Scholar8200:
Then adjust your Quran accordingly because as long as his name is mentioned as a faithful disciple, you will always meet with this contradiction!

Interesting! So, what about the Epistles he authored? Besides, aside from the Bible, we have enough in history to determine who Peter was and what he believed and taught! What then?
While your Quran still commends him?
Now, why was Peter killed the way he was killed?

Still irrelevant to me. You really trying hard to catch. How Peter was killed and why still not relevant to me. Isnt the same Bible recorded Peter's betrayal of Jesus at the time of arrest or crucifixion?

Scholar8200:
So explain Peter's 'original understanding of the meaning of sonship'' and back your explanation with references so you dont end up putting your opinions in his mouth. Besides, did Allah speak of explanation or just titles when all that use/believe that were condemned?

This is actually your job not me. First all, for Peter or any other disciples mentioned in the Bible to be accepted by Muslims, their message/teachings must be in harmony with what Jesus preached. And what Jesus preached according to Quran, is aided by the Bible to certain extent which Quran also ascertains that his true disciples held on to. If extant Bible is saying something different or mixes teachings, then, we reject it. Jesus message is very clear as day light

Empiree:
Still irrelevant to me. You really trying hard to catch. How Peter was killed and why still not relevant to me. Isnt the same Bible recorded Peter's betrayal of Jesus at the time of arrest or crucifixion?

Sure and it also records that he was restored when Jesus ,after resurrection, said to him to take care of His younger followers.

Okay, thankfully, the history of who Peter was and what he stood for is relatively closer than the almost difficult to verify ones of Samiri etc My actual question now is why would the Quran commend Peter and the 11 while also condemning those who believe and teach what Peter believed and taught?
And while you try to hide under claims(Peter did not say that) what about history?

Here you have aramaic translation of Matthew 16 see vs 16
http://biblehub.com/aramaic-english-gospels/matthew/16.htm

Scholar8200:
Sure and it also records that he was restored when Jesus ,after resurrection, said to him to take care of His younger followers.

Okay, thankfully, the history of who Peter was and what he stood for is relatively closer than the almost difficult to verify ones of Samiri etc My actual question now is why would the Quran commend Peter and the 11 while also condemning those who believe and teach what Peter believed and taught?
And while you try to hide under claims(Peter did not say that) what about history?

Here you have aramaic translation of Matthew 16 see vs 16
http://biblehub.com/aramaic-english-gospels/matthew/16.htm

You keep mixing stuff to soothe you. Well, underlined, where in the Quran is praises "Peter" and which verse of Quran is that?. Want to know. I am nt here to defend Peter. I dont know him. I am here to defend Hawariyun, disciples, who truthfully grasped Jesus' teaching and taught it.

"The disciples were continually learning. They didn't have it all together and they didn't truly understand everything Jesus said or tried to teach them. They saw him calm a storm and raise the dead to life again. They even were given power to heal the sick and cast out demons, but we're limited by their lack of faith on occasion. Peter figured out Jesus was the Christ, the son of the Living God, but then he denied knowing Him. It wasn't until after the resurrection did the disciples eventually come to know who Jesus really was. Thomas got it right fairly quickly at least in word when he exclaimed "My Lord and my God". ~ Anonymous

[size=15pt]HAWARIYUN:[/size] The Disciples Of Jesus


The Quran refers to those few people who had brought faith upon Jesus, followed him, supported him and helped him as the Hawa`riyun. These were the disciples of Jesus. This name, Hawa`riyun is especially employed for those people who followed Jesus and helped him and not for the followers of any other Prophets, although every Prophet has a Hawari (‘sincere companion’) says the Prophet Muhammad in the following Hadith:

"Every Prophet has a Hawari (sincere companion), and my Hawari is Zubair"

The Definition of Hawariyun

Literally, the word Hawariyun is the plural of Hawariyun which means "He who whitens clothes", "He who has been appointed chosen and purified from all kinds of defects", "a companion and a helper".

The exegetes have derived it from the root word Hawr, which possess the following definitions: to whiten, to bleach, to purify, to clean, to change, to transform, to amend and to alter, etc.

Different opinions have been given by the Mufassirs as to why the followers of Isa (Jesus) were given this title:

Imam Ibn Kathir (d.774/1352) has stated, "The Helpers of Jesus have been named Hawariyun because of their white clothes.” According to Ibn Kathir ‘Hawari’ in Arabic means ‘support’.

Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani has stated from Sufyan Sawri that he has said, "Hawari means a helper"

Qatadah (d.117/695) has said that, "It carries the definition of he who is capable of being a Caliphate (Caliph or Minister)."




Yunus ibn Habib has mentioned that Hawari is a ‘sincere person’ and Ibn Al-Kalbi has defined it as meaning ‘a friend’.

The Hawariyun in the Light of the Quran

The Quran has addressed the disciples of Jesus as Hawariyun, five times in four different verses.

"When Jesus found disbelief on their part, he said, "Who will be my helpers in the work of Allah?" The Hawariyun (disciples) replied, "We are Allah’s helpers, we believe in Allah and you bear witness that we are Muslims." (Surah 3, Verse 52)

A similar statement from the disciples has been recorded in the chapter entitled "Rows", verse fourteen as follows:

"O ye who believe! Be the helpers of Allah as Jesus, the Son of Maryam (Mary) said to the Hawariyun, "Who will be my helpers in the work of Allah?" The Hawariyun said, "We are helpers of Allah." Then a portion of the children of Israel believed and a portion disbelieved, but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, so that they became the ones that prevailed." (Surah 61, Verse 14)

The Hawariyun, disciples, have been praised exceptionally and promised to be given superiority in the following verse of the Quran as well:

‘Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you of the falsehoods and of those who blaspheme. I will make those who follow you, superior to those who reject faith, to the day of resurrection. Then you shall return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute." (Surah 3, Verse 55)

THE NAMES OF THE HAWARIYUN

Imam Qurtubi mentions that, the Hawariyun were twelve in number, but he does not give their names, except the name of the leader of the Hawariyun as Sham’oon (Simon Peter or Cephas) in the miracle of the ascension of the table, saying,

"Sham’oon, the leader of the disciples, asked, "Is this food that of paradise or the food of this world?" Jesus’ reply was, "This is food specially created for you, it is neither from paradise or this world. Allah said to it, "BE," and so it was."

The disciples of Jesus (including Sham’oon known more popularly as Simon Peter) who were living after the ascension of Isa (Jesus) are held to be respectable and honest by the Muslims. They are not, however considered to be Prophets. They were ordinary human beings and not free from human errors. Their teachings and their statements have lost validity through the absence of authenticated historical verification. Contradictory Names Of Jesus’ Disciples in the Bible

[Matt 10:2] Matthew gives the names of the disciples of Jesus. [Luke 6:13] But Luke mentions two names, which are different from those, recorded in Matthew.

