Hi All,


I urgently need some advise on changing church. Sincere, honest, biblical and also from past experiences would be deeply appreciated.

I currently attend a church that preaches holiness but also stresses the need for ladies to do away with trousers, Jewelries and certain hair do and make ups etc. The reason i started attending this church was because i enjoyed their bible studies and in a short while, learnt alot about the Lord that i didn't know. In other words, i like Most of the message being preached. As a christian, i personally love the bible and like holiness messages. However, i don't agree with their beliefs about outward appearance. After several talks and comments by the leaders to me about these, Some of which i found personally offensive, i decided to write a note to them explaining why i don't believe what they are asking me to conform to. I did this with bible references to support my view and sincerely, i am deeply convinced about my stance and to conform to the church standard will be contrary to my conviction.

I also do not think that abstaining from jewelry etc is a sin. But i believe if God is indifferent about it, then it is a personal choice. I don't like the idea of being forced to "swallow" other people's belief or being treated differently because you don't believe what they believe. I have really felt unhappy and have considered leaving the church several times because i don't really feel at home and even the messages they preach sincerely doesn't excite me as it once did. I love thesame truth being preached but i find it more acceptable when someone else preaches it than from my leaders. I have also kept a distance from them and limited my communication as i don't feel at home and truly accepted. This feelings are due to some comments which my pastor has made which i believed expressed their minds. I have avoided church for some days and praying to know what God wants me to do.

At the moment, i feel OK attending church and fellowshiping with the brethren and i have repented of my bitterness towards the leaders. I recently read a sermon by one of my favourite preachers which talked about submission to church leadership as required in the bible. I was deeply convinced that not respecting my church's leadership on issues of dressing is contrary to scripture because that will be "lack of submission to those who rule over you".

Sincerely, i have no problem dressing the way the church requires and submit to leadership but i don't feel like doing it because i believe it can lead to legalism. So, i am thinking of moving to a different church whose leaders don't have this philosophy. I don't like the idea of having to change church again but i feel it's time to go. But i am confused!

Miracle,
  lemme say first off that I love your tone and attitude, keep it up! You spoke about submission to church/christian authority - a lost doctrine today because of the degenerate state of too many churches.

  I think you already have your answer:

Miracle85:

After several talks and comments by the leaders to me about these, Some of which i found personally offensive, i decided to write a note to them explaining why i don't believe what they are asking me to conform to. I did this with bible references to support my view and sincerely, i am deeply convinced about my stance and to conform to the church standard will be contrary to my conviction.

But i believe if God is indifferent about it, then it is a personal choice. I don't like the idea of being forced to "swallow" other people's belief or being treated differently because you don't believe what they believe.

  From all that you've said, it appears the leadership is unwilling to let go of their extra-biblical traditions - traditions which could run contrary to what we're taught in Galatians to avoid becoming "again entangled in the law" by following rules and laws that are supposed to be indicative of "holiness".

  I would say you should leave the church because their belief system is in disagreement with your personal convictions which you've been able to back up with scripture. In addition I would be wary of remaining with a church that imposes these kinds of rules on its members, because if they are willing to put on these kinds of extra weights, it would not stop there, they would soon institute other kinds of extra-biblical rules and regulations, burdening the members away from the freedom we have in Christ. All in all just let the Holy Spirit guide you in all things - it is not a mistake your heart and spirit has not been at rest in this church. Godbless!

Re: Changing Church: Advise Needed.
my point of view - is not bad going/changing from one church to the other as long as you don't join "Join Now!,size Doesnt Matter In Satanism" out of frustration

i quite understand your feelings about the whole issue

I can bet if u remain in that church, they will be seeing as u as a rebel and an unrepentant sinner,  there may also be certain things u will be deprived of., like being a church worker in the area of  praise & worship leading, choir ministration, ushering etc.

From what u wrote, i  also deduce that u no longer feel at home while in the church (maybe because u put on ear rings and stuff like that.) I’m not saying they are right or wrong o, for churches who believe in them,fine and for those who don’t, fine too.

My candid advice is that u set urself free & go to a church where u can worship God with all your heart,mind & strength if your heart doesn’t conderm u & you are sure they also preach the bible truth.

