I think I'm with 9jacrip on this issue of 'G' or 'g'. That analogy with Jesus fails to take into consideration the fact that Trinitarian Christians do not rank Jesus lower than God the Father. The Trinitarian teaching is that they are all one God and they are all equal.

But Yoruba theology doesn't teach that Eledumare and Irunmole are all one God; neither does it teach that they are all equal. In this case there is clearly a ranking, with Eledumare being head and shoulders above the Irunmoles. So it makes sense to designate Eledumare as 'God', and the Irunmole as 'gods'.

In any case, I don't think y'all should make much of this - it is not even that important. When y'all insist on using the terms (and the capitalizations) the Christians use, it sort of looks as if y'all are looking up to and trying to emulate their designations.

macof:


What is the difference between the nature of the irunmole and Olodumare?
Olodumare is part of the 401 deities, only being higher than the other 400.. 200 at the right and 200 at the left

What the guy is trying to say is that we must not let others have the impression that Isese deities are less than what the Europeans brought to Africa. when we agree with them that we venerate gods while they have a trinity of Gods

At the emboldened:

Sir, you're very wrong. Olodumare has never been and is not part of the 401 deities,

Iba Olodumare

Iba irunmole eji'kotun

Iba Irunmole eji'kosi

Ooni is the 401st that never gets mentioned before a prayer, ifa & orisa chants.

No & No, Olodumare is not irunmole. He made them and we were made by Irunmole.

Don't confuse it.

Wulfruna:
I think I'm with 9jacrip on this issue of 'G' or 'g'. That analogy with Jesus fails to take into consideration the fact that Trinitarian Christians do not rank Jesus lower than God the Father. The Trinitarian teaching is that they are all one God and they are all equal.
But Yoruba theology doesn't teach that Eledumare and Irunmole are all one God; neither does it teach that they are all equal. In this case there is clearly a ranking, with Eledumare being head and shoulders above the Irunmoles. So it makes sense to designate Eledumare as 'God', and the Irunmole as 'gods'.
In any case, I don't think y'all should make much of this - it is not even that important. When y'all insist on using the terms (and the capitalizations) the Christians use, it sort of looks as if y'all are looking up to and trying to emulate their designations.

It is not about looking up to Europeans/Christians or emulating. Rather, it is a case oh how we arrange the hierarchy of our God & deities when writing in English - a foreign language to our cultural arrangements.

Using God for the creator of Irunmole then using God for Irunmole is enough to confuse even an Iseese adherent. Apart from the above, it is only right to draw distinction in reverence when talking or writing about Olodumare and/or Irunmoles - the latter would cringe at the thought of being equated to their own creator.

macof:


I totally agree with this.


I also Don't use small g when referring to Pagan Deities.... it's totally disrespectful considering in english people never refer to Jesus as god

You are on point

9jacrip:



It makes no sense arguing over a letter case.

However, it is all semantics but in your attempt at being pro-African, you're creating an antithetical structure in Iseese to that of foreign belief.


Olodumare [God]

Irunmole [deities/gods]

Olodumare is not Irunmole



God

Jesus [deity]

But in Christianity (apart from JW)

[Jesus is God & God is Jesus]


Difference: either GOD for Olodumare or God for Irunmole, they are not the same. Olodumare created the Irunmole. When writing in English, all uppercase in a sentence is invalid. Hence, Olodumare takes the uppercase G while irunmole takes the lowercase - using G for both not only creates confusion but 'de-reps' Olodumare.

You are the one confusing yourself. I never said Eledua/Eleduamre/Olodumare (GOD) is the same as the Irunmoles (Gods). What I'm just saying is that, it time to stop accepting the junks thrown as our traditional civilization thereby ridiculing it just the same way they call you 3rd world country and you accept. You not only accept but continue to remain this 3rd world country ideology.

It's the same here. i have just refused to accept the notion that a small letter depicting Irunmole is not only wrong but also highly discriminatory and derogatory and this usage is very common with the Europeans that even teach their unborn kids anything black is bad.


It's the same ideology they have sold that Irumoles should be depicted as a small letter G. That is propagating a religious ideology that their god is more important or supreme than our Gods(Irunmoles). I would never accept such thing because it's a complete insult and again jesus is not in any position with Olodumare (GOD) which is the supreme being that created heaven and Earth (Ile Ife).

And again, we do not serve the same Olodumare because our Olodumare did not create what it could not control. Only the god of Hebrew created Satan which it could not control.

Eledumare created Esu and good news is Esu is not Satan, has never been and will never be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhezxfNiDP8

Mind you he Eledumare also did not create hell. There is no hell.

For this reason jesus may be in the same position as an Irunmole like Orunmila or even the Ooni of Ife anytime he puts on his ade Ori. Many do not know that any time ooni of ife puts on his Ade ori, he's regarded as Igbakeji Orisa. A God and the supreme leader of all Yoruba people.