One among the disciples, Judas Iscariot (son of Simon Iscariot) was the treasurer or keeper of money and had been entrusted this role by Jesus. He later betrayed Jesus for it is said, thirty pieces of silver, and died soon afterwards. He is also said to have helped himself to some of the money he was responsible for whilst still a disciple.

http://islamicglobalhistory..com/2009/02/hawariyun.html

It is stated in Matthew that Simon the Cananean was a disciple, whereas in Luke Simon the Zealot is mentioned. In addition, Matthew states Labaous called Thaddeus to be a disciple, but Luke makes no mention of this name, rather Judas the son of James is stated instead.

Commentators generally hold Hawari (Disciple) as a derivative of ‘Hoor’, which means the Whiteness of cloth. A Washerman is called Hawari, and ‘Hawariyoon’ is its plural. When a cloth is whitened after washing, the Arabs have a special word for it.

In the perspective of this meaning, the disciples of Hazrat Isa (AS) are known as Hawari either because most of them were Washermen and Fishermen. Also researchers say, it could be because of the fact that as a Washerman whitens a cloth through washing, similarly these disciples would illuminate the hearts of the people through the teachings of Hazrat Isa (AS).

Hawari also means ‘Helper’ and ‘Advisor’. Abdul Wahab Najjar says that the disciples of Hazrat Isa being called Hawari, is not without reasoning, but is based on the fact that its origin is ‘Haboor’, a Hebrew word meaning ‘disciple’ and its plural is ‘Haboorium’, which changed into Hawari and ‘Hawaree’n’ in the Arabic language.

“Who will be my helper in Allah’s Cause?”
(Surah 3, Verse 52, Speech by Jesus)

Mujahid commented this means ‘Who would follow me to Allah? [Ibn Abi Hatim] however it appears that Isa (AS) was asking, ‘Who would help me convey the Message of Allah?’ [Propagate, spread and share the responsibility of Dawah to the people]

Some of the Children of Israel did believe in Isa (AS) and agreed to give him their aid and support and followed the light that was sent with him.

In return Allah has recorded their response in the Qur’an for all future generations to see the covenant and agreement between them.

“The Al-Hawariyun said: ‘We are the Helpers of Allah; We believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims. Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger; so write us down among those who bear witness.”
(Qur’an, Declaration by the Disciples of Jesus of their religious beliefs to Allah)

The Verses speak of the Hawariyyun addressing Allah directly five times and Jesus, their immediate teacher, only once. The first statement refers to helping and assisting Allah’s Representative (Jesus), the second is an affirmation they profess to believe in Allah and are Muslims.

The third is an acceptance of acknowledging the truth, legitimacy, final authority and validity of the scripture sent to Jesus by the Hawariyyun. The fourth is the most explicit reference to Jesus, albeit without naming him specifically or mentioning his more prestigious titles of Messiah, Son of Man etc.

The last is a request to Allah to accept them as true believers and witnesses in their allegiance to Islam as a recorded fact written down for all to see that they have fulfilled their duty and did what they were asked.

The Hawariyun also refer to Jesus [indirectly] as ‘The Messenger’, as someone whom they follow. In the above verses they are not invoking Jesus as an intermediary between them and Allah, they approached Allah directly.

“We are Allah’s Helpers” also means ‘We will support you with the Message you have been sent with and will help you convey it. Isa (AS) later sent the disciples to the various areas of Ash-Sham to call the Greeks and the Israelites to Islam. (Ibn Katheer)

It is thought although Jesus had many followers, he selected twelve among them to be his special team of official disciples. It seems they twelve most important disciples were given the title of ‘apostles’.

http://islamicglobalhistory..com/2009/02/hawariyun.html

The disciples were however, not lawgivers and prophets as the title is strictly defined and officially means. The Bible and other historical sources also speak of seventy-two unofficial students and disciples in addition to the twelve.

On the Day of Decision, Allah is to remind Jesus of His Special Favours and Divine Support and Assistance to him as a Judge in His Courtroom [Surah 5, Verses 110-120].

One gift among the special honours was the supply of loyal, sincere and diligent disciples and companions for him, while he was a Messenger of Allah among them (during his first ministry in Israel before ascension to the Heavens). In the Ayah-

“And when I (Allah) Awhaytu Al-Hawariyyin to believe in Me and My Messenger.”

Awhaytu here means ‘inspired’. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said about the Hawariyun “Allah Inspired them.” As-Suddi said, “He [Allah] put in their hearts.”

When Isa (AS) returns, his second ministry will commence but his immediate and later companions and followers of that period will not share the same position, reward and outstanding honour as the original disciples of his first ministry, nor will they be included among them as the Hawariyyin or Nasara.

Isa (AS) himself once he returns to Earth retains the [Honorific] Office of Apostleship, but only to the Children of Israel of his first ministry and for the period up to and until, the start of his successor’s reign (a total of six hundred years) as Divine Representative and Lawgiver.

Isa (AS) is not then, an Apostle to any one after or since the beginning of the Messengership of Muhammad (SAW), his successor and last Prophet of Islam to the World from the Seventh Century until the Day of Decision.

On the Day of Decision, Allah will decide the destiny of the multitude of human beings alone without the use or need of Judges. The assemblage of Apostles will with His Divine Permission intercede for their respective nations and communities as well as for those who profess to believe in their Constitutions and Divine Messages.

The Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as the last Apostle is responsible to represent, defend, intercede and in specific instances acquit all true believers from and since the Seventh Century for permanent entry into the Kingdom of God.

THE NASARA

“When Isa (AS) was sent, the Children of Israel were required to follow and obey him. The followers of Isa (AS) and his companions are called ‘An-Nasara’, because they gave aid and support to each other. They are also called ‘Ansar’, (Helpers)”.
(Tafseer Ibn Katheer)

It was said that they were called ‘Nasara’, because they inhabited a land called ‘An-Nasirah’ (Nazareth), as Qatadah, Ibn Juraij and Ibn Abbas were reported to have said.”
(Tafseer Ibn Katheer)

The singular form of Nasara is ‘Nasrani’ and although both are used in the Qur’an, neither belongs to the Arabic language at the time of Revelation and are such older Non Arabic words.

The equivalent of Nasara in the Arabic of the Qur’an is Ansar. The verb of Ansar is Nasara, which means ‘supported, aided, helped, sided with etc. Ansar likewise means ‘supporters.

The term Ansar occurs in the context of calling the true followers of Isa (AS) the Ansar of Isa (AS) on the way to Allah, which means ultimately the supporters of Allah to Whom Isa (AS), was calling and inviting to embrace Islam.

The plural of Ansar being Ansarullah (Helpers of Allah), was also applied to the residents of Madina who pledged and gave support to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when he arrived in the City.

Additionally, Jesus, Son of Mary (Isa Ibn Maryam) and Jesus the Messiah (Isa Al-Masih), his official titles divinely passed down from God later became simply ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ and ‘Son of David’, which actually diminishes his rank, responsibility, official role, special honour and significance in comparison.