Afterall them no gum your yansh for seat there

If actually you are a true child of God and you have the spirit of God in you,then you have to allow the spirit of God to lead u.You did say that the word of God is been taught thoroughly in the church and within short time u were able to learn more.I have not heard of any church where people are driven out becos they did not conform with the laws of the church.Nobody can force anybody to accept what he or she doesn't want.Anything beside the word of God and our obedient to it is none essential.I will advise u to allow God to lead u.God will help u.

@Miracle85: Change religion. The litmus of a true way/religion is the unchangingness of its holy book. Too many versions, one different from the other is what we have of the Bibles. Further a catholic person living next door to an anglican church cant attend the service. And if any chance a baptist arrives in his own church for service 40 minutes into a one hour service, he leaves with everyone, without a make up of the 40 minutes he missed at the beginning. There is no order to the religion of Christianity, named after the title of jesus, who himself was not a Christian nor did he leave a word behind that christianity must be established, that would have nullified the way he worshipped while alive, reading in the Bible that he prostrated his face in worship of his Lord Who sent him, many times at the Garden of geshemane,


@Marymos: No one is God's Child. We are His creations, and we are our human parents' children, all having a Single Lord God Creator.

@Olabowale,i don't know from which dimension to respond to u.Ur response sound vague.Please what do u understand by salvation,regeneration,second birth and repentance.

Miracle,

I personally don't think you need anyone to tell you when to quit a church or what church to attend. You have God's word and you have His Spirit to guide you. But let me tell you this - EVERY church on earth has certain principles and traditions which are put in place either to prevent excesses or to promote orderliness. What I'm not sure of is whether they IMPOSE such traditions on all the members or not. The church you're referring to sounds like Deeper Life; but as far as I know, they don't force members of the church to do anything. I've attended their meetings on several occasions and I see people wearing trousers, jewelries and other things you mentioned and nobody flogged them or chased them out. And as I said earlier, if you go somewhere else, you'll still find some traditions that may not be exactly as the ones you're running from but are nonetheless controversial. For instance, I was shocked to hear that people are made to pay certain levies before they can use toilet facilities in Redemption camp (RCCG). And there was a time I attended a CAC church and discovered that men and women were made to sit separately. In the Catholic, Anglican, Methodist and Celestial churches too, there are certain rules and practices that may agitate you.

So, the bottom-line is: look away from the minor (traditions) and focus on the major - i.e does the church preach sound doctrines of the Bible that will help you live a victorious Christian life and guide you safely to heaven at last? If yes, then you should be glad because that's the ultimate goal of the gospel. But if the minor issues tend to hamper your spiritual life or if you are being FORCED to comply with them, then you can ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to make the right decision.

God bless you!

@Marymos: « #7 on: Today at 04:26:20 PM »

@Olabowale,i don't know from which dimension to respond to u.your response sound vague.Please what do u understand by salvation,

ransome and forgiveness, instead of punishment. Thats Mercy frm the Only One can Truly gve it, the Owner; God Almighty Who is One!

regeneration,

a new beginning, a clean slate, whereby all the sins are wiped off.

second birth

changing of way from evil to good, but the christians thing that they are children of father god, Son God and Holy Ghost God, almost a physical birth. this is the biggest crock of all time, next to Trinity making a One God, or death of an innocent man as a means of expediation or ransome of their sins, while the laws and commandments of God to human is made fun of.

and repentance.

Asking for forgiveness.


Now, all of these above do not matter if you fundamentally circumvent the very foundation for any and all of the above to be considered by The ONLY GOD, because you say God is 3, and that he did not create at least 2; Jesus and Holy Ghost. Lets start from there if you wanna discuss specifics.

olabowale:

@Marymos: « #7 on: Today at 04:26:20 PM » ransome and forgiveness, instead of punishment. Thats Mercy frm the Only One can Truly gve it, the Owner; God Almighty Who is One!

a new beginning, a clean slate, whereby all the sins are wiped off.

changing of way from evil to good, but the christians thing that they are children of father god, Son God and Holy Ghost God, almost a physical birth. this is the biggest crock of all time, next to Trinity making a One God, or death of an innocent man as a means of expediation or ransome of their sins, while the laws and commandments of God to human is made fun of.

