Rilwayne001:


I never said I will be deleting it sir. I will have to create time to listen to it as I don't really have time for now.

Sorry for that misunderstanding then. I thought you've agreed with the order of those one way traffic dudes.

@lexicon and contact17, sorry, I am coming back for you

I was banned after replying Mrs contact. So I am Mr. "no retreat...no surrender". I just discovered the freaking robot removed its freaking shackles from my wrists

I dey come i dey come

Empiree:
@lexicon and contact17, sorry, I am coming back for you

I was banned after replying Mrs contact. So I am Mr. "no retreat...no surrender". I just discovered the freaking robot removed its freaking shackles from my wrists

I dey come i dey come

You see that? Thats the exact problem, was right about you, your aim is to win a debate and literally close your mind to anything i have to say, wonder why it took me long to reply your post?

Empiree:
@lexicon and contact17, sorry, I am coming back for you

I was banned after replying Mrs contact. So I am Mr. "no retreat...no surrender". I just discovered the freaking robot removed its freaking shackles from my wrists

I dey come i dey come

Shioor!!!

"And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them, they say, peace" [25;63]

Salam

lexiconkabir:


You see that? Thats the exact problem, was right about you, your aim is to win a debate and literally close your mind to anything i have to say, wonder why it took me long to reply your post?

Contact17:


Shioor!!!

"And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them, they say, peace" [25;63]

Salam

Yes, you have to kind of give up bcus you came up with condemning Sunnah despite showing you EVIDENCES from primary sources of Islam. In that case, I am duty bound to expose what you people trying to hide and making islam feels like dump dump religion. In that case, i can't retreat until i expose you. This is not about ego or winning. You keep saying that for emotional purposes. You have no right condemn what Allah and His messenger did not. You both denied ayat of Allah over and over again despite showing you CLEAR evidences. So this is not about winning. It is about FACTS.

You BOTH denied AYat of Allah and SUnnah of using HERBS. YOu attributed it to BABALAWO. I exposed you over and over until you both stylishly admitted. Readers can go through our timeline and read them

This was my reply yesterday to the sister before i was banned. STOP condemning what you don't understand.



I have always have hard time getting your point bcus of the way you quote me. So i might missed some of your post

Contact17:


Brother Em.piree please go back and read!

You made many accusations you ween't able to defend and then refused to provide evidence for your statements.

[b]You claimed that the Prophet and sahabas only used surah Al- Fathia as healing yet you didn't provide evidence for it.

Obviously, i wouldn't make this statement. unless i mistyped. You most likely misunderstood it. All i can say is provide the link where i said ONLY. Only is the key word here. I am 100% sure you misunderstood what i said. Until you provide where i said it, i wont worry myself.

You claimed that the Prophet didn't ask the sahabas to recite surah Yasin a lot because it would inconvinience them yet you didnt provide your evidence for it

I dont know how else to make you understand this. But truly, I enjoy both of bcus you make me think. Now let me explain myself again. I heard good intention when i said this earlier. What i meant is IF prophet(saw) had recommended reciting Yasin 200x for say for instance, just to ask Allah for FORGIVENESS, it would have been inconvenience for the Sahaba. because reciting this much is just too much for people. Prophet is prophet of rahman. Thats why i said he could not have recommended that much. It doesnt mean a muslim cant recite that much. It is up to individual. Now , if i do, it is bid'a?. You and the brother said yes. For me, it is no bcus Yasin the the word of Allah. It is the same with Taraweeh. Prophet(saw) did not want to place burden on muslims, thats why he stopped praying in congregation with them so that it is not made obligatory. But that doesnt mean we cant pray taraweeh or that it is bid'a to do so. Get the point?

You claimed that following the prophet would mean not seeking medical treatment yet you didn't provide your evidences whilst I provided mine.

I dont understand this at all. You understood yourself, i guess Maybe you should quote where i said this so that i can understand?

You claimed that the sahabas wouldn't have accepted Islam or would have left Islam if the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) had told them to recite surah Yasin 200 times they would have left it

I dont know how you think. Anyways, refer to my first quote up there. This is very simple thing and i dont know how you misunderstood it. It simply means the prophet(saw) would not want to placed burden on them OTHERWISE, they would have been bored to recite that much.

You made accusations against me that I denied a hadith a where the prophet approved of reciting Al- fathia for ruqyah as I didn't you haven't provided evidence.

quote my words please so i can understand what you refering to.

Once again you claimed I accused you of being mischievous regarding group dkhir whereas I didn't. My last post was in the morning

Maybe when i said 'you' doesnt necessarily mean you Mrs contact I dey gbadun you ma'am You making me think. It seems you dont have problems with group dhikr. But your brother lexicon provided a hadith with isnad reaching one sahaba that group dhikr is nonsense. Go back up and read his post. And i have quoted hadith of people making dhikr are called mad people (mischievous) which is what either you or lexicon called me. SO, yes, if I am MAD man for making dhikr or group dhikr or supporting is make me a MAD MAN, then, I am a MAD MAN

Dragnet also called me majnun sometimes ago. and i showed him the hadith. Since then, he disappeared from NL. Newmans did the same thing by calling waliy of Allah Mad people. I showed him evidence that prophet (saw) those who called them mad are hypocrites. I didnt call them hypocrites RAsulullah(saw) did.

Not once did you answer any of the questions I raised or provide evidence to back up your claims.[/b]

Maybe you should startyour questions all over agian. It ws difficult for me to answer you earlier cus you didnt quote me properly. But it looks like you getting used to NL now

Why do you go about making accusations without evidence or proofs?

Bring it on and let me see pls. I like to explain maself

I am starting to see you as a deceitful fellow and I find it difficult to take you serious. I never for once denied that herbs are a form of medication ( for someone who knows pharmacology, it would be ignorant of me to do so). I always maintained that what I was against was innovation.

No no no. i will NOT and will NEVer accept this. You said in the other thread that herbs is for herbalist and you brought definition of herbalist from dictionary that it is for herbalist while i provided evidence of herbs from Qur'an. Dont get me started again.


This is what yiu said,

Contact17:



For those who care to know.

herbalist -a dealer in medicinal herbs

Alfa- word for a Muslim scholar (and occasionally any Muslim) not just in Yorubaland but in Nupeland, Borgu, Igalaland, Ebiraland,

Therefore going from that, if someone specializes in using herbs to cure illness, shouldnt be using the title of an Alfa. Alfas aren’t specific to curing illnesses.

If you want me to posts evidences (to prove your accusations), I have no problem posting them.

Please do so that i can set my record straight. This Nairaland is in itself "encyclopedia nigeria" so thati can correct myself

Anyone else interested in whatever he is talking about can have a look at the thread themselves. He won't be able to make much changes because he has been quoted, and if he does, I have screenshots to back up. Empiree was the only one that mentioned babalawo in that thread. Perhaps he doesn't know the difference between a voodo witch doctor and a herbalist/alagbo?

https://www.nairaland.com/3295180/lets-talk-alfa-fulan-really

Let me also state the argument was never really about using herbs but about bid'ah (for example, Alfa claiming that using "ewe" and saying la hawla wala quwwata illa billah will cure something when the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) didn't claim that. No one has the rights to condemn what Allah and his messenger (peace and blessing be upon him) permitted. Just as no one has the right to claim what Allah and his messenger (peace and blessing be upon him) didn't claim.

My stance has been clear from the start. The conversation is up this thread as well. If indeed he provided any evidence it would be clear and if I denied any ayat from the Qur'an it would be clear as well. I won't be wasting time on baseless, useless and inconsistent arguments especially with fellows who are quick to make careless accusations they cannot back.

