i've moved the rest of the reply here as the issues hardly have any connection to this thread.

AnalyticEngine:


Oga, show me where I defined faith ...not to even mention that faith should not include works. Where did I air my perspective on faith apart from saying people succeed even without having faith? Quote where I defined faith.

And you just concluded that I have never attended crusades? Who says I have not been to the aforementioned churches? I have even attended shiloh...from a branch though not in otta. I have worshipped in all kinds of churches even winners. I even did wofbi, so don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. The problem I have with guys like you is your points are predicated on baseless assumptions. You think I haven't seen the so called miracles? Miracles happen. Man calls anything he cannot explain with his current level of knowledge miracle. For instance, magnets were formally called magic stones centuries before it was fully understood. There is definitely a process that lead to miracles and studies are currently ongoing to explain them. The truth is the world does not need empty talk. Even the bible says the kingdom of God is not in words but in power. Scripture must be seen to be fulfilled in order to compel men to believe. It is not just about the signs, but the signs are integral if one is to believe in what christians preach. We look for signs because the bible has said these signs shall follow them that believe. We have seen millions of christians who believe but no sign is following them. The usual explanation is the one you have iterated severally. And that is, "they are not true christians" According to the bible, there must be an evidence to what one has faith in. If God's power is truly available, it should be able to cure all kinds of sicknesses but when some are not healed, the most common explanation for people not receiving healing is 'lack of faith.'

Note; I have truncated some of your posts to avoid tedium of quotations.

When you ask (7. If God wants us to live by faith, why did he give us brains to think and rationalise issues? ), you have defined faith to be without thought or rationality. Thinking is work if you do not know. When you imply that faith is needless when one works hard, you have defined faith. Your perspective clearly states that faith should not go with work or thinking, that once you have faith you do not need to think or work hard, and faith will/should do the magic.
i did not conclude that you never attended crusades, i said "IF you need more proof, seek more exposure." If you think there are no miracles or that folks are lying about testimonies, go to where such testimonies are usually shared, simple. Go ahead and carry out personal investigations and interviews, or bring along your own issues and challenges to verify.
You said that "Faith rarely works for things that we can visualise" and that "The only sign that believers love to display is speaking in tongues". So i simply suggested that you go to places where they usually do more than speak in tongues, places where they talk about things you can see, financial miracles, health miracles like visible lameness, blindness, paralysis, stroke, tuberculosis, shorter leg, barreness, vomitting of hair, animals etc. Go there and confirm how faith and prayers work. Now, you are claiming that you believe in miracles. That miracles happen. You and HardMirror are the only two atheists on NL that i have read believe in miracles. Only that you give excuse that there will soon be another explanation apart from God. Well, help us tell your other atheists like thehomer my friend, or Seun, or Pyrrho, or frank317, or cloudgoddess, or realmindz, or accidentgenius abi wetin be that name, or that Job parody guy that i can't place his godforsaken name again, or sonoflucifer(thais one go believe in miracles jare). Most of them claim that there is nothing like miracle but that it is all scam, help us tell them oh. BTW, i have never said that christians who signs do not follow are not true christians. Yet another one of your mistakes.

GeneralShepherd:
The reason atheists continually demand regeneration of an amputee's limb as the ultimate proof of divine healing, is simply because it is scientifically impossible.

Among the plethora of amputees across the world, surely God will find one worthy of such a miracle in the future but till it happens, I remain an atheist because most miracles can be explained when placed under proper scrutiny.

So if it becomes scientifically possible tomorrow, you will stop demanding or what? You have no reason at all. How many amputees do you know among the so called plethora?

AnalyticEngine:


I had to stop living a lie. Let's call a spade a spade. How many times have u applied all the biblical principles and received results? When we don't receive result, we say it is because of our lack of faith or sin...or God in his infinite knowledge has a reason. If there is indeed a God, then we have a distorted view of who He is.

Bible principles is what i have been using to live my life for decades and it has been working. What are you on about?

AnalyticEngine:


Paul even explained to apollos the difference between water baptism and holy spirit baptism. More over, scripture says we are saved by grace through faith so we may produce fruits in keeping with repentance. I have prayed for people and obtained results which I now know better to be coincidence. The same faith I have to heal headache should be able to cure HIV and heal an amputee. But no. The only people who give testimonies are people who had stomach ache, head ache or one 1 million dollar contract which was clearly as a result of their hardwork, diligence and sometimes lobbying skills etc. Why not someone without eyes or leg. Why not someone with bow leg?
Jesus moved about preaching and healing all kinds of diseases. Christians today preach because it is easy. They don't heal people as they go on evangelism. The last evangelism I went for was a complete embarrassment. The prayer unit department (holy ghost annointed) gathered round a deaf dude for 12 hours praying for him to receive healing but guess what? He didn't! If only for once we could adopt a tabula rasa mind, think and ask questions, all these myths will not prevail.

