INTRODUCTION
Over the years both the sunni and shia muslim have provided their views on how fit umar is for the position of caliphate(successor of the prophet(s) ) the sunni's claim he is among the 4 RIGTHLY GUIDED CALIPHS[\b]

While the shia's claim that the number of caliphs as stated by the prophet and recorded in sunni and shia books of hadith are not 4 but 12 and umar,abu bakr and uthman are not among these twelve

I will like to investigate some actions of umar and see how fit and knowledgable he is for this position

WHO IS A CALIPH--a caliph is the successor to the prophet after his death(one who occupies the prophet's office) hence he should be the spiritual head of the community after the demise of the prophet

From the above definition it is seen that who ever should occupy the position of caliphate should be the most knowledgeable and spiritual person-

To cut the long story short,let us examine some aspects of the life of umar and see how fit he is for leadership

1[b]UMAR AND THE DEATH OF LADY FATIMAH
On the etiquettes of entering peoples house the koran says---
O ye whe BELIEVE! Enter not houses other than your own,until ye have asked permission and saluted those in them: that is BEST for you,in order that ye may heed(what is seemly)..if ye find no one in the house,enter not until permission is given to you:if ye aRE ASKeD TO GO BACK,Go BACK: that makes for greater purity for yourselves: and Allah knows well all that ye do---surah an-nur(24:27-28)yusuf ali

According to books of hadith(sunni and shia alike) it is narrated that umar was the source of lady fatima's death in that he forcibly entered the house of bibi fatimah which resulted to her miscarriage and ultimate death[/b]

This action of umar begs the question of is knowledge about the verse of the koran regarding etiquettes on how to enter another's house and also begs the question that; how can such a person who isn't well learned on this verse of the koran be fit to rule the muslim ummah? Are there non who are more knowledgable than him?

---regarding inflicting harms on the prophet it is stated in the glorious koran

And those whom inflict harm on the Messenger of
Allah will receive a chastising punishment--Surat At-Tawba, verse 61

---CONnection between inflicting harm on lady fatimah and inflicting harm on prophet mohammad

Fatima is part of me, whosoever angers her angers
me! ---Fat-h Al-Bari fi sharh sahih al-Bukhari 7:84,
Sahih al-Bukhari – in the chapter ‘alamat an-nubuwwa 6:491, the last part of Kitabil Maghazi 8:110

It is also worthy of mention that whoever angers the noble prophet angers Allah--so invariably whoever angers lady fatimah anger Allah

O Fatima! Verily Allah is angered by your anger and is pleased when you are pleased. (Mustadrak Al-Hakim 3:154, Majma’ Al-zawa-id 9:203)

--REGARDING ThE SAcrEDNESS AND SANCTITY oF LADY Fatimah's House

“In houses which Allah has ordered to be raised, in
them His Name is remembered”. A man approached him and asked him, “Which houses are they O Messenger of Allah?” He replied, “The houses of the Prophets”. So Abu Bakr asked him while pointing to the house of Ali and Fatima: “Is this house included amongst those houses?” The Messenger of Allah replied: “YES, IT IS THE BEST AMONGST THEM!” (Ad-Dur Al-manthur 6:203, Ruhul Ma’ani 18:174)

---rEGARDLING LADY FATIMAH's POSITION

The prophet said---O Fatima! Are you not pleased to be the leader of the ladies of the worlds, and the leader of the ladies of these people (ummah) and the leader of all believing ladies. (Mustadrak Al-Hakim 3:156)


---with all that has been stated above,,one will be compelled to ask

--is umar ignorant of this verse of the koran
-is he also ignorant of how sacred the house of lady fatimah is
--is he ignorant of what position lady fatimah occupy in the heart of the prophet
--is he ignorant of what position lady fatimah held among the woman of paradise
--is he ignorant of the fact that who ever angers fatimah angers Allah

If he is ignorant of all these I think its high time one questioned his knowledge on other aspect of islam and question his caliphate

If he is not ignorant of the above face will it not mean a greater hindrance against the vivacity and efficacy of his caliphate; in that he acts based on his whim and desires putting God's word and the prophets statements aside

FoR READERS wHo DON'T KNOW that umar was the cause of bibi fatimah's death-below are some narrations from sunni sources

---Umar kicked Fatima until she miscarried Muhassan. (Mizan Al-I’tidal 3:459)

---On the day of pledging allegiance (to Abu Bakr)
Umar hit the stomach of Fatima until she miscarried
Muhassan. (Al-Wafi bil Wafiyyat 6:17)

---Umar asked for wood, and told those people
inside the house: "I swear by Allah who has my soul in his hand, that if you do not come out, I will burn the house." Someone told Umar that Fatimah was inside the house. Umar said: "So what! It doesn't matter to me who is in the house." Sunni reference: al-Imamah wa al-Siyasah by Ibn Qutaybah, v1, pp 3,19-20