I would even put Jesus to Ooni of ife to tell you how lesser god the foreign Jesus is to our traditional hierarchy

9jacrip:


At the emboldened:

Sir, you're very wrong. Olodumare has never been and is not part of the 401 deities,

Iba Olodumare

Iba irunmole eji'kotun

Iba Irunmole eji'kosi

Ooni is the 401st that never gets mentioned before a prayer, ifa & orisa chants.

No & No, Olodumare is not irunmole. He made them and we were made by Irunmole.

Don't confuse it.

Yes yes. .. I knew you would mention the Ooni as the 401st .

correct me if I'm wrong ...
In Ife there are 200 deities actively worshipped and Ooni makes it 201....there's less reference to the number "401"

but outside ife, Ooni is not so much seen as a deity and there's less reference to the number "201" rather we hear of 200 at the left, 200 at the right. ..and I've long realized that Olodumare makes the 401st.
in fact a proper translation for "Irunmole" would be "400 deities" so yes you can say Olodumare is not part of the irunmole but Olodumare is a higher deity of the same nature

macof:


Yes yes. .. I knew you would mention the Ooni as the 401st .

correct me if I'm wrong ...
In Ife there are 200 deities actively worshipped and Ooni makes it 201....there's less reference to the number "401"

but outside ife, Ooni is not so much seen as a deity and there's less reference to the number "201" rather we hear of 200 at the left, 200 at the right. ..and I've long realized that Olodumare makes the 401st.
in fact a proper translation for "Irunmole" would be "400 deities" so yes you can say Olodumare is not part of the irunmole but Olodumare is a higher deity of the same nature

Its been a while you and I had a debate sir, I missed it.

Either Ooni is seen as a deity outside Ife or not, the reason why it is call Okanlerinwo imole is because of the Ooni.

Take out Ooni and the deities toally are 400.

200 on earth, 200 back in heaven.

We do not reference the other 200 because they remain with Olodumare.

Irun-imole means Irun-Orisa

Olodumare is not Irunmole/Orisa o Macof, that is an insult to him.

9jacrip:



Its been a while you and I had a debate sir, I missed it.

Either Ooni is seen as a deity outside Ife or not, the reason why it is call Okanlerinwo imole is because of the Ooni.

Take out Ooni and the deities toally are 400.

200 on earth, 200 back in heaven.

We do not reference the other 200 because they remain with Olodumare.

Irun-imole means Irun-Orisa

Olodumare is not Irunmole/Orisa o Macof, that is an insult to him.

Yes yes I miss our debates

I'll look more into the matter of the 401st ..

I know Olodumare cannot be said to be among the irunmole but I was trying to bring to notice the similar nature Olodumare and the irunmole possess... unlike say, the Iwin and Emere which are totally different Spiritual entities


btw Orisa is more like a Great ancestor linked to an Irunmole

Nice pictures 9jacrip... Thanks for sharing..

Anyways, in regards to upper or lower case letters. In as much as I agree with both sides of the discussion I think this is a catch 22 moment. We understand the shenanigans that those who muddle both concepts bring to such discussion.

The african mind belittles his/her heritage or traditional concepts for a "belief.

While the european mind belittes the african concepts in order to elevate his own satus.

Therefore, we know who is ignorant of a glaring fact... what can we do when they measure our collective identities by our short comings.

macof:


Yes yes I miss our debates

I'll look more into the matter of the 401st ..

I know Olodumare cannot be said to be among the irunmole but I was trying to bring to notice the similar nature Olodumare and the irunmole possess... unlike say, the Iwin and Emere which are totally different Spiritual entities


btw Orisa is more like a Great ancestor linked to an Irunmole

Olodumare and Irunmole do not have a similar nature not in anyway, at least I do not think so.

Olodumare stands out as the Oga of irunmole. In fact, they are very nuch different.

The emboldened: you just stated a difference between what people talk about when they discuss oduduwa descending on chain type of history and Oduduwa at Oke Ora history.

Irunmoles are pre-existing forces Orisa morph into.

GooseBaba:
Nice pictures 9jacrip... Thanks for sharing..

Anyways, in regards to upper or lower case letters. In as much as I agree with both sides of the discussion I think this is a catch 22 moment. We understand the shenanigans that those who muddle both concepts bring to such discussion.

The african mind belittles his/her heritage or traditional concepts for a "belief.

While the european mind belittes the african concepts in order to elevate his own satus.

Therefore, we know who is ignorant of a glaring fact... what can we do when they measure our collective identities by our short comings.

This is a balanced view.

At the emboldened: that exactly is my brother, scully95's stand which makes a lot of sense.

What can we do? This is a question that requires some thinking.

scully95:


You are the one confusing yourself. I never said Eledua/Eleduamre/Olodumare (GOD) is the same as the Irunmoles (Gods). What I'm just saying is that, it time to stop accepting the junks thrown as our traditional civilization thereby ridiculing it just the same way they call you 3rd world country and you accept. You not only accept but continue to remain this 3rd world country ideology.