But you recall when Jesus'disciples could not heal somebody? Jesus went ahead and healed him. That your prayer team could not heal should not hinder the gospel. Not everyone is a worker of miracles, or commanded to be. It is the CHURCH as a unit, the body of Christ that does greater works, not each individual.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Image123:


So if it becomes scientifically possible tomorrow, you will stop demanding or what? You have no reason at all. How many amputees do you know among the so called plethora?

Is scientifically possible the same as a miracle? So by your logic that Airplanes can fly after years of research is a miracle.

Do I need to know all the amputees in the world? Well if you have documented evidence of a regenerated limb please share with me. I'll gladly drop my net and follow Jesus

Image123:


But you recall when Jesus'disciples could not heal somebody? Jesus went ahead and healed him. That your prayer team could not heal should not hinder the gospel. Not everyone is a worker of miracles, or commanded to be. It is the CHURCH as a unit, the body of Christ that does greater works, not each individual.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

You see, Mr Image, don't misconstrue my silence as inability to find serious loopholes in your spiritual theories. I stopped responding to your mentions the moment I discovered you are an arrogant fanatic but u're still hell bent on mentioning me. For instance, even when I pointed to you clearly from one of your posts that you erroneously made some claims that were wrong (something about you mentioning a verse or so...can't recall exactly) instead of you to politely admit your mistake like an educated scholar would, you still tried to adjust the error just to feel good about yourself. I don't dialogue with people like this. This is the same reason you won't find me seriously dialoguing with intelligent parrots like Anas09
.

#Modified# You KNOW christianity is working for you, continue to be a christian. If it makes u prosper, continue. If the name of God or Jesus saves you from any oppression, depression or sickness, do what works for you. As for me when I fall sick, I will go to the hospital. If I want to get riches, I will work hard. I passed my exams in my undergraduate days because I studied hard. Reality works very well for me. I have seen as much people who don't believe in God do exploits as much as I have seen those who do attribute their exploits to God.

What biblical principles have you applied and worked? I would rather prefer that you stay off my mention

GeneralShepherd:


Is scientifically possible the same as a miracle? So by your logic that Airplanes can fly after years of research is a miracle.

Do I need to know all the amputees in the world? Well if you have documented evidence of a regenerated limb please share with me. I'll gladly drop my net and follow Jesus

Regenerating a limb is even too much. Don't go too far. They should present a documented evidence of a broken bone or spine that was fixed instantly and that will do. When ever you ask for evidence, they will evade you by quoting what Jesus said "a wicked and perverted generation seek for signs." My own issue is, isn't the same great power capable of healing HIV also able to regenerate a new limb? Is its potency restricted? Ask them for evidence of stomach ache or cancer healing, they'll be swift to provide you-tube videos of testimonies. We now ask for testimonies or at least a reputable documentation of an amputee's testimony and they keep hurling torrents at us saying that we should change our line of argument.

AnalyticEngine:


You see, Mr Image, don't misconstrue my silence as inability to find serious loopholes in your spiritual theories. I stopped responding to your mentions the moment I discovered you are an arrogant fanatic but u're still hell bent on mentioning me. For instance, even when I pointed to you clearly from one of your posts that you erroneously made some claims that were wrong (something about you mentioning a verse or so...can't recall exactly) instead of you to politely admit your mistake like an educated scholar would, you still tried to adjust the error just to feel good about yourself. I don't dialogue with people like this. This is the same reason you won't find me seriously dialoguing with intelligent parrots like Anas09

You overrate yourself really. i did not complain about your silence or garrulity. The post i responded to was written by you almost a month ago, May 26. If anyone was silent, it was me. And it's because i did not really have the time, neither was i noting faces or monikers in answering. You probably stopped answering me because i shut you up, which is the point BTW.
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

About "erroneously made some claims that were wrong", don't be ridiculous. One would think i blasphemed the Holy Ghost or said some big deal thing. If you cannot recollect, go back and read, at least it was your post. You QUOTED me and edited it without informing me properly. On NL and generally, if you quote someone, it is assumed that that is what the person said. In fact, if you edit your own post, it is normal to state it. But you did not state that you have edited my post, unlike here where you did the right thing by informing at the end that you edited/truncated. What was the deal that you are carrying on your head like world cup. You said i did not read a Bible verse, i said i have read it earlier, and showed you even quoting me in the verse. You made the mistake, you should have put your verse in your post, not in my quote. i do recall reading the verse, and i recall quoting a couple of verses. You exchanged the verses in my post/quote. What is the big deal about that, you missed the point which was that i was aware of the verse and had read it. If you cannot process that, too bad.

