We need to have this discussion, and if you have anything to contribute lets do.
i think it is important for everyone to understand redemption and propitiation

The concept once saved,saved forever is true.

But such a case does not exist with any living person now.
This is because; those of us who have believed in Christ are not "saved" but have begun the process of being saved.
being saved is a continuous process; an everyday condition.

Everyday, as we try to live according to the precepts of the new covenant, we are being saved.

Total salvation takes place when Christ returns; then when saved it will be forever.

So for now, christians are undergoing the ongoing process of being saved and are not totally saved.

@ttalks

i dont really understand you, can you provide any scriptural backing for what you are saying?

Gamine:

@ttalks

i dont really understand you, can you provide any scriptural backing for what you are saying?

Mat 10:22
(22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

This is just one verse saying something about what i said above.

the word "saved" in the bible is used in different ways:

- It is used in the sense of when a person believes in Christ
- it is also used in the sense of all those who believe in Christ and stay in him till the end.

Going through the accounts of the bible, u'll notice that it isn't just the initial step of believing in christ that is required for Christians to maintain a life in christ; they are to remain in the faith and we know that faith produces fruit to show that one is in the faith.

I'll still add some more verses to support my position.

@ttalks

Even though i believe you are quoting out of context,

this is what im asking about.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and all,
believing in the things he did for us.
Does 'sin' have any hold on us?
Do we have to atone for sins we still commit?
if i die as im committing adultery, will i still go to hell?

Php 2:12
(12)  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The above shows that even though we have believed in Christ, we are to "work out our own salvation" and this is by living according to the provisions of Christ.


1Pe 1:5-9
(5)  Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of time.
(6)  In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you have to suffer various kinds of trials,
(7)  so that the genuineness of your faith, which is more valuable than gold that perishes when it is tested by fire, may result in praise, glory, and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
(  Though you have not seen him, you love him. And even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy,
(9)  because you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Our salvation which still refers to the term "being saved" is something yet to be revealed; it hasn't happened yet but we've begun the process of attaining it.
the goal or the end or the aim of our faith in Christ is to be saved at the end.

Our being saved is in a continuous tense, and not a present tense. or maybe i should say it is in the present-continuous.  


2Pe 1:1-10
(1)  From Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith that is as valuable as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(2)  May grace and peace be yours in abundance through the full knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord!
(3)  His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence.
(4)  Through these he has given us his precious and wonderful promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, seeing that you have escaped the corruption that is in the world caused by evil desires.
(5)  For this very reason, you must make every effort to supplement your faith with moral character, your moral character with knowledge,
(6)  your knowledge with self-control, your self-control with endurance, your endurance with godliness,
(7)  your godliness with brotherly kindness, and your brotherly kindness with love.
(  For if you possess these qualities, and if they continue to increase among you, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in attaining a full knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(9)  For the person who lacks these qualities is blind and shortsighted, and has forgotten the cleansing that he has received from his past sins.
(10)  So then, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election certain, for if you keep on doing this you will never fail.

We see from the above that we are not to "rest on our oars" because we have believed in christ but that we are to do stuff to ensure that we are going to attain our salvation at the end.

the conclusion of the whole thing here is that one can believe in Christ, but if he/she does not live life as he/she is expected to according to the provisions of the new covenant, that person is bound to stray from the faith and lose his/her salvation which was to come at the end of time.

At the moment, those of us who are in Christ have a down payment for our salvation, but we still do not have the full payment or full attainment.

Eph 1:13
(13)  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

the Holy Spirit is the "down payment" of our salvation. as long as we are sealed and remain in the faith by producing fruit throught that faith by living and walking according to the provisions of the new covenant; in other words: enduring till the end, we shall attain our salvation when Christ comes again.

Gamine:

@ttalks

Even though i believe you are quoting out of context,

this is what im asking about.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and all,
believing in the things he did for us.
Does 'sin' have any hold on us?
Do we have to atone for sins we still commit?
if i die as im committing adultery, will i still go to hell?

well, this post of urs puts things in a different light.
but my post does some justice to this.