I will no longer make statements regarding this issue.
May Allah grant us guidance.
Ameen

Empiree were you banned again? I think you should mail the mods and tell them to retrieve your Post.

Okay, i have to be careful not to get banned again. Anytime i get banned, i lost interest to go further. I just leave everything as it is. I am not going to edit my reply to sister contact17. Thank God I was able to save it elsewhere before the ban.

Also, pls note that i dont hate either of you. This is educating ourselves. I believe that knowledge is NOT restricted to a sect. It is very important for me to post evidences on this issue. I have lots and lots of evidences in the kitab and Sunnah against you too but the ban really discouraged me a lot. There are many muslims here reading our convos. Some of them share my thought but they wont speak out for fear of being tagged. I understand that. I thank Allah for giving courage to do this. I cant keep quiet while Sunnah practices are being considered bid'a.

So I am going proof to both of you and your likes evidence of COUNTS, evidence of REWARDS, evidence of using BEADS or ROSARY. And evidence of GROUP DHIKR(loud/silence). These evidences are tracked back to the prophet himself(SAW) by 80%. I advice you to please be patient and not put forward your counterclaims until I am done. This way, i dont miss any of your questions, allegations etc.

I just have to do this bcus I dislike this sect movement discouraging Muslims from doing and that without knowledge.

Thank You

^^ Alhamdulillaah, for giving me the ability to clear the initial "proofs" you brought, i gave you a hadith WHERE UMAR IBN KHATTAB A RIGHTLY GUIDED KHALIF KICKED AGAINST THE GROUP DHIKR THINGY, Rosulullaah pbuh said we shold follow his sunnah and the sunnah of his rightly guided khalifs, of which i have given proof of Umar when he kicked against it, subhanallaah, Umar LITERALLY WHIPPED THE LEADER OF THE INNOVATORS, you can see how fierce he was when it came to innovations, why would Umar kick against group dhikr if they used to do it in the time of the prophet? Or are you going to discard Umar's opinion on the issue like you did to that of ibn masood? I have given 3 sahabas that kicked against the group dhikr thing, but you are still bent on threading the path of misguidance? Except if you dont believe Umar to be a rightly guided khalif – audhibillaah – you should follow his opinion on the matter, because the prophet asked us to.

Lastly Allaah says the guided ones are those who follow clear proofs when presented, and the ones who seek misguidance are those who hold on to unclear proofs to prove their points, your case is the latter, i gave a clear cut proof where 3 sahabas specifically kicked against group dhikr, whereas you brought hadith that can be "tortured" to conform with your ideas, hope you saw how i also derived meaning (that went against your reasoning) from the same ahadith you brought? This is exactly what happens when unclear proofs are used.

So once again i urge you to follow clear cut proofs and not proofs that can be used in anyway wanted, follow proofs that are straight to the point, and as it stands the proofs i brought against group dhikr are as CLEAR AS DAYLIGHT there is no way you can romance them to confirm with your own idea, i remind you again of the prophet's words "follow my sunnah and the sunnah of my rightly guided khalifs".

Thank you.

^^^

"guided", "misguided" have always been weapons used to determine who is on the right path and who is not. I see how they twisted Umar and Ibn Abass and Ibn Moshood (RA). And I can also see you trying to downplay hadith i brought fourth. Dont worry. I am not going to allow that. Besides, you left out CLEAR hadith earlier about Angels looking for the gatherings and assemblies of dhikr. I can sense you trying to downplay any hadith i bring fourth in the future as "tortured" to conform with my ideas. I can say the same about yours. Dont worry.

I also see you quoted hadith saying that sahaba have no knowledge of any of them doing group dhikr. That's a lie. I will proof they were. The least you can say is it is "Da'if". Far as I am concern, those who believe not in group dhikr have manipulated their hadith. Those who believe in group dhikr have also hold on to ahadith that support their view. Hence, it is not your duty to determine who is guided or misguided because they do not force it down your throat to join their group. They have evidence for "group dhikr". And I shall start bringing them up slowly. But i need to reply the sister cus hers is long due.

As for Umar(RA) whipping gathering of Dhikr, you are not the first to quote that. I am not unaware of it. It was quoted by a Nigerian sufi Sheik Daud Abdul Majid Eleha (Alfa Nla) and I believe the hadith has more to it than meet the eye. It has broad context. All i need is TIME to get them out for our readers.

I didnt downplay the so called hadith of angel searching for where there are doing group dhikr, but i brought another hadith explaining the hadith you brought.

I wonder the twisting that was done in the hadith of umar(where umar whipped the sick fellows that did group dhikr), or that of ibn masood or ibn abbass, or maybe there is another meaning for twisting, i wonder.

Lastly its true its not up to me to determine the guided and misguided, but the words of Allaah can.

I have always have hard time getting your point bcus of the way you quote me. So i might missed some of your post

Contact17:


Brother Em.piree please go back and read!

You made many accusations you ween't able to defend and then refused to provide evidence for your statements.

You claimed that the Prophet and sahabas only used surah Al- Fathia as healing yet you didn't provide evidence for it.

Obviously, i wouldn't make this statement. unless i mistyped. You most likely misunderstood it. All i can say is provide the link where i said ONLY. Only is the key word here. I am 100% sure you misunderstood what i said. Until you provide where i said it, i wont worry myself.

You claimed that the Prophet didn't ask the sahabas to recite surah Yasin a lot because it would inconvinience them yet you didnt provide your evidence for it

I dont know how else to make you understand this. But truly, I enjoy both of bcus you make me think. Now let me explain myself again. I heard good intention when i said this earlier. What i meant is IF prophet(saw) had recommended reciting Yasin 200x for say for instance, just to ask Allah for FORGIVENESS, it would have been inconvenience for the Sahaba. because reciting this much is just too much for people. Prophet is prophet of rahman. Thats why i said he could not have recommended that much. It doesnt mean a muslim cant recite that much. It is up to individual. Now , if i do, it is bid'a?. You and the brother said yes. For me, it is no bcus Yasin the the word of Allah. It is the same with Taraweeh. Prophet(saw) did not want to place burden on muslims, thats why he stopped praying in congregation with them so that it is not made obligatory. But that doesnt mean we cant pray taraweeh or that it is bid'a to do so. Get the point?

You claimed that following the prophet would mean not seeking medical treatment yet you didn't provide your evidences whilst I provided mine.

I dont understand this at all. You understood yourself, i guess Maybe you should quote where i said this so that i can understand?

You claimed that the sahabas wouldn't have accepted Islam or would have left Islam if the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) had told them to recite surah Yasin 200 times they would have left it

I dont know how you think. Anyways, refer to my first quote up there. This is very simple thing and i dont know how you misunderstood it. It simply means the prophet(saw) would not want to placed burden on them OTHERWISE, they would have been bored to recite that much.

You made accusations against me that I denied a hadith a where the prophet approved of reciting Al- fathia for ruqyah as I didn't you haven't provided evidence.

Please quote my words so i can understand what you referring to.

Once again you claimed I accused you of being mischievous regarding group dkhir whereas I didn't. My last post was in the morning

Maybe when i said 'you' doesnt necessarily mean you Mrs contact I dey gbadun you ma'am You make me think. It seems you dont have problems with group dhikr. But your brother lexicon provided a hadith with isnad reaching one sahaba that group dhikr is nonsense. Go back up and read his post. And i have quoted hadith of people making dhikr are called mad people (mischievous) which is what either you or lexicon called me. So, yes, if I am MAD man for making dhikr or group dhikr or supporting is make me a MAD MAN, then, I am a MAD MAN

Dragnnet also called me majnun sometimes ago. and i showed him the hadith. Since then, he disappeared from NL. Newmans did the same thing by calling waliy of Allah Mad people. I showed him evidence that prophet (saw) said those who called them mad are hypocrites. I didnt call them hypocrites Rosulullah(saw) did.