It's the same here. i have just refused to accept the notion that a small letter depicting Irunmole is not only wrong but also highly discriminatory and derogatory and this usage is very common with the Europeans that even teach their unborn kids anything black is bad.


It's the same ideology they have sold that Irumoles should be depicted as a small letter G. That is propagating a religious ideology that their god is more important or supreme than our Gods(Irunmoles). I would never accept such thing because it's a complete insult and again jesus is not in any position with Olodumare (GOD) which is the supreme being that created heaven and Earth (Ile Ife).

And again, we do not serve the same Olodumare because our Olodumare did not create what it could not control. Only the god of Hebrew created Satan which it could not control.

Eledumare created Esu and good news is Esu is not Satan, has never been and will never be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhezxfNiDP8

Mind you he Eledumare also did not create hell. There is no hell.

For this reason jesus may be in the same position as an Irunmole like Orunmila or even the Ooni of Ife anytime he puts on his ade Ori. Many do not know that any time ooni of ife puts on his Ade ori, he's regarded as Igbakeji Orisa. A God and the supreme leader of all Yoruba people.

I would even put Jesus to Ooni of ife to tell you how lesser god the foreign Jesus is to our traditional hierarchy

I like(d) your post. I must say I grasp where you're coming from totally and I appreciate that someone else has this view but then while writing, how do we structure out a difference between Olodumare & Irunmole? Do we write out their names rather use the G/god term?

The only point at which we differ is how to use the G/god term when writng in English.

And I do not believe in heaven or hell either.

9jacrip:


I like(d) your post. I must say I grasp where you're coming from totally and I appreciate that someone else has this view but then while writing, how do we structure out a difference between Olodumare & Irunmole? Do we write out their names rather use the G/god term?

The only point at which we differ is how to use the G/god term when writng in English.

And I do not believe in heaven or hell either.

When writing in English, I think we can take a little time off to stress the fact that Olodumare (GOD) is bigger than Irumoles via an open and close bracket or rather in full like this "GOD/God, the creator of Heavens and Earth"... (Olodumare) and stressing an Orisa using "God, the God of River", (Irumole) while also reffering to Irunmole we could also do the same by stressing it in an open and clossed bracket to make your reader understand the huge difference between the two. Remember what matters here is your reader understanding and knowing very well the huge difference between the two and it does not matter here since the English language is not our oral Language. Naturally, writing their names in Yoruba langauge is enough to understand they are not in the same position.

I also think instead of using God for the Iruomles, you can write their names which is perfect. But whenever anyone wants to use God, it should always be regarded with a capital letter G.

I would honestly preffer just using full capital letters(GOD) to regard Olodumare while use only G (God) to regard Irumole(s) or just write the the Orisa name. We have about 401 of them. You are free to even choose anyone from the 401 and live their lifestyles.

And this is why the Yoruba only believes in heaven. Yoruba believes heaven is our second home and when we pass on, we do return. Notice names like Babatunde and Yetunde. These are names given to a new Born baby that just lost a father/grandfather or Mother/grandmother.

For example if my Father just died and the next person i give birth to happens to be a boy. Then I would give that Boy Babatunde.. If i just lost my mum and next Baby is a Daughter, Yetunde. Meaning mom returned or my late father has just returned from heaven.


This is the idea that was re-modified and re-sold back to us in the god of hebrew. Here they added hell to it and Satan.

The simple truth is Esu in Yoruba traditional religion of destiny, Ifa is not their Satan. Esu is messenger of Olodmare that helps Baba'alawo to interprete Ifa. It's believed that Ifa was given to Orumila from Olodumare for Omo Eniyan to use as Guidance.

Ifa here has more than 7000 verses/stories known as Odu ifa. This again was re-modified by the foreigners to use as Quran or Bible. Ifa has more verses than the verses in Quran for example.

Ifa has 16 stanzas. Each stanza has about 495 verses. ( known as Odus/Odu Ifa/Stories). Baba’alawo or Iyalawo (Ifa Chief priest or priestess ) is required to know by heart a lot of these verses (just like the Imam studying the verses in the Quran or Pastor studying verses and chapters in the Bible in Eastern and Western civilizations, Islam and Christianity respectively).


See Example of an Ifa verse bellow. 495 x 16 = 7920 Verses a Baba’alawo or Iyanifa must learn or know by heart. See example of a verse or odu (Ogbe Rikusa) . But usually a Baba’alawo or an Iyanifa learns the top 200 by heart which encompases major problems or stories omo Eniyan has. This again is the same ideal re-produced in the Bible and Quran which are both religions of Abraham. They copied our old tradition.
Ile ife is older than Palmyra of Syria. 10,000 BC. Palmyra is 9,000 BC.




