Slavoj Zizek:

One of the great platitudes which are popular today when we are confronted with acts of violence is to refer to Theodore Dostoïevsky’s famous statement from The Brothers Karamazov: if there is no God then everything is permitted.

Well, the first problem with this statement of course is that Dostoïevsky never made it. The first one who used this phrase that was allegedly made by Dostoïevsky was Jean-Paul Sartre in 43, but the main point is that this statement is simply wrong.

Even a brief look at our predicament today clearly tells us this. It is precisely if there is God, that everything is permitted to those who not only believe in God but who perceive themselves as instruments, direct instruments of the divine will.

This also applies to non theists. Violence in itself is neither evil nor good, it can be directed towards either an evil or good purpose. In most cases for ambivalent purposes. This lends people the desire to legitimize their actions.

In the case of theists, God is the authority, for some atheists and scientists it could be Truth or Reason. A purpose that makes legitimate any action. So with God all things are permitted, similarly with Truth all things are permitted!

It is precisely if there is God, that[b] everything[/b]is permitted to those who not only believe in God but who perceive themselves as instruments, direct instruments of the divine will.

This is nonsense.

It is only because God exists, that in the midst of everything, there is a defined good and evil, and there is hope of ultimate justice. Do you want to have this argument again?

What do you think he means by 'everything'? Does 'everything' encompass good and evil? If so, what is good and evil

Joshthefirst:
This is nonsense.

It is only because God exists, that in the midst of everything, there is a defined good and evil, and there is hope of ultimate justice. Do you want to have this argument again?

What do you think he means by 'everything'? Does 'everything' encompass good and evil? If so, what is good and evil

In what manner does God define good and evil, is it to his own convenience or to an objective standard independent from God?

Because we will apply the definition to violence.

Joshthefirst:


It is only because God exists, that in the midst of everything, there is a defined good and evil, and there is hope of ultimate justice. Do you want to have this argument again?

Really? Please explain this to me.

PastorAIO:


Really? Please explain this to me.

Is rape good?

If I came into your home and killed your wife and children and stole your money, then escaped to someplace and eventually died. What hope would you have of justice?

What basis is there for our justice systems if morality is relative to superior definition and power?

Kay17:


In what manner does God define good and evil, is it to his own convenience or to an objective standard independent from God?

Because we will apply the definition to violence.

It is to the order and convenience of the beings in creation.

Joshthefirst:
It is to the order and convenience of the beings in creation.

Are these beings capable of deciphering good and evil without God especially when they already know what's order and convenient to them?

Joshthefirst:
Is rape good?

If I came into your home and killed your wife and children and stole your money, then escaped to someplace and eventually died. What hope would you have of justice?

What basis is there for our justice systems if morality is relative to superior definition and power?

Isn't there a relatively greater good in raping the last and unwilling woman on earth so she can reproduce future generations?

Similarly self defence involves murder albeit justified because of a relatively greater good.

Kay17:


Isn't there a relatively greater good in raping the last and unwilling woman on earth so she can reproduce future generations?

Similarly self defence involves murder albeit justified because of a relatively greater good.

smh.

Kay17:


Are these beings capable of deciphering good and evil without God especially when they already know what's order and convenient to them?

The deciphering of good and evil takes us to many places, but without an objective standard, we all become hypocrite lawless animals.

What us wrong in my wiping out half of earth's population for the greater good of our planet?

Joshthefirst:
Is rape good?

If I came into your home and killed your wife and children and stole your money, then escaped to someplace and eventually died. What hope would you have of justice?

What basis is there for our justice systems if morality is relative to superior definition and power?

Personally? I think rape is heinous. But this opinion is not universal. For example these guys and their God think it is just fine:



They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

Joshthefirst:
Is rape good?

If I came into your home and killed your wife and children and stole your money, then escaped to someplace and eventually died. What hope would you have of justice?

Laughing out loud.

Ehhm, Ehhmm,

But sir, God did encourage and command the invasions, lootings, killing of women, children and oxen many many times in your sacred scriptures.

Did he not ?
By what moral standards was God operating on and even promoting ?

Oh Wait, I sense cognitive dissonance in the air, about to attack someone nearby.

PastorAIO:


Personally? I think rape is heinous. But this opinion is not universal. For example these guys and their God think it is just fine:



They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

You may have a reading problem, as rape isn't even mentioned in that passage.

PastorAIO:


Personally? I think rape is heinous. But this opinion is not universal. For example these guys and their God think it is just fine:



They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

History bites.
Biblical history, that is.

plaetton:


Laughing out loud.