Not once did you answer any of the questions I raised or provide evidence to back up your claims.[/b]

Maybe you should start your questions all over again. It was difficult for me to answer you earlier cus you didnt quote me properly. But it looks like you getting used to NL now

Why do you go about making accusations without evidence or proofs?

Bring it on and let me see pls. I like to explain maself

I am starting to see you as a deceitful fellow and I find it difficult to take you serious. I never for once denied that herbs are a form of medication ( for someone who knows pharmacology, it would be ignorant of me to do so). I always maintained that what I was against was innovation.

No no no. i will NOT and will never accept this. You said in the other thread that herbs is for herbalist and you brought definition of herbalist from dictionary that it is for herbalist while i provided evidence of herbs from Qur'an and hadith. Dont get me started again.


This is what you said,

Contact17:



For those who care to know.

herbalist -a dealer in medicinal herbs

Alfa- word for a Muslim scholar (and occasionally any Muslim) not just in Yorubaland but in Nupeland, Borgu, Igalaland, Ebiraland,

Therefore going from that, if someone specializes in using herbs to cure illness, shouldnt be using the title of an Alfa. Alfas aren’t specific to curing illnesses.

So that's that you said ^^^

If you want me to posts evidences (to prove your accusations), I have no problem posting them.

Please do so that i can set my record straight. This Nairaland is in itself "encyclopedia nigeria" so that I can correct myself.

I notice you and lexicon are backing down on the issue of herbs after i put pressure on you with evidences from KITAB & SUNNAH. Our readers can go to you thread for details. Case close on HERBS.

I can see your comment was deleted again, and probably banned too, mail the mods and i would advice that whatever you are copying from the internet, paste it on your MS word first before pasting it here....

Thank you sissie.

@lexiconkabir, that's my post above your last post that got me banned 3x. So it shows i was not copying and pasting from internet as you alleged. It was my reply to contact17.

I was going to give up if it was not restored.

Empiree:
Thank you sissie.

@lexiconk.abir, that's my post above your last post that got me banned 3x. So it shows i was not copying and pasting from internet as you alleged. It was my reply to conta.ct17.

I was going to give up if it was not restored.

Ok, so bring your other "proofs" for group dhikr, and be careful this time not to get banned, i dont want to be waiting again...but bear in mind that the ahadith of umar, ibn masood and ibn abbass are still on ground.

I notice you and lexicon are backing down on the issue of herbs after i put pressure on you with evidences from KITAB & SUNNAH. Our readers can go to you thread for details. Case close on HERBS.

Believe me, you have a hard understanding and i hope its not deliberate, bring where i opposed usage of herbs.

^ it is true you did not clearly or necessarily deny its usage but the way you went about it in this thread shows otherwise until you later clarified yourself. You did not clear yourself in the beginning.
https://www.nairaland.com/3295180/lets-talk-alfa-fulan-really

Plus how you denied the phrase in 18:39 is a cure even though you out the word in my mouth. But i believe it can bcus Qur'an is medicine and healing but you are looking for specific hadith that said so. It is alright.

I am really discouraged by the bans. It confuses me and make the whole thing boring. I will only address one at a time from now on as time permits.

lexiconkabir:
@Empire.e here are your own salafs.


We used to sit in front of Abdullah ibn Masoud's (r.a) house before the Fajr prayer waiting to go with him to the Masjid. Abou Mousa al-Ash`aarie (r.a) came and asked us: 'Did Abu Abdurrahman (i.e. Ibn Masoud) leave yet?'

We answered: 'No.'

So Abou Mousa Al-Ashaari (r.a) sat with us waiting for him. When he came out, we all stood up. Abou Mousa Al Ashaari (r.a) told him:

"Oh, Abu Abdurrahman (i.e Abdullah ibn Masood) ! I recently saw something in the Masjid which I did not approve."

Ibn Masoud then asked: "What was it?"

Abou Mousa said: "You will see it if you stay alive..In the Masjid, I saw a group of people sitting in circles waiting for the Salat. Each circle is led by a person. And every person in these circles carries small stones.

The leader of a circle would say: 'Say 'Allah-u Akbar' a hundred times,' they will say Allah-u Akbar a hundred times; then he says 'Say 'La ilaha Illa Allah', a hundred times" they will say La ilaha ill Allah a hundred times; he they says: 'Say 'Subhan Allah', a hundred times, they will say Subhana Allah a hundred times.

Then Ibn Masoud said: "What did you tell them?"

He (Abu mousa al ashaari) said: 'I didn't say anything, I wanted to wait for your opinion."

Abdullah ibn Masoud (angrily) said: "Could you not order them to count their sins, and assured them of getting their rewards."Then Abdulah ibn Masoud went ahead and we accompanied him. As he approached one of the circles, he said: "What is this that you are doing?"

They said: "Oh! Abu Abdurrahman, these are pebbles to count the number of times we say Allah-u Akbar, La ilaha Ill Allah, and Subhana Allah."


He said: "Count your own sins, and I assure you that you are not going to lose anything of your rewards (Hasanat).. Woe unto you, people of Muhammad, how fast you will be doomed. Those are your Prophet's companions available, these are his clothes not worn out yet, and his pots are not broken yet. I swear by Whom my soul is in His Hands that you are either following a religion that is better than the Prophet's religion or you are opening a door of aberration."

They said: "We swear by Allah, oh, Abu Abdurrahman, that we had no intention other than doing good deeds."

He said: "So what? How many people wanted to do good deeds but never got to do them? The Prophet of Allah has told us about people who recited the Qur'an with no effect on them other than the Qur'an passing through their throats. I swear by Allah, I am almost sure that most of you are from that type of people."

Then he (Ibn Masood) left them.

Amr Ibn Salamah said: "We saw most of the people of those circles fighting us with the Khawarij in the battle of An-Nahrawan."

i.e All those people who wanted to do good deeds by innovating a practise in Islam, were fighting against the sahabas in the battle of nahrawan i.e. they were in the gangs/army of the khawarijites (accursed)



So as you can see, what you are doing now claiming that sins were less in their time compared to us is a fallacious analogy, ibn mas'ud knew it was wrong to prescribe counts by yourself, and he kicked against it, here you are doing exactly what those folks did and you claim its ijtihad?! I pray Allaah opens your eyes – Ameen. As you can see, many scholars of hadith graded it sahih!

Ma Salaam!

This is the reply of Alhu Sunnah Wajamah to the twist above. But first, let me clear something to you. Whether it is GROUP DHIKR(loud voice) or GATHERING OF KNOWLEDGE in the mosque, both can be disturbing inside masjid. It is just a matter of adhab is the reason they condemned it. It is not even a matter of Sufi or Salafi. Classical and contemporary scholars have said that it may disturb people who come to offfer salat or want to make their dhikr silently. I can provide evidence of this from earlier salafi scholars. That was the reason. Sheik Imran Hussein gave the same reason few years ago. It is common sense. But far as I am concern, you dont even know me personally. I am a private person. I have said this here many times. The last time i did group dhirk was 20yrs ago and even back then, it was only within family and once at masjid during Mawlud. And the gathering was both KNOWLEDGE and DHIKR. I am only defending the obvious and not specific group or people.

Here is Alhu Sunnah's response to the narration above.


Stay Tuned.....

lexiconkabir:

This hadith is a Mawquf hadith , that is , the chain does not go back upto the prophet, but stops at a companion.
This report is inauthentic.