---Al Bukhari Vol. 8 Narration 817
it states Umar ibn Al-Khattab said, “And no doubt
after the death of The Prophet we were
informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and
gathered in the shed of Bani Sa’da. Ali, Zubair,
and whoever was with them opposed us while
the Al-Muhajiroon (the immigrants) gathered
with Abu Bakr.”
Also within the other Bakri texts such as the
Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal Vol. 5 page 55, Sirah
Al Nabawiyyah by Ibn Hisham Vol. 4 page 309, and
The History of Tabari Vol. 1 page 1822 it states
Umar ibn Al-Khattab said, “Ali ibn Abi Talib,
Zubair ibn Awwam, and those who were with
them separated from us and gathered in the
house of Fatimah, the daughter of the
messenger of Allah.”
The History of Tabari in its Vol. 9 pages 188-189 give
us a more detailed account of what happened once
Umar had reached the door and where a clear form
of opposition was demonstrated within the
presence of Imam Ali (as) himself who showed no
objection to the behavior as it states, “They
demanded confirmation of the oath, but Ali and
al-Zubair stayed away. Al-Zubair drew his sword
(from the scabbard), saying, “I will not put it
back until the oath of allegiance is rendered to
Ali.” When this news reached Abu Bakr and
Umar, the latter said, “Hit him with a stone and
seize the sword.” It is stated that Umar rushed
(to the door of the House of Fatimah) and
brought them forcibly while telling them that
they must give their oath of allegiance willingly
or unwillingly.”

To be continued in sha Allah

Cc albaqir,kennyosein,empire, et cetera et cetera

So the point of this thread is to castigate a companion of the prophet(umar) and indirectly promote the shia sect?

lexiconkabir:
So the point of this thread is to castigate a companion of the prophet(umar) and indirectly promote the shia sect?

lol--brother the point of the thrend is investigate the actions of umar and see if he is truely fit for the position of caliphate---its investigaton not castigation

As regards to promoting shiism or not,, I only stand where truth is

BETATRON:
lol--brother the point of the thrend is investigate the actions of umar and see if he is truely fit for the position of caliphate---its investigaton not castigation

As regards to promoting shiism or not,, I only stand where truth is

And if he wasnt, then whats next?

lexiconkabir:
And if he wasnt, then whats next?

then we don't consider him as a rightly guided caliph

BETATRON:
then we don't consider him as a rightly guided caliph

And then the sunnis are in manifest error, the shias are the saved ones, isnt that the whole point of this thread?

lexiconkabir:
And then the sunnis are in manifest error, the shias are the saved ones, isnt that the whole point of this thread?

that's your decision to make sir---i don't see anything wrong is examining the life of the caliph to see if they are rightly guided or not---even the after much examination the sunni tagged umar,uthman,abu bakr and ali as the rightly guided caliphs--what about the rest of the sunni caliph are they wrongly guided?

So are you against the fact that I investigate the lifes of our rightly guided caliph? Oh should I just follow them not knowing what and what makes them rightly guided?

also worth mentioning is the fact that the prophet stated that the ummah will split into various factions and only one will be the rightly guided---since the issue of caliphate is a clear area of separation between the two major sects,I think investigating the lifes of this caliph will also lead one to a lot of truths---as the caliph play a very important role in the future of the ummah

lexiconkabir:
So the point of this thread is to castigate a companion of the prophet(umar) and indirectly promote the shia sect?

Why is every research that has to do with the life of Sahabah esp the dark side of their lives is usually being seen as Sunni-Shi'i?

Can't it just be an academic research / dialogue? The scholars who kept those reports in their valuable books, preserved from one generation till the next and so on, were they at fault?

Or should we restate Islamic history by deleting all the darkest sides of some companions?

What about several verses that exposed some of these companions? Should we stop reciting and stop Tafsir on them?

I don't see castigation of any sahabah in this thread other than stating what is written and documented in Islamic history.

lexiconkabir:
And then the sunnis are in manifest error, the shias are the saved ones, isnt that the whole point of this thread?

lexiconkabir:
And if he wasnt, then whats next?

lexiconkabir:
So the point of this thread is to castigate a companion of the prophet(umar) and indirectly promote the shia sect?

You can see yourself now. These are the same sets of people you were clamouring unity with! Yet, Albaqir denied all Kennyosein said about them in your thread. You can see their true colour now! Is it possible for somebody to unite with people who perpetually say all sorts of evils about someboby's father and rain curses on him?

MrOlai:






You can see yourself now. These are the same sets of people you were clamouring unity with! Yet, Albaqir denied all Kennyosein said about them in your thread. You can see their true colour now! Is it possible for somebody to unite with people who perpetually say all sorts of evils about someboby's father and rain curses on him?

my brother! Have I insulted umar in any way--all I did was investigate an aspect of his history to see if he is truely worthy of caliphacy

The bitter truth is these things were clearly stated in the sunni books,,,why are these facts stated in the sunni books?

Its just like some1 who claims isah(a) is God and has nothing to back his point and doesn't what prove that he isn't from his own trusted book

It's not that difficult to know a research predicated on prejudiced and unjustified hatred. You guys keep looking for faults of these close companions and confidants of the Prophet (SAW), you seek to denigrate them and call them all sorts of unprintable names. I don't know whether to call these your actions as a result of brainwashing, or perhaps you are being paid.

Anyways, I ask you shi'as, what did Ali (AS) do when all these were happening to his wife Fatima (AS)?! So Ali (RA), the rightly guided caliph, the "infallible Imam", the brave, the lion heart, just folded his arms and looked on?! I beg you guys to give us the reaction of Ali (Karamllahu Wajhahu) during the time of Umar (RA), Uthman (RA), or even during his reign as the caliph...

NB: please quote sunni sources not your books of lies, since you are quoting sunni sources to back your claims.