It simply means that if we do not endure to the end; remain in the faith, we can't make it.

we do not have to atone for any sins we commit but can always ask for forgiveness ;as long as we genuinely repent of the sins,then are we assured of forgiveness.

as long as we remain in this fleshy cloak of ours, we would always struggle with sin, but as shown from the bible, we have things to do to stay away from committing these sins.
As long as we aren't walking according to the provisions of God's word, we are living in sin.

as regards if one dies while committing adultery, well this should put some light on that:

Heb 10:26-27
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

What are asking for forgiveness? is it for our sins?
i thought Jesus died for all our sins,

It simply means that if we do not endure to the end; remain in the faith, we can't make it.

We cant make what?

Gamine:

What are asking for forgiveness? is it for our sins?
i thought Jesus died for all our sins,

Yes Jesus died for our sins; sins we inherited from Adam, and sins we will commit.

But u can't get forgiven for a sin when you do not acknowledge that u sinned and also repent of it.

Just like as christ provided the forgiveness of sins unto those who believe/have faith in him; such is not available to those who do not believe/have faith in him.

Believing in christ also involves the acknowledgement of the fact that one is a sinner and also repenting of those sins. that is usually the initial step to salvation.

So, the same scenario presents itself in our Christian walk with Christ. We sin, we acknowledge that we have and ask for forgiveness as we repent. And we have an assurance of receiving forgiveness because we believe in Christ. belief in Christ is necessary for forgiveness.
so, what Christ stands for is the available propitiation for sins we commit; but forgiveness comes after acknowledgement and repentance of sins.

those who do not have Christ do not have this assurance that we have.

We cant make what?

We can't attain salvation; meaning facing the fiery judgement.

For we who are in Christ, Christ represents our sure atonement for any sin we might commit.

It's like this: Christ is what we have to clean off/wipe off any sins we commit.
It's not an automatic cleaning/wiping off of sins when we commit them; but it happens when we seek his forgiveness and repent.

In the case of unbelievers, they do not have Christ to atone for their sins because they haven't accepted him/believed in him.

In our case we have him so we have that assurance(although it isn't an excuse to sin - Hebrews 10:26-27).

1Jn 1:8-9(KJV)
(8 )  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:8-9(ISV)
(8 )  If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we make it our habit to confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

ttalks:

For we who are in Christ, Christ represents our sure atonement for any sin we might commit.

It's like this: Christ is what we have to clean off/wipe off any sins we commit.
It's not an automatic cleaning/wiping off of sins when we commit them; but it happens when we seek his forgiveness and repent.

In the case of unbelievers, they do not have Christ to atone for their sins because they haven't accepted him/believed in him.

In our case we have him so we have that assurance(although it isn't an excuse to sin - Hebrews 10:26-27).

1Jn 1:8-9(KJV)
(8 )  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:8-9(ISV)
(8 )  If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we make it our habit to confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Contradictions

Gamine:

Contradictions

Contradictions? In what way Gamine?

You know it doesn't make sense to say something is wrong without showing why.

Also, it would be helpful to state ur understanding about the whole issue.

no, im trying to understand something.

First you say Jesus atoned for our sins,
I need to know what and why we are asking for forgiveness,
trying to make right with God, when Jesus has done that for us.

Which translation is that one, 'if we make it a habit'

Gamine:

no, im trying to understand something.

First you say Jesus atoned for our sins,
I need to know what and why we are asking for forgiveness,
trying to make right with God, when Jesus has done that for us.

Jesus atonement of our sins is twofold:

- First the sins inherited(from Adam) which keeping the law could not save us from
- Second, sins that could/would occur in our walk with Christ.


The first one is easy; all inherited sins are taken care of. Now, sins which still occur in our lives are not automatically forgiven unless one seeks forgiveness by repenting and forsaking the sins.

The forgiveness(of the daily occuring sins) is available, but not attainable unless there is repentance.

The scriptures show that we need constant forgiveness of our sins in our walk with Christ:

Mar 11:25-26
(25) And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
(26) But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

verse 26 above shows that we still need forgiveness even when we have a relationship with God.