If you think christianity is working for you, continue to be a christian. If it makes u prosper, continue. If the name of God or Jesus saves you from any oppression, depression or sickness, do what works for you. As for me when I fall sick, I will go to the hospital. If I want to get riches, I will work hard. I passed my exams in my undergraduate days because I studied hard. Reality works very well for me. I have seen as much people who don't believe in God do exploits as much as I have seen those who do attribute their exploits to God.

What biblical principles have you applied and worked? I would rather prefer that you stay off my mention

i do not just think christianity is working, i know it works. Christianity never stopped you or me from going to the hospital, or working hard, or studying, or reality. It did not stop unbelievers from being rich/whatever you call exploits either. in fact, the Bible mentions and affirms ALL these things. All the biblical principles i applied worked, from that of healing, to salvation, to peace, to relationship, to good health, to long life, to success, to emotions. On your mention, i cannot really guarantee you that. Reasons being that i do not stalk or pester you, and it is not against forum rules to mention anyone. Also, i cannot go and keep/register your name under unmentionables in my brain or anywhere, i do not have such space for pettiness. If you see my mention, you are free to exercise your right of IGNORING, i do it all the time.

GeneralShepherd:


Is scientifically possible the same as a miracle? So by your logic that Airplanes can fly after years of research is a miracle.

Do I need to know all the amputees in the world? Well if you have documented evidence of a regenerated limb please share with me. I'll gladly drop my net and follow Jesus

You said that "The reason atheists continually demand regeneration of an amputee's limb as the ultimate proof of divine healing, is simply because it is scientifically impossible. " This implies that once something is scientifically possible, you may not disbelieve that God did it(a miracle). Your position is that all the healings and miracles of headache, stomachache, blindness etc are scientifically possible. Correct me if i am wrong, i often try to make some sense out of the senselessness.
When you assume naively that God has never healed ANY out of the plethora of amputees across the world, i thought you knew some of them. i did not know that you were talking by faith. Are you a fisherman, what do you mean by dropping your net?

AnalyticEngine:


Regenerating a limb is even too much. Don't go too far. They should present a documented evidence of a broken bone or spine that was fixed instantly and that will do. When ever you ask for evidence, they will evade you by quoting what Jesus said "a wicked and perverted generation seek for signs." My own issue is, isn't the same great power capable of healing HIV also able to regenerate a new limb? Is its potency restricted? Ask them for evidence of stomach ache or cancer healing, they'll be swift to provide you-tube videos of testimonies. We now ask for testimonies or at least a reputable documentation of an amputee's testimony and they keep hurling torrents at us saying that we should change our line of argument.

Duh, i gave evidence of four testimonies in the OP. Did you care to believe them? Did you not immediately disregard them? Do not change your line of argument, simply present sensible arguments.

Image123:


You overrate yourself really. i did not complain about your silence or garrulity.

Its one of my bad habits. I really need to stop over-rating myself.

Image123:


The post i responded to was written by you almost a month ago, May 26. If anyone was silent, it was me.

Great point you have here. I have been the noise maker.

Image123:

And it's because i did not really have the time, neither was i noting faces or monikers in answering. You probably stopped answering me because i shut you up, which is the point BTW.

Ahhh, I surrender! You really shut me up with your very intelligent and sound proofs/evidences. I just couldn't find a way around them. Why disgrace me like this now?

Image123:

1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

About "erroneously made some claims that were wrong", don't be ridiculous. One would think i blasphemed the Holy Ghost or said some big deal thing. If you cannot recollect, go back and read, at least it was your post. You QUOTED me and edited it without informing me properly. On NL and generally, if you quote someone, it is assumed that that is what the person said. In fact, if you edit your own post, it is normal to state it. But you did not state that you have edited my post, unlike here where you did the right thing by informing at the end that you edited/truncated. What was the deal that you are carrying on your head like world cup. You said i did not read a Bible verse, i said i have read it earlier, and showed you even quoting me in the verse. You made the mistake, you should have put your verse in your post, not in my quote. i do recall reading the verse, and i recall quoting a couple of verses. You exchanged the verses in my post/quote. What is the big deal about that, you missed the point which was that i was aware of the verse and had read it. If you cannot process that, too bad.

Baba, I agree with you. How could I have been this silly. Instead of me to echo to u that I edited your quote so you could avoid basing your analysis on an assumed premise, I misled you into thinking you wrote what you actually did not write even though it seemed to you like you wrote it, because you had read it before. Excellent line of defence. As you have said, it is really too bad for me because my brain faculties can't process such things. When my brain develops into a more advanced state as yours I will begin to reason as smart as u do.

Image123:

i do not just think christianity is working, i know it works.

I have edited my post, replacing 'think' with 'know'. I trust that would solve this paragraph.