For the sincere readers, please read the following in regards to position of Ali (AS) and the ahl-l-bayt on Umar (RA):

Abu Sariha said that I heard ALI saying on the pulpit “Indeed Abu Bakr was very kind hearted person and indeed Umar was a well wisher of God’s religion, hence Allah did good to him.(tabqat ibn saad, vol 3, page 121)

Ubaidullah bin Mussa narrates from Abu Aqeel that a man asked ALI about Abu Bakr and Umar, he said Indeed they were IMAMS OF GUIDANCE, and righteous ones and guiders.(tabqat ibn saad, vol3, page 139)

Abdullah narrates that I heard ALI saying : Every Prophet is given 7 Najeeb from his Ummah, and Prophet (s) was given 14 Najeeb in his Ummah, and amongst them are Abu Bakr and Umar.(musnad ahmed, vol 1, page 132)

Abdullah ibn Ahmad narrated in his Sunnan(#1303):

From Salim ibn Abu Hafs: “I asked Abu Jafar and Jafar about Abu Bakr and Umar (may Allah be pleased with them). And they say: “O Salim, befriend to them, and dissolve from their enemies, indeed THEY WERE IMAMS OF GUIDANCE” And Jafar said to me: “O Salim, Abu Bakr is my grandfather, does man can abuse his grandfather? And may the intercession of Mohammad not reach me on the day of judgement, if I wouldn’t befriend with them, and wouldn’t dissolve from their enemies”

In his “Siyar” at page 259 Dhahabi narrated:

From AbdulJabar ibn Al-Abbas al-Hamadani: ”Jafar as-Sadiq came to them when they were leaving Madinah and told them: You are inshallah from amongst the best of people from your country (or from your Egypt) So report to them from me: He who claims that I’m an infallible imam who must be obeyed, I disassociate myself from him and he who claims that I disassociate myself from Abu Bakr and Umar, I disassociate myself from him.”

Abdullah ibn Abbas(ra) was asked: what have you got to say about umar: he answered: May Allah have mercy on Abu hafs(umar). I swear that he was an ally of islam, a shelter for the orphans, a residence for faith, an example of benevolence, a resort for the weak, a defender of the truth, a source of help for people. Armed with patience and seeking Allah’s reward, he strove till islam was victorious , provinces conquered, and the name of Allah(swt) mentioned on hills and landscapes. He glorified Allah in times of plenty and hardships, and was grateful to him all the time. Whoever hates him shall be doomed till Judgment day.[( quoted from Ar riyad An Nadirah) (Biographies of the rightly guided caliphs page 267)]

Ali bin abi Talib (RA) said: I was with the Prophet PBUH then Abu Bakr and Umar may Allah be pleased with them arrived so he PBUH told me: O Ali these two are the Masters of the elderly of the people of paradise and its youth after the Prophets and the messengers.
sources: Musnad Ahmad 2/38.
Hadith Grading: SAHIH.
– Takhreej Mishkat al Masabih 5/409
– Al Jami’i al Sagheer 4758
– Al Fath al Rabbani 11/5650

Ibn Asakir related that Yasar Ibn Hamzah said: When Abu Bakr got gravely ill, he appeared to people from a small window; he said to them: “O people I have decided to entrust somebody to the caliphate, are you going to accept that ?” The people said: “We accepted that O the Caliph (successor) of the Messenger of Allah.” ^ALI IBN ABI TALIB stood and said: “We will never accept other than ^Umar.” Abu Bakr said: “It will be Umar.” This was mentioned by as-Suyutiyy in the “Tarikh al-Khulafa’”.


Abd khair said (once)ALI (ra) while he was sitting on the minbar said: Prophet(Saw) passed away and Abubakar(ra) was appointed as khalipha . He(ra) implemented his duty according to the way of prophet(Saw) and continued working according to the seerah of prophet(Saw) until he died, then Umar(ra) became the khalipha, he too implemented his duty like the way prophet(saw) and Abubakar(ra) did, and worked according to their seerah and died on the same way (Majmua al zawaid, vol 5, page 179).

So you shi'as in your researches, you didn't come across all the above? There are more to show Umar (RA) was not only fit, but knowledgeable and God fearing to be the Imam after the death of the Prophet (SAW).

You can keep hating, keep finding faults, and denigrating these companions of the Prophet (SAW), but you can't change their status in front of Allah (SWT) nor in the hearts of billions and billions of sincere believers. I'll advise you though, instead of wasting your time and seeking to degrade who Allah (SWT) has blessed, you guys should be worried about yourselves, your status before Allah (SWT) with all these your silly activities on this forum and in the real world.

Assalam Alaykum.

^yeah--the question of Ali's retaliation to umar's action on lady fatimah has always been put foward to nullify this historic occurrence--well below is how Ali reacted to it
“FIST I WILL LiKe TO mENTION THE PROPHET's STATEMENT TO ALI before His(prophet(s)) death...----- Have
patience regarding what will befall on you and her (Fatima) (as) until you meet me.’” [3]
3.Al-Radi, Khasa’is al-A’imma, p. 73
Al-Majlesi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 22, p. 474
:

needless to mention any narration about why ali didn't retaliate,one who knows the narration will easily conclude that he choose patience out of obedient to the prophets statement as shown above--hence choosing the better of two options

