Hello
Are you saddened by denomination infested Christianity But fervently love the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you hope and pray for revival? Do you believe the present denominational arrangement vitiates the Christian experience, short-changes the Christian and sabotages the Christian message? Kindly drop your thoughts and insights here.
Shalom

newbornmacho:
Hello
Are you saddened by denomination infested Christianity But fervently love the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you hope and pray for revival? Do you believe the present denominational arrangement vitiates the Christian experience, short-changes the Christian and sabotages the Christian message? Kindly drop your thoughts and insights here.
Shalom

Yea to a large extent I believe. But the scripture admonishes us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The problem we have today is the abuse of the assembling by some church leaders. Ordinarily it is biblical for us to assemble.

ANTI-CHRIST CHURCH ON THE PROWL_







WE WILL HEAR ABOUT YOU_

Menh am so fedup with it, it bores me, and denominationalism most times is lacking power and the Holy Spirit, without a any Form God's presence being available.

Thank you all for taking the time to comment. I can see we will have a robust conversation here. Clearly denominationalism has failed to represent, we need to know why. Is it a fault of the structure of church and corporate worship? Or something else? Comments welcome.
Cc honourhim, samueljonah

samueljonah:
Menh am so fedup with it, it bores me, and denominationalism most times is lacking power and the Holy Spirit, without a any Form God's presence being available.

That's because denominational Christianity is a sick perversion of the Christian church. By all parameters man leads and God is expected to follow but there is a road less travelled. May God enlighten us.

honourhim:


Yea to a large extent I believe. But the scripture admonishes us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The problem we have today is the abuse of the assembling by some church leaders. Ordinarily it is biblical for us to assemble.

Can this arrangement be called the assembling of ourselves together? Ourselves?? By using tactics of church growth strange to the bible the denominational system has gathered people that cannot be said to be ourselves. I'm afraid that scripture won't apply in their case.

samueljonah:
Menh am so fedup with it, it bores me, and denominationalism most times is lacking power and the Holy Spirit, without a any Form God's presence being available.

We must pray and speak out against godless denominationalism

newbornmacho:
Hello
Are you saddened by denomination infested Christianity But fervently love the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you hope and pray for revival? Do you believe the present denominational arrangement vitiates the Christian experience, short-changes the Christian and sabotages the Christian message? Kindly drop your thoughts and insights here.
Shalom

The first question is, what's denominationalism?

What's the origin?

Then this discussion will then have direction.

Aquiprsy:

The first question is, what's denominationalism?

What's the origin?

Then this discussion will then have direction.

Thank you. Denominationalism is used here to depict both the denominationalization and institutionalization of the christian faith which resulted in groups that have developed an acculturated rather than a spirit led Christianity.
In my view the origins are very early in the history of our faith, when men designed worship protocols, systems and structures. These structures outlived the good spirit and intentions of the pioneers and became ritualized.
Thats the life history of any group formed by men around these truths. They fossilize and become tombs harbouring the dead revivals of yesteryears.

newbornmacho:

Thank you. Denominationalism is used here to depict both the denominationalization and institutionalization of the christian faith which resulted in groups that have developed an acculturated rather than a spirit led Christianity.
In my view the origins are very early in the history of our faith, when men designed worship protocols, systems and structures. These structures outlived the good spirit and intentions of the pioneers and became ritualized.
Thats the life history of any group formed by men around these truths. They fossilize and become tombs harbouring the dead revivals of yesteryears.

Was there alternative to this mode of spread of the gospel?

Aquiprsy:

Was there alternative to this mode of spread of the gospel?