Al-Darimi in the Muqaddima of his Sunan, narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-Mubarak who narrates from `Amr ibn Salima al-Hamadani. This `Amr ibn Yahya ibn `Amr ibn Salama al- Hamadani is da`if( Weak narrator). Ibn Ma`in saw him and said: "his narrations are worth nothing"; Ibn Kharrash: "he is not accepted; al-Dhahabi listed him among those who are weak and whose hadith is not retained in al-Du`afa' wal-Matrukin (p. 212 #3229), Mizan al-I`tidal (3:293), and al-Mughni fil-Du`afa' (2:491); and al-Haythami declared him weak (da`if) in Majma` al-Zawa'id, chapter entitled Bab al-`Ummal `ala al-Sadaqa.

Further, its authenticity was questioned by al-Suyuti in al-Hawi (2:31); al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal-Tahlil as cited by al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25 and 42-43).

Further, it is belied by Imam Ahmad's narration in al-Zuhd from Abu Wa'il who said: "Those who claim that `Abd Allah [= Ibn Mas`ud] forbade dhikr [are wrong]: I never sat with him in any gathering except he made dhikr of Allah in it." Cited by al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir (1:457), al-Suyuti in Natijat al-Fikr fil-Jahri bil-Dhikr in al-Hawi, al-Nabulusi in Jam` al-Asrar (p. 66), al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal- Tahlil as cited in al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25).


In addition, the Prophetic narrations affirming loud dhikr are sahih and innumerable, and definitely take precedence over a mawquf Companion-report even if we were hypothetically to consider it authentic.

Naysayers mention other pseudo-evidence against loud dhikr, all weak, such as the hadith "The best Dhikr is soft, and the best sustenance is what is sufficient," "One silent du`a is seventy times more superior than one loud du`a," and other da`if and maqtu` reports for which we are supposed to leave Qur'an and Sahih evidence and the understanding of the Imams! It is also against many authentic (sahih) hadith narrated in both , Bukhari and Muslim on the virtues and benifits of joining Group Dhikr.



Ibn.'Abbas reported: Dhikr (mentioning the name of Allah) in a loud voice after obligatory prayers was (a common practice) during the lifetime of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ; and when I heard that I came to know that they (the ) had finished the prayer.

(Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 1211)


Stay Tuned For More Narrations According to Alhu Sunnah. However, I think I should just quote 2 or 3 to avoid lengthy posts unless you drag it. They have proof for group dhikr but everyone twists to suit themselves.

Note, i have edited some of their phrases but i will still provide their link anyways when I am done.

lexiconkabir:
@Empir.ee here are your own salafs.


We used to sit in front of Abdullah ibn Masoud's (r.a) house before the Fajr prayer waiting to go with him to the Masjid. Abou Mousa al-Ash`aarie (r.a) came and asked us: 'Did Abu Abdurrahman (i.e. Ibn Masoud) leave yet?'

More Rebuttals By Alhu Sunnah Wajamah on the above hadith you referenced. You may click on your moniker here in reference to the narration you posted. Their answers goes thus:


Let us first state the opinion of the giant classical scholars about this narration. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Imam Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Imam Muhammad al-Munawi, Imam Ismael Haqqi and Alamah Alusi (Allah have mercy on all of them) have said that this narration of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) is unreliable as it goes against the Quran and Sunnah!

Imam Jalaluddin Al Suyuti

Imam al-Suyuti (Allah have mercy on him) said in his book Natijat al-Fikr (his work on the permissibility of loud group dhikr), “This narration from Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) needs exposition in terms of its chain of narrations and who of the hadith masters transmitted it in their works, and I have seen evidence that would disprove its being established from Ibn Masud.”


Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Imam al-Suyuti further goes on to write, that Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (Allah have mercy on him) transmitted in his Kitab al-Zuhd, that Husain ibn Muhammad related with his chain from Abu Wa’il that he said, “Those who think that Abdullah Ibn Masud used to prohibit the dhikr! I never sat with Abdullah Ibn Mas`ud in a gathering save that he did dhikr in it.”

See the underlined, you may twist t to mean it doesn't mean he is in the gathering of group dhikr even as clear as it is. I will try to post what classical scholars said or how they interpreted that. Point to note: How can Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) consider it a biddah to do congregational dhikr when he himself participated in this dhikr?!?! This reference of Kitab al-Zuhd by Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal has been quoted by Imam Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami and Imam Muhammad al-Munawi in their books.


Imam Muhammad al-Munawi

[size=16pt]Imam Muhammad al-Munawi writes in his book Fayd al-Qadir that this event of people being thrown out of the Mosque - there is no evidence for it. He further goes onto quote Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal from Kitab al-Zuhd that Abdullah ibn Masud used to sit in gatherings and perform dhikr in it.[/size]


Allamah Alusi

Allamah Alusi in his tafsir Ruh-ul-Mani has written on the commentary [Surah Taha 20, Verse 7: “Though you speak out loud, He knows your secrets and what is even more concealed.”] Allamah Alusi states that the incident mentioned regarding Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) throwing people out of the Mosque is not correct and the earlier Muhadditheen have all rejected it.


[size=15pt]He further writes that this narration conflicts against the many authentic narrations in support of loud dhikr and that Abdullah ibn Masud himself did loud dhikr during the time of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon him). He further writes, that if one does assume that such an event did take place, one possible explanation (if any) could be that he threw the men out of the mosque due to them being a nuisance by performing excessively loud dhikr but I still hold the position that the narration is weak and the chains are unreliable.[/size]



Imam Ismael Haqqi

Imam Ismael Haqqi in his Ruh ul Bayan rejects this narration of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) by quoting the following verse of the Holy Quran [Surah Baqarah 02, Verse 114: “Who could do greater wrong than someone who prevents access to the mosques of Allah, preventing His name from being remembered in them, and goes about destroying them?”]
Imam Ismael Haqqi goes onto say that how could Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) know this verse of the Qur’an and then possibly prevent people to gather and remember Almighty Allah in the mosques. He says the chain is already very weak and therefore it is unreliable but even more so this would mean Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) has gone against the Quran which is absolutely not possible to believe.



Even if this narration were established,i:e Ibn Abass kicked against dhikr gathering, it goes against explicit rigorously authenticated Prophetic hadiths that permit dhikr out loud as long as it is not excessively loud. These hadiths are given precedence over this narration when their indication conflicts.

We present here only a couple of hadiths from Sahih Bukhari to illustrate this point


Narrated Abu Ma'bad:

(the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas) Ibn 'Abbas told me, "In the lifetime of the Prophet it was the custom to celebrate Allah's praises aloud after the compulsory congregational prayers." Ibn 'Abbas further said, "When I heard the Dhikr, I would learn that the compulsory congregational prayer had ended." [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 802]


Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:


I used to recognize the completion of the prayer of the Prophet by hearing Takbir. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 803]

So point to ponder: Do you not think Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) was at these congregational prayers at which the loud dhikr would take place upon completion? So one begins to understand that the purpose (if any) of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) to remove people from the Masjid must have been due to reasons which collided against Quran and Sunnah, and not congregational loud dhikr which was a common practice during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon him).


As you can see, sincere readers should know that my narrations/posts on group dhikr traced back to the prophet himself by 90%. The evidences you brought against group dhikr are that of Umar and Ibn Mashud(RA). So fake narration about ibn Mashud is refuted unless you want me to bring more evidence against it. As for that of Umar(RA), you actually hold it to yourself to find out on what condition did Umar whipped them?. I told you earlier that Sheik Daud Alfa nla narrated the same hadith how Umar whipped those people but I asm not going to tell you why he said he whipped them. Whipping them does not suggest he kicked against group dhikr but something else which you and I should research for academic purposes. Otherwise, it has to be thrown out bcus it is in conflict with many other narrations.



To be continued In Sha Allah.....