Odu Ogbe rikusa

The blind and disabled are friends

The disabled person asked the blind person:

Is this how we are going to die of suffering?

The blind responded: what shall we do about it?

The disabled answered: let us go and ask a wise person what to do.

They inquired of the wise person: will we ever walk or see again?

The wise person queried: Have you ever walked or seen before?

They answered: never!

They were asked to perform an offering

They were perplexed: What is he talking about?

Can we afford to pay for any offering?

The disabled suggested suicide as an option

Days latter the disabled repeated the suggestion to the blind person

The blind responded: you know I cannot see, so whatever you suggest is okay

We have been friends for too long and I could not live without you

The disabled responded: I know a place we can go to kill ourselves

The disabled person added: when we get to the water, I will just jump into it

The blind person questioned: how would I know?

The disabled said: I will bring you close to the edge so when you hear the loud sound of falling, you know it is time to jump

On the second day they decided to end it all

The disabled led the blind to the water

As they neared the edge the disabled lamented and threw a huge stone into the water

The disabled hoped he tricked the blind person to jump

But the blind person was so worried and upset that threw his walking stick around and hit the disabled person

The disabled person shrieked!

The blind person was so surprised

He asked the disabled why he wanted to trick him to die

The disabled apologized and the blind person could not be too upset

Did he not need the disabled to bring him home?

As they continued along in the bush they came across some food

Cooking the meat seemed to take too long. but

The blind realized that each time the disabled spoke it sounded as if he was eating

Since the blind person kept asking the disabled person for food, the disabled gave the blind a toad to eat instead

The blind could not see so he put the toad’s head in his mouth

As he bit the toad the water from the toad’s eyeball broke and splashed into the blind’s eye

He regained sight!

As he regained sight the blind took over the cooking and gave the toad to the disabled person to eat

He then went to the waterside to drink

But he told the disabled person that if the disabled person was still present when he returned, the disabled person had only three options:

To be pushed into the water

To be beaten

To be taken into the forest and abandoned

The disabled person chose to be beaten

The previously blind person went to beat the disabled on his head

The disabled suggested being beaten on the buttocks, knowing that from the waist down was paralyzed so he would not feel any pain

As the previously blind started to beat his buttocks with a walking stick

The disabled stood up and started running!

But the two of them were so carried away they could not see what was happening to both of them

As the disabled was running and the blind chasing

They ran into a prophet

The disabled screamed for help

Help me Baba!

The prophet asked them what the problem was between them

They explained everything that happened up until that moment

Then the prophet asked the disabled: Ever since you have been disabled

Have you ever thought of asking your Blind friend or family to beat you with a walking stick before?

He answered: No!

The prophet also asked the blind person: If you had known that it was the water from toad’s eyeball that would heal you

Wouldn’t you have asked your disabled friend or family for it?

He also answered: Yes!

Then the prophet told both of them to embrace each other

They should forever be friends and never let anyone come in between them. Ever!

They were happy and started remembering their journey together

The prophet then said to them that a little bit about Olodumare had been revealed to them

scully95:


When writing in English, I think we can take a little time off to stress the fact that Olodumare (GOD) is bigger than Irumoles via an open and close bracket or rather in full like this "GOD/God, the creator of Heavens and Earth".. (Olodumare) and stressing an Orisa using "God, the God of River", (Irumole) while also reffering to Irunmole we could also do the same by stressing it in an open and clossed bracket to make your reader understand the huge difference between the two. Remember what matters here is your reader understanding and knowing very well the huge difference between the two and it does not matter here since the English language is not our oral Language. Naturally, writing their names in Yoruba langauge is enough to understand they are not in the same position.

I also think instead of using God for the Iruomles, you can write their names which is perfect. But whenever anyone wants to use God, it should always be regarded with a capital letter G.

I would honestly preffer just using full capital letters(GOD) to regard Olodumare while use only G (God) to regard Irumole(s) or just write the the Orisa name. We have about 401 of them. You are free to even choose anyone from the 401 and live their lifestyles.

And this is why the Yoruba only believes in heaven. Yoruba believes heaven is our second home and when we pass on, we do return. Notice names like Babatunde and Yetunde. These are names given to a new Born baby that just lost a father/grandfather or Mother/grandmother.

For example if my Father just died and the next person i give birth to happens to be a boy. Then I would give that Boy Babatunde.. If i just lost my mum and next Baby is a Daughter, Yetunde. Meaning mom returned or my late father has just returned from heaven.


This is the idea that was re-modified and re-sold back to us in the god of hebrew. Here they added hell to it and Satan.

The simple truth is Esu in Yoruba traditional religion of destiny, Ifa is not their Satan. Esu is messenger of Olodmare that helps Baba'alawo to interprete Ifa. It's believed that Ifa was given to Orumila from Olodumare for Omo Eniyan to use as Guidance.