Now to how Ali reacted

“Umar asked for fire and set the door on fire. He
then pushed the door and went in. Fatima (as)
confronted Umar and shouted: ‘Ya Abata! Ya
RasulAllah! (Oh father! Oh messenger of Allah!).’
Umar raised his sword while it was in its sheath
and hit Fatima (as) on her side. She cried: ‘Ya
Aabta! (Oh father).’ Umar raised his whip and hit
Fatima’s (as) arm with it.
She (as) wailed: ‘Ya RasulAllah! (Oh messenger of
Allah!) How evil are Abu-Bakr and Umar (acting)
after you have left!’ Ali (as) jumped up and grabbed Umar by the collar while pulling him by force. He then threw him on the floor and hit him on the nose and neck, wanting to kill him. However, He (as)
remembered the order of the messenger of Allah
(s) and his will and said: ‘O son of Sahhak! I swear
by the one who gave Muhammad (s) high stature
by assigning him as a Prophet, if it was not
because of what Allah had destined, and the
covenant between the Prophet (s) and me, you
would have known that you couldn’t enter my
house!’”1. Sulaim b. Qays,(companion of imam ali(a) --the book of sulaim..p.568

Wa alaykum salaam

BETATRON:
my brother! Have I insulted umar in any way--all I did was investigate an aspect of his history to see if he is truely worthy of caliphacy

The bitter truth is these things were clearly stated in the sunni books,,,why are these facts stated in the sunni books?

Its just like some1 who claims isah(a) is God and has nothing to back his point and doesn't what prove that he isn't from his own trusted book

Haha..ha! Don't you know that ANY Sunni Sahih hadith that expose inequality or hypocrisy of a Sahabi becomes an "insult and curses" in the world of Salafiyah-Wahabiyah (like kennyosein, MrOlai, Sino et al) the moment you quote or post such hadith?! Interestingly, Mr Sino consciously use foul words for Sahabah yet it is not term abusive. Words like "RECKLESS ATTITUDES", "DELUSIONAL" etc.

# I think Imam al-Ghazali's status was relegated because of his remarks on Umar ibn al-Khattab in particular.

# Even if a Sahabi or a group of Sahabah accused the noble Prophet of "MENTALLY DERAILED" and "POSSESSED BY SICKNESS", it is okay in Salafiyah-Wahabiyah manhaj. Don't just mess with any Sahabah be it hypocrite or apostate, they are all righteous! What a crazy world.

AlBaqir:



Ha ha..ha! Don't you know that ANY Sunni Sahih hadith that expose inequality or hypocrisy of a Sahabi becomes an "insult and curses" in the world of Salafiyah-Wahabiyah (like kennyosein, MrOlai, Sino et al) the moment you quote or post such hadith?! Interestingly, Mr Sino consciously use foul words for Sahabah yet it is not term abusive. Words like "RECKLESS ATTITUDES", "DELUSIONAL" etc.

# I think Imam al-Ghazali's status was relegated because of his remarks on Umar ibn al-Khattab in particular.

# Even if a Sahabi or a group of Sahabah accused the noble Prophet of "MENTALLY DERAILED" and "POSSESSED BY SICKNESS", it is okay in Salafiyah-Wahabiyah manhaj. Don't just mess with any Sahabah be it hypocrite or apostate, they are all righteous! What a crazy world.

walahi its amazing,you simply become an enemy for saying the truth---well that's how it as been for years immemorial---people tend to be sentimental about their beliefs than be intellectual about
it

That shouldn't prevent one from saying the truth anyways

---maybe umar introduction of bid'ha(good bidha as he called it) will be my second point in sha Allah

Disobedience to the prophet and his teachings

let those who oppose the commands of the prophet fear DISASTER AND A PAINFUL torment--24:63

Investigating the life of the prophet and his companions we say that there exists some of his companions who,whenever his commands ran contrary to their wisges and inclinations,pressed him to change his mind,or start complaining when they despaired of reaching their goals--and unfortunately umar the rightly guided caliph is in this category

INVESTIGATE WITH ME

refusing to go to battle as ordered by the prophet

during the last days of his blessed life,the prophet prepared an army to do battle with the byzantines and he appointed usamah b.zayd as the commander.this appointment of a young man,despite the availability of older men,proved displeasing to some of the companions,and led to an ARGUMENT and those who were strongly opposed to usamah's appointment ASKED the prophet to dismiss him,but he paid no attention to their request and COMMANDED abu bakr,uthman, and umar to join the ranks of the muslim army BUT THEY NOT oNLY DISREGARDED MILITARY DISCIPLINE BUT ALSO DISOBEYED THE CATEGoRICAL COMMAND OF THE PROPHET. splitting of from the army and returning to medinah--ibn hisham,al sirah vol4p338,al-yakubi,al-tarikh vol2p92; ibn al-athir,al kamil,vol2p120-121

---REFusing the request Holy prophet

The prophet in his death bed said[b]bring me a pen and a paper so that I can write for you a document to prevent you from ever going astray---ahmed b. Hanbal,al-musnad vol1p346; mulsim sahih-vol 5p76;tarikh al-tabari vol2p436

Umars reaction
umar on hearing this said:the prophet of Allah has BECOME DELIRIOUS -note:other book of hadith in other to soften the offensiveness of his words,maintain that he said---SICKNES has overcome the prophet;you have the book of Allah at your disposal,which is enough for you--sahih muslim-vol3p1259; al-bukhari vol4p5,,musnad ahmad b. Hanbal. Hdt no2992

---the first part shows a clear disrespect of the prophet and the Allah and also a disregard of the verse against running away from jihad

----the second part make it seem as if the prophet of Allah was unaware of the importance of the Book of Allah and umar is better aware than he is----