Only where someone has no other depiction, name or title does the area in which they live become relevant to state they are residents of that location or the other, but where an official designation already exists no such ascription is necessary or desired.

However, historians add the word Nasara is not and never was derived from Nazareth, the area Isa (AS) is said to have been from. The word ‘Nazarenes’ referred to the early Christians decades after Isa (AS).

It never referred to the residents of the town of Nazareth in Galilee. Christian historians add Mary’s home town [Nazareth] was then a small village situated in a high valley among the southern hills of the Lebanon Range.

The name itself means ‘Watch-tower’, possibly they say because it was above the crossroads of major north-south and east-west roads.

The town was not in fact then known as Nazareth and is not mentioned at all in the Old Testament, maps of the area/s or historical sources and original documents relevant to the land in general.

Some sources suggest and infer it may have been little more than a village at the time of Mary, however outside the Christian scholarship of history the name does not exist anywhere.

The word Nasara was already in use by the time the Gospels were written and similarly the same word was used by Arabs to describe the Christians even before the Qur’an was revealed.

The common people did however not know the meaning, relevance, ascription, context or etymology of the word. To them, unlike later generations, the words meant nothing more than whom it referred to.

A similar term however ‘Nazirite’ existed and occurs in the Old Testament (Judges 13-14), but it referred to someone who was dedicated to God for a distinctive purpose and sometimes this was for a specific period of time. Each Nazirite would take a special vow to serve God for the period they would be allocated this responsibility.

The word ‘Nazirite’ itself came from the Hebrew word meaning ‘separated’ or ‘consecrated’. Nazirites were themselves forbidden to cut their hair or drink alcohol. They also had to avoid all contact with dead bodies [including if it is that of their mother, father, brother or sister] so that their bodies remained pure.

Some Nazirites were dedicated to God from birth and groomed for the role. In the time of Moses [Numbers 6: 1-21] each Nazirite was in addition to avoid the above also abstained from drinking any kind of drink made from grapes, eat any grapes or raisins or anything that comes from grapevines and included the seeds or skins of grapes.

One of the most famous ‘Nazirites’ was Samson the Israelite, who according to the Bible was chosen by God to become a Nazirite for life, instead of a short period of time. He was born to a previously ‘childless couple’ [note the similarity with John the Baptist, Yahya (AS)] and like the Messenger of Allah, Ilyas, was once fed by birds on Allah’s orders when all other means of food and subsistence were unavailable.

The stories he had weak resistance to women is not accepted by Muslims and the episode where he stayed for a time in a harlot’s residence is similarly explained in hiding from his enemies and nothing else, the fact that the host was a harlot is a coincidence.

The Twelve Disciples themselves

Simon, (Sha’moon) leader of the distinguished disciples and one of the closest to Jesus, was a fisherman before becoming a believer. He is said to have been re-named Peter [or Petros in Greek] (meaning Rock or Stone) by Jesus.

After the ascension of the Messiah, Simon is said to have been briefly imprisoned (where he was rescued by an angel) and he later travelled to Rome where he became the first Pope (42-67). He is said to have died there, hence Rome became the centre of the new religion.

Andrew: The brother of Simon the leader was also a fisherman and became a believer along with his brother Simon. He is known allegedly for introducing people to Jesus and is said to have been originally a disciple of John the Baptist before joining Jesus.

James and John, sons of Zebedee: These two were also fisherman and may have worked alongside Simon and Andrew. They are said to have become believers at the same time as Simon and Andrew.

Jesus gave the two brothers the title ‘Sons of Thunder’ due to their impulsive natures. Their mother, Salome, was also a disciple, though not one of the twelve, like her sons were.

James is also said to have been the first of the disciples to die for his faith. He was beheaded on the orders of King Herod Agrippa. John, the younger of the two, meanwhile is said to have been the only disciple to be present at the crucifixion and the first to see the empty tomb.

He is also referred to in the New Testament as the disciple ‘whom Jesus loved’ and is still traditionally believed to be the author of the Gospel according to John. He is said to have been killed by the Jews between 60 and 70 CE.

Matthew: Originally known as Levi, he was a tax collector employed by the Romans. He is said to have worked in and around Capernaum. He is said to have been visited and approached by Jesus while he was working and collecting taxes from people. One source says that he was martyred through decapitation.
http://islamicglobalhistory..com/2009/02/hawariyun.html

Thomas: Known also as ‘Doubting Thomas’ he is known only for doubting the resurrection of Jesus and refused to believe Jesus was still alive. He is said to have not been with the other disciples when Jesus is alleged to have re-appeared after the crucifixion on the first Easter Day.

He is then said to have wanted to feel the bones and flesh of Jesus to ensure he was not actually a ghost or a spirit. A week later, Jesus appeared to him as well and Thomas got his wish. In John’s Gospel, he is known as ‘Didymus’ meaning twin in Greek.

Simon the Zealot: He is chiefly known as a member of a group or religious sect who stirred up a rebellion against the Romans after the ascension of Jesus and were known as the ‘Zealots’.

Judas Iscariot: The son of Simon Iscariot. A treasurer for the disciples who is thought to have frequently stole 110th of the money for his own use. It is said later the one who betrayed Jesus to the Romans for thirty pieces of silver. He was also the only disciple not to be a native of Galilee.

Philip: He is said to have come from Bethsaida and introduced Bartholomew to Jesus.

Bartholomew: He is also known as Nathanael and was from Cana, now known as Kfar Kanna.

Judas: The son of James and also known as Thaddeus or Labaous.

James: Son of Alphaeus. Also known as ‘James the Younger’.

The three who were closest to Jesus were Simon Peter, James and John. Although Jesus is alleged to have been native to Nazareth, most of the events described in the first three Gospels occur in Capernaum, further north near Lake Galilee and the River Jordan close to Bethsaida in Phoenicia. Bethsaida then, was one of nine large settlements around the lake.

The twelve all known as ‘apostles’ (meaning ‘messenger’) were leaders in their own right, taught both privately by the Messiah and among crowds. All were sent out to preach to various places and teach others themselves and were expected to spread his message to the people. At first, the title ‘saint’ was used exclusively in describing them alone.

According to Syed Abul Ala Mawdudi, the word ‘Hawari’ means almost the same as ‘Ansar’ in the Islamic tradition. They were also called both ‘Ansar’ and ‘Muslims’ in the Qur’an and requested to be accepted as Muslims.

‘And when I (Allah) put in the hearts of the disciples (of Jesus) to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: ‘We believe and bear witness that we are Muslims.’
(Surah 5: 11)

In the Bible, the usual terms are ‘apostles’ and ‘disciples’. Jesus’ chosen disciples were called ‘apostles’ in the sense that they had been entrusted with a mission by him (Jesus the Messiah) rather than in the sense of having been entrusted with a mission by Allah (in which case they would have been prophets themselves). They were thus Divine Representatives of Jesus and not Prophetic Representatives of God.