Ifa here has more than 7000 verses/stories known as Odu ifa. This again was re-modified by the foreigners to use as Quran or Bible. Ifa has more verses than the verses in Quran for example.

Ifa has 16 stanzas. Each stanza has about 495 verses. ( known as Odus/Odu Ifa/Stories). Baba’alawo or Iyalawo (Ifa Chief priest or priestess ) is required to know by heart a lot of these verses (just like the Imam studying the verses in the Quran or Pastor studying verses and chapters in the Bible in Eastern and Western civilizations, Islam and Christianity respectively).


See Example of an Ifa verse bellow. 495 x 16 = 7920 Verses a Baba’alawo or Iyanifa must learn or know by heart. See example of a verse or odu (Ogbe Rikusa) . But usually a Baba’alawo or an Iyanifa learns the top 200 by heart which encompases major problems or stories omo Eniyan has. This again is the same ideal re-produced in the Bible and Quran which are both religions of Abraham. They copied our old tradition.
Ile ife is older than Palmyra of Syria. 10,000 BC. Palmyra is 9,000 BC.




Odu Ogbe rikusa

The blind and disabled are friends

The disabled person asked the blind person:

Is this how we are going to die of suffering?

The blind responded: what shall we do about it?

The disabled answered: let us go and ask a wise person what to do.

They inquired of the wise person: will we ever walk or see again?

The wise person queried: Have you ever walked or seen before?

They answered: never!

They were asked to perform an offering

They were perplexed: What is he talking about?

Can we afford to pay for any offering?

The disabled suggested suicide as an option

Days latter the disabled repeated the suggestion to the blind person

The blind responded: you know I cannot see, so whatever you suggest is okay

We have been friends for too long and I could not live without you

The disabled responded: I know a place we can go to kill ourselves

The disabled person added: when we get to the water, I will just jump into it

The blind person questioned: how would I know?

The disabled said: I will bring you close to the edge so when you hear the loud sound of falling, you know it is time to jump

On the second day they decided to end it all

The disabled led the blind to the water

As they neared the edge the disabled lamented and threw a huge stone into the water

The disabled hoped he tricked the blind person to jump

But the blind person was so worried and upset that threw his walking stick around and hit the disabled person

The disabled person shrieked!

The blind person was so surprised

He asked the disabled why he wanted to trick him to die

The disabled apologized and the blind person could not be too upset

Did he not need the disabled to bring him home?

As they continued along in the bush they came across some food

Cooking the meat seemed to take too long. but

The blind realized that each time the disabled spoke it sounded as if he was eating

Since the blind person kept asking the disabled person for food, the disabled gave the blind a toad to eat instead

The blind could not see so he put the toad’s head in his mouth

As he bit the toad the water from the toad’s eyeball broke and splashed into the blind’s eye

He regained sight!

As he regained sight the blind took over the cooking and gave the toad to the disabled person to eat

He then went to the waterside to drink

But he told the disabled person that if the disabled person was still present when he returned, the disabled person had only three options:

To be pushed into the water

To be beaten

To be taken into the forest and abandoned

The disabled person chose to be beaten

The previously blind person went to beat the disabled on his head

The disabled suggested being beaten on the buttocks, knowing that from the waist down was paralyzed so he would not feel any pain

As the previously blind started to beat his buttocks with a walking stick

The disabled stood up and started running!

But the two of them were so carried away they could not see what was happening to both of them

As the disabled was running and the blind chasing

They ran into a prophet

The disabled screamed for help

Help me Baba!

The prophet asked them what the problem was between them

They explained everything that happened up until that moment

Then the prophet asked the disabled: Ever since you have been disabled

Have you ever thought of asking your Blind friend or family to beat you with a walking stick before?

He answered: No!

The prophet also asked the blind person: If you had known that it was the water from toad’s eyeball that would heal you

Wouldn’t you have asked your disabled friend or family for it?

He also answered: Yes!

Then the prophet told both of them to embrace each other

They should forever be friends and never let anyone come in between them. Ever!

They were happy and started remembering their journey together

The prophet then said to them that a little bit about Olodumare had been revealed to them

Nice!

I should add that:

1. Esu is indeed the messenger of Olodumare but he does not help Babalawo interprete Ifa. He only carries messages and etutu to Olodumare after he must have been given his own personal share.

2. Ifa has 16 major odus. Each 16 odu is then merged with the remaining 15 to create what is known as Omo Odu whichs sums to a total of 240 added to 16 brings it to 256 odus totally.

3. Each Odu of 256 is said to contain about 600 verses each. 256 X 600 = ?

4. It is Iyanifa not Iyalawo.

5. One is not expected to learn the total 600 verses to each of the 256 Odu. Basically, we learn as many verses as possible in the first 16 odus from Eji Ogbe to Ofun Meji. Then as for the other 240 odus, we try to learn as much as 10 verses for each. No need to be able to recite, just know the ase/warnings in these odu & the necessary ebo that comes with each.