Yes I think there was. I think a close reading if the bible, particularly the Acts of the apostles reveals two streams of action coexisting side by side.there was the spirit led stream of action where the holy spirit virtually micromanaged the fledgling Christian movement. Telling them where to go, and who to meet and so on. An example is Philip the evangelist.
Then there was the man-led stream of action where men decided how to go by a combination of guesswork, popular vote, and natural logic. Examples abound as in the Jerusalem council of Acts 14, selection of apostle Matthias, etc. This continued into the later centuries with the human stream winning more people, and using their influence to spread their own narrative. A narrative which has resulted in a deeply human arrangement now called church. There was always an alternative. The spirit led way was our alternative.

newbornmacho:

Yes I think there was. I think a close reading if the bible, particularly the Acts of the apostles reveals two streams if action coexisting side by side.there was the spirit led stream of action where the holy spirit virtually micromanaged the fledgling Christian movement. Telling them where to go, and who to meet and so on. An example is Philip the evangelist.
Then there was the man-led stream of action where men decided how to go by a combination of guesswork, popular vote, and natural logic. Examples abound as in the Jerusalem council of Acts 14, selection of apostle Matthias, etc. This continued into the later centuries with the human stream winning more people, and using their influence to spread their own narrative. A narrative which has resulted in a deeply human arrangement now called church. Therebwas always an alternative. The spirit led way wasbour alternative.

Going by the nature and character of the Holy Spirit, he moves men to act, as against men moving the spirit to act.

I think in the period of waiting for divine direction, men who now on the basis of experience (just as Paul once gave instructions in his capacity as a leader), gave direction.

When you say church, do you have sth against that?

This what I keep talking about religion religion religion. it only brings about separation and nothing else. Division all over the places in the body of Christ.
smh.

Aquiprsy:

Going by the nature and character of the Holy Spirit, he moves men to act, as against men moving the spirit to act.

I think in the period of waiting for divine direction, men who now on the basis of experience (just as Paul once gave instructions in his capacity as a leader), gave direction.

When you say church, do you have sth against that?

I have nothing against Church properly understood, I have everything against human organizations that want to be recognized as church but are not.
We all would have been better off waiting for divine direction, remember how Abraham didn't wait and now we are burdened with Ishmael? Remember how Moses handed over to Aaron and came back to meet a golden calf?
That's the burden of my position. They that are led by the spirit of God, THEY are the sons of God. Without carefully following the spirit we end up with Babylon.

newbornmacho:
Hello
Are you saddened by denomination infested Christianity But fervently love the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you hope and pray for revival? Do you believe the present denominational arrangement vitiates the Christian experience, short-changes the Christian and sabotages the Christian message? Kindly drop your thoughts and insights here.
Shalom

Good observation but I have problems with your conclusion.
Lets start this way:
What is Church and Whats your concept/content of the Gospel?

enshy:

Good observation but I have problems with your conclusion.
Lets start this way:
What is Church and Whats your concept/content of the Gospel?

Thanks for commenting.
Summary: my ideas are taken from the Bible. As such I'm open to correction.
That being said, the church is the body of Christ universal as per Hebrews 12. Its a mystical, cosmic entity complex enough for only the most high to superintend over seeing that "the lord knows those that are his".
There is also a sense in which the word church has been used scripturally to describe local groups of believers in assembly.
As for the gospel it is the message of reconciliation of God to man brought by Jesus Christ and continued with spirit led elaboration by the apostles and their successors ever since.

newbornmacho:

Thanks for commenting.
Summary: my ideas are taken from the Bible. As such I'm open to correction.
That being said, the church is the body of Christ universal as per Hebrews 12. Its a mystical, cosmic entity complex enough for only the most high to superintend over seeing that "the lord knows those that are his".
There is also a sense in which the word church has been used scripturally to describe local groups of believers in assembly.
As for the gospel it is the message of reconciliation of God to man brought by Jesus Christ and continued with spirit led elaboration by the apostles and their successors ever since.

Fine!
Whats the purpose of the Church as it relates with the Gospel?
How does God set up the Church?

enshy:

Fine!
Whats the purpose of the Church as it relates with the Gospel?
How does God set up the Church?

The purpose of the Church is the perfecting of the saints that are saved until we get to the fullness of the stature of Christ.
God sets up Church by his own sovereign will and power. He saves who he wills and puts them in the Church.
It may be time for you to make your point!

Best regards to all who have commented!

All sincere and studious Christians must get to a point where we are fed up with denominational arrangements, because Christianity is supposed to follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, but the opposite is what is prevailing mostly today.