Other Famous Disciples

Jesus is also said to have had seventy-two other close followers whom he once sent out to recruit people. Out of these only one is actually known whilst others still who might possibly never have seen or met Jesus are also accorded the status of disciples.

Barnabas: Originally known as Joseph, he was re-named Barnabas meaning ‘Son of Encouragement, Son of Consolation and Son of Exhortation’ by the twelve disciples. He is the only known member of the seventy-two other disciples of Jesus and was a once friend of Paul of Tarsus. He introduced Paul of Tarsus to the twelve disciples and persuaded them to accept him despite their reservations.

He was also either the uncle or cousin of John Mark, the alleged author of ‘The Gospel according to Mark’, one of the four official [canonical] gospels accepted as part of the New Testament.

Women Disciples-

Mary Magdalene, Salome and Mary (mother of James): These three took spices to anoint the body of Jesus after the crucifixion.

Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Suzanna: Nothing is known of them.

Stephen: He never met Jesus, but was nonetheless an early convert and a disciple of the disciples. He was ordered to be stoned by the Romans; one of those present who approved of it was, according to the Bible, Paul of Tarsus.

James, the brother of Jesus: He was neither the blood brother or foster brother of the Messiah Jesus nor was he known to be a disciple, actual affiliated follower or disciple of disciples. He is said to have opposed Jesus in his lifetime, according to the Christians and thought of him as mad, only after his ascension did he believe in the Messiah.

The word ‘brother’ in his time referred to close family relatives such as cousins, hence it is plausible to suggest he was a close relation of Jesus, through the latter’s mother’s side, and was thus referred to as ‘his brother’ or the ‘brother of Jesus’.

According to Christian clergymen and historians, he was the leader of the Christians after Jesus ascended, he is known to have held the assemblage of believers together and was killed by the High Priest, Ananas in 62 CE.

The Nazarenes

The followers of Jesus after he ascended were called ‘Nazarenes’ by others. They did not believe Jesus was a divine or supernatural being. They accepted and embraced him as the Messiah, believed in his return to Earth.

The Nazarenes observed the Sabbath, practiced circumcision, did not eat the forbidden foods, fasted, forbade interest, continued the practices of Jesus and strictly observed the Mosaic Law.

After attempting to reach an understanding with Paul, the Nazarenes under Simon Peter and James ‘the brother of Jesus’ and Head of the Jerusalem Church, distanced themselves from him and broke irrevocably with him and disowned him.

Later the same people were called ‘Ebionites’. They had changed nor altered anything, their opponents chose to separate the first group of followers of Jesus, the original and first Nazarenes, with this group of Nazarenes, their successors who came a generation or more after them.

The Ebionites were declared heretics and stigmatised by the Church for refusing to see Jesus as divine and for not attacking Paul as the inventor of Christianity and as an adventurer seeking glory for himself.

In some ways the Ebionites were like the Essenes, a Jewish sect that had broken away from Judaism in general and opted out of Jewish society altogether by living in the mountains, the hills and secluded areas away from the towns and cities and founded their own monasteries and institutions.

It’s suspected the Essenes had first broken away over the issue of too much concentration of power in the hands of the High Priest; a position officiated by secular figures with a view of preserving foreign control over the Israelites.


http://islamicglobalhistory..com/2009/02/hawariyun.html

Empiree:
You keep mixing stuff to soothe you. Well, underlined, where in the Quran is praises "Peter" and which verse of Quran is that?. Want to know. I am nt here to defend Peter. I dont know him. I am here to defend Hawariyun, disciples, who truthfully grasped Jesus' teaching and taught it.

Here is a quote from the thread you directed me to:

Re: Jesus Disciples by ayenny02(m): 3:56pm On May 29, 2013
The Quran refers to those few people who had brought faith upon Jesus, followed him, supported him and helped him as the Hawa`riyun. These were the disciples of Jesus.

This name, Hawa`riyun is especially employed for those people who followed Jesus and helped him and not for the followers of any other Prophets, although every Prophet has a Hawari (‘sincere companion’) says the Prophet Muhammad in the following Hadith:

"Every Prophet has a Hawari (sincere companion), and my Hawari is Zubair"

The Definition of Hawariyun

Literally, the word Hawariyun is the plural of Hawariyun which means "He who whitens clothes", "He who has been appointed chosen and purified from all kinds of defects", "a companion and a helper

THE NAMES OF THE HAWARIYUN

Imam Qurtubi mentions that, the Hawariyun were twelve in number, but he does not give their names, except the name of the leader of the Hawariyun as Sham’oon (Simon Peter or Cephas) in the miracle of the ascension of the table, saying,

"Sham’oon, the leader of the disciples, asked, "Is this food that of paradise or the food of this world?" Jesus’ reply was, "This is food specially created for you, it is neither from paradise or this world. Allah said to it, "BE," and so it was.

Now I noticed the person quotes an Imam not the Quran. However, Muslim exegesis establishes that the disciple included: Peter, etc

The Qur'anic account of the disciples (Arabic: الحواريون‎ al-ḥawāriyyūn) of Jesus does not include their names, numbers, or any detailed accounts of their lives. Muslim exegesis, however, more-or-less agrees with the New Testament list and says that the disciples included Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, James, Jude, John and Simon the Zealot.[1]
Wikipedia


The Hawariyun, disciples, have been praised exceptionally and promised to be given superiority in the following verse of the Quran as well:

‘Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you of the falsehoods and of those who blaspheme. I will make those who follow you, superior to those who reject faith, to the day of resurrection. Then you shall return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute." (Surah 3, Verse 55)
http://islamicglobalhistory..com.ng/2009/02/hawariyun.html

The foregoing establishes that Peter, among others, was one of the hawariyun recognised, he and the others were promised honour in the Quran, and history/the Bible reveals that he and they believed and taught that which you say is the unforgivable sin.

Do you agree with the Imam, the blog and the authors of the exegesis thus stated?

Empiree:


Barnabas: Originally known as Joseph, he was re-named Barnabas meaning ‘Son of Encouragement, Son of Consolation and Son of Exhortation’ by the twelve disciples. He is the only known member of the seventy-two other disciples of Jesus and was a once friend of Paul of Tarsus. He introduced Paul of Tarsus to the twelve disciples and persuaded them to accept him despite their reservations.

Seen

The Nazarenes

The followers of Jesus after he ascended were called ‘Nazarenes’ by others. [size=15pt]They did not believe Jesus was a divine or supernatural being. They accepted and embraced him as the Messiah, believed in his return to Earth.[/size]GOSH!!!!

The Nazarenes observed the Sabbath, practiced circumcision, did not eat the forbidden foods, fasted, forbade interest, continued the practices of Jesus and strictly observed the Mosaic Law.

