dorox:
As a christian I believe that the universe was created by God, But I cannot presume to have the definitive knowledge of how He accomplished this great and complex work. We will spend an eternity searching for answers, as we succeed even more questions will be uncovered in our previous answers. That is why Solomon in the bible book of Ecclesiastes 3:11 said this: "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end."

The problem with many christians is that they imagine that God just blew some fairy dust to bring forth the universe, I find that notion ridiculous.
Advancing scientific knowledge is not anti-God, an obstinate desire to wallow in ignorance is anti-God to me.

I want to pull off a little discussion here.. Let me assume the universe was created by a being or race of beings.

Tell me assuming there was nothing at all only God or God(s) from what exactly did the God(s) create everything from?

donnffd:


Hi Johnydon, i wasnt going to say anything on this thread because the OP lack some basic understanding about the scientific method, and great response by the way, but this part of your post got me thinking...so i wanna ask you, what do you define as absolute truth? and what makes you think that science doesnt have an open mind towards Evolution?

and also, if every single evidence that has been found points to Evolution, doesnt that mean Evolution is the closest to absolute truth Why do you feel science would be very wrong on that?

Sorry this is not to attack any personality, but some people can be so arrogant u said I lack basic understanding about the scientific method, the one u know why can't u post it here for everybody to see,do u know reason i asked those questions ? the purpose of this thread is for everybody to learn more .Despite fact I really leaned a lot from from d answers provided I can say boldly already knew some of them.
Even great scientist like Stephen Hawking did not subscribe to this theory in 100%. Peace

johnydon22:


I want to pull off a little discussion here.. Let me assume the universe was created by a being or race of beings.

Tell me assuming there was nothing at all only God or God(s) from what exactly did the God(s) create everything from?

The universe is too vast and complex for any human and certainly not me to know all of its mysteries, however with continuous study the resolution to this unanswered question will keep getting clearer.
Back to your question, we now know that energy is the great enabler, so guided by knowledge one can create anything with enough energy. God had the knowledge to design the universe and the energy to bring it into existence.
I know it was me that brought God into a science, which I really don't like to do. Perhaps it will be better if you open a thread in the religious section if we are to continue this discussion.

dorox:

The universe is too vast and complex for any human and certainly not me to know all of its mysteries, however with continuous study the resolution to this unanswered question will keep getting clearer.
Back to your question, we now know that energy is the great enabler, guided by knowledge one can create anything with enough energy. God had the knowledge to design the universe and the energy to bring it into existence.

You are missing the point here...

If there was nothing there cannot be a design since there isn't anything to design anything from.

we have the energy to design a watch but we cannot pull a watch out of no where, materials needed to make a watch existed long before we designed and made a watch.

So since there was 'nothing' only God at an aboard of literal nothingness, from whence did he design something when there really isn't anything to design..

assuming there was nothing at all only God or God(s) from what
exactly did the God(s) create everything from?

From nothing?

johnydon22:


You are missing the point here...

If there was nothing there cannot be a design since there isn't anything to design anything from.

we have the energy to design a watch but we cannot pull a watch out of no where, materials needed to make a watch existed long before we designed and made a watch.

So since there was 'nothing' only God at an aboard of literal nothingness, from whence did he design something when there really isn't anything to design..

assuming there was nothing at all only God or God(s) from what
exactly did the God(s) create everything from?

From nothing?

Your statement presumes that the universe and God are disjoint Set, that is not so because God is an infinite personality, hence the universe as vast as it is, is a subset of God and is contained in God.
The statement above is my notion of God. I do not pretend that I can prove this notion to you, or anyone else, but I am happy with my belief.

Gluthatione:

Sorry this is not to attack any personality, but some people can be so arrogant u said I lack basic understanding about the scientific method, the one u know why can't u post it here for everybody to see,do u know reason i asked those questions ? the purpose of this thread is for everybody to learn more .Despite fact I really leaned a lot from from d answers provided I can say boldly already knew some of them.
Even great scientist like Stephen Hawking did not subscribe to this theory in 100%. Peace

I see you are aggravated about my statement, I ddnt mean to insult your personality, I just saw some flaws in the way you posed the questions and felt some basic understanding was missing. By no means was I attacking you personally. Just a quick point, Stephen hawking is a string physicist, and that means he is looking for how to solve the singularity problem, the incompatible nature of quantum mechanics and General relativity. The idea that he doesn't subscribe 100% to the big bang theory is in my opinion a false one and very laughable.

dorox:


Your statement presumes that the universe and God are disjoint Set, that is not so because God is an infinite personality, hence the universe as vast as it is, is a subset of God and is contained in God.
The statement above is my notion of God. I don't pretend that I can prove this notion to you, or anyone else, but I am happy with my belief.