^

I made mistake where i said " i:e Ibn Abass" in paragraph 10. It was supposed to be Ibn Mas'ud

On Why Ibn Mosu'd Kicked Out The Group Of Dhikr In The Masjid, The Real Reason He Did That


I did not state the reason he did in my earlier post. Here it is(below). It would be cumbersome for me to post all the analysis and investigations carried out about the narrators you (lexicon) cited to discredit GROUP DHIR. Unless you want me to it, I shall do so at your request. But right now I am going to post just THE REASON he kicked against them.


[size=40pt]"[/size] Imam Tabarani also mentions this narration with another weak chain. He mentions it by the narrator Abdul Bari who is also weak. Imam Tabarani in his narration mentions the whole event of the loud congregational dhikr and how some people were thrown out of the Mosque. But Imam Tabarani also mentions an additional sentence. He says that the people in the mosque were also telling stories of their old Arab ancestors and that Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) was not prohibiting the loud dhikr but he was prohibiting such story telling in the mosque of the Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him). This can explain the basis of the origins if any.

Sayedena Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) saw the people not doing dhikr but actually story telling and therefore told them to go out of the mosque because he could also foresee with his spiritual insight and knowledge that these people will join the khawarij as stated in the book by Imam Darimi.

Finally every single chain of narration that has been presented in this article leads only to weak and unreliable narrators and does not technically directly link to Abdullah bin Masud (Allah be pleased with him). Therefore these narrations prohibiting loud congregational zikr cannot be accepted, the chains have been broken, they are unreliable and therefore not authentic, therefore perform loud congregational zikr fearlessly, you are not performing a biddah![size=40pt]"[/size]


So This Is My Humble Submission On Group Dhikr So Far. Don't Know If It Is Necessary For Me To Tackle Other Topics: xyz COUNTS, Chapter or Verse, xyz REWARDS. I Shall Do That If It Is That Important.



Walaikum Salaam

Jabata Is A Copycat Of "Sheikh" Jabaru Who Used To Run His Mouth About Allah and His Messenger (sallaAllshu Alaiy Wasalaam) In The 80s and 90s. They Only Possessed Different Approach. The Two Were Extreme

Honestly, i have said to myself that i wont reply this, because its obvious youll keep doing what yorubas call awawi i.e looking for something to say(even when you are proven wrong), no matter the presented proofs, but this morning, i saw a thread where a brother was asking about group dhikr after salaah, and to my surprise you were there to spread this your virus to him, so i took it upon myself to expose you insha Alllaah.

note: I will only respond to the allegations that came with verifiable "proof".

Empiree:
This hadith is a Mawquf hadith , that is , the chain does not go back upto the prophet, but stops at a companion.

I have told you times without number that nobody claims the hadith is from the prophet, but we are trying to give the opinions of the sahabas on this issue.

This report is inauthentic.

really?

Al-Darimi in the Muqaddima of his Sunan, narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-Mubarak who narrates from `Amr ibn Salima al-Hamadani. This `Amr ibn Yahya ibn `Amr ibn Salama al- Hamadani is da`if( Weak narrator). Ibn Ma`in saw him and said: "his narrations are worth nothing"

These are Ibn Ma'een's words in arabic "laisa hadeethuhu bi shai`in" which would indeed typically translate as 'his narrations are not worth nothing" but More knowledge is required in the science of mustalah, and specifically the very exact and demanding science of jarh wa ta`deel, to properly understand Ibn Ma`een's statement. As Ibn Hajar pointed out in his Introduction to Fath al-Bari entitled Hady al-Sari (page 421), when Ibn Ma`een uses this term, he typically means that the quantity of ahadeeth that this narrator narrated was very small. Thus, the proper translation of this phrase should be, 'His ahadeeth are not that numerous', and what proves this point rather conclusively in this case is that Ibn Abi Hatim reports, with a direct and authentic chain, that Ibn Ma`een himself said of Amr ibn Yahya, this very same narrator, that he is 'thiqah' or 'trustworhty' (See his al-Jarh wa al-Ta`deel volume 6, page 269).

This makes me remember a statement of scholars of tawheed "every deviant group actually became deviants because of inadequate understanding of arabiyyah" {ive fogotten the exact wording of the statement}

anyway Amr being daif or not is not important as we shall soon see.

Ibn Kharrash: "he is not accepted; al-Dhahabi listed him among those who are weak and whose hadith is not retained in al-Du`afa' wal-Matrukin (p. 212 #3229), Mizan al-I`tidal (3:293), and al-Mughni fil-Du`afa' (2:491); and al-Haythami declared him weak (da`if) in Majma` al-Zawa'id, chapter entitled Bab al-`Ummal `ala al-Sadaqa.[/b]

Further, its authenticity was questioned by al-Suyuti in al-Hawi (2:31); al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal-Tahlil as cited by al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25 and 42-43).

Ok, lets believe Amr is "weak" for argument sake, there is another chain of the hadith from Qais bin Abu haazim, is he also weak? he brought the same hadith as Amr with exception of the last part that talked on them later being khawaarij, mind you shaykh Albani classed this hadith you are trying to fault as saheeh and he also graded that of Qais as saheeh! you can download this pdf to confirm http://ia601701.us.archive.org/9/items/gyhtg/gyhtg.pdf , its in arabic, read from page 465-468.

Further, it is belied by Imam Ahmad's narration in al-Zuhd from Abu Wa'il who said: "Those who claim that `Abd Allah [= Ibn Mas`ud] forbade dhikr [are wrong]: I never sat with him in any gathering except he made dhikr of Allah in it." Cited by al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir (1:457), al-Suyuti in Natijat al-Fikr fil-Jahri bil-Dhikr in al-Hawi, al-Nabulusi in Jam` al-Asrar (p. 66), al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal- Tahlil as cited in al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25).

on Imam Ahmad statement, nobody said dhikr is wrong but doing in unison, one voice, saying hu hu hu, he he he, is total nonsense and i brought a narration about imam Ahmad bin hanbali where he discouraged group dhikr, i bring it to you again;

al-Fadl bin Mihraan said: ‘I asked Yahya bin Ma’een and Ahmad bin Hanbal: ‘Indeed we have a group of people who get together and make Dua’, recite Qur’aan (collectively) and remember Allaah Ta’alatogether, how do you view these people?’

As for Yahya bin Ma’een he said: ‘They should read from the Mus’haf (Qur’aan), and make Dua’ after the prayer and remember Allaah individually to themselves.’

al-Fadl bin Muhammad said: ‘I said: ‘I have a brother who takes part with them.’

Yahya said: ‘Forbid him from that.’

I said: ‘He does not accept.’

Yahya said: ‘Admonish him.’

I said: ‘He does not accept. Should I boycott him?’

He said: ‘Yes.’

Then I came to Ahmad and told him similar to what I had said to Yahya and Ahmad also said to me:

‘They should read from the Mus’haf, and remember Allaah Ta’ala individually and seek the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah –sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam.’

I said: ‘Should I forbid my brother?’

Ahmad said: ‘Yes.’

I said: ‘And if he does not accept.’

[size=15pt]Ahmad said: ‘Of course he will Insha Allaah, since indeed this is an innovation,[/size] this type of gathering which you describe.’

I said: ‘and if he does not accept should I boycott him?’

Ahmad smiled and remained silent.’

you can find this in al-Adab ash-Shareeya’ by Ibn Muflih (2/75).

In addition, the Prophetic narrations affirming loud dhikr are sahih and innumerable, and definitely take precedence over a mawquf Companion-report even if we were hypothetically to consider it authentic.

yeah, but dhikr in unison, saying the dhikr in one voice, saying hu hu hu, he he he? i dont think so.

