Gamine:

@viaro
Exactly, Paul explains it all in Romans 7

Okay.

Romans 8:8, 'In the flesh' doesnt mean physical flesh for goodness sake

I understand your context of 'in this flesh'; and in my referencing Romans 8:8 I did not mean that it meant 'physical flesh'. Sorry for the mix up.

Viaro,
The three stages u highlighted:
-the initial saving at faith in Christ.
-the being saved during the Christian walk.
-the final stage;being glorified at the resurrection.

They were all indicated in the totality of my posts.
For example,my very first post on the thread showed the first and last stages.Then most of my other post were bordering on the middle stage.

The point I'm driving at is that the complete salvation is the totality of the three stages.One can't lay claim on the total package when the three stages aren't completed.

Here's how I see the three stages:
- the first stage of being declared saved is being saved from the condemnation brought about by the law of Moses;being justified by faith - Acts 13:39, Romans 3:25,etc.

- the second stage;the constantly being saved stage.This has to do with our Christian walk;living life according to Christ's provisions in the new covenant.Remember living this life is by the grace provided by Christ's sacrifice and not by our effort,so there shouldn't be any talk of us doing the saving by our effort.Living for Christ is by his grace alone.
Philipians 2:12-13 (emphasis on 13).

- The final stage.This has to do with Christ's return; the resurrection and glorification of those dead in Christ and the glorification of those in Christ still alive.
1 Peter 1(emphasis on verses 5,9,and 13).

Note: I'm posting from my phone and therefore, limited.

What is the 'saving' from , during the 'christian walk' 

i just cant grasp where you people get your explanations from.

Zikkyy:

I have gone through both links. Good write up no doubt but they dont say much about what happens to sins after believing and accepting christ. The sencond link was totally silent on the sins commited subsequent to the act of accepting Christ.

The illustration with the debtor even made it worse. What happens if the debtor incurs another debt? Will the creditor forgive him his debt because a third party has paid off the first debt? or will he be required to the liquidate the new debt all over again? That is the question. I think the illustration was all about the initial or original sin that was committed before the initial act of remorse and forgiveness.

Dude, did you see any reference to a past sin
The payment covers everything, past, present or future

Why is it so hard to see

Thank you, ttalks. I'm humbled by your calm outline; though I'd seen some of your posts bearing out those aspects. Restating them again was not to floor you, but to rather confirm (or reaffirm) the point.

However, even at attempts to reaffirm anything, perhaps it may not be far fetched to reason that some issues help us to think a bit deeper, yes?

Then, I would like to note the following:

ttalks:

Here's how I see the three stages:
- the first stage of being declared saved is being saved from the condemnation brought about by the law of Moses;being justified by faith - Acts 13:39, Romans 3:25,etc.

I accede (or agree). However, that is one of the things from which we are saved among several others. When I became a Christian, the one question I sought to answer for myself was this:

    Saved from WHAT?

While "justification" is part of the answer, the real answer is simply this:

    Saved from the wrath of God.

The primary verse that outlines this for me is Romans 5:9; because when I ask myself what it is that I've been saved from, the answer in that verse is this:

   'Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
    we shall be saved from wrath through him'

In Acts 13:39, the primary thing is that the Law could not justify anyone. As such, we know for a fact that the Law was not given to everyone, certainly not to Gentiles; and people cannot be judged upon the basis of what was not committed to them. This argument is settled in Romans 2:12 -

  "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
   and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"

As one who is not a Jew patristically, could I be judged upon the basis of a Law that was not committed to me as a Gentile? certainly not. Wherefore is the condemnation? Because I was a sinner "without the Law". Even without the Law, the first thing the apostle declares is found in Romans 1:18 -

  'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
   and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness'

Again, whether within the scope of the Law or outside of it, the one thing that I understand as being saved from is this - the wrath of God revealed from heaven against all ungodliness. It does not matter whether or not it is some kinds of ungodlines, the qualifier there is ALL - "all ungodlines". This is why Isaiah says that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

So, in simple terms, I may not be confident to hold your view that the first spect is "being saved from the condemnation brought about by the law of Moses". Romans 2:12 tells us some who sinned without the Law would face their verdict without the law. Therefore, the first aspect for me is being saved from the wrath of God against ALL ungodliness.