Ehhm, Ehhmm,

But sir, God did encourage and command the invasions, lootings, killing of women, children and oxen many many times in your sacred scriptures.

Did he not ?
By what moral standards was God operating on and even promoting ?

Oh Wait, I sense cognitive dissonance in the air, about to attack someone nearby.

It seems you are bent on derailing this thread.

Here's a question:

By what standards do you judge God to be wrong?

Joshthefirst:
You may have a reading problem, as rape isn't even mentioned in that passage.

Laughing out loud again.

I predicted it that cognitive dissonance was in the air.
It has claimed it's first victim on this thread.

So rape is greater form of evil than plunder and murder of women and children?

How about keeping the virgins for themselves?
You don't figure that rape would be a big part of that package ?


Lol.

This is the problem when humans like Josh hastily design a God without forethought and due diligence.

Joshthefirst:
It seems you are bent on derailing this thread.

Here's a question:

By what standards do you judge God to be wrong?

Here is question.

Which God?

Joshthefirst:
It seems you are bent on derailing this thread.

Here's a question:

By what standards do you judge God to be wrong?

By what standards do you judge God to be right?

plaetton:


Laughing out loud again.

I predicted it that cognitive dissonance was in the air.
It has claimed it's first victim on this thread.

So rape is greater form of evil than plunder and murder of women and children?

How about keeping the virgins for themselves?
You don't figure that rape would be a big part of that package ?


Lol.

This is the problem when humans like Josh hastily design a God without forethought and due diligence.

by what standard do you judge rape and the plunder and murder of women and children to be wrong?

thehomer:


By what standards do you judge God to be right?

by what standard do you judge God to be wrong?

Joshthefirst:
by what standard do you judge rape and the plunder and murder of women and children to be wrong?

I think they're right by the standards of reasonable human beings. Or do you think that rape, plunder and murder are right? By what standard do you think that is right?

Joshthefirst:
by what standard do you judge God to be wrong?

By what standard do you judge God to be right?

thehomer:


I think they're right by the standards of reasonable human beings. Or do you think that rape, plunder and murder are right? By what standard do you think that is right?

What do you mean by 'the standard of reasonable human beings'?

Do you mean reasonable human beings will judge rape and the murder and plunder of women and children to be wrong?

If so, then by what standard do you judge people reasonable or unreasonable?

thehomer:


By what standard do you judge God to be right?

Answer mine adequately then I'll answer yours.

Joshthefirst:
Answer mine adequately then I'll answer yours.

I answered and you asked three more questions. Start giving your answer and I will continue.

So, by what standard do you judge rape and the plunder and murder of women and children to be wrong?

@thehomer, I believe you already know where I'm headed with my questions.


If morality is relative, and the one with the means is the one with the lead, then what right do you have to judge any other immoral? Or any act unreasonable?

Joshthefirst:
by what standard do you judge rape and the plunder and murder of women and children to be wrong?

Mr Josh, you introduced rape as injustice on this thread.

We just had to refresh your morally schizophrenic memory that Yahweh, your God, did indeed promote rape, murder and genocide as a religious duty.

thehomer:


I answered and you asked three more questions. Start giving your answer and I will continue.

So, by what standard do you judge rape and the plunder and murder of women and children to be wrong?

You've not answered adequately. You can't say by the standard of reasonable human beings. Don't you believe in moral relativism? What if reasonable human beings to me were rapists?

Joshthefirst:
@thehomer, I believe you already know where I'm headed with my questions.

No I don't know where you're headed with your questions. I'm not a mind reader.

Joshthefirst:

If morality is relative, and the one with the means is the one with the lead, then what right do you have to judge any other immoral? Or any act unreasonable?

Add them to the list of questions you want me to answer. What I want is your answer to this question.

by what standard do you judge rape and the plunder and murder of women and children to be wrong or right? Since your God gave the order, maybe you actually think it is right.

Joshthefirst:
You've not answered adequately. You can't say by the standard of reasonable human beings. Don't you believe in moral relativism? What if reasonable human beings to me were rapists?

You've not even started answering my question. Why don't you start giving your answer? We can go into what we actually consider to be reaonable human beings as the discussion continues.

Are the reasonable people you know rapists?

plaetton:


Mr Josh, you introduced rape as injustice on this thread.

We just had to refresh your morally schizophrenic memory that Yahweh, your God, did indeed promote rape, murder and genocide as a religious duty.

Yhwh did not promote rape. Stop lying.


When a judge sentences one to death, do you call it murder?