---the prophet says nothing out of fancy,and whatever he utters is the fruit of revelation from his LORD--k53:3-4

I leave you to judge on how knowledgeable umar truely is or how fit he is to rule the muslim ummah

none has free choice when confronted with the Command of God and His messenger. whosoever disobeys the commands of God and His messenger falls PREY TO OBVIOUS MISQUIDANCE-k33:34

I have said it in the other thread by lexiconkabir on unity of the muslim umma. The Shia must first cease from insulting the Sahaba before any meaningful unity is achieved, they are only good at taqiyya. They don't believe in many verses of the holy Quran like Quran 48 verse 18 and the first 11 verses of Suratun Nur among others. Had they believed in such verses they wouldn't have been spewing trash about the Sahabas (RA).

carinmom:
I have said it in the other thread by lexiconkabir on unity of the muslim umma. The Shia must first cease from insulting the Sahaba before any meaningful unity is achieved, they are only good at taqiyya. They don't believe in many verses of the holy Quran like Quran 48 verse 18 and the first 11 verses of Suratun Nur among others. Had they believed in such verses they wouldn't have been spewing trash about the Sahabas (RA).

# If Sahih ahadith that exposed the true color of some companions are posted, the only thing you are programmed to think and say is "they are abusing Sahabah".

# If Quranic verses that exposed the Munafiqun among the Sahabah are posted, again the slogan never change. It is "they are abusing Sahabah"

Here are remarks of your notable Imams about Umar ibn al-Khattab. I hope you will labelled them Shia for speaking the truth:


1. Imam al-Ghazali (d. 450 H) writes:

The people and scholars agree upon the context of the narration of the sermon on the day of Ghadir Khum in which the Prophet (saw) said, "Whoever I am the Mawla then Ali (a) is the Mawla." Then Umar Ibn Khattab said: 'Congratulations! Oh Abal Hasan, you have become my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer.'

This shows his (Umar) submission and acceptance and confirmation (of Ali's wilayah). However after that, he (i.e Umar) was defeated by his desire and love of power in flag of leadership, and he was dominated by desire, and the desire to hold the flag of Caliphate, and the joy to open and conquer states, and by that they (i.e Umar and his cohorts) reverted to the early phase, they dispensed with the agreement (of Ghadir Khum) and sold it at a low price. And also the Prophet (saw) in his last illness before his death said: "Bring me a tablet and ink-pot, so that I may write for you a document by following which you will never go astray" whereupon Umar said: "Don't bring it, the man is talking nonsense.'"

Ref: Sirr al-Alamayn wa kash'f ma fid Darayn, pg.23.

Imam Sibt b. Jawzi also quoted this in his: Tadhkirat Ul-Khawa'is, pg.62.

2. Imam Ibn Athir writes:

In the narrations of the illness of Allah's Apostle (saws), they said: "What is wrong with him? Has he lost his consciousness? Ask him." It means that 'is the Prophet talking nonsense because of his illness.' they wanted to know, and it means that 'is he delirious because of his illness?' This is the best way to interpret that narration and it should not be said as a declarative sentence, because it means either talking nonsense or delirious. AND THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS UMAR, AND THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST HIM.

Ref: Al-Nihaya Fi Gharib Al-Hadith, vol.1, p.#246.

NB: Scan pages of those books are very much available if you need.

carinmom:
I have said it in the other thread by lexiconkabir on unity of the muslim umma. The Shia must first cease from insulting the Sahaba before any meaningful unity is achieved, they are only good at taqiyya. They don't believe in many verses of the holy Quran like Quran 48 verse 18 and the first 11 verses of Suratun Nur among others. Had they believed in such verses they wouldn't have been spewing trash about the Sahabas (RA).

O the shias believe and follow every verse of the koran and do not cherry pick as you have accused--but I still don't see how this thrend as insulted umar in any way

You call it spewing trash--well I §hould remind you that these things you call trash today are stated in your authentic books of hadith ----its funny how investigating the lifes of the rightly guided caliph to see if they truely are rightly guided is an insult to the
rightly guided cÀliph

Now how do you term the actions of the caliph against the prophet? An insult to the prophet of Allah and ultimately an insult to God almighty? N0?

--you companion is neither astray nor being misled--quran53:2 yet the called him delirious

nor does he say(aught) of his own desire-quran53;3 yet they disobeyed him when he commanded them to go to battle

it is no less than inspiration sent down to him--meaning disobeying him is disobeying Allah

So the questions arise are this people who disobey the commands of Allah even when the prophet was fit to occupy the prophets office after his demise

BETATRON:
^yeah--the question of Ali's retaliation to umar's action on lady fatimah has always been put foward to nullify this historic occurrence--well below is how Ali reacted to it
“FIST I WILL LiKe TO mENTION THE PROPHET's STATEMENT TO ALI before His(prophet(s)) death...----- Have
patience regarding what will befall on you and her (Fatima) (as) until you meet me.’” [3]
3.Al-Radi, Khasa’is al-A’imma, p. 73
Al-Majlesi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 22, p. 474
:

needless to mention any narration about why ali didn't retaliate,one who knows the narration will easily conclude that he choose patience out of obedient to the prophets statement as shown above--hence choosing the better of two options

