigene Igbos returned to those places after the war to resume their former lives, no stories of seized properties in those states. Even in Lagos too. Only in PH did this happen (tells you the quality of minds those who did it had). Igbo vs PH/Ikwerre would be similar to Yorubas from SW living in Lagos and fleeing lets say due to a war in Lagos only to return and Lagos indigenes (those form Lagos proper who formerly identified as Yoruba and lived in peace with them) to turn around and disclaim being Yoruba and snatch up businesses and buildings of Yorubas from other SW states.

4) By this are you referring to UmuIgbo town in Rivers state? If UmuIgbo was a town for Igbo descendants not for Ikwerre people, why then was it renamed to RumuIgbo (with different or off accent pronunciation now) as most of the Ikwerre town names in PH starting with 'umu' were renamed to Rumu to properly reflect an Ikwerre identity? Why did they bother to rename a supposed Igbo town to Ikwerre naming convention if they didn't feel that town was already an Ikwerre town? Then you have Obigbo (heart of Igbo) which was renamed to Oyigbo. I would think that Umuigbo is simply a pointer of the Igbo origins of the Ikwerres, which they tried to mask by renaming it. You can virtually find Igbo in many town names as is common all over Igbo-speaking Nigeria, even among the Etches (Igbo-Etche village, Igbo Etche road) etc.

In as much as I will not follow in the train of thought that labelled the Ikwerres and probably Ijaws as saboteurs/betrayers (who turned on people they share the most linguistic affinity with in the whole world, switched sides on them and even helped Nigerian soldiers to locate hiding spots for Biafran soldiers where these people were found and shot dead immediately), the Ikwerres probably did what was best for them to avert the genocide that was to occur to them had they not denied being Igbo. Such is life.[/quote]