As i said before, Christ is that atonement which is available for us to get forgiveness of sins which we commit[b] after[/b] we repent of them.

Gamine:

Which translation is that one, 'if we make it a habit'

That's the international standard version(ISV).

Two fold.

I thought Jesus Died for ALL.

I didnt see any two-fold condition on the cross

As i said before, Christ is that atonement which is available for us to get forgiveness of sins which we commit after we repent of them.

in other words, God keeps sending Jesus to die on the cross after every sin we commit and ask for forgiveness

Gamine:

Two fold.

I thought Jesus Died for ALL.

I didnt see any two-fold condition on the cross

"Two fold" is the break down of "all".

ie. Sins inherited and sins that are/yet to be.

They are not conditions but the facts about sin.


Look at it this way:

We could not attain any forgiveness provided by Christ's sacrifice until we acknowledged our sin and repented.
the same situation applies in any other sin we commit; repent and attain.

If it isn't necessary to constantly seek forgiveness and cleansing through the blood of christ, there is no point in the expectations of a Christian by the bible; we should just accept Christ and then live life as usual, committing sins at every whim and be sure that we are ok no matter what.

Christ's atonement is like a blank cheque that we can always make use of when the need arises.
possession of a blank cheque would not get u anything unless u put it to use when the need arisies.

Gamine:

in other words, God keeps sending Jesus to die on the cross after every sin we commit and ask for forgiveness

No, the sacrifice has been made, but we need to put it to use when the situation arises.

you can have an endless supply of money(blank cheque) , but if u don't put it to use, u will not get anything.

We could not attain any forgiveness provided by Christ's sacrifice until we acknowledged our sin and repented.

Yes.

the same situation applies in any other sin we commit; repent and attain.

This doesnt make sense.

If it isn't necessary to constantly seek forgiveness and cleansing through the blood of christ,
there is no point in the expectations of a Christian by the bible; we should just accept Christ and then live life as usual,
committing sins at every whim and be sure that we are ok no matter what.

No, thats why Jesus said The greatest commandment is love, if you love someone
why would you want to hurt them.

Christ's atonement is like a blank cheque that we can always make use of when the need arises.
possession of a blank cheque would not get u anything unless u put it to use when the need arisies.

i dont buy this, <no pun intended>

Gamine:

This doesnt make sense.

The scripture says it does:


1Jn 1:8-10
( If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. - [The problem]
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - [The solution]
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

No, thats why Jesus said The greatest commandment is love, if you love someone
why would you want to hurt them.

I don't see how this applies to what we're saying.

i dont buy this, <no pun intendended>

It's an analogy i used to try to explain things to u.

Again, i try to make some sense:

Christ's sacrifice is like provision of a load of food to quench hunger along with a blank cheque to get more food.
The hunger here represents the inherited sins which is taken care of by the sudden supply of a load of food.
the blank cheque is the necessary stuff to get more food when fresh hunger(fresh sins) strikes again.
the provision has been made to get what is required to quell the hunger, but if not used, the hunger remains.

as I said, it's an analogy; just like Christ used parables to communicate a message. it takes deep understanding to understand.

@Gamine
Let’s look at this issue another way.

Let assume i use to be a sinner, and i accepted Christ as my saviour and believe in all that he did for me. I am saved right? Now does that give me right to do things like going on a shooting spree (with my AK47) in a shopping mall? Am i still saved? I personally don’t think so. I believe then that i have an issue to settle with the Almighty for that act? So then what do i do? Probably means i have to go through the process of obtaining salvation all over again or be truly sorry for my act and ask for forgiveness. Except of course you believe that the Almighty was very pleased with my behaviour.

The thing is if i have truly accepted Christ and i am saved, i must live according to Christ’s commandment and not indulge myself in activities that go against it. But when i do, it means i have derailed and sever myself from Christ. What do i need to do to connect once more? I guess that is what ttalks is saying here (i might be wrong but that’s my understanding)

Zikkyy:

@Gamine
Let’s look at this issue another way.