Naysayers mention other pseudo-evidence against loud dhikr, all weak, such as the hadith "The best Dhikr is soft, and the best sustenance is what is sufficient," "One silent du`a is seventy times more superior than one loud du`a," and other da`if and maqtu` reports for which we are supposed to leave Qur'an and Sahih evidence and the understanding of the Imams! It is also against many authentic (sahih) hadith narrated in both , Bukhari and Muslim on the virtues and benifits of joining Group Dhikr.



Ibn.'Abbas reported: Dhikr (mentioning the name of Allah) in a loud voice after obligatory prayers was (a common practice) during the lifetime of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ; and when I heard that I came to know that they (the ) had finished the prayer.

(Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 1211)


Stay Tuned For More Narrations According to Alhu Sunnah. However, I think I should just quote 2 or 3 to avoid lengthy posts unless you drag it. They have proof for group dhikr but everyone twists to suit themselves.

Note, i have edited some of their phrases but i will still provide their link anyways when I am done.

There is a difference in prohibiting loud dhikr (such as halaqas done to teach students and etc)in general and the action of Ibn Mas`ood (r.a). It has been clearly explained the reason and intention behind forbidding what Ibn Mas`ood (r.a) along with the other sahaaba forbade. It is not speaking of a general dhikr, rather an innovation in regards to both time, place and methodology.

shaykh ibn uthaymeen said:

[b]The Sunnah is to say it aloud, as the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) used to say it aloud. Ibn 'Abbas (radiallaahu 'anhumma) said: They used to raise their voices when making dhikr after finishing the prayer in the time of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam).

And if all of the people raise their voices, they will not disturb each other. But they will disturb each other if some of them say it aloud and others say it quietly. There is no doubt that it will disturb the one who says it quietly, but if he were to raise his voice like them, there would be no disturbance. As for those who are making up what they missed, they have brought it upon themselves; if they had wished, they could have come early and it would not have disturbed them.

And as I said, if all of the voices were mixed together, there would be no disturbance, even for those who are making up their prayers, just as you see now on Fridays; the people all recite the Noble Qur`an and they raise their voices but, in spite of this, the worshipper comes and prays and he does not experience any disturbance.[/b]

shaykh ibn baz also said;

[b]It has been authentically reported in the Sahihain (Two Sahihs) on the authority of Ibn 'Abbaas (radiallaahu 'anhumma) that in the time of the Messenger of Allaah (salallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam), it was the practice to raise the voice when making dhikr after the obligatory prayers; he said: I used to know if they had finished (praying) when I heard it. [1]

This authentic hadith and others which carry the same meaning, such as the Hadith of Ibn az-Zubair, Al-Mughirah bin Shu'bah and others all prove the lawfulness of raising the voice when making dhikr after the people have finished the obligatory prayers, so that the people at the door of the mosque or those near to it will know that the prayer is over.

But whoever finds people praying what they have missed of the obligatory prayer near to him, it is better for him to lower his voice a little so that he does not disturb them, according to other evidences. And in raising the voice when making dhikr after the obligatory prayers, there are many benefits, including demonstrating the [saying] of Allaah's praises for the blessing He has conferred on them through their performance of this great obligatory prayer, and it teaches the ignorant and reminds those who forget; and if it were not for this, the Sunnah would remain unknown to many people. And Allaah is the Granter of success.[/b]

So we aren’t debating loud dhikr or halaqas that are permissible from Sunnah , what we are debating is to associate or innovate a methdology that isn’t found in the Sunnah – for e.g the Sufi raqs or halaqas.

to be continued.....

if you recall when you brought this hadith;

Abu Saeed Khudri (رضی اللہ عنہ) narrates that Muawiyah (رضی اللہ عنہ) came to a group of people in the mosque and said, “… The Messenger of Allah (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) came to a group of his Companions in the mosque and said, ‘Why are you sitting?’ They said, ‘We are sitting remembering Allah and paying our thanks to Him for His favour of guiding us to Islam.’ The Holy Prophet (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) said, ‘Do you say that on oath that is what has made you sit here?’ They submitted, ‘By Allah we are sitting here only for this purpose.’ The Holy Prophet (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) said, ‘I have not made you take oath for any doubt but the truth is that Gabriel came and told me that Allah is expressing His pride on you in front of angels.

i replied with this;

Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “No people gather in one of the houses of Allah, reciting the Book of Allah and studying it together, but tranquility will descend upon them, mercy will overshadow them, the angels will surround them and Allah will mention them to those who are with Him.” {sahih Muslim}


Al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him) gave a beautiful explanation after juxtaposing these two hadeeths in his Fatawa Noor ‘ala ad-Darb, he said:

“The correct view concerning this matter is that the two hadeeths (reports) refer to those who study the Book of Allah together and recite it. Similarly, with regard to people who are remembering Allah, it is general in meaning and should be understood in the light of other, specific reports that describe the way in which dhikr was done at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his Companions. It was not known among them that they would remember Allaah, may He be exalted, by reciting dhikr in unison or that they read or recited the Quran in unison. The phrase “studying it together” indicates that this studying together is done one after another. Either one reads, and when he has finished the next one reads the same text, and so on; or each one of them reads one part, and the next one reads from where the first one stopped. This is the apparent meaning of the hadeeth. With regard to the other hadeeth in which it says that they remembered Allah, we say the same thing: it is general in meaning and should be understood in the light of the texts that speak of the specific way in which dhikr was done at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his Companions. It was not known among them that they would get together and recite dhikr in unison.”

I would like to add that this gathering is a gathering of Knowledge and not gathering to do dhikr(in the way you guys do today), because they STUDIED TOGETHER as the hadith implied. So this “studying together” can be related to the da’wah(preaching) many preachers engage in today, like the way people will gather in a place and listen to a teacher, telling them about the deen, so this is the apparent meaning of these two hadeeth. Whereas the “dhikr” you do is done without the aim of educating people about the deen, what is the essence of gathering if not for educating pople?

So we are not debating loud adhkaar which are required [size=15pt]in some particular situations[/size], rather i clearly focused on understanding the evil of innovation even if the intention was good.

will be back

Empiree:
More Rebuttals By Alhu Sunnah Wajamah on the above hadith you referenced. You may click on your moniker here in reference to the narration you posted. Their answers goes thus:

no you didnt get this from ahlul Sunnah scholars, i am guessing you got this from hanafi fiqh(run by deobandis - sufis) webpage, moreover the hadith i brought which you are trying to weaken, Imam al-Haythami brought this narration in his Majma az-zawaid (1/181) under the chapter title "Following the ways of the salaf" , Ibn Hajar brought this narration in Mataalib al-`Aaliyah (2998) under the chapter title "Warning others against bid`ah" so did Ad-Darimi mentioned this under the title "The Dislike of acting upon mere opinion"

Let us first state the opinion of the giant classical scholars about this narration. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Imam Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Imam Muhammad al-Munawi, Imam Ismael Haqqi and Alamah Alusi (Allah have mercy on all of them) have said that this narration of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) is unreliable as it goes against the Quran and Sunnah!

Imam Jalaluddin Al Suyuti

Imam al-Suyuti (Allah have mercy on him) said in his book Natijat al-Fikr (his work on the permissibility of loud group dhikr), “This narration from Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) needs exposition in terms of its chain of narrations and who of the hadith masters transmitted it in their works, and I have seen evidence that would disprove its being established from Ibn Masud.”


Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Imam al-Suyuti further goes on to write, that Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (Allah have mercy on him) transmitted in his Kitab al-Zuhd, that Husain ibn Muhammad related with his chain from Abu Wa’il that he said, “Those who think that Abdullah Ibn Masud used to prohibit the dhikr! I never sat with Abdullah Ibn Mas`ud in a gathering save that he did dhikr in it.”[/qiote]

All these scholars talked on loud dhikr and not group dhikr, of which i did not even talked on loud dhikr, i have quoted a narattion about Ahmad Ibn hanbali where he deemed group dhikr as an innovation, so obviously the same ibn hanbali cannot contradict himself, so my initial interpretation of doing dhikr in gathering still holds, note the choice of words, "doing dhikr (while) in a gathering" is different from "doing dhikr with a gathering".


[quote]See the underlined, you may twist t to mean it doesn't mean he is in the gathering of group dhikr even as clear as it is. I will try to post what classical scholars said or how they interpreted that. Point to note: How can Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) consider it a biddah to do congregational dhikr when he himself participated in this dhikr?!?! This reference of Kitab al-Zuhd by Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal has been quoted by Imam Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami and Imam Muhammad al-Munawi in their books.

you see the underlined are your own words, he never said Ibn Masud did congregational dhikr.

Imam Muhammad al-Munawi

[size=16pt]Imam Muhammad al-Munawi writes in his book Fayd al-Qadir that this event of people being thrown out of the Mosque - there is no evidence for it. He further goes onto quote Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal from Kitab al-Zuhd that Abdullah ibn Masud used to sit in gatherings and perform dhikr in it.[/size]


Allamah Alusi

Allamah Alusi in his tafsir Ruh-ul-Mani has written on the commentary [Surah Taha 20, Verse 7: “Though you speak out loud, He knows your secrets and what is even more concealed.”] Allamah Alusi states that the incident mentioned regarding Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) throwing people out of the Mosque is not correct and the earlier Muhadditheen have all rejected it.


[size=15pt]He further writes that this narration conflicts against the many authentic narrations in support of loud dhikr and that Abdullah ibn Masud himself did loud dhikr during the time of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon him). He further writes, that if one does assume that such an event did take place, one possible explanation (if any) could be that he threw the men out of the mosque due to them being a nuisance by performing excessively loud dhikr but I still hold the position that the narration is weak and the chains are unreliable.[/size]



Imam Ismael Haqqi

Imam Ismael Haqqi in his Ruh ul Bayan rejects this narration of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) by quoting the following verse of the Holy Quran [Surah Baqarah 02, Verse 114: “Who could do greater wrong than someone who prevents access to the mosques of Allah, preventing His name from being remembered in them, and goes about destroying them?”]
Imam Ismael Haqqi goes onto say that how could Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) know this verse of the Qur’an and then possibly prevent people to gather and remember Almighty Allah in the mosques. He says the chain is already very weak and therefore it is unreliable but even more so this would mean Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) has gone against the Quran which is absolutely not possible to believe.



Even if this narration were established,i:e Ibn Abass kicked against dhikr gathering, it goes against explicit rigorously authenticated Prophetic hadiths that permit dhikr out loud as long as it is not excessively loud. These hadiths are given precedence over this narration when their indication conflicts.

We present here only a couple of hadiths from Sahih Bukhari to illustrate this point


Narrated Abu Ma'bad:

(the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas) Ibn 'Abbas told me, "In the lifetime of the Prophet it was the custom to celebrate Allah's praises aloud after the compulsory congregational prayers." Ibn 'Abbas further said, "When I heard the Dhikr, I would learn that the compulsory congregational prayer had ended." [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 802]


Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:


I used to recognize the completion of the prayer of the Prophet by hearing Takbir. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 803]

So point to ponder: Do you not think Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) was at these congregational prayers at which the loud dhikr would take place upon completion? So one begins to understand that the purpose (if any) of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) to remove people from the Masjid must have been due to reasons which collided against Quran and Sunnah, and not congregational loud dhikr which was a common practice during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon him).

everything here is talking about loud dhikr which i did not dispute, what i disputed is the bid'ah where people in one voice, in unison doing dhikr.

As you can see, sincere readers should know that my narrations/posts on group dhikr traced back to the prophet himself by 90%. The evidences you brought against group dhikr are that of Umar and Ibn Mashud(RA). So fake narration about ibn Mashud is refuted unless you want me to bring more evidence against it. As for that of Umar(RA), you actually hold it to yourself to find out on what condition did Umar whipped them?. I told you earlier that Sheik Daud Alfa nla narrated the same hadith how Umar whipped those people but I asm not going to tell you why he said he whipped them. Whipping them does not suggest he kicked against group dhikr but something else which you and I should research for academic purposes. Otherwise, it has to be thrown out bcus it is in conflict with many other narrations.



To be continued In Sha Allah.....

you see the underlined, that is a typical example of dishonesty, and you are lying against the prophet, the hadith brought encouraged loud dhikr after salaah and not group dhikr, and i hope you know what loud dhikr mean in this context? it doesnt mean people in one voice and in unison doing dhikr, but if you dont get it, refer back to the explanation given by ibn uthaymeen and ibn baz on the hadith that talked on loud dhikr after fardh salaah.

Empiree:
On Why Ibn Mosu'd Kicked Out The Group Of Dhikr In The Masjid, The Real Reason He Did That


I did not state the reason he did in my earlier post. Here it is(below). It would be cumbersome for me to post all the analysis and investigations carried out about the narrators you (lexicon) cited to discredit GROUP DHIR. Unless you want me to it, I shall do so at your request. But right now I am going to post just THE REASON he kicked against them.


[size=40pt]"[/size] Imam Tabarani also mentions this narration with another weak chain. He mentions it by the narrator Abdul Bari who is also weak. Imam Tabarani in his narration mentions the whole event of the loud congregational dhikr and how some people were thrown out of the Mosque. But Imam Tabarani also mentions an additional sentence. He says that the people in the mosque were also telling stories of their old Arab ancestors and that Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) was not prohibiting the loud dhikr but he was prohibiting such story telling in the mosque of the Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him). This can explain the basis of the origins if any.

Sayedena Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) saw the people not doing dhikr but actually story telling and therefore told them to go out of the mosque because he could also foresee with his spiritual insight and knowledge that these people will join the khawarij as stated in the book by Imam Darimi.

Finally every single chain of narration that has been presented in this article leads only to weak and unreliable narrators and does not technically directly link to Abdullah bin Masud (Allah be pleased with him). Therefore these narrations prohibiting loud congregational zikr cannot be accepted, the chains have been broken, they are unreliable and therefore not authentic, therefore perform loud congregational zikr fearlessly, you are not performing a biddah![size=40pt]"[/size]


So This Is My Humble Submission On Group Dhikr So Far. Don't Know If It Is Necessary For Me To Tackle Other Topics: xyz COUNTS, Chapter or Verse, xyz REWARDS. I Shall Do That If It Is That Important.



Walaikum Salaam

Actually the objection of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood was not with the words "Allahu Akbar..." loudly or with the "Dhikr of Allah" (Remembrance of Allah), rather what the sahaabas objected was a new method and technique of dhikr which was not taught by the prophet (s.a.w) for gaining rewards. People may think that this is too harsh or probably too strict, however, a hadeeth comes to my mind which says :


Anas ibn Malik said to his people, “Indeed, you indulge in actions which are as insignificant to you as a hair, while at the time of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, we considered them to be destructive sins.”[Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 499]


Hence knowing that the best of people were the sahaabas , who adhered to the teachings of the prophet (s.a.w) in the best of ways and when they object to something, we (Muslims) better pay Attention !!