This should not be a problem to us who have discovered The Truth. Christianity should be as simple as Jesus Christ puts it, by summarizing the laws and telling us how to gather for fellowship without abusing the assembly (like 'HonourHim' pointed out):

...For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them - Matt.18:20 ....We are free to have fellowship everywhere we have opportunity, whether offline or online ....What matters is our motive (In His Name).

We are 'The Church' and The Church is The Mystery of God: ...And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord - Ephesians 3:9-11

That's why Ap. Paul always reference the churches in the homes of disciples - ....Likewise greet the church that is in their house - Rom.16:5; And and to the church in thy house - Philemon 1:2; ...The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house - 1Cor.16:19; ...Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house - Col.4:15

-We are all supposed to hold fellowships, where we share "The Gospel of The Kingdom" (Matt.24:14) in our houses and in every other conducive evironment. ...Anyone who claims to be speaking by The Spirit must be speaking Christ and nothing else!

-Peace.

newbornmacho:

The purpose of the Church is the perfecting of the saints that are saved until we get to the fullness of the stature of Christ.
God sets up Church by his own sovereign will and power. He saves who he wills and puts them in the Church.
It may be time for you to make your point!

Is denominationalism the issue or false teachers?
If you have so defined Church and Gospel, are there not denominations that are in line with your definition?

enshy:

Is denominationalism the issue or false teachers?
If you have so defined Church and Gospel, are there not denominations that are in line with your definition?

OK
This is where very careful discernment is required.my answer is NO. By definition a denomination cannot fit into my concept of Church. A denomination is a group which has acquired an identity of its own, separate from that of its members and as such can operate and have a life without anything controlling it. Instead it controls the people in it. Since we know the holy spirit can only indwell sons, humans, the life if the organization is clearly not from God . please look closely.
The Church is not an earthly organization, it is spiritual and is not bound by space and time, when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name Church happens. When they disperse Church disperses. To create an organization that retains its life and name and identity even after the saints are dispersed is to have created an earthly organization and that is not church. So the lord leads 3 of his children individually, to a place , where they meet and have a strong spiritual fellowship- Church. They disperse and that us it. Nothing says the 3 of them must keep coming there at that same time under a name and structure! When that happens , a human arrangement as opposed to a spiritual has been started. Except of course if the lord specifically leads the same to that place every single time !
My argument is that the leading of the spirit has been replaced by human decision making and that has resulted in organizations that are running in their own strength, with their own timetable - what I call denominations. People join churches, their children become members, and you have a human society growing by natural principles. But bible, Jesus himself said that which is of the earth is earthly .....and again flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This in my humble view is responsible for even the false teachers you talk aboutband the deadnessnof denominationalism. They spirit stays away when the flesh calls the shots. Can you imagine fixing a place and time and presuming God will always join you there when he has his own plan you refused to ask him about.
But why is this so important? These organizations firmed and operated in the flesh are the building blocks of Babylon, man's empire and God's enemy. Their later end is a fierce battle against God's authority and place in the earth.

newbornmacho:

OK
This is where very careful discernment is required.my answer is NO. By definition a denomination cannot fit into my concept of Church. A denomination is a group which has acquired an identity of its own, separate from that of its members and as such can operate and have a life without anything controlling it. Instead it controls the people in it. Since we know the holy spirit can only indwell sons, humans, the life if the organization is clearly not from God . please look closely.
The Church is not an earthly organization, it is spiritual and is not bound by space and time, when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name Church happens. When they disperse Church disperses. To create an organization that retains its life and name and identity even after the saints are dispersed is to have created an earthly organization and that is not church. So the lord leads 3 of his children individually, to a place , where they meet and have a strong spiritual fellowship- Church. They disperse and that us it. Nothing says the 3 of them must keep coming there at that same time under a name and structure! When that happens , a human arrangement as opposed to a spiritual has been started. Except of course if the lord specifically leads the same to that place every single time !
My argument is that the leading of the spirit has been replaced by human decision making and that has resulted in organizations that are running in their own strength, with their own timetable - what I call denominations. People join churches, their children become members, and you have a human society growing by natural principles. But bible, Jesus himself said that which is of the earth is earthly .....and again flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This in my humble view is responsible for even the false teachers you talk aboutband the deadnessnof denominationalism. They spirit stays away when the flesh calls the shots. Can you imagine fixing a place and time and presuming God will always join you there when he has his own plan you refused to ask him about.
But why is this so important? These organizations firmed and operated in the flesh are the building blocks of Babylon, man's empire and God's enemy. Their later end is a fierce battle against God's authority and place in the earth.