Let assume i use to be a sinner, and i accepted Christ as my saviour and believe in all that he did for me. I am saved right? Now does that give me right to do things like going on a shooting spree (with my AK47) in a shopping mall? Am i still saved? I personally don’t think so. I believe then that i have an issue to settle with the Almighty for that act? So then what do i do? Probably means i have to go through the process of obtaining salvation all over again or be truly sorry for my act and ask for forgiveness. Except of course you believe that the Almighty was very pleased with my behaviour.

The thing is if i have truly accepted Christ and i am saved, i must live according to Christ’s commandment and not indulge myself in activities that go against it. But when i do, it means i have derailed and sever myself from Christ. What do i need to do to connect once more? I guess that is what ttalks is saying here (i might be wrong but that’s my understanding)

Pretty much.

Let assume i use to be a sinner, and i accepted Christ as my saviour and believe in all that he did for me. I am saved right? Now does that give me right to do things like going on a shooting spree (with my AK47) in a shopping mall? Am i still saved? I personally don’t think so

Dude, we never stop being 'sinners'
it doesnt give you the right to do what you like in the same vein that being a member of your family
doesnt give you the right to do what you like.
Thank God you said personally.

The thing is if i have truly accepted Christ and i am saved, i must live according to Christ’s commandment and not indulge myself in activities that go against it.

True, and what is Christs Commandment? To love God and others, is it to NEVER 'sin'

But when i do, it means i have derailed and sever myself from Christ. What do i need to do to connect once more?

When you do something wrong in your family, are you 'severed' from them?
Do you stop being a member of that family?
Even though you say 'mom im sorry' does it mean, you stopped being a member of the family, then your 'sorry' now
brought you back?

Christ's sacrifice is like provision of a load of food to quench hunger along with a blank cheque to get more food.
The hunger here represents the inherited sins which is taken care of by the sudden supply of a load of food.
the blank cheque is the necessary stuff to get more food when fresh hunger(fresh sins) strikes again.
the provision has been made to get what is required to quell the hunger, but if not used, the hunger remains.

Wrong.

You need to go understand the meaning of propitiation and redemption.

i just understood a couple of things myself, and im just trying to see what other 'christians'
really understand about Christs death.

Because from what i see you posting, its like he shouldnt have died afterall.
if you need a 'blank cheque', get a goat

Gamine:

True, and what is Christs Commandment? To love God and others, is it to NEVER 'sin'

When you do something wrong in your family, are you 'severed' from them?
Do you stop being a member of that family?
Even though you say 'mom im sorry' does it mean, you stopped being a member of the family, then your 'sorry' now
brought you back?

Hmmmm,  i guess what you are saying here is once a person becomes a member of a family, he remains a member for good (even if there is a change in plan and the guy decide to go worship satan part-time). Oh well, i guess there is something you are not telling me here (i.e. you are privy to some info i dont have). Please share, dont be stingy.

One can certainly get punish by family members for being a bad (i.e. dont get to share in the spoils of the family inheritance). I see things like that around daily. Of course minor matters can be tolerated and the person counselled, but it has its limit.

Hmmmm, i guess what you are saying here is once a person becomes a member of a family, he remains a member for good (even if there is a change in plan and the guy decide to go worship satan part-time). Oh well, i guess there is something you are not telling me here (i.e. you are privy to some info i dont have). Please share, dont be stingy.

I am sure, the bible talks about something that is unforgivable. .
Denial of the Holy Spirit.

One can certainly get punish by family members for being a bad (i.e. dont get to share in the spoils of the family inheritance). I see things like that around daily. Of course minor matters can be tolerated and the person counselled, but it has its limit.

No one is disputing this
and The wages of sin is death.

Gamine:

True, and what is Christs Commandment? To love God and others, is it to NEVER 'sin'

If you truly in ur everyday actions "Love God and others" u will never sin.
this is because committing sin at any point in time negates that Love; sinning at any point in time is not loving God and others.

John 14:15
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The above means that if u do not keep God's commandments, u do not love him. And sin is a reflection of not keeping God's commandments.
Gamine, ur points are flawed in the light of the above.

Gamine:

Wrong.

You need to go understand the meaning of propitiation and redemption.

i just understood a couple of things myself, and im just trying to see what other 'christians'
really understand about Christs death.