After attempting to reach an understanding with Paul, the Nazarenes under Simon Peter and James ‘the brother of Jesus’ and Head of the Jerusalem Church, distanced themselves from him and broke irrevocably with him and disowned him.

1. If Simon Peter was a Nazarene with these beliefs then what went wrong when he wrote 1 & 2 Peter

2. If Peter and the other Apostles disowned Paul then why did Peter say this:

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him
2 Peter 3:15


Here Peter was writing to Gentile believers that Paul had evangelised; the Nazarenes were Jewish believers who held to their judaismic background and were based in Jerusalem. Also they were not the audience of the letter written in Acts 15.

And if they disowned Paul, why was Paul in Jerusalem, of all places, accused as the ringleader:'

"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect
Acts 24:5

Now concerning the Nazarenes, this much is said by wikipedia showing that your source doctored history to suit his/her blog:

Nazarene beliefs[edit]
The beliefs of the Nazarene sect or sects are described through various church fathers and heresiologists.

in Jesus as Messiah:
The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.

— Jerome, On. Is. 8:14
in the Virgin Birth:
They believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.
[size=14pt]
— Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine
in Jesus as the Son of God:
[/size]Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” and “for he shall be called a Nazarene.”
[/quote] Matthew/Levi wrote the Gospel account to these Nazarenes, using the Hebrew language and here you have it black and white:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/matthew/16.html(look out for vs 16-19)
and
http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/Hebrew%20Gospel%20of%20MATTHEW%20by%20George%20Howard%20-%20Part%20One.pdf

So were the hawariyun the disciples known as Nasara commended in the Quran?

babafemi1000:


Okay, so it wasn't God who required his blood.

But then, to establish a covenant, there needs to be a shedding of blood. Jesus' blood was shed in this case.

If it wasn't God who required it, who then?

The devil? (As is in your first explanation to me about ransom:

"He laid down his life for his sheep to be free from the devil"

Have you forgotten what Jesus said.
If you had known what this means: ' I want mercy and not sacrifice ,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Matt 12:7.
God desires mercy and not sacrifice,not even the blood of Jesus.
Yes,He laid down His life to die so that He can deliver us from the devil. You know Adam gave this world to the devil,whereby relinquishing all powers of the earth to the devil. After Jesus resurrected,He said
Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Matt 28:18.
Jesus came to this earth to establish the kingdom (will,rulership) of God on this earth.
Jesus also said,
I tell you the solemn truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it produces much grain.
John 12:24.

Scholar8200:
Here is a quote from the thread you directed me to:


Now I noticed the person quotes an Imam not the Quran. However, Muslim exegesis establishes that the disciple included: Peter, etc

The Qur'anic account of the disciples (Arabic: الحواريون‎ al-ḥawāriyyūn) of Jesus does not include their names, numbers, or any detailed accounts of their lives. Muslim exegesis, however, more-or-less agrees with the New Testament list and says that the disciples included Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, James, Jude, John and Simon the Zealot.[1]
Wikipedia


The Hawariyun, disciples, have been praised exceptionally and promised to be given superiority in the following verse of the Quran as well:

‘Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you of the falsehoods and of those who blaspheme. I will make those who follow you, superior to those who reject faith, to the day of resurrection. Then you shall return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute." (Surah 3, Verse 55)
http://islamicglobalhistory..com.ng/2009/02/hawariyun.html

The foregoing establishes that Peter, among others, was one of the hawariyun recognised, he and the others were promised honour in the Quran, and history/the Bible reveals that he and they believed and taught that which you say is the unforgivable sin.

Do you agree with the Imam, the blog and the authors of the exegesis thus stated?

See, I understand what you trying to do. It doesn't bother me for a second. When it comes to who those disciples of Jesus are, since Quran does not mentioned their names, it becomes a matter of fiqh (jurisdiction). Fiqh does not from Allah. It is rather scholarly opinion which varies widely. Which means scholars may agree and disagree on a subject. It is clear that not many Muslim scholars support opinion of Imam Qurtubi because anytime I searched internet for "who are disciples of Jesus", it is always come under same Imam which means it is his only opinion. If his opinion/claim is valid, we would have seen many scholars of Islam saying the same thing. Here you quoted one Imam and asked me if I agree with him?. You so funny.

First, Islamic scholars do not make it incumbent upon any Muslims to establish Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, James, Jude, John and Simon the Zealot as disciples. You gleaned this from wikipedia which has no authority in Islam. Wikipedia is editable. Now, instead of arguing over whether those 12 people named above are truly the disciples, the only way for Muslims to confirm that is by looking in to their teachings which MUST conform with teachings of Jesus for them to be accepted by Muslims. And they also must not contradict each other.

For the sake of this thread, if we have to assume those people are truly the disciples, what gives you 100% assurance that their teachings arent corrupted like they did to Jesus?. And if you insist they are the true disciples, then, they should have defined "begotten son" which you are unable to figure out. Remember that Jesus as you called him today is not his real name. Therefore, he has no idea what Jesus is. Likewise, those 12 disciples mentioned above, I am 100% certain those are not their original names. If their names could be corrupted, why cant their teachings?. I came across a hadith which appears to mention just one of the names of the disciples that doesn't even appear in the list above. Be truthful one second, it is the English speaking Bible writers who gave those names above.

Here is the hadith i came about and it made no mentioned of any of the names on the list up there. Read below

Abu Ja‘far (‘a) said, “The foremost are four: the murdered son of Adam, the foremost of the community of Moses, who was a believer among the Pharaoh’s people, [size=13pt]the foremost of the community of Jesus, who was Habib the carpenter,[/size] and the foremost of the community of Muhammad, who was ‘Ali ibn Abu Tàlib (‘a).” (Bihàr, 66, 156)

It says Habib the carpenter was one of the disciples. So you can see that it is not mandatory for Muslims to believe Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, etc are disciples. That's from christian sources. To be fair, we can only accept their teachings that are in harmony with Islam and true teachings of Jesus as taught by Quran. Nothing more.

Scholar8200:
Seen




1. If Simon Peter was a Nazarene with these beliefs then what went wrong when he wrote 1 & 2 Peter

2. If Peter and the other Apostles disowned Paul then why did Peter say this:

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him
2 Peter 3:15


Here Peter was writing to Gentile believers that Paul had evangelised; the Nazarenes were Jewish believers who held to their judaismic background and were based in Jerusalem. Also they were not the audience of the letter written in Acts 15.

And if they disowned Paul, why was Paul in Jerusalem, of all places, accused as the ringleader:'

"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect
Acts 24:5

Now concerning the Nazarenes, this much is said by wikipedia showing that your source doctored history to suit his/her blog:

Nazarene beliefs[edit]
The beliefs of the Nazarene sect or sects are described through various church fathers and heresiologists.

in Jesus as Messiah:
The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.