If this is your stand, I firmly disagree.
See Acts 4:32, Acts 2:44 - The New Testament/Early Church is a family and it is scriptural to operate as such. The bible calls us members of one body. How do the members of your body operate? Its not as you described. You have described the Jewish Temple and not the new testament church. Its not the Jewish temple where they just worship and leave.
As per leadership, do you see Pauls letters to the churches? do you notice the authority he had over the churches, Timothy, Titus and how he gave instruction on almost everything - This is the pattern Church Leadership.
I Cor 4:15-16 'For though you have 10000 instructors in Christ, yet ye have not many Fathers, for in Christ I have begotten you through the Gospel. Wherefore I beseech you be ye followers of me' . The Church founder is a Spiritual Father called unto Apostleship by Power and Grace - I Cor 1:1
Rev 2:1, angel of church is the minister of the church.
In conclusion, we are bound to submit to God if we are truly xtians. II Tim 3:16 says 'all scripture is given by inspiration of God...'
I am a Xtian ...Gods Word only is my guide!

enshy:

If this is your stand, I firmly disagree.
See Acts 4:32, Acts 2:44 - The New Testament/Early Church is a family and it is scriptural to operate as such. The bible calls us members of one body. How do the members of your body operate? Its not as you described. You have described the Jewish Temple and not the new testament church. Its not the Jewish temple where they just worship and leave.
As per leadership, do you see Pauls letters to the churches? do you notice the authority he had over the churches, Timothy, Titus and how he gave instruction on almost everything - This is the pattern Church Leadership.
I Cor 4:15-16 'For though you have 10000 instructors in Christ, yet ye have not many Fathers, for in Christ I have begotten you through the Gospel. Wherefore I beseech you be ye followers of me' . The Church founder is a Spiritual Father called unto Apostleship by Power and Grace - I Cor 1:1
Rev 2:1, angel of church is the minister of the church.
In conclusion, we are bound to submit to God if we are truly xtians. II Tim 3:16 says 'all scripture is given by inspiration of God...'
I am a Xtian ...Gods Word only is my guide!

This is my stand. Jesus told the woman by the well, the time cones when ye shall not worship God on this mountain or in Jerusalem, ... Venues and times and codes of worship are relics of an old disappearing order. God is spirit and we worship him in spirit.
Your model has resulted in the mess and decay we are seeing today because it is built on presumption , people wake up , start gathering, and invoke the power of scripture to legitimize their error, children grow up and naturalize into the system...where exactly is God in your model? My dear, God is organized out of your church system.
Now listen, the apostles were men of God , who were still human. We don't deify them. Have you cared to study how they operated? Did you see rooms for improvement? I do. In acts 14 they basically reached a compromise deal to appease the judaizers despite Paul having a clear leading. That's one instancewhere they were wrong,. Peter was wrong and was rebuked by pPaul. You should rightly divide the word of truth.
In I cor 14 Paul said when you gather and everyone of you hath a psalm, a tongue a revelation... Can you honestly claim this is how your church is?? How many people are brimming with tongues and prophecies etc to release?? If not then why do claim the biblical pattern.
I speak in love. The assembling of ourselves together , refers to OURSELVES. Can you say your gathering is restricted to ourselves?? How can when anybody can walk in? In God's model he leads his own to specific arrangements of fellowship. The unsaved can't follow such a leading and the Church remains pure.