Because from what i see you posting, its like he shouldnt have died afterall.
if you need a 'blank cheque', get a goat

It's pretty obvious that it is difficult for u to interprete analogies; hence ur statement above.

if u claim to have just understood some things about Christ's death, put it out here and let's see if it will stand the scrutiny of the scriptures.
Don't just make empty claims without substantiating them.

Now look at this:

Mat 5:21-22
(21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: - [This was the law under the old covenant.]
(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. - [This is a law under the new covenant]

Look at what Christ is saying to his disciples(and we currently are his disciples/followers) as regards his law under the new covenant(verse 22). Calling a brother fool makes a christian in danger of hell fire.

now if one did not need to repent/ask forgiveness of sins committed such as the one highlighted above Christ would not have said that one could be in danger of hell fire. He wouldn't have bothered because,as u insinuate, his death has taken care of that, or would take care of it in this case.
i don't know if u get the point I'm making here.

As i said before, put out ur new found understanding for scrutiny; let's see if it would stand the test of the scriptures.

ttalks:

now if one did not need to repent/ask forgiveness of sins committed such as the one highlighted above Christ would not have said that one could be in danger of hell fire. He wouldn't have bothered because,as u insinuate, his death has taken care of that, or would take care of it in this case.
i don't know if u get the point I'm making here.

I dont think she will (ever).

ttalks:

As i said before, put out your new found understanding for scrutiny; let's see if it would stand the test of the scriptures.

I was actually waiting for that. It will make the thread more interesting.

I have been very busy and could only manage to drop a few lines
especially that i was posting from my phone
anyway,

Lets take it from the top,

Romans 3:23

All have sinned. .

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (NIV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;(KJV)

We will always fall short of JESUS, who is the Glory, maybe
except some people like ttalks who can never 'sin' because they Love God.

I hope this is understood atleast

I am confused.

Gamine:

I have been very busy and could only manage to drop a few lines
especially that i was posting from my phone
anyway,

Lets take it from the top,

Romans 3:23

All have sinned. .
We will always fall short of JESUS, who is the Glory, maybe
except some people like ttalks who can never 'sin' because they Love God.

I hope this is understood atleast

You have confused me too.
Because the source of yours isnt clear.

It is yes and no

1. Yes= If you are saved and you maintain your relationship with the Lord, yes you are saved for life

2. No= If you were saved and did not follow the Lord and allow the things of this world to cloud your eyes and you stray away, if you die without reconcilling with the Lord, then your first salvation will not save you
Ezekiel 18:1-5; 7-end

Gamine:

I have been very busy and could only manage to drop a few lines
especially that i was posting from my phone
anyway,

Lets take it from the top,

Romans 3:23

All have sinned. .
We will always fall short of JESUS, who is the Glory, maybe
except some people like ttalks who can never 'sin' because they Love God.

I hope this is understood atleast

Gamine,

I don't think u are interpreting the "All have sinned" part properly.
That is in reference to the state of man before the acceptance of Christ, and not after; which ur post above seems to be indicating.

Now more to my input:

Rom 8:11-13
(11) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.
(12) Consequently, brothers, we have an obligation-but it is not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
(13) For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die, but if by the Spirit you continually put to death the activities of the body, you will live.

Do u see what is being communicated up there?
Living according to the flesh is committing sin and if u do so as a Christian u will "die" as said above.

And to explain "Loving God and sinning" based on ur clearly sarcastic comment about me ,

You cannot Love God and sin. Sin is an expression of dropping the love of God and then focusing on urself and what u want;neglecting what God says.
Sin is an expression of selfishness; being after what u want or ur own(without God's)way.
Sin is an expression of loving self above God.

So, in a Christian's life, sinning is an expression of temporal abandonment of the love of God replaced by a temporal love of self.
if it was possible to love God 100% of the time in a Christian's life, sin would never suffice.
we are human and based on our fleshy cloak of sin, we still cannot love God 100% of the time; hence our sinning and the need to always tap into the available grace provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Now let's read more of ur theory; don't get distracted by what we say/write.