— Jerome, On. Is. 8:14
in the Virgin Birth:
They believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.
[size=14pt]
— Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine
in Jesus as the Son of God:
[/size]Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” and “for he shall be called a Nazarene.”
Matthew/Levi wrote the Gospel account to these Nazarenes, using the Hebrew language and here you have it black and white:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/matthew/16.html(look out for vs 16-19)
and
http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/SDAcomms/Hebrew%20Gospel%20of%20MATTHEW%20by%20George%20Howard%20-%20Part%20One.pdf

So were the hawariyun the disciples known as Nasara commended in the Quran?

Nothing much to be said here. You can see clearly yor highlighted part claiming Jesus is not Divine which is in conflict with yout creed. Anything else?. As for Nasara as we (Muslims) know it, it means "Christians". But disciples are Muslims.

Quran speaks:


he{Jesus} said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]. Sura 3:49


And:


"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger {Jesus}: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'". Sura 5:111


As for Nasara, it means Christians (5:82)


۞ لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُم مَّوَدَّةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّا [size=20pt]نَصَارَىٰ[/size] ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ

Highlighted is Na Sa Ra

Here is the translation of the meaning of the text.


Strongest among men in enmity to the believers(Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find those who say, "We are [size=15pt]Christians[/size]": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.



Read The Transliteration


Latajidanna ashadda alnnasi AAadawatan lillatheena amanoo alyahooda waallatheena ashrakoo walatajidanna aqrabahum mawaddatan lillatheena amanoo allatheena qaloo inna [size=16pt]nasara[/size] thalika bianna minhum qisseeseena waruhbanan waannahum la yastakbiroona

You got it?. There are other verses that mentioned nasara in reference to christians.

God is The Lord of all Creations. Only Athiest does not know this.

Scholar8200:

By what criteria do you accept Gospel according to Luke but reject Acts of the Apostles written by the same author? Or by which do you accept Gospel according to John and reject 1,2,3 John and Revelations by the same author? Or by what do you accept Mark and jettison 1 & 2 Peter?Your claims suggest the apostles were inspired only when they wrote the Gospels and this you neither can prove nor could it ever be so!

And since Jesus said there are many things which the Spirit will teach but whish He would not say it means they were not to be found in any of the Gospels.
Besides, if we claim the Spirit came to make us islands of knowledge, by what do we test the spirits?
In John 15, Jesus specifically gave a criteria that NO ONE can ever fulfil but the 12 viz being with Him in His earthly ministry from the beginning! And He linked their witness with that which will be revealed by the Spirit!
15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,eventhe Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
15:27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
John 15:26,27




So was Peter the only one at the Council in Acts 15?
And where did you get that from? Afterall you dont accept the Epistles!
Peter described inspiration thus,''...holy men of God spake as they were moved of the Holy Ghost''
Sometimes what was said was historical, or for the present or the future.

The church in Jerusalem endorsed Paul. Come to look at it,the church was headed by James (the brother of Jesus),why was it not headed by Peter?
Peter kept the word of Jesus,that was why He did not head the church.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Matthew 23:10-12.
James headed the church because He never knew Jesus's teachings. While Jesus was alive he never believed Him.
3 So Jesus' brothers advised him, "Leave here and go to Judea so your disciples may see your miracles that you are performing. 4 For no one who seeks to make a reputation for himself does anything in secret. If you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5 (For not even his own brothers believed in him.)
John 7:3-5.
I guess James became head of the church because He was Jesus brother,i guess he is Mary's second son.
The church of Jerusalem i guess were intimidated by Paul's ministry. The crowd he gathered,the healings etc. They have forgotten what Jesus said to soon.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven - only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful deeds?' 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!'
Matt 7:21-23.

@empiree. You proclaim or preach Islam,a religion built on lies like other religion. I can't continuing trying to tell you the truth because you are not ready to listen,all you believe in is lies. Jesus said
16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God.
John 3:16-21.
Jesus also said
11 Whenever you enter a town or village, find out who is worthy there and stay with them until you leave. 12 As you enter the house, give it greetings. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come on it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off your feet as you leave that house or that town.
Matt 10:11-14.
He also said
47 If anyone hears my words and does not obey them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day.
John 12:47-48.
I beseech you this day,come to the light (Jesus). God loves you so much,more than you can ever think or imagine. Come and be His disciple,together we will witness to the world.

rexben:
@emp.iree. You proclaim or preach Islam,a religion built on lies like other religion. I can't continuing trying to tell you the truth because you are not ready to listen,all you believe in is lies.

Excuse me, can you please quote Islamic text that are lies?

For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

You are yet too answer this question at underlined. What is definition of Only Son, Begotten Son?. Pay close attention to the statement, is appear to be a voice of second person speaking for God. Who is the speaker?


And You Claim To Be 'Disciple' Of Jesus But His True Disciples Proclaim To Be Muslims As Recorded In These Verses.



he{Jesus} said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]. Sura 3:49




"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger {Jesus}: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'". Sura 5:111

rexben:
I have searched throughout matthew,mark,luke and John i haven't and yet to see where Jesus commissioned christianity. Christianity was founded by paul. Have you not asked yourself this question why are pastors always preaching and backing up their doctrines with the epistles and rarely the gospel. The answer is that the EPISTLES is the alternative to the GOSPELS(Matthew,mark,luke,john). All religions are institutions of men(man made). No religion is divine or from God. Paul brought Christianity,Mohammed brought Islam,Jews brought Judaism etc. Come out of religion and follow Jesus. Religion can not save you,it can not take you anywhere. Follow Jesus because He is the only way to God. John 8:31-32,Jesus said if you continue in my words,then you are my disciples. And you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. In order to get eternal life,you have to God through Jesus and not through religion. I am a disciple of Jesus

i'm glad someone sees this truth; religion is man's invention. many Christians live there lives practising what a man at some point in the past invented and then put the work of Christ at the background. most churches/pastors aint even helping matters

Empiree:
Excuse me, can you please quote Islamic text that are lies?


You are yet too answer this question at underlined. What is definition of Only Son, Begotten Son?. Pay close attention to the statement, is appear to be a voice of second person speaking for God. Who is the speaker?


And You Claim To Be 'Disciple' Of Jesus But His True Disciples Proclaim To Be Muslims As Recorded In These Verses.



he{Jesus} said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]. Sura 3:49




"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger {Jesus}: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'". Sura 5:111

13 When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They answered, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!
Matt 16:13-17. Jesus never said His disciples are Christians neither did He said His disciples are Muslims or Buddhist etc. I no longer call you slaves, because the slave does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because I have revealed to you everything I heard from my Father.
John 15:15

rexben:
13 When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They answered, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!
Matt 16:13-17. Jesus never said His disciples are Christians neither did He said His disciples are Muslims or Buddhist etc. I no longer call you slaves, because the slave does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because I have revealed to you everything I heard from my Father.
John 15:15

So should we conclude that God borne a son?. Verses you quoted still dont define what 'son' is. Quran teaches us that God does not begets.