Now to how Ali reacted

“Umar asked for fire and set the door on fire. He
then pushed the door and went in. Fatima (as)
confronted Umar and shouted: ‘Ya Abata! Ya
RasulAllah! (Oh father! Oh messenger of Allah!).’
Umar raised his sword while it was in its sheath
and hit Fatima (as) on her side. She cried: ‘Ya
Aabta! (Oh father).’ Umar raised his whip and hit
Fatima’s (as) arm with it.
She (as) wailed: ‘Ya RasulAllah! (Oh messenger of
Allah!) How evil are Abu-Bakr and Umar (acting)
after you have left!’ Ali (as) jumped up and grabbed Umar by the collar while pulling him by force. He then threw him on the floor and hit him on the nose and neck, wanting to kill him. However, He (as)
remembered the order of the messenger of Allah
(s) and his will and said: ‘O son of Sahhak! I swear
by the one who gave Muhammad (s) high stature
by assigning him as a Prophet, if it was not
because of what Allah had destined, and the
covenant between the Prophet (s) and me, you
would have known that you couldn’t enter my
house!’”1. Sulaim b. Qays,(companion of imam ali(a) --the book of sulaim..p.568

Wa alaykum salaam

Typical response, you neglected where your infallible Imam guaranteed that Umar is rightly guided and worthy of being the caliph. I had asked your brother AlBaqir if you guys truly follow the ahl-l-bayt, but you guys keep going against their verdicts, how this eludes you guys is still a mystery...

Bros didn’t you read my NB?! I said do not quote fabricated hogwash to me; you still went ahead and quote me a superstory?! Na wa o. I have advised you, if you like take it, if you like reject it, na you sabi.

Let me even indulge you a little to show your folly, so Imam Ali (AS) the infallible, yet according to this your ficticious story forgot the Prophet’s injuctions and only remembered when he was about to give the death blow to Umar (RA)?! Honestly, this is even beyond ridiculous, not to mention very silly. Please seek proper knowledge and not these fake stories that your masters feed you with.

On the book you are quoting from,

[b]“Aban bin Abi Ayyash was weakened by Al-Tusi. Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri adds that the Shias suggest that he fabricated the book of Sulaym bin Qays.” [/b]See Dhu’afa’a Rijal Al-Hadith 1/134.

Al-Bahbudi comments, “There is no doubt that the book is fabricated, and there are signs that suggest this: Like that Mohammad bin Abi Bakr (who was an infant at the time) advised his father upon his deathbed and that the Imams are thirteen.” See Ma’rifat Al-Hadeeth p. 359.

Sulaym bin Qays himself is unknown nor is there any mention of him or any information concerning him in the books of history or Rijal. The correct view upon research is that there was a man known as “Salm bin Qays al-Hilali” not “Sulaym”, this man was a liar who used to narrate mainly from Anas bin Malik and al-Hasan al-Basri, meaning he is a late narrator and couldn’t have narrated anything from `Ali himself. Shia scholars claimed he was a companion of `Ali and fabricated a book and attributed it to this man.

Source: http: //twelvershia . net/2014/07/01/response-to-the-oppression-of-sayeda-fatima-s-a-part-vii-i/

Sincere readers can read more about Fatima (RA) and other issues regarding her and Umar (RA) also in the above link (copy and paste in address bar, delete the spaces)

AlBaqir:



Haha..ha! Don't you know that ANY Sunni Sahih hadith that expose inequality or hypocrisy of a Sahabi becomes an "insult and curses" in the world of Salafiyah-Wahabiyah (like kennyosein, MrOlai, Sino et al) the moment you quote or post such hadith?! Interestingly, Mr Sino consciously use foul words for Sahabah yet it is not term abusive. Words like "RECKLESS ATTITUDES", "DELUSIONAL" etc.

# I think Imam al-Ghazali's status was relegated because of his remarks on Umar ibn al-Khattab in particular.

# Even if a Sahabi or a group of Sahabah accused the noble Prophet of "MENTALLY DERAILED" and "POSSESSED BY SICKNESS", it is okay in Salafiyah-Wahabiyah manhaj. Don't just mess with any Sahabah be it hypocrite or apostate, they are all righteous! What a crazy world.

Mr AlBaqir, even if you do not have a hard copy of a dictionary, at least you do have access to the internet. I decided to ignore your comment on the thread you brought up this issues, I had thought with time you would have realized your folly but alas! Here we are again…

First and foremost, on the thread I used delusional, I did write “mistaken” to indicate what meaning I was driving at especially, as I was translating from Arabic to English, but it is now clear your mind works only in seeing derogatory remarks and dissing, I would have spelt it out to you properly then, but I believe it is not too late to help your mind think straight. Here is a free dictionary meaning of the word “delusion”

de•lu•sion
(dĭ-lo͞o′zhən)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.

2.
a. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
b. Psychiatry A false belief or perception that is a manifestation of a mental illness: delusions of persecution.

Note if you may, the bold meaning of the word delusion and tell me how that is insulting?!

Secondly, in regards to my usage of reckless attitude, I was only quoting “the sealed nectar’s” translation of Umar’s statement admitting his mistake, wherein he sought repentance for his action. But you guys do not care about that, you focus on that reckless attitude, filling your hearts and mind with negativity, and not thinking good about the companions of the Prophet (SAW) to what end? Just to denigrate him, and paint him bad or what else do you seek?! Your antecedents and that of your masters are well known.

I am deeply astonished as to how people would even accept you guys’ hogwash as knowledge and intellectualism, I shudder at such a person who after proper study (even with common sense) would even think you guys have any genuine point. Well Allah (SWT) is the only one who guides, I keep praying Allah (SWT) guide us all, even as I firmly believe that guidance only come to those who are sincere and hold on to the truth.