Fair enough..

Now since the universe is contained within god therefore a part of god, how so then can the universe be designed.

God designed himself?

johnydon22:


Fair enough..

Now since the universe is contained within god therefore a part of god, how so then can the universe be designed.

God designed himself?

The context of my use of the word contained has little to do with spatial relationship, it is more of a causative relationship.
Since God is infinite, it would imply that the knowledge was within Him.
This kind of discussion tends not to go anywhere, can we just go back to discussing science, or move to the section that is better tailored to it?

dorox:


The context of my use of the word contained has little to do with spatial relationship, it is more of a causative relationship.
Since God is infinite, it would imply that the knowledge was within Him.
This kind of discussion tends not to go anywhere, can we just go back to discussing science, or move to the section that is better tailored to it?

it's ok if we discuss it here..

the infinitely conscious all knowing entity thingy is an even bigger problem but i'd leave it and focus on the causality and design premise

You see this re-opens the former problem? there was no universe and you think god caused and designed the universe.

Which means since there was no universe god had to design it out of nothing, there cannot be design if there is nothing to design it from.

so how did this happen?

johnydon22:


it's ok if we discuss it here..

the infinitely conscious all knowing entity thingy is an even bigger problem but i'd leave it and focus on the causality and design premise

You see this re-opens the former problem? there was no universe and you think god caused and designed the universe.

Which means since there was no universe god had to design it out of nothing, there cannot be design if there is nothing to design it from.

so how did this happen?

I guess one can say that depending on which point of view that is taken, one could argue that either your question or my answer is as meaningless as debating how many angels can dance the cha cha on a pin head.,
From my point of view, the infinite nature of God means that all the knowledge, whether it existed in the past or exist in the present, or is yet to be manifested, is known to God. So unlike human with incomplete knowledge God does not need a template for creation.

johnydon22:


You are missing the point here...

If there was nothing there cannot be a design since there isn't anything to design anything from.

we have the energy to design a watch but we cannot pull a watch out of no where, materials needed to make a watch existed long before we designed and made a watch.

So since there was 'nothing' only God at an aboard of literal nothingness, from whence did he design something when there really isn't anything to design..

assuming there was nothing at all only God or God(s) from what
exactly did the God(s) create everything from?

From nothing?

Energy in the right form will produce any material you need, the stars and planets once existed as pure energy before condensing into matter.

dorox:

Energy in the right form will produce any material you need, the stars and planets once existed as pure energy before condensing into matter.

So energy existed alongside God before God fashioned stars out of it?

johnydon22:


So energy existed alongside God before God fashioned stars out of it?

By definition being alive means that there is a measure of energy that is endosomatic to you, it is part of you and makes you, you. So also it is with God, He is alive, therefore there is an immeasurable amount of energy associated with His person.
As I said before, God is the universal set, and everything else is derived from him.

Gluthatione:
Big bang is the explosion leading to the formation of universe,that is the cosmic event that mark the beginning of time and rapid enpansion of space for the visible universe.
Now this is the reason i will never believe in big bang theory
1 What causes the explosion in the first place & what formed it?
2 Why is it still expanding ?
3 Out of several trillions of planet in the universe why is it that life is thriving in just only one of them ? Even in our own galaxy there are 200-400 billions planets no evidence of life in them.
4 Now as complex as universe is,do you think it is possible for universe to have created itself and life randomly formed on earth as evolutionists claimed?
Now lets talk about evolution which is the change in the genetic composition of a population over successive generations.
Now the first protein which is building block of life how does it formed?(Abiogenesis).Don't tell me it formed by chance 'probabilistic calculations' because experimentally this is highly impossible.
Great guys out there what do you say about this ,do you believe in evolution and big bang theory.What do you say about this?