6. In Yoruba belief, upon death each person goes to orun to join one's deceased family members/relatives and the extent of our good or bad on earth determines our standard of living but we always come back to earth but born into our family lineage over & over again.

7. If a baby is born and the father/grand father dies then such a boy is called Babarinsa (can't recall the female version is) but if a parent or grandparent passed during the pregnancy of such a baby then Babatunde/Iyabo.

9jacrip:



Nice!

I should add that:

[quote author=9jacrip post=45582486]
1. Esu is indeed the messenger of Olodumare but he does not help Babalawo interprete Ifa. He only carries messages and etutu to Olodumare after he must have been given his own personal share.

Esu helps Baba'alawo or Iyanifa to interprete Ifa in a way that it delivers the message to omo Eniyan and it usually comes plain without minding who the person is. He's the first law enforcer of Eledumare as confirmed by schollars. ( I strongly believe this is why we do not have anything like hell fire because Esu Ensures laws/Guidance in Ifa are followed) This is where missionaries played smart and turned Esu to their Satan since Esu blocks human plans. Humans or Omoeniyan are evil, Esu blocks Evil plans of Omoeniyan. This is how they managed to sell the satan is Esu in the Bible Brainwash to Yoruba Christians. ANy christian thinks Esu is Satan. The truth is Esu is not Satan in the Bible.

This Brainwash the missionaries did perfectly.

He's the first law enforcer of Eledumare and this way of life were embeded in Ifa as Guidance. He follows everything all the messages in Ifa strictly as beliefed to be handed over to Orumila from Eleduamare.

9jacrip:

2. Ifa has 16 major odus. Each 16 odu is then merged with the remaining 15 to create what is known as Omo Odu whichs sums to a total of 240 added to 16 brings it to 256 odus totally.

Yes, you are right about it , these are the major but total of ifa verses or stories are more ethan that right ? It's more than 7000 and also confirmed by Alafin of Oyo and other schollars arround the globe.

9jacrip:

3. Each Odu of 256 is said to contain about 600 verses each. 256 X 600 = ?

153,600 verses. Can you confirm the source to this particularly ?

What is Alafin of Oyo here trying to say ? I believe he knows more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk3UW3Iiz2c

scully95


1. Esu does not help us interpret Ifa. If Esu interprets Ifa then why would a Babalawo spemd more than a decade of his life under an Oluwo learning Ifa & interpretations?

2. Esu (& Ogun) are ever present in the home or shrine of a Babalawo, why? For the former to take offerings to Olodumare and for the latter to make path for ease of prayers/etutu flow. They have nothing to with divination or interpretations.

3. Sir, our own Ifa in Ife is different from the one in Oyo & Ijebu, there's a history behind it. Maybe they call their Odu stanzas in Oyo (we both know what stanza means and it makes sense to refer to lines of the verses as stanza rather than the topic/Odu) & maybd it is 7000 in Oyo, who knows? I'm sure Ijebu has somethjg different too when it comes to total number of Odu and ese-Ifa. Only Ife & Ekiti have totally identical Ifa & practice the same way.

4. My source are my cousins in Iranje-Ideta - one is Kindindin Awo Iranje-Ideta (one of the 16 major Babalawos of Oke Itase & Ifa all over the world) & my Olu'wo who's also my uncle, Chief Gbawoniyi of Ife of Ile Jagudu

9jacrip:
scully95


1. Esu does not help us interpret Ifa. If Esu interprets Ifa then why would a Babalawo spemd more than a decade of his life under an Oluwo learning Ifa & interpretations?

2. Esu (& Ogun) are ever present in the home or shrine of a Babalawo, why? For the former to take offerings to Olodumare and for the latter to make path for ease of prayers/etutu flow. They have nothing to with divination or interpretations.

3. Sir, our own Ifa in Ife is different from the one in Oyo & Ijebu, there's a history behind it. Maybe they call their Odu stanzas in Oyo (we both know what stanza means and it makes sense to refer to lines of the verses as stanza rather than the topic/Odu) & maybd it is 7000 in Oyo, who knows? I'm sure Ijebu has somethjg different too when it comes to total number of Odu and ese-Ifa. Only Ife & Ekiti have totally identical Ifa & practice the same way.

4. My source are my cousins in Iranje-Ideta - one is Kindindin Awo Iranje-Ideta (one of the 16 major Babalawos of Oke Itase & Ifa all over the world) & my Olu'wo who's also my uncle, Chief Gbawoniyi of Ife of Ile Jagudu

You are right about Oyo following different lines. Stanza is not Yoruba. It's the same as Odu Ifa.

I see. I think by any standard, Ile Ife's Ifa should be the foundation of all Yoruba people since it existed 10,000BC and virtually all the kingdoms linked to it.
Why do you think Oyo has a different Odu Ifa ?

Is it like the case of Shia Islam disagreeing with some principles in Sunni ? And in the end turned Enemies ?