Empiree:
So should we conclude that God borne a son?. Verses you quoted still dont define what 'son' is. Quran teaches us that God does not begets.

Yes. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

rexben:
Yes. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16.

Lobatan. You said God borne a son. How about God's other sons according to the Bible, are they any less dignified?. There also other begotten son in the Bible.

What Is "Begotten Son"?

rexben:
The church in Jerusalem endorsed Paul. Come to look at it,the church was headed by James (the brother of Jesus),why was it not headed by Peter?
Peter kept the word of Jesus,that was why He did not head the church.

James did not head the Church! Keep to the facts!

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Matthew 23:10-12.
James headed the church because He never knew Jesus's teachings. While Jesus was alive he never believed Him.

I repeat James NEVER headed the Church! That is why Paul said in Galatians that he met with PETER to whom was committed ministry to the Circumcised, at Jerusalem.
Peter described himself as a shepherd and an elder like the others in 1Peter 5, would you correct him; this habit of ignorantly defaming Bible characters just because you want to hold to a belief is pathetic!
FYI, James in Acts 15 was James son of Alphaeus, one of the 12!!!

Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Matthew 10:3

3 So Jesus' brothers advised him, "Leave here and go to Judea so your disciples may see your miracles that you are performing. 4 For no one who seeks to make a reputation for himself does anything in secret. If you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5 (For not even his own brothers believed in him.)
John 7:3-5.
I guess James became head of the church because He was Jesus brother,i guess he is Mary's second son.

Can we work with facts and not guesses that suits our rather false claims!

The church of Jerusalem [b]i guess were intimidated by Paul's ministry[/b]. The crowd he gathered,the healings etc. They have forgotten what Jesus said to soon.

This is a false accusation! Peter too gathered crowds and through him, many miracles were wrought! Your resort to accusations that you cannot prove is sad. You talk as though the Spirit went on vacation and all was about men.Even Paul was at Jerusalem partly for accountability purposes. Besides, was it not Peter etc that instructed Paul while at Jerusalem to go to the temple!

Empiree:
Nothing much to be said here. You can see clearly yor highlighted part claiming Jesus is not Divine which is in conflict with yout creed. Anything else?. As for Nasara as we (Muslims) know it, it means "Christians". But disciples are Muslims.

Quran speaks:


he{Jesus} said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]. Sura 3:49


And:


"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger {Jesus}: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'". Sura 5:111


As for Nasara, it means Christians (5:82)


۞ لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُم مَّوَدَّةً لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّا [size=20pt]نَصَارَىٰ[/size] ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ

Highlighted is Na Sa Ra

Here is the translation of the meaning of the text.


Strongest among men in enmity to the believers(Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find those who say, "We are [size=15pt]Christians[/size]": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.



Read The Transliteration


Latajidanna ashadda alnnasi AAadawatan lillatheena amanoo alyahooda waallatheena ashrakoo walatajidanna aqrabahum mawaddatan lillatheena amanoo allatheena qaloo inna [size=16pt]nasara[/size] thalika bianna minhum qisseeseena waruhbanan waannahum la yastakbiroona

You got it?. There are other verses that mentioned nasara in reference to christians.

You have correctly shown here that the Nasaras are Christians but the Nasaras believe in the Divinity of Jesus and His Being The Son of God so do you mean the Quran commended them in spite of this belief?

Empiree:
See, I understand what you trying to do. It doesn't bother me for a second. When it comes to who those disciples of Jesus are, since Quran does not mentioned their names, it becomes a matter of fiqh (jurisdiction). Fiqh does not from Allah. It is rather scholarly opinion which varies widely. Which means scholars may agree and disagree on a subject. It is clear that not many Muslim scholars support opinion of Imam Qurtubi because anytime I searched internet for "who are disciples of Jesus", it is always come under same Imam which means it is his only opinion. If his opinion/claim is valid, we would have seen many scholars of Islam saying the same thing. Here you quoted one Imam and asked me if I agree with him?. You so funny.

Okay.

First, Islamic scholars do not make it incumbent upon any Muslims to establish Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, James, Jude, John and Simon the Zealot as disciples. You gleaned this from wikipedia which has no authority in Islam. Wikipedia is editable. Now, instead of arguing over whether those 12 people named above are truly the disciples, the only way for Muslims to confirm that is by looking in to their teachings which MUST conform with teachings of Jesus for them to be accepted by Muslims. And they also must not contradict each other.
[quote] following

[quote]
For the sake of this thread, if we have to assume those people are truly the disciples, what gives you 100% assurance that their teachings arent corrupted like they did to Jesus?.

Corrupted by who and for what purpose? Polycarp and Ignatius (their writings and that of their proteges are on the net) were direct proteges of John the Apostle (being part of the 3;Peter, James and John) and their teaching agrees with what is in the Bible, what then! Besides, corrupted in deference to what? If the Quran was written in the first century then your claims might hold some water but NO!
Moreover, history has on record the activities of these Apostles after Jesus ascended, and how they and their followers were martyred. Were those corrupted too!

And if you insist they are the true disciples, then, they should have defined "begotten son" which you are unable to figure out.
[quote]
They were sent to preach the Gospel and that they did!


[quote]
Remember that Jesus as you called him today is not his real name. Therefore, he has no idea what Jesus is. Likewise, those 12 disciples mentioned above, I am 100% certain those are not their original names. If their names could be corrupted, why cant their teachings?.

Prove this. Besides, Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, just as Elias is the Greek for Elijah, Osee is the Greek for Hosea so that is NOT an issue here. Claiming this (translation) is corruption is laughable and a purely self serving claim!

I came across a hadith which appears to mention just one of the names of the disciples that doesn't even appear in the list above. Be truthful one second, it is the English speaking Bible writers who gave those names above.

WOW prove it then! English speaking writers yet it appears in the Syrian, Aramian, Greek and Jewish Bibles

Here is the hadith i came about and it made no mentioned of any of the names on the list up there. Read below


Abu Ja‘far (‘a) said, “The foremost are four: the murdered son of Adam, the foremost of the community of Moses, who was a believer among the Pharaoh’s people, the foremost of the community of Jesus, who was Habib the carpenter, and the foremost of the community of Muhammad, who was ‘Ali ibn Abu Tàlib (‘a).” (Bihàr, 66, 156)



It says Habib the carpenter was one of the disciples. So you can see that it is not mandatory for Muslims to believe Peter, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, Andrew, etc are disciples. That's from christian sources. To be fair, we can only accept their teachings that are in harmony with Islam and true teachings of Jesus as taught by Quran. Nothing more.

Jesus had 12 Apostles and many disciples! Among the disciples you had some priests, rich men and women etc But the prominent ones which your Quran calls helpers were the Apostles. They were the ones Jesus said would testify of Him.

The question here is simple: just prove from history that there were Christians or disciples or believers (at ANY time in History but not after Mohammed's death) that denied that Jesus was the Son of God and that He was crucified and rose again, they being the ones Allah commended.
Feel free to invite your ustadh who may be more knowledgeable.