Did you personally check all the planets? This one that you are saying no life on all of them

dorox:



By definition being alive means that there is a measure of energy that is endosomatic to you, it is part of you and makes you, you. So also it is with God, He is alive, therefore there is an immeasurable amount of energy associated with His person.
As I said before, God is the universal set, and everything else is derived from him.

This still doesn't answer the question. . We are alive. we live but yet we cannot pull out a watch from ourselves or from no where.

So since there was no universe how did god derive a universe to create, from himself? magic?

He spoke to himself and the universe popped out?

johnydon22:


This still doesn't answer the question. . We are alive. we live but yet we cannot pull out a watch from ourselves or from no where.

So since there was no universe how did god derive a universe to create, from himself? magic?

He spoke to himself and the universe popped out?

I am sure that if the energy that birthed the universe at the moment of the big bang is endosomatic to you, then making a universe would be a matter of finding the right value to give to various constants for the kind of universe that you want.

dorox:

I am sure that if the energy that birthed the universe at the moment of the big bang is endosomatic to you, then making a universe would be a matter of finding the right value to give to various constants for the kind of universe that you want.

now for God to make the universe he had to find the right values to give to various constants for make this kind of universe.

so therefore these values were there before god utilized them to fashion a universe?

or there weren't and god first had to pull them out from somewhere before utilizing them

johnydon22:



now for God to make the universe he had to find the right values to give to various constants for make this kind of universe.

so therefore these values were there before god utilized them to fashion a universe?

or there weren't and god first had to pull them out from somewhere before utilizing them

Yes, all possible values is contained within God. Nothing exist outside Him.

dorox:

Yes, all possible values is contained within God. Nothing exist outside Him.

Ok god pull them right out of himself?

johnydon22:


Ok god pull them right out of himself?

That is one way of putting it.
I am sure my grandmother felt the same way when she saw Oyimbo's magic for the first time.

dorox:

That is one way of putting it.
I am sure my grandmother felt the same way when she saw Oyimbo's magic for the first time.

Lmoa... well moving on..

So why then do you think there is need to place a god in the corner of universal causality.

what prompts intelligent design?

And how are there not more than 1 or an entire race of these god entities.

johnydon22:


Lmoa... well moving on..

So why then do you think there is need to place a god in the corner of universal causality.

what prompts intelligent design?

And how are there not more than 1 or an entire race of these god entities.

Because I don't believe in chance, I think it is the scientific equivalent of God did it. Events only appears random when the limits of our understanding is exceeded.

Please rephrase your second question, I did not quite get it.

God is the universal set, so if there are other Gods, then they would be contained in Him. But if a God or Gods exist outside of Him, they would constitute a disjointed set and effectively be nonexistent to us.

dorox:


Because I don't believe in chance, I think it is the scientific equivalent of God did it. Events only appears random when the limits of our understanding is exceeded.

Don't you see if the world thought as you did then we all would cherish belief over what is true..

This is not a matter of what you believe or want to believe, it's a matter of what is right so the bolded is completely out of it..

Believing or not believing something doesn't make it true or untrue, if it is then it is

by first diminishing your scope of deduction by i don't believe in chance you have already concluded on what you want the answer to be even before looking

So we should judge our progress by the depth of our questions and the sincerity of our answers and our ability to agree with what is right rather than believe what feels good

what is the chance that in a sieve of 200,000,000 holes, a drop of water must pass through one?

Please rephrase your second question, I did not quite get it.

what makes you think the universe or nature must be designed?

God is the universal set, so if there are other Gods, then they would be contained in Him. But if a God or Gods exist outside of Him, they would constitute a disjointed set and effectively be nonexistent to us.

Since they can be 1 then they can be thousands or even millions or a whole race of them even joint in the design set.

so what makes you think 1 is less of an assumption than 1,000

johnydon22:


Don't you see if the world thought as you did then we all would cherish belief over what is true..

This is not a matter of what you believe or want to believe, it's a matter of what is right so the bolded is completely out of it..

Believing or not believing something doesn't make it true or untrue, if it is then it is

by first diminishing your scope of deduction by i don't believe in chance you have already concluded on what you want the answer to be even before looking

So we should judge our progress by the depth of our questions and the sincerity of our answers and our ability to agree with what is right rather than believe what feels good

what is the chance that in a sieve of 200,000,000 holes, a drop of water must pass through one?

what makes you think the universe or nature must be designed?