Just of recent Ooni of Ife Visited the Alafin of Oyo. This rarely happened in the past ?
WHat do you think ?



Is Esu an Orisa or Irunmole ?
According to Baba Olosun of Osogboland, there is difference between the two right ?

scully95:


You are right about Oyo following different lines. Stanza is not Yoruba. It's the same as Odu Ifa.

I see. I think by any standard, Ile Ife's Ifa should be the foundation of all Yoruba people since it existed 10,000BC and virtually all the kingdoms linked to it.
Why do you think Oyo has a different Odu Ifa ?

Is it like the case of Shia Islam disagreeing with some principles in Sunni ? And in the end turned Enemies ?

Just of recent Ooni of Ife Visited the Alafin of Oyo. This rarely happened in the past ?
WHat do you think ?



Is Esu an Orisa or Irunmole ?
According to Baba Olosun of Osogboland, there is difference between the two right ?

Stanza by definition consists of four lines, yes? Odu is a title with numerous verses; calling it stanza is in no way applicable but it is what it is, God bless the king.

Yes, Ife's version is the standard for all other variations.

The history is a bit long but I'll summarize:

There are 16 settlements in Ife & there are 16 Babalawo Olodu starting from Araba to Lodiagba.

When people were leaving Ife to found other towns, Babalawo Olodu from the section of Ife where people were to emigrate was appointed to follow the people from his section of Ife to serve as thr spiritual guide/Oluwo.

Ijebu people are from Iremo in Ife; Megbon Awo Iremo followed them.

Ode Oyo people were followed by Elesin Awo Ooni.

People of Owo were followed by Erinmi Awo Ooni.

Etc.

Some towns disobeyed & berrated their Oluwos. The Oluwos got fed up & returned to Ife then the two town began to have problems but their Oluwo had already left.

They decided to visit Ife to plead to their Oluwos to return but they said they weren't but they got a tray called ateno, poured Iyerosun on it, pressed Odu Ifa on it with explanations.

They were elated & on their way back to their towns, Esu who enjoys having fun with humans blew wind on these trays which wiped some of the Odus off.

On arriving at their various places, they had lost the actual arrangements of the Odus and they opted to work with what they could recall which created a distorted arrangement of the Odu & some of their verses.

It is not just Oyo & Ijebu, a number of Yoruba towns are mentioned in the verse.


There's no shia sunni type schism or opposition, whatever they divine has to result in what operates in Ife. It is like using a different method to arrive at the same answer.

Not all Orisas are Irunmoles but all Irunmoles are Orisa.

These first 4 deities are irunmoles: Ogun, Obatala, Orunmila, Esu (and now Oduduwa).

Esu is both an Irunmole & an Orisa.

Sango is an Orisa.

Obalufon is an Orisa.

Etc.

9jacrip:

Stanza by definition consists of four lines, yes? Odu is a title with numerous verses; calling it stanza is in no way applicable but it is what it is, God bless the king.


Yes, Ife's version is the standard for all other variations.

The history is a bit long but I'll summarize:

There are 16 settlements in Ife & there are 16 Babalawo Olodu starting from Araba to Lodiagba.

When people were leaving Ife to found other towns, Babalawo Olodu from the section of Ife where people were to emigrate was appointed to follow the people from his section of Ife to serve as thr spiritual guide/Oluwo.

Ijebu people are from Iremo in Ife; Megbon Awo Iremo followed them.

Ode Oyo people were followed by Elesin Awo Ooni.

People of Owo were followed by Erinmi Awo Ooni.

Etc.

Some towns disobeyed & berrated their Oluwos. The Oluwos got fed up & returned to Ife then the two town began to have problems but their Oluwo had already left.

They decided to visit Ife to plead to their Oluwos to return but they said they weren't but they got a tray called ateno, poured Iyerosun on it, pressed Odu Ifa on it with explanations.

They were elated & on their way back to their towns, Esu who enjoys having fun with humans blew wind on these trays which wiped some of the Odus off.

On arriving at their various places, they had lost the actual arrangements of the Odus and they opted to work with what they could recall which created a distorted arrangement of the Odu & some of their verses.

It is not just Oyo & Ijebu, a number of Yoruba towns are mentioned in the verse.


There's no shia sunni type schism or opposition, whatever they divine has to result in what operates in Ife. It is like using a different method to arrive at the same answer.

Not all Orisas are Irunmoles but all Irunmoles are Orisa.

These first 4 deities are irunmoles: Ogun, Obatala, Orunmila, Esu (and now Oduduwa).

Esu is both an Irunmole & an Orisa.

Sango is an Orisa.

Obalufon is an Orisa.

Etc.

According to Baba Olosun of Osogbolan, he said "There are differences between the two. Irunmole are the servants of Olodumare that She sent to teach us how to live good life and how to know how to follow Olodumare wishes on earth. We are following and worshiping them. Their number is fixed, only 401.