Asking for forgiveness.


Now, all of these above do not matter if you fundamentally circumvent the very foundation for any and all of the above to be considered by The ONLY GOD, because you say God is 3, and that he did not create at least 2; Jesus and Holy Ghost. Lets start from there if you wanna discuss specifics.

plagliarism

plagiarized from where? I have not seen a bible in over three months since i left manhattan! while i was in manhattan, i do not look at the bible, even though i have one or two on the shelves. am muslim and what need is a bible, a torah or a hindu book, etc to me when Quran Karim and Ahadith/Sunnah books and Sirah and others are available to enrich me?

and why should the man asking for advise change from one source of heat, burn to another? will be not get cooked up and in the long run charred in the microwave, a terrible end anyhow, as what will be realised if it was wooden stove, electric or gas burner or oven, etc? he can avoid all of that by making a complete change, drop off the burden (cross) and free himself, once and for all, with the Mercy of Allah by accepting Islam. no one have to die for you and you dont have to cover yourself with some stale blood. or belief the unbeliable 3 ring circle as if one is in olympic symbol!

olabowale:

plagiarized from where? I have not seen a bible in over three months since i left manhattan! while i was in manhattan, i do not look at the bible, even though i have one or two on the shelves. am muslim and what need is a bible, a torah or a hindu book, etc to me when Quran Karim and Ahadith/Sunnah books and Sirah and others are available to enrich me?

i like to debate but i like it when it's even more constructive and ideal, from the response i get from you at all times i can easily grasp that being an indoctrinated and rigid muslim i not only leave you in despair but see you going down the drain of endless dungeon.

(1)You have not taken time to study the principles of the Holy Trinity at one point but you can sum up criticism.

(2) You haven't either set aside your time to study the life of Jesus Christ and compare it with that of mohammed and  see whose idea and principles justify the true ethical values of humanity or setting time aside to really invite the Holy Spirit into your life.

Pls answer this questions:

Pls Tell me any prophesy of mohamed that has come to pass and why he coudn't heal the sick during his days  and where is he now.

gen2genius:

Miracle,

I personally don't think you need anyone to tell you when to quit a church or what church to attend. You have God's word and you have His Spirit to guide you. But let me tell you this - EVERY church on earth has certain principles and traditions which are put in place either to prevent excesses or to promote orderliness. What I'm not sure of is whether they IMPOSE such traditions on all the members or not.

So, the bottom-line is: look away from the minor (traditions) and focus on the major - i.e does the church preach sound doctrines of the Bible that will help you live a victorious Christian life and guide you safely to heaven at last? If yes, then you should be glad because that's the ultimate goal of the gospel. But if the minor issues tend to hamper your spiritual life or if you are being FORCED to comply with them, then you can ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to make the right decision.

God bless you!

To OP, the quote above sums up the correct attitude to perhaps adopt in this case. Check everything against the unchanging standard of the Word, discard that which does not fit in. If in spite of this, 'they' make life unbearable then perhaps it is time to move on.

Peace.

@Skyone: « #12 on: Today at 02:44:20 PM »

(1)You have not taken time to study the principles of the Holy Trinity at one point but you can sum up criticism.

Whats there to study? Is there a way 3 different entities of equal mass and volume, be combined together while each remain complete, but the single entity they become is complete but also remain unchanged in volume and mass, as if its exactly like what each still remain to be after combination, and before the combination? What happens if one of them was removed? Shall say that the remaining two are still like if the third was always there, giving us the insight that the third was not important, in the first place? Thats what you have in your trinity!

The sad part is that you accept it, without thinking about it! Play this scenerio out with three apples in your hand and let me know what you get; for sure impossibility!

(2) You haven't either set aside your time to study the life of Jesus Christ and compare it with that of mohammed and see whose idea and principles justify the true ethical values of humanity or setting time aside to really invite the Holy Spirit into your life.