Since they can be 1 then they can be thousands or even millions or a whole race of them even joint in the design set.

so what makes you think 1 is less of an assumption than 1,000

What you see as chance is what I see as incomplete information. The example you gave of a drop of water and 200,000,000 sieve holes is a good example. With little or no information one would be unable to tell if the drop of water would even hit the sieve, with more information one would start talking about a reasonable certainty of which part of the sieve the water will pass through. And with complete information you will know with certainty which hole the water will pass through.
To believe that the universe came from random chance is even more of a stretch in my opinion. If it is random why do you bother to try to understand it?

dorox:


What you see as chance is what I see as incomplete information. The example you gave of a drop of water and 200,000,000 sieve holes is a good example. With little or no information one would be unable to tell if the drop of water would even hit the sieve, with more information one would start talking about a reasonable certainty of which part of the sieve the water will pass through. And with complete information you will know with certainty which hole the water will pass through.
To believe that the universe came from random chance is even more of a stretch in my opinion. If it is random why do you bother to try to understand it?

In every random process there is a pattern, in every interaction there is a result..

this is the nature of everything, this is the result of what was in the testimony of what is.

Take for instance a Sand Dune, it is very artistic and precise but then from whence did it come?

Was it a planned artistic design?

Not even in the least, just a random and even chaotic reaction of wind on sand and from the chaotic reaction a pattern emerges, a result.

The Penicillin was made from chance yet saved millions and very important in our medical field.

Even where there is will, Chance governs all.

Even when you invoke a God, it is still a subject to chance...

-A chance that somehow outstandingly we've got a God(and not nothing)

-A chance that it is remarkably powerful enough to make something

-A chance that is precisely able and willing.

-A chance that in it's infinite loop of existence it decides to make everything.

2,000,000 sperms on conception night only one made it, it is a remarkable chance, even your day to day life is governed and subjected to chance.

A chance that your car doesn't get hit by another or a meteor doesn't fall right into your head.

So this is not about what feels good that takes us to the scope of theology which in essence is blind.

theology only aims at giving answers to satisfy the questioner while science gives answers to satisfy the question, the question may or may not like it

it is not a matter of believing the universe is a product of chance, believing it doesn't make it true anymore than not believing it makes it a lie.

Invoking what you want to be (believe) in a quest to ascertain what is diminishes your enquiry only to that of emotion and reduces the chance of a truthful deduction.

to borrow your words " To believe that the universe God(s) is from random chance is even more of a stretch in my opinion."

replace the universe with God and you see all again falls back to chance.. why there is something (God) and not nothing.. since it is a chance of nothing and something, it also will be a remarkable chance if something(God) is and not nothing

To continue:

-what makes you think the universe or nature must be designed?

-why do you think there need only be 1 god being and not an entire race of them, if 1 can exist then can't millions of them exist? Or do you think 1 makes a less of an assumption?

-further stretch it, how did you come about the knowledge of God? Is that you could not swallow the weight of everything being a product of chance hence God?

johnydon22:


In every random process there is a pattern, in every interaction there is a result..

this is the nature of everything, this is the result of what was in the testimony of what is.

Take for instance a Sand Dune, it is very artistic and precise but then from whence did it come?

Was it a planned artistic design?

Not even in the least, just a random and even chaotic reaction of wind on sand and from the chaotic reaction a pattern emerges, a result.

The Penicillin was made from chance yet saved millions and very important in our medical field.

Even where there is will, Chance governs all.

Even when you invoke a God, it is still a subject to chance...

-A chance that somehow outstandingly we've got a God(and not nothing)

-A chance that it is remarkably powerful enough to make something

-A chance that is precisely able and willing.

-A chance that in it's infinite loop of existence it decides to make everything.

2,000,000 sperms on conception night only one made it, it is a remarkable chance, even your day to day life is governed and subjected to chance.

A chance that your car doesn't get hit by another or a meteor doesn't fall right into your head.

So this is not about what feels good that takes us to the scope of theology which in essence is blind.

theology only aims at giving answers to satisfy the questioner while science gives answers to satisfy the question, the question may or may not like it

it is not a matter of believing the universe is a product of chance, believing it doesn't make it true anymore than not believing it makes it a lie.