BTW, I am still expecting your rebuttal on the Mahdi thread o!

AlBaqir:


# If Sahih ahadith that exposed the true color of some companions are posted, the only thing you are programmed to think and say is "they are abusing Sahabah".

# If Quranic verses that exposed the Munafiqun among the Sahabah are posted, again the slogan never change. It is "they are abusing Sahabah"

Here are remarks of your notable Imams about Umar ibn al-Khattab. I hope you will labelled them Shia for speaking the truth:


1. Imam al-Ghazali (d. 450 H) writes:

The people and scholars agree upon the context of the narration of the sermon on the day of Ghadir Khum in which the Prophet (saw) said, "Whoever I am the Mawla then Ali (a) is the Mawla." Then Umar Ibn Khattab said: 'Congratulations! Oh Abal Hasan, you have become my Mawla and the Mawla of every believer.'

This shows his (Umar) submission and acceptance and confirmation (of Ali's wilayah). However after that, he (i.e Umar) was defeated by his desire and love of power in flag of leadership, and he was dominated by desire, and the desire to hold the flag of Caliphate, and the joy to open and conquer states, and by that they (i.e Umar and his cohorts) reverted to the early phase, they dispensed with the agreement (of Ghadir Khum) and sold it at a low price. And also the Prophet (saw) in his last illness before his death said: "Bring me a tablet and ink-pot, so that I may write for you a document by following which you will never go astray" whereupon Umar said: "Don't bring it, the man is talking nonsense.'"

Ref: Sirr al-Alamayn wa kash'f ma fid Darayn, pg.23.

Imam Sibt b. Jawzi also quoted this in his: Tadhkirat Ul-Khawa'is, pg.62.

2. Imam Ibn Athir writes:

In the narrations of the illness of Allah's Apostle (saws), they said: "What is wrong with him? Has he lost his consciousness? Ask him." It means that 'is the Prophet talking nonsense because of his illness.' they wanted to know, and it means that 'is he delirious because of his illness?' This is the best way to interpret that narration and it should not be said as a declarative sentence, because it means either talking nonsense or delirious. AND THE PERSON WHO SAID THAT IS UMAR, AND THIS IS NOT AN ACCUSATION MADE AGAINST HIM.

Ref: Al-Nihaya Fi Gharib Al-Hadith, vol.1, p.#246.

NB: Scan pages of those books are very much available if you need.

Let me ask you this, do you know Husainiyya Bakiyyatullah in Zaria?

^ you seek a reply as to these alleged or imposed statements of Ali qualifying umar and other as worthy of climbing the office of the prophet

---well this is illogical and fallacious,--attributed to ali to make it seem as thou the were the chosen once----

Let see what umar said about himself

[b]toward the end of his life umar himself came to regonise the negative effects of his policy and he said: -if I had remained alive this year,I WILL ESTABLISH EQUALITY IN ISLAMIC SOCIETY AND ABOLISH DISCRIMINATION-i will act in the way of the prophet, and abu bakr---taha husayn,al-fitnat al-kubra vol1p108----why was umar regretful during the last stage of his life---see reason below

---he introduced class difference(increased racial tension between the parsians and the arabs)--al-yakubi,al tarikh vol2p107

---he established a discriminatory system of distributing public monies,awarding more to the qurayshite migrants than to the non-qurayshite migrants,more to migrants than helpers,more to arabs than non-arabs and more to master than clients---ibn abi'l-hadid sharh vol8p11; ibn sa'd, al-tabaqat vol3p296-7

He also introduced bidha to the pure islam of the prophet--some of which I have stated in the second part of the article

---NOW HOW COULD AlI term him as a rightly guided caliph and fit to rule

Below is the more logical and true statement of Ali

O migrants,do not remove from the family of the messenger of God,the government that he himself founded,and do not transfer it to YOUR OWN HOUSEHOLDS,I swear by God that we,the people of the house are FITTER For this task than anyone else.there are amongst us persons who have COMPLETE coMPREHENSION of the concept of the koran,who are fully aware of the roots and branches of religion and acquainted with the SUNNAH of the messenger of GOD,and who are capable of administrating the islamic society,it is they who can prevent occurrence of corruption and divide the spoils of war justly among the muslims--as long as such persons exists and they are found only in the family of the prophet---other HAVE NO LEGITIMATE CLAIM--bEWARE OF YoUR WISHES AND DESIRES LEST YOU GO ASTRAY AND FALL INTO MISGUIDANCE,TURNING AWAY FROM JUSTICE AND TRUTH---al-tabarsi,al-Ihtijaj vol1p96


More to come in sha ALLAH

In continuation@ sino

Imam ali asked abu bakr---what are the qualities of a leader?