My lovely mother was a christian. I went to Christian school. I roommated with a Pastor in College. I married a christian. I have lived in Christian society more than I have ever lived in Nigeria. Most of my associates are christians! Is there anything that is still hiden to me in Christianity? Tell me now! What; the fact that all you have to do is to belief in the death on the cross and the risng up; friday evening to sunday morning is not 3 days and 3 nights, and all is okay, yet Jesus can't wholesomely guarantee all of the christiansParadise? What is it and whats the purpose of the death, if he cant guarantee everything, if you just belief in it, without having to do anything else, when he said "i do not know you, even as they say to him "lord we performed great miracles in your name"?

Pls answer this questions:
Pls Tell me any prophesy of mohamed that has come to pass and why he coudn't heal the sick during his days and where is he now.

Surah Rum's first few verses is a great prophesy about Rome future defeat of Persia, and it came to pass, already. Another is about the recovery of the body of pharaoh the tyrannical king who perished in the see, as a sign for later generations of mankind; Surah Hud, I think! The fact that the Bible will alway be corrupt, needing improvements always, and editions, revisions, etc and indeed versions are great proofs. By the way the Darby Publisher of NIV Bible are just about to begin a new edition, by theirgender appropriate editing just about to begin right now! And oh, JeSoul started a thread where NIV was hatcheed out against others, as more reliable, verses misssing in others, etc. And who will forget the catholic Bible fuller than the Protestants, yet the protestants call the catholics Pagans?

Andthere is a thread that was started by Pilgrim in 07, which was titled "the Great miracles in Islam" or something like that. I responded it to with many miracles and provided book/reference sources and websites for your education. I did it this week, say monday or thereabout. Go search for it, because I will not list any of the miracles here; except that when he cured eye problems, by Allah it was done in three different ocassions!

@Beefy23: « #13 on: Today at 03:31:31 PM »

To OP, the quote above sums up the correct attitude to perhaps adopt in this case. Check everything against the unchanging standard of the Word, discard that which does not fit in. If in spite of this, 'they' make life unbearable then perhaps it is time to move on.

Peace.

Gen2genius forgot to add "or when to change religion" to his response, above. But my statement is this; when you say check everything against the "unchanging standard os the Word" it gives me an idea, please correct me, if am wrong about it. The idea is this; are there many or at least "Word" that does not meet the "Unchanging?" If there is an "Unchanging please tell us since there are so many versions of the and editions and reeditions of the "Word" and t will be impossible that all of them are the singular "Unchanging standard of the Word!" I will like for sure to read your response.

olabowale:

@Beefy23: « #13 on: Today at 03:31:31 PM »  Gen2genius forgot to add "or when to change religion" to his response, above. But my statement is this; when you say check everything against the "unchanging standard os the Word" it gives me an idea, please correct me, if am wrong about it.  The idea is this; are there many or at least "Word" that does not meet the "Unchanging?" If there is an "Unchanging please tell us since there are so many versions of the and editions and reeditions of the "Word" and t will be impossible that all of them are the singular "Unchanging standard of the Word!" I will like for sure to read your response.

There's is no disputing the fact that there are different translations of the Bible around, there are however old manuscripts around to which reference is made to at least ensure that we have (in the English language) as close a representation of the original words as they were taken down. It's more or less a case of the aspiring Christian to at least know the background history of the translation that you eventually decide to follow.

The Bible clearly indicates that if a man (or woman) seeks God with all their heart, He will be found of that person - notwithstanding the so many opposing voices and philosophies that abound in today's modernistic world.

Entering into the Christian experience is not automatically open to everyone; John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The invitation is extended to all but not everyone responds to it in the same way - for some the whole issue revolving around different translations etc is enough of a point for them to stay away. I Peter 2 puts it this way: "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed[/size]."

The fact remains that there are aspects of the gospel that will keep some people out inasmuch as they have a preference for gainsaying.

olabowale:

@Skyone: « #12 on: Today at 02:44:20 PM » Whats there to study? Is there a way 3 different entities of equal mass and volume, be combined together while each remain complete, but the single entity they become is complete but also remain unchanged in volume and mass, as if its exactly like what each still remain to be after combination, and before the combination? What happens if one of them was removed? Shall say that the remaining two are still like if the third was always there, giving us the insight that the third was not important, in the first place? Thats what you have in your trinity!