My argument has been that the leading of the spirit has been replaced by human decision making , and that, that little leaven has resulted in organizations that are running in their own strength, with their own programs and timetables - what I call denominations. People start churches, people join churches, their children become members, and you have a human society growing by natural principles. But bible, Jesus himself , said : "that which is born of the flesh is flesh ...".!!! .And again , flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption...., and then "having begun in the spirit are ye made perfect in the flesh"? Gal 3.3
The spirit stays away when the flesh calls the shots- fact!. Can you imagine fixing a place and time and agenda , presuming God will always join you and bless your plans , when he has his own plans you refused to ask him about?? (Note: he even stopped Paul from going outside his leading to WIN SOULS several times! )
But why is this so important? Well, When presumption hardens it becomes rebellion. Organizations formed and operated in the presumptions and defiances of the flesh are the building blocks of Babylon, man's ultimate empire of flesh and defiance , the hold of every foul spirit and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird. The apostle said in her was found the blood of prophets and saints and of all who have been slain on earth. And In her later days in full maturity she will engage in a one world government, one world ecumenical religion, and finally she will galvanize a fierce rebellion against God's authority and place in the earth.
Never underestimate what damage the flesh can do. A.little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. May we continue to seek his leading and guidance .
In the extreme religious and other confusion of our day, we have a way out. He says to his own " ...your ears will ear a voice behind thee saying this is the way , walk ye in it " Is 30.21. Amen. May it be so. May I hear when your spirit speaks Lord. Perhaps he that doesn't have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one? The sword of the spirit is the word , the voice of God. Peace!
Copied with permission.

small small they are getting fed up. The thummim is getting fulfilled. I am glad.That's how it goes-from being fed up with lies of churches to being fed up with lies of fictional jesus. Then conversion from christianithief to an unbeliever follows.

#Proudly_unbeliever

tell yourself that if it makes you happy. But this is my message to you...repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...believe on the lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

Not that you have much of a choice though, ...." All that the father hath given me shall come to me" ...Jesus, ...and again you have not chosen me but I have chosen you "... Jesus....so, while I pray you receive Christ, I am more than happy to let you continuing in whatever blindness God may have predestined you to. Not all shall be saved, only the elect.

otemanuduno:
small small they are getting fed up. The thummim is getting fulfilled. I am glad.That's how it goes-from being fed up with lies of churches to being fed up with lies of fictional jesus. Then conversion from christianithief to an unbeliever follows.

#Proudly_unbeliever

newbornmacho:
tell yourself that if it makes you happy. But this is my message to you...repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...believe on the lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

Not that you have much of a choice though, ...." All that the father hath given me shall come to me" ...Jesus, ...and again you have not chosen me but I have chosen you "... Jesus....so, while I pray you receive Christ, I am more than happy to let you continuing in whatever blindness God may have predestined you to. Not all shall be saved, only the elect.

hmmm...sounds archaic. Christians of nowadays don't threaten us with a kingdom that is at hand. The likes of wilgrea7, muafrikacurser, analice107 have evolved. They try to reason God out now by doing 'research' not forcing an archaic doctrine down our throat anymore. Nairaland is a place that will teach you humility. Just kip rolling

otemanuduno:


hmmm...sounds archaic. Christians of nowadays don't threaten us with a kingdom that is at hand. The likes of wilgrea7, muafrikacurser, analice107 have evolved. They try to reason God out now by doing 'research' not forcing an archaic doctrine down our throat anymore. Nairaland is a place that will teach you humility. Just kip rolling

Hmm you do nairaland I do history. 2000 years and still going strong, evolution has repeated many cycles and has come full circle!!! History will teach you humility my dear. However if you are not of the predestined elect I'm happy to let you go where your creator felt was best for you happy unbelieving life my friend!!!

newbornmacho:

Hmm you do nairaland I do history. 2000 years and still going strong, evolution has repeated many cycles and has come full circle!!! History will teach you humility my dear. However if you are not of the predestined elect I'm happy to let you go where your creator felt was best for you happy unbelieving life my friend!!!

now you're talking, unlike when you started with 'the kingdom of god is at hand! repent!' This is how we roll on nairaland here, not by threats.

FYI, your history is just 2000yrs and it is even a false history. The true history since over 4 billion years is here: THE DOCTUFOS OF TRUTH. https://www.nairaland.com/2938907/doctrine-ufos

newbornmacho:

Hmm you do nairaland I do history. 2000 years and still going strong, evolution has repeated many cycles and has come full circle!!! History will teach you humility my dear. However if you are not of the predestined elect I'm happy to let you go where your creator felt was best for you happy unbelieving life my friend!!!

U get time o. You dey respond to this person.