- the second stage;the constantly being saved stage.This has to do with our Christian walk;living life according to Christ's provisions in the new covenant.Remember living this life is by the grace provided by Christ's sacrifice and not by our effort,so there shouldn't be any talk of us doing the saving by our effort.Living for Christ is by his grace alone.
Philipians 2:12-13 (emphasis on 13).

- The final stage.This has to do with Christ's return; the resurrection and glorification of those dead in Christ and the glorification of those in Christ still alive.
1 Peter 1(emphasis on verses 5,9,and 13).

Note: I'm posting from my phone and therefore, limited.

I appreciate your other two points. Thank you.

Gamine:

What is the 'saving' from , during the 'christian walk' 

i just cant grasp where you people get your explanations from.

I like your questions, Gamine. Let me offer Galatians 1 verse 4 and see if it answers that one:

'that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father'

That perhaps is talking about "during the christian walk".

Its not a direct reason for Jesus dying <abi how do i put this in words>

It is a straight forward matter,

if you live anyhow in this life, you will die in a short time
You will also suffer the consequences of the sins you commit,
whether 'saved' or not

Allahu akbar. See them dey fight each other

lol.

Lol, Gamine. That was indeed straight-forward.

One does not have to be a Christian to live 'anyhow' and die instantia.
But again, I guess you're spot on in putting it straight like that - especially
in light of Romans 8:13.

Next

Time constraints and other priotities make it hard for me to keep up.

But let me add this to the mix.

A truly/fully saved Christian does not sin. Cannot Sin. Why, because once truly saved you have discarded the nature of Adam and taken on the nature of Christ. True salvation means you become like He was on this earth. No sin in Him.

Quoting 1 John 1:8-10 is only part of the story, the beginning of the journey. The Lord makes atonement for sins, but the true beauty of the salvific work is to rid us of the sin nature. That is the point that one truly experiences the fullnes of salvation.

But if you don't understand and believe that how will you wait on and trust the Lord for it?

The end of the Journey is stated clearly in 1 John 3

5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Doctrine is good and needful, but let it be end-to-end. Why stop at 1 John 1:8-10. It speaks of the journey. Then live the journey.

So if you sin willfully and inverterately, or just have the once in a decade occurence, its because you have not laid hold of the fullness of salvation. In fact, we have harrumphed about about exactly when one is saved. Read the passage above and tell me, when is one actually born again?

Read the gospels, the Lord clearly said "He who sins is of the Devil", as in verse 8 above. Is that absolute, relative,does it mean often or infrequently?

I detest the oft quoted "while we are in the flesh (this body) we will always sin. Its a lie. Christianity is first and foremost about death. His then yours. Die to self (mortify the flesh, or more technically its driving lusts and passions so you can be Spirit-led ) so that He can live in you. That is what takes time as you carry your cross and it slowly but surely kills you, and He can be enthroned.

Someone quoted this earlier.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Yes 0! True salvation means you will know Him and you will See Him Please read in conjunction with 1 John 3:6 above. Don't be sold a pup.

Let God be true and every man, every organised religious entity, every ritualised corporate body and all institutionalised man-made religion a liar.

Apologies if I started to veer into rant. Ain't got passion for nowt else. Your cordial discourse is in itself a blessing.

God bless
TV

This one thing I appreciate is the various views we can express. .  iron sharpeneth iron, so the saying goes.

But here is something I may not share with you, TV01:

A truly/fully saved Christian does not sin. Cannot Sin.

Now, that's problematic for me. I don't think that 1 John 1:8-10 holds that a Christian 'does not' or 'cannot' sin. If that were so, why then does it say in verse 9 that "if we confess our sins"? Who are the "we" in that verse? And if the "we" points to those who are saved, does that not immediately show that Christians do sin and can indeed sin?

Another verse that points out the fact is James 3:2 - "For in many things we offend all." Same point: who are the "we" in that statement?

The point is not that we should go on sinning - Romans 6:1-2 expressly forbid that idea.