He(abu bakr) answered---a desire for the peoples welfare,faithfullness,justice and equity in his conducts,a knowledge of the koran,the sunnah and the principles of judgment---et cetera et cetera

Ali thereupon remarked "further qualities are primacy in embracing islam and being related to the messenger of GOd" abu bakr responded in affirmation----ali then asked--abu bakr "tell me by God,do you see these qualities in yourself or in ME? He(abu bakr) answered "all that I have mentioned is to be found in you-tarikh al-tabari vol1p5

Umar also recounted to ibn abbas----i swear by God that if your friend(ali) assumes the caliphate,he will cause the people to act in accordance with the book of God and the sunnah of the messenger and will lead them aright--ibn abi'l-hadid sharh vol3p107

---indeed Ali is the chosen one--of whom the prophet(s) said----for whomsoever I was his master Ali is now his master

O God love who-so-ever Loves Ali and be enemy to who-so-ever is Ali's enemy-musnad Ahmad b. Hanbal vol1p118-9 ,al hakim, al-mustadrak vol3p109,ibn kathir al-bidayah5p209-13

--O God aid who-so-ever aids him and humble his enemies--ibn kathir vol5p212 ,,ahmad hanbal vol1p119

--O GOd make him the pivot of truth--ibn kathir vol5p298,al hakim vol3p109 ,al tafsir al kabir vol12p50,al tirmidhi vol2p297

carinmom:

Let me ask you this, do you know Husainiyya Bakiyyatullah in Zaria?

Your example is like a non-Muslim who based his submissions about Islam (as a religion) on the acts of some Muslims.
Your initial assessment about Mut'ah was allegations on "set of condom" that littered the "whole street of Zaria" when Zakyzaky's movement walked their Ar'baeen. What is Mut'ah itself; argument for and against, you don't know and seem not care untill your eyes were opened to the reality that ALL Sahabah used to performed it AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET until Umar banned it in the case of Amr ibn Hurayth, a Sahabi.

Here you are trying to add more by asking about Zakyzaky's Husseiniyah. I'm sorry I learnt through the hardest way. I don't discuss what I don't 100% sure of. Learn from Zina's jurisprudence. FOUR JUST EYE WITNESSES are required before judgment can be passed. You don't base your evidence on "am sure that was what happened". Or "The person who told is trustworthy" etc.

Shi'ism as an ideology is different from Shia as follower of that ideological beliefs just like Islam could be different from muslim. Albaqir ONLY discuss Shi'ism and not credibility of its followers

Salam

AlBaqir:


Your example is like a non-Muslim who based his submissions about Islam (as a religion) on the acts of some Muslims.
Your initial assessment about Mut'ah was allegations on "set of condom" that littered the "whole street of Zaria" when Zakyzaky's movement walked their Ar'baeen. What is Mut'ah itself; argument for and against, you don't know and seem not care untill your eyes were opened to the reality that ALL Sahabah used to performed it AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET until Umar banned it in the case of Amr ibn Hurayth, a Sahabi.

Here you are trying to add more by asking about Zakyzaky's Husseiniyah. I'm sorry I learnt through the hardest way. I don't discuss what I don't 100% sure of. Learn from Zina's jurisprudence. FOUR JUST EYE WITNESSES are required before judgment can be passed. You don't base your evidence on "am sure that was what happened". Or "The person who told is trustworthy" etc.

Shi'ism as an ideology is different from Shia as follower of that ideological beliefs just like Islam could be different from muslim. Albaqir ONLY discuss Shi'ism and not credibility of its followers

Salam

gbam!!!!!

AlBaqir:


Your example is like a non-Muslim who based his submissions about Islam (as a religion) on the acts of some Muslims.
Your initial assessment about Mut'ah was allegations on "set of condom" that littered the "whole street of Zaria" when Zakyzaky's movement walked their Ar'baeen. What is Mut'ah itself; argument for and against, you don't know and seem not care untill your eyes were opened to the reality that ALL Sahabah used to performed it AFTER THE DEATH OF THE PROPHET until Umar banned it in the case of Amr ibn Hurayth, a Sahabi.

Here you are trying to add more by asking about Zakyzaky's Husseiniyah. I'm sorry I learnt through the hardest way. I don't discuss what I don't 100% sure of. Learn from Zina's jurisprudence. FOUR JUST EYE WITNESSES are required before judgment can be passed. You don't base your evidence on "am sure that was what happened". Or "The person who told is trustworthy" etc.

Shi'ism as an ideology is different from Shia as follower of that ideological beliefs just like Islam could be different from muslim. Albaqir ONLY discuss Shi'ism and not credibility of its followers

Salam

If what you have posted is anything to go by, then its safe to say that your brand of shiism is different from that of El Zakzakiy. But I used to think that he was your leader, may be i was wrong.

carinmom:


If what you have posted is anything to go by, then its safe to say that your brand of shiism is different from that of El Zakzakiy. But I used to think that he was your leader, may be i was wrong.

Just like Saud Monarch is assumed to be leader of Muslim world.

# First, I am a Yoruba man. Never been to the north not to mention of meeting Zakyzaky.

# Second, in the north alone, it is not all Shia that are under the leadership of Sheik Zakyzaky. They have factions due to social, political, ideological and ethnic reasons. It is unfortunate that "leader" is defined politically in this part of the world.

# Third, just like tribal and political differences have differentiate Hausa Muslims from Yoruba Muslims etc, so is every factions (Sunni, Shia, Sufi etc) of Islam.

# Fourth, like I said before, I like discussing Shi'ism as an ideology rather than individual as a follower. Often time Muslims speak aloud not to judge Islam by their misconduct. And nobody cares to applaud Islam through good conduct of Muslims.

Lastly, as per Sheik Zakyzaky, he's being around more than 30years. What happened to him and his movement can surely happen to any Muslim group/movement. Sheik Zakyzaky's predicament is 100% political but the shameless Salafiyah/wahabiyah ideologist promote the case to be sectarian in nature.

Here's my thread on the event if you care to read:
https://www.nairaland.com/2798282/humble-opinion-recent-muslim-shii