Empiree:
Lobatan. You said God borne a son. How about God's other sons according to the Bible, are they any less dignified?. There also other begotten son in the Bible.

What Is "Begotten Son"?

check your dictionary. A son that is given birth to

rexben:
check your dictionary. A son that is given birth to

God gave birth to Jesus?. I hear you. At least you are bold enough to define "begotten son". Your brother, scholar8200 is unable to do that. He said "begotten" is not defined.

Now that you defined "begotten son", you said God gave birth to Jesus. This is animal act which does not befits His Majesty. Therefore, you blaspheme. This is shirk that Qur'an condemns in surat 2:116, 6:101, 9:30, 10:68, 19:35, 19:88, 23:19, 37:151, 72:3, 112:1-4, 18:1-5


"Those Who Say: ' The Lord Of Mercy {God} Has Begotten A Son', Preach Monstrous Falsehood At Which The Very Heavens Might Crack........It Does Not Befits God To Beget..." Mary Verse 88

Give Up Your Creed Before It Is Too Late.

Empiree:
God gave birth to Jesus?. I hear you. At least you are bold enough to define "begotten son". Your brother, scholar8200 is unable to do that. He said "begotten" is not defined.

Now that you defined "begotten son", you said God gave birth to Jesus. This is animal act which does not befits His Majesty. Therefore, you blaspheme. This is shirk that Qur'an condemns in surat 2:116, 6:101, 9:30, 10:68, 19:35, 19:88, 23:19, 37:151, 72:3, 112:1-4, 18:1-5


"Those Who Say: ' The Lord Of Mercy {God} Has Begotten A Son', Preach Monstrous Falsehood At Which The Very Heavens Might Crack........It Does Not God To Beget..." Mary Verse 88

Give Up Your Creed Before It Is Too Late.

According Jesus in John 3:16, He is the only begotten Son of God. Or was He lying?
He also told His disciples that they are children of God too.
Jesus replied, "Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
John 20:17
Islam is just another Judaism in disguise.
do you say about the one whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
John 10:36

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Scholar8200:
James did not head the Church! Keep to the facts!

I repeat James NEVER headed the Church! That is why Paul said in Galatians that he met with PETER to whom was committed ministry to the Circumcised, at Jerusalem.
Peter described himself as a shepherd and an elder like the others in 1Peter 5, would you correct him; this habit of ignorantly defaming Bible characters just because you want to hold to a belief is pathetic!
FYI, James in Acts 15 was James son of Alphaeus, one of the 12!!!

Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Matthew 10:3

Can we work with facts and not guesses that suits our rather false claims!

This is a false accusation! Peter too gathered crowds and through him, many miracles were wrought! Your resort to accusations that you cannot prove is sad. You talk as though the Spirit went on vacation and all was about men.Even Paul was at Jerusalem partly for accountability purposes. Besides, was it not Peter etc that instructed Paul while at Jerusalem to go to the temple!

You said i don't have prove. You too can't prove that the James mentioned was James son of Alpheaus. My brother,ONE SHEPHERD AND ONE FLOCK,i know it will be very difficult for you to understand or comprehend. Jesus is the only shepherd of his flock. If there are other shepherds and flocks,i don't have problem with that. Let them continue to shepherd their flocks. Jesus's flock can not and can never be shepherd by anyone. If you have a shepherd(pastor) or you a shepherd (pastor),just continue. Jesus has said it and it is final.
My bro i know how you feel. All i give you or try to explain to you is to follow Jesus words only. He said the words that He speaks are spirit and they life. He said He will shepherd his own flock. He said He will build His church(ecclesia),He never asked anybody to assist Him. He said believe in Father also in me. After believing He asked you to continue in His words,not the scriptures or bible. He asked you to accept His words like a little child,no wonder you try to give excuses by saying that is not what He meant. If you don't convert and become like a little child,you can't follow Jesus. Just believe and continue believing in Jesus words.
I writes and posts all this because i want people to know the truth. I am not doing it for any selfish purpose. I just want people to know that believing in Jesus words only is the only thing that makes them know the truth and also brings freedom John 8:31-32 because His words(Matthew,Mark,Luke and John) only are spirit and life.
Pls do check a post i posted. Paul is a false apostle by Edgar Jones.

And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off your feet as you leave that house or that town.
Matt 10:14.
10 But whenever you enter a town and the people do not welcome you, go into its streets and say, 11 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this: The kingdom of God has come.'
Luke 10:10-11
@empiree @scholar. Am sorry i won't reply or quote your comments again. Reason being that you guys are not ready to listen or try to understand. You guys have held your religion in high esteem and can not see it to be lies. I am tired of pouring water inside baskets,most times i reply i do it because of other people that view this posts. But i can see that you guys are creating problems for other viewers or readers because of your religious views.
Or do you comment so that i can follow your religious views? No,its never possible because Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."
Luke 9:62.
but one thing is needed. Mary has chosen the best part; it will not be taken away from her."
Luke 10:42
One thing is needed,believe in Jesus and continue in His teachings(Matthew,Mark,Luke and John only). I have chosen the best part,it will not be taken from me.
I posts and preaches because of Jesus commands.
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
Matt 28:20.
I also do it because of love. Since i found out this truth,i haven't stop preaching it. I love people to follow the narrow way because it is the only way that leads to life.
23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Luke 13:23-24.
Did you know why only few will be saved? It is because men love darkness (religion) rather than light (following Jesus teachings only).
Now this is the basis for judging: that the light has come into the world and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19.
I will still be very active,i am on the lookout for people who ask questions to know and understand and not people who are ready to argue. I will reply comments of people who are ready to know.
@empiree @scholar I don't care about whatever quotes or reply after this. I won't reply because it can not lead anywhere,it will lead to another argument.

I charge you viewers or readers this day, who will follow today? Is it Jesus or Religion (Christianity,Islam,Judaism to mention few). But i advice and encourage you to follow Jesus because He is the way,truth and the life. His words are spirit and they are life. Believe in Him and continue in His teachings as recorded in Matthew,Mark,Luke and John only.

rexben:

@empir.ee

oh oh oh, nje o. Okunrin lo n ke si

Am sorry i won't reply or quote your comments again. Reason being that you guys are not ready to listen or try to understand. You guys have held your religion in high esteem and can not see it to be lies. I am tired of pouring water inside baskets

I asked question and you have answered. You said "God gave birth to Jesus". Thats what begotten means. So you have answered. Too bad you tired of me

But i can see that you guys are creating problems for other viewers or readers because of your religious views.

proooooblems ??...how?

@empir.ee

n da o loun....eye meji ki jediye

I don't care about whatever quotes or reply after this. I won't reply because it can not lead anywhere,it will lead to another argument.

too bad u gave up.

Let me ask u a quick question. Who was Abraham to Jesus and other prophets according to the bible?