We have ahadeeth wherein the sahaabas (r.a.a) also made dhikr loudly such as after the fardh salah and etc, so the objection of 'Abdullah ibn Masud (r.a) and the other sahabaas(like Umar and Ibn Abass) was on this new method of dhikr which wasn't taught by the prophet (s.a.w) and not at the dhikr because the man responded to Ibn Mas'ud (r.a) by saying

"we were only learning or teaching each other some dua'as, rather what he said was that we only intended to earn good deeds"

and even though his statement or intention may be good but prophet (s.a.w) said in Sahih al Bukhaari that " Any action which does not match with ours is rejected"

The very reason that people have taken bid'ah lightly we today have masajids filled with people/groups sitting in circles chanting "hu hu he he" or some other idiotic sufi mantras which has nothing to do with Islam.

lastly i will give you a narration;

Prophet (s.a.w) said " If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people [Abu Dawood, Book 39, Hadith 4515]

Empiree stop misleading people, after this, i wont give any reply again except if necessary Allaah musta'an.

And readers should note that, Empiree has not been able to talk on the hadith of ibn Abass and that of Umar where he whipped the sick innovators, he(empiree) only hammered on the hadith of ibn mas'ud of which he did not even convincingly weaken the hadith, lets even assume he was able to weaken the hadith by Amr, i have given another TRUSTWORTHY narrator Qais who narrated that same hadith with slight variation, also the hadith of Umar and Ibn Abass is still on ground, dont be deceived!!

I hope you read yourself carefully before posting. Our argument in the beginning was focused on whether GROUPS /ASSEMBLIES of Dhikr is bid'a or not. Don't forget that. But now let's see what you wrote below

lexiconkabir:


The objection of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood was not with the words "Allahu Akbar..." loudly or with the "Dhikr of Allah" (Remembrance of Allah),

Don't you think you ended up agreeing with me now?. Yourself kicked against this at out start. Now you diverted.

rather what the sahaabas objected was a new method and technique of dhikr which was not taught by the prophet (s.a.w) for gaining rewards.

what's the new method?. My argument has always been group dhikr or assemblies of dhikr, whether loud or silent is SUNNAH but you insisted is bid'a. Here now you just gave general statement i:e "method" etc not taught by the prophet (saw). My focus was not about specific group. My focus is group dhikr is sunnah but you said consistently it's bid'a. You are now diverting.

Anas ibn Malik said to his people, “Indeed, you indulge in actions which are as insignificant to you as a hair, while at the time of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, we considered them to be destructive sins.”
[Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 499]

this does not address group or assemblies of Dhikr. This Hadith can apply to anything.

Hence knowing that the best of people were the sahaabas , who adhered to the teachings of the prophet (s.a.w) in the best of ways and when they object to something, we (Muslims) better pay Attention !!

Ibn Masud (ra) did not object to group dhikr, loud or not but you did. You condemned the SUNNAH

We have ahadeeth wherein the sahaabas (r.a.a) also made dhikr loudly such as after the fardh salah and etc, so the objection of 'Abdullah ibn Masud (r.a) and the other sahabaas(like Umar and Ibn Abass) was on this new method of dhikr which wasn't taught by the prophet (s.a.w) and not at the dhikr because the man responded to Ibn Mas'ud (r.a) by saying

"we were only learning or teaching each other some dua'as, rather what he said was that we only intended to earn good deeds"

obviously your statements are very conflicting and you may need to clear yourself

Prophet (s.a.w) said " If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people [Abu Dawood, Book 39, Hadith 4515]

Again, this is a general statement. It can apply to anything. It does not address group dhikr

Empi.ree stop misleading people, after this, i wont give any reply again except if necessary Allaah musta'an.

Well, this is your opinion. You have placed yourself to determine who is guided and who is not. This is the way of the JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. Qur'an says:

"They said: Be Jews and Christians and you will be guided. Say, Nay! (We follow) the religion of Ibrahim. He was no polytheist".


It's the same you are saying here that whoever is not salafi is either upon bid'a or hell bound. My post is from alhu sunnah wajamah. Percentage of salafi is only 5% of the Muslims, which is approximately 10 million of them of 1.6 billion. So you are dissenters.

There is no need to complicate anything. You already did. Very simple. ARE GROUPS or ASSEMBLIES of dhikr bid'a or Sunnah?. That's all I care about

Far as I'm concerned group dhikr is SUNNAH. I have shown you evidences. I thought you would come up with strong counterclaims. Please stop telling people not to gather to make dhikr. It's sunnah. If you do it individually in your home or at masjid it is well as well. But stop discouraging people from making assemblies of dhikr. That makes you alhu bid'a for condemning Sunnah. I wonder how you learned many things you learned today if not through both group dhikr gathering of knowledge. Both are valid

Empiree:
I hope you read yourself carefully before posting. Our argument in the beginning was focused on whether GROUPS /ASSEMBLIES of Dhikr is bid'a or not. Don't forget that. But now let's see what you wrote below

So you know this yet you were bringing things on saying dhikr loudly which i didnt even object?

Don'tthink you ended up agreeing with me now?. Yourself kicked against this at out start. Now you diverted.

Nah, no diversion, when i say he had no problem with these words, Allaahu akbar and so on, i mean, saying takbeer is a sunnah but the method they did it is what he kicked against, that is in group, in circles, ascribing counts the prophet did not recommend, i hope you dont misread me again.

what's the new method?. My argument has always been group dhikr or assemblies of dhikr, whether loud or silent is SUNNAH but you insisted is bid'a. Here now you just gave general statement i:e "method" etc not taught by the prophet (saw). My focus was not about specific group. My focus is group dhikr is sunnah but you said consistently it's bid'a. You are now diverting.

I have told you what i mean by new method, group dhikr is bid'ah.

this does not address group or assemblies of Dhikr. This Hadith can apply to anything.[/quoted]

Its a reminder.



[quote]Ibn Masud (ra) did not object to group dhikr, loud or not but you did. You condemned the SUNNAH

Ibn Masud did not condemn dhikr but he condemned group dhikr.

obviously your statements are very conflicting and you may need to clear yourself

I have.

Again, this is a general statement. It can apply to anything. It does not address group dhikr

Reminding you about the dangers of bid'ah

Well, this is your opinion. You have placed yourself to determine who is guided and who is not. This is the way of the JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. Qur'an says:

"They said: Be Jews and Christians and you will be guided. Say, Nay! (We follow) the religion of Ibrahim. He was no polytheist".


It's the same you are saying here that whoever is not salafi is either upon bid'a or hell bound. My post is from alhu sunnah wajamah. Percentage of salafi is only 5% of the Muslims, which is approximately 10 million of them of 1.6 billion. So you are dissenters.

There is no need to complicate anything. You already did. Very simple. ARE GROUPS or ASSEMBLIES of dhikr bid'a or Sunnah?. That's all I care about

Group dhikr is bid'ah

Far as I'm concerned group dhikr is SUNNAH. I have shown you evidences. I thought you would come up with strong counterclaims.

The only thing you tried to do was to fault the hadith about ibn masud which i refuted.

Please stop telling people not to gather to make dhikr. It's sunnah. If you do it individually in your home or at masjid it is well as well. But stop discouraging people from making assemblies of dhikr. That makes you alhu bid'a for condemning Sunnah. I wonder how you learned many things you learned today if not through both group dhikr gathering of knowledge. Both are valid

I have said earlier(right from the beginning), gathering to learn is not what I'm against, it makes me wonder if you even read me at all, however chanting hu hu he he like the deviants do today is nonsense.

Like I have said earlier, anyone that is upon kitaab wa sunna with the understanding of the sahabas, their followers, the followers of their followers, can call himself a salafi, if being a salafi means the things i just mentioned then I'm a salafi, the naming does not matter, but the methodology does!

So you dont have to go around shouting salafi salafi!! But follow the correct methodology, shaykh fawzaan said "some people that call themselves salfis do not even know what being a salafi is" as we can see calling yourself a salafi means nothing if you don't follow the methodology.