However, in our experiences, we find indeed that some may sin in one way or another. although as Christians it is not the experience we should desire. Does this help at all to put things in context?

The point is not that we should go on sinning - Romans 6:1-2 expressly forbid that idea.

However, in our experiences, we find indeed that some may sin in one way or another. although as Christians it is not the experience we should desire. Does this help at all to put things in context?

I agree with this, not that a christian CANNOT sin, haba.

But then we ask for forgiveness not in the vein that our asking for forgiveness
would do anything but in the same you would tell your parents sorry, if you
do something they do not like because you love them.

Everything after Jesus's death should be love-driven
he said that Himself.
Love God
Love your neighbors as you love yourself

not

Fear God's judgement or
Never Commit Sins or
Fear Hell
Strive to get to heaven
e.t.c

viaro:

Now, that's problematic for me. I don't think that 1 John 1:8-10 holds that a Christian 'does not' or 'cannot' sin. If that were so, why then does it say in verse 9 that "if we confess our sins"? Who are the "we" in that verse? And if the "we" points to those who are saved, does that not immediately show that Christians do sin and can indeed sin?

Thanks for your response @viaro. I also appreciate the differing viewpoints and they do give pause for thought.

Firstly, I qualified the type/state of the Christian.
Secondly, would you be so kind as to state your reading of 1 John 3:5-10.

viaro:

The point is not that we should go on sinning - Romans 6:1-2 expressly forbid that idea.

If the point is that "Christians  should not go on sinning", how and when does a Christian get to that point? Is it not contradictory to say do and will sin, but in the same breath say they should not go on sinning?

Did the Lords work only make atonement for past sins and any we may commit in future, or is it efficacious in delivering us from the sin nature. Yes, no? How, why?

viaro:

However, in our experiences, we find indeed that some may sin in one way or another. although as Christians it is not the experience we should desire. Does this help at all to put things in context?

What a Christian - and I talk in the discipleship sense - should desire is to be like His Master. Is there atonement for sin and deliverance from the sin nature, or just atonement, even if in  a present continous sense?

What is the difference between one who willfully sins - and maybe does not even believe - and one who believes and sins, even if its with regret?

God bless
TV

- Still posting from my phone -

Gamine,

Your last post finally has shown what is supposed to be.
Because initially ur stance seemed to indicate that because of Christ's sacrifice, we wouldn't even need to ask for forgiveness for sins which crop up.
This is how I view the seeking forgiveness part:

When we ask for forgiveness, it shows that we have remorse for what we did. And that indicates that we care about what God thinks and says about those wrong things;means we love God.
Our seeking forgiveness doesn't do the saving or atoning;rather,it makes the position and state of our heart clear to God.
It makes God to determine our sincerity in the faith;as in whether we truly cherish the sacrifice of Christ and really love him.

On the other hand,a person who doesn't seek forgiveness only shows the state of his heart.He despises the sacrifice of Christ as he keeps on sinning without saying he is sorry and trying to change. I would say that such a person's manner says a lot about what he thinks of God and the sacrifice of Christ,and it sure ain't going to be in his favor cos the ruling could be:he was never in the faith.

What is the difference between one who willfully sins - and maybe does not even believe - and one who believes and sins, even if its with regret?

The difference is, He who hasnt accepted Christ isnt a heir of the kingdom, simple.

I cant stop to think for one moment, there is someone on this earth that would NEVER sin,
if that was so frickin possible, Jesus death is to no avail, he didnt die to stop us from 'sinning'
He died to reconcile us back to God, and if anyone had any commonsense at all, you would. with the
new lease of life you have been given, do the right (the love drive)

God sees the heart, he knows who truely repented. and that's what His judgement will be on.

ttalks:

- Still posting from my phone -

Gamine,

Your last post finally has shown what is supposed to be.
Because initially your stance seemed to indicate that because of Christ's sacrifice, we wouldn't even need to ask for forgiveness for sins which crop up.
This is how I view the seeking forgiveness part:

When we ask for forgiveness, it shows that we have remorse for what we did. And that indicates that we care about what God