Very low analogy and incompatible with my question. Physical awareness can not tally with the spiritual so get it, now the question again is (1) what does your islam say about body, soul and spirit even though i know is contrary and vague to the Christian's belief.

olabowale:

@Skyone: « #12 on: Today at 02:44:20 PM » Whats there to study? Is there a way 3 different entities of equal
My lovely mother was a christian. I went to Christian school. I roommated with a Pastor in College. I married a christian. I have lived in Christian society more than I have ever lived in Nigeria. Most of my associates are christians! Is there anything that is still hiden to me in Christianity? Tell me now! What;

Your life experience is an understatement compare with a friend of mine whose both parent are pastors yet lack absolute understanding of the principles of christianity and another example is Kazeem whose Father was an Imam but also lack the doctrine of Islam. Therefore you can hang around all your life with christians yet lack the simple basis of christianity, hence your response is insignificant here.

olabowale:

Surah Rum's first few verses is a great prophesy about Rome future defeat of Persia, and it came to pass, already. Another is about the recovery of the body of pharaoh the tyrannical king who perished in the see, as a sign for later generations of mankind; Surah Hud, I think! The fact that the Bible will alway be corrupt, needing improvements always, and editions, revisions, etc and indeed versions are great proofs. By the way the Darby Publisher of NIV Bible are just about to begin a new edition, by theirgender appropriate editing just about to begin right now! And oh, JeSoul started a thread where NIV was hatcheed out against others, as more reliable, verses misssing in others, etc. And who will forget the catholic Bible fuller than the Protestants, yet the protestants call the catholics Pagans?

All are pack of lies by your prophet but i'll advise you to read Dan 2:41-47 for the true prophesy, simple that's all i can give.

olabowale:

I will not list any of the miracles here; except that when he cured eye problems, by Allah it was done in three different ocassions!

Eye problems even doctors can do that, i'm talking about mouth opening miracles like raising the dead, walking on sea etc. Pls accept that mohammed is just an ordinary man used by the devil to deceive the world.

@Beefy23: « #16 on: Yesterday at 05:07:45 PM »

There's is no disputing the fact that there are different translations of the Bible around, there are however old manuscripts around to which reference is made to at least ensure that we have (in the English language) as close a representation of the original words as they were taken down. It's more or less a case of the aspiring Christian to at least know the background history of the translation that you eventually decide to follow.

Close is not good enough! But thanks for being honest. Unlike skyone.

Don't be in a haste to change church as the grass always looks greener in another Man's garden. Most churches have traditions that are unscriptural in any case.

olabowale:

@Beefy23: « #16 on: Yesterday at 05:07:45 PM »  Close is not good enough! But thanks for being honest. Unlike skyone.

In fact it would be nice if God the Father were to come down in earth in person and prove Himself that He exists and demand that we worship Him etc, this would put paid to all arguments about religion once and for all. However, He has made His Word available and decided that through the seeming foolishness of preaching, those that believe should be saved.

For some, that may not be sufficient or 'good enough' but that's the way it is. It's very much take it or leave it and then sit tight for the day of reckoning.

Olabowale, I sympathise with you because you seem to be as deluded as most other muslims are. What you people preach most times is a change of religion which, probably unknown to you, does not correspond to a change of heart, attitude and lifestyle. The destructive impression you have and try to pass to others is that once you're a muslim, you're automatically qualified for God's kingdom. But does it really work that way? Are there no muslim robbers, killers, rapists, hooligans, terrorists and the likes? What if Miracle accepts Islam today, does it automatically make her heart pure and her character pleasing to God?

It's high time you muslims got your priorities right. What people need is a change of life, not a change of religion! There are muslims who uphold the 5 pillars of Islam and yet live a sinful life and ask for forgiveness everyday. So, how does accepting Islam help anyone? That's why you hardly hear Christians preach the message of "accept Christianity" because you may be a Christian and still not be what God wants you to be. That's why Christians still preach to one another on the need to be born again; on the need to have the new life of righteousness and holiness which God alone gives to all who approach in truth and sincerity.