Orisas are human beings who became Orisas due to their exemplary feats performed in changing the lives of the people for better. Ifa says, Eniyan ni di Orisa (Human beings are the ones who become Orisa. Orisa has parents on earth. Orisas are also Irunmole followers. Sango, the Alaafin of Oyo is example of Orisa and he was also the follower of Sango Irunmole who descended with other Irunmole from heaven. Please let us know when to use the words Orisa and Irunmole when talking in order not to cause confusion and misunderstanding " Blessings. -

See more at: http://ooduarere.com/news-from-nigeria/breaking-news/irunmole-vs-orisa-what-is-the-difference-irunmole-and-orisa/#sthash.uf7SyRpE.dpuf

So your story of Esu here could be the one in Ile ife just as Sango in Oyo Representing the real Irunomle Sango.. And this is what a lot of people have misunderstood about Esu and the real Irumole Esu. The real irumole Esu is Olodumare's first law enforcer that interpretes Ifa and also makes sureomo eniyan lives an orisa lifestyle.

If we are to go by what Baba Olosun of Osogbolan said, then we can agree that Ooni of Ife is an Orisa representing Irunmole ? in Ile ife.

Same goes to Alafin of Oyo, represent the post of Sango. Just that the Sango most people were talking about was so powerful that he could influence people, hence became an Orisa in Oyo.


Your views ?

scully95:



According to Baba Olosun of Osogbolan, he said "There are differences between the two. Irunmole are the servants of Olodumare that She sent to teach us how to live good life and how to know how to follow Olodumare wishes on earth. We are following and worshiping them. Their number is fixed, only 401.

Orisas are human beings who became Orisas due to their exemplary feats performed in changing the lives of the people for better. Ifa says, Eniyan ni di Orisa (Human beings are the ones who become Orisa. Orisa has parents on earth. Orisas are also Irunmole followers. Sango, the Alaafin of Oyo is example of Orisa and he was also the follower of Sango Irunmole who descended with other Irunmole from heaven. Please let us know when to use the words Orisa and Irunmole when talking in order not to cause confusion and misunderstanding " Blessings. -

See more at: http://ooduarere.com/news-from-nigeria/breaking-news/irunmole-vs-orisa-what-is-the-difference-irunmole-and-orisa/#sthash.uf7SyRpE.dpuf

So your story of Esu here could be the one in Ile ife just as Sango in Oyo Representing the real Irunomle Sango.. And this is what a lot of people have misunderstood about Esu and the real Irumole Esu. The real irumole Esu is Olodumare's first law enforcer that interpretes Ifa and also makes sureomo eniyan lives an orisa lifestyle.

If we are to go by what Baba Olosun of Osogbolan said, then we can agree that Ooni of Ife is an Orisa representing Irunmole ? in Ile ife.

Same goes to Alafin of Oyo, represent the post of Sango. Just that the Sango most people were talking about was so powerful that he could influence people, hence became an Orisa in Oyo.


Your views ?

I still don't understand what you mean by esu interpreting Ifa but I'll let it be.

Irunmole - spiritual figures in Yoruba belief.

Orisa - Historical human figures pegged to the above.

E.G: Ogun, founder of Ire & Ogun the actual God of iron

Sango, king of Oyo & Jakuta

Osun, Sango's wife & Osun, Esu's mother.

Esu Ilare in Ife & Esu the messenger

Orunmila; Oke igeti, Oke itase, ado resident & Orunmila the right hand guy beside Olodumare.

I can go on but I'll pause.

On the one hand, historic human figures were pegged to spiritual characters from Yoruba belief or myth to create Orisa and on the other hand Orisas are attached natural phenomenon.

Separating Irunmole from Orisa = separating spirituality/myth from history.

Ooni is an Orisa on his own not representing an irunmole. He becomes an Orisa for going to collect power from all other orisas during coronation that takes weeks.

9jacrip:



I still don't understand what you mean by esu interpreting Ifa but I'll let it be.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhezxfNiDP8

Start from mark 3:56

Scully95

I see what you're saying.

No, he does not interpret.

In the picture below, there's the opon Ifa.

The opon has 5 parts to it though it may be circular, oval, spherical, square or rectangular.

There's always a head or face carved at the top which faces the direction of the person consulting the Babalawo.

The esu on that tray only brings or make sure the right odu of the person's problems or joy comes forth which the Babalawo then interpretes.

If using ikin & iyerosun, after greeting Olodumare, (Obatala), Orunmila, (awon Iya) - you'll in the process take some of the dust & sprinkle it on the face/esu before divination begins & anything is pressed on the board.

If using opele, you touch the face with the opele.

Esu is one of my favourite Orisas because he's playful & full of pranks - very fun Orisa.

You should see this movie on youtube: Igba Iwase (all parts), the person who played esu did a good job & I respect the man a lot for it.