Invoking what you want to be (believe) in a quest to ascertain what is diminishes your enquiry only to that of emotion and reduces the chance of a truthful deduction.

to borrow your words " To believe that the universe God(s) is from random chance is even more of a stretch in my opinion."

replace the universe with God and you see all again falls back to chance.. why there is something (God) and not nothing.. since it is a chance of nothing and something, it also will be a remarkable chance if something(God) is and not nothing

To continue:

-what makes you think the universe or nature must be designed?

-why do you think there need only be 1 god being and not an entire race of them, if 1 can exist then can't millions of them exist? Or do you think 1 makes a less of an assumption?

Awesome logic 401

Well done Johnydon22, i commend you once again for your effort at educating Nigerian youth on modern science. I hope your efforts will inspire young nigerians to embrace science and help contribute to the development of Nigeria and Humanity as a whole.

To the OP and his likes;
Do you even have the faintest idea of the concepts you are asking about -Big Bang and Biological evolution?
You guys have a very wrong notion of the Big Bang Theory and not ready to do the hard work to learn. You guys are just trying to justify your religious dogma by shooting down scientific concepts that contradicts your beliefs.

For you to understand the Big Bang Theory, you will need to understand the proof of the expansion of the universe through Red Shift Measurements of distant Objects. You will also need to read up on the father of modern astronomy, Edwin Hubble, who actually showed proof that the universe is expanding. Read up on various other proofs of the expanding universe like the cosmic background radiation.

Now please answer this question, Do you accept that the universe is expanding? If you answer yes, then you must also accept that it must have started out quite small. The start of this expansion or inflation is what is generally known as the Big Bang.If you do not believe that the universe is expanding, then we have nothing to discuss.
-

You Guyz are Stunning! ( JohnnyDon most especially)
Wirinet, Where have you been na?

IdomaLikita:
You Guyz are Stunning! ( JohnnyDon most especially)
Wirinet, Where have you been na?

My brother, i am been very busy with the basic task of survival in Nigeria. I hardly have time for work and family not to talk of social media. I browse through nairaland from time to time and occasionally make comments. I am happy that humanists like yourself and Johnydon has taken off where i and a few others stopped at enlightening our youth on the need to embrace scientific reasoning as opposed to religious dogma and fundamentalism. Religious fundamentalism is a dangerous weapon in the hands of the youth as shown by ISIS and christian fundamentalists.

wirinet:


My brother, i am been very busy with the basic task of survival in Nigeria. I hardly have time for work and family not to talk of social media. I browse through nairaland from time to time and occasionally make comments. I am happy that humanists like yourself and Johnydon has taken off where i and a few others stopped at enlightening our youth on the need to embrace scientific reasoning as opposed to religious dogma and fundamentalism. Religious fundamentalism is a dangerous weapon in the hands of the youth as shown by ISIS and christian fundamentalists.

Doooh my brother, you are welcome! Eri

wirinet:
Well done Johnydon22, i commend you once again for your effort at educating Nigerian youth on modern science. I hope your efforts will inspire young nigerians to embrace science and help contribute to the development of Nigeria and Humanity as a whole.

To the OP and his likes;
Do you even have the faintest idea of the concepts you are asking about -Big Bang and Biological evolution?
You guys have a very wrong notion of the Big Bang Theory and not ready to do the hard work to learn. You guys are just trying to justify your religious dogma by shooting down scientific concepts that contradicts your beliefs.

For you to understand the Big Bang Theory, you will need to understand the proof of the expansion of the universe through Red Shift Measurements of distant Objects. You will also need to read up on the father of modern astronomy, Edwin Hubble, who actually showed proof that the universe is expanding. Read up on various other proofs of the expanding universe like the cosmic background radiation.

Now please answer this question, Do you accept that the universe is expanding? If you answer yes, then you must also accept that it must have started out quite small. The start of this expansion or inflation is what is generally known as the Big Bang.If you do not believe that the universe is expanding, then we have nothing to discuss.
-

The likes of Johnhydon22, loj, tauraus and some other great guys have contributed their quota all I can only see here is empty barrel making noise, the ones u know 'mr know all'why can't u post it here for all to see. Even most scientists also have divergent views about all these theories so don't expect everyone to be like u after all I didn't say anything about religion from what I posted. Peace!