Image123:

Christianity never stopped you or me from going to the hospital, or working hard, or studying, or reality. It did not stop unbelievers from being rich/whatever you call exploits either. in fact, the Bible mentions and affirms ALL these things. All the biblical principles i applied worked, from that of healing, to salvation, to peace, to relationship, to good health, to long life, to success, to emotions. On your mention, i cannot really guarantee you that. Reasons being that i do not stalk or pester you, and it is not against forum rules to mention anyone. Also, i cannot go and keep/register your name under unmentionables in my brain or anywhere, i do not have such space for pettiness. If you see my mention, you are free to exercise your right of IGNORING, i do it all the time.

Have fun man.

Image123:


You said that "The reason atheists continually demand regeneration of an amputee's limb as the ultimate proof of divine healing, is simply because it is scientifically impossible. " This implies that once something is scientifically possible, you may not disbelieve that God did it(a miracle). Your position is that all the healings and miracles of headache, stomachache, blindness etc are scientifically possible. Correct me if i am wrong, i often try to make some sense out of the senselessness.
When you assume naively that God has never healed ANY out of the plethora of amputees across the world, i thought you knew some of them. i did not know that you were talking by faith. Are you a fisherman, what do you mean by dropping your net?

The net is a figure of speech but you know already even though you are grilling me about it.

Okay let's not squabble over semantics, I'll rephrase.

' it is not yet scientifically possible to regenerate a lost limb'.

I actually thought it is pretty obvious to anyone why atheists always clamour for regeneration as proof of miracles because it is impossible to fake. Yes, I honestly believe that most so called miracles are not what they are portrayed to be.

GeneralShepherd:


The net is a figure of speech but you know already even though you are grilling me about it.

Okay let's not squabble over semantics, I'll rephrase.

' it is not yet scientifically possible to regenerate a lost limb'.

So, are you promising that when it becomes scientifically possible, you would stop asking for God to heal one with a lost limb?

I actually thought it is pretty obvious to anyone why atheists always clamour for regeneration as proof of miracles because it is impossible to fake. Yes, I honestly believe that most so called miracles are not what they are portrayed to be.

Blimey!! Most of the miracles i have seen are not fake, there was no need to fake them. When my eyes were going blind, who was i faking it for for crying out loud? When i got my miracle, it was clear to me and still remains clear till date. When my close relative walked about with a leg shorter than the other, who on earth was she faking it for? It was an eyesore, a challenge and a reproach to her and her family. We all knew it, we all pitied her for years. When she got her healing, it was also clear to everyone the change that happened. At that time, we used to live together, no story, no dem say, no maybe when i travelled or whatever. It was live and unforgettable. And so many more that i could talk of, both of myself and others. Nobody needs to prove miracles to you or anybody. For what exactly again?

AnalyticEngine:


Its one of my bad habits. I really need to stop over-rating myself.

Work on it, put in some hardwork for a change. At least, you don't pray, do you?

Great point you have here. I have been the noise maker.

Well, we would not call this confession time, would we?

Ahhh, I surrender! You really shut me up with your very intelligent and sound proofs/evidences. I just couldn't find a way around them. Why disgrace me like this now?

Don't flatter me, i'm not the devil.

Baba, I agree with you. How could I have been this silly. Instead of me to echo to u that I edited your quote so you could avoid basing your analysis on an assumed premise, I misled you into thinking you wrote what you actually did not write even though it seemed to you like you wrote it, because you had read it before. Excellent line of defence. As you have said, it is really too bad for me because my brain faculties can't process such things. When my brain develops into a more advanced state as yours I will begin to reason as smart as u do.

You missed it yet again, even while trying hard to agree with me. My analysis wasn't based on an assumed premise(that i already quoted the verse), my analysis was based on several scriptures, ESPECIALLY verses after the said verse i.e the TRANSFIGURATION event that followed. Read it again, you seem to suffer memory lapses, would you appreciate laying hands on you and praying for that brain? It's free, paid for by the blood of the Lamb.
It is not an assumption that i had previously read the verse, it is a FACT. Your question/confusion on the verse is not new, it is something i have been answering people with the same answer for many years. Your childish hope that you introduced me to the verse before is unfortunate, you should outgrow it. [size=14pt]You misled me into thinking that i quoted a Bible verse[/size], take it to the bank, or make a plaque stating that and hang it in your bedroom, seeing you see it as a huge lifetime accomplishment. You totally left the point made as there was nothing you could do against it than whine, wail and gnash teeth. you're not the first though, see your fellows here.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

I have edited my post, replacing 'think' with 'know'. I trust that would solve this paragraph.

This is good, you are learning. This is how things are done. When you edit even your own post, you should try to state so. Not to talk of quoting someone else and changing their post. i put in some verses, you deleted them and put another. Then you come feeling fulfilled and an achiever. That is not right.

Have fun man.

Sure thing. i wish you would as well.