So, try to assess your beliefs and methods of propagating them and see if they truly have the potential to TRANSFORM people's lives or not. What God desires of us is to live a life that conforms to His words and glorifies his name, not merely following the tenets of a religion!

@gen@genius:

What if Miracle accepts Islam today, does it automatically make her heart pure and her character pleasing to God?

It will be a beginning to throw away old and rotten things; 3 gods in 1, a hung god, etc and a discarding of instructions from a prophet, while rejecting the latest prophet and relegating earlier prophets and their laws to nothingness. Look, i live in New York, where some hardcore gangsters now are great individuals because of their islam. They love God and for God they love creations! Now top that, since they are hopeful in meeting their Creator and seeking His favor, Mercy, Forgiveness, etc, depending on Him, alone!

It's high time you muslims got your priorities right. What people need is a change of life, not a change of religion!

Yet you have christianity as a religion, changing from what people will say is Judaism. You are a hypocrite.

There are muslims who uphold the 5 pillars of Islam and yet live a sinful life and ask for forgiveness everyday.

So is the case with every religion, including Christianity!

So, how does accepting Islam help anyone?

The exact same way Christianity does not help anyone, but then the case of Christianity is worse since Jesus said that not all who calls him lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, it means kingdom of hell. Then he said in the day of Judgement some will come to him with statement that they used to do pleanty of great Miracles in his name, and he will say they are known by him, meaning that they should be carted to Hell, sorry Fire lake!

That's why you hardly hear Christians preach the message of "accept Christianity" because you may be a Christian and still not be what God wants you to be. That's why Christians still preach to one another on the need to be born again; on the need to have the new life of righteousness and holiness which God alone gives to all who approach in truth and sincerity.

And after all you diatribe, you are still calling yourself; Christian! You cant fool me. No sir. I wake pretty early enough than to fall for that kinds nonsense. You are going back and forth and not moving an inch. Your whole concept is rooted in Christianity, believe it or not. But then it is not that but the fact that it is foundamentally flawed! So call it rebirth of born again, or even Judaism, if you will, a rose by any name is still a rose. In this case you are selling me a dafidile/ or pantsy! Its a weed which needs to be choked off and kill of in the heart!



]quote]So, try to assess your beliefs and methods of propagating them and see if they truly have the potential to TRANSFORM people's lives or not. What God desires of us is to live a life that conforms to His words and glorifies his name, not merely following the tenets of a religion![quote][/quote]What has islam done for me? I am a boy of the 60s and early 70s. And in those days, life was pretty wild. Alhamdulillah, I am a muslim. I know what Allah has done by my heart accepting Islam. Is there anything you can say to me, that I have not gone through it and almost forgotten it. Islam is a tamer of wild and bad characters. I see me as a better man by it. I love my mother, pray for my late father (ra), and all the muslims in my life and the lives of all muslims who have passed. I do not drink wine, smoke, drug, adultery or fornicate, and not a club crawler. Thank Allah that I am changing lives, including christian business associates who I will not allow to indulge in usury or interest where he and I are involved!

They can depend on me that I will not cheat them or leave them in the loosh!


This afternoon, I saw a program on USA; NYC ABC-TV, about Ethiopia's historical importance. I did not see it from the beginning, but they were showing a christian church called "Telabela" township, I think. Its an old city of probably of an early christianity practise still. It was at 3-4 pm New York City time and to my surprise it is interesting to se how they worship. I want you to do your own researh about it and you will be surprised how very different is from your mainstrean Christian protol it is. I summize that it was the way, very close how Jesus worhipped then, so were his disciples. And jesus must have found it so from how Zakariyyah and his son yahya (AS) worshipped, a process tat am sure Musa used in worshipping his Creator!

@Miracles85,If u were in the church i assume you are talking about yesterday,you will discover that the General Oversea of the church talked seriously about the traditions of men(laws,policies,edits,rules etc).He caution other leaders in the church not to magnify the tradition of men above the word of God.He said categorically that When a member of a church violate any of these rule doesnot amount to sin against God.These things are meant for administration and should not be our emphases when we go to worship God.Just like a previous poster said,they are minor and non essentials.Stay bless.I will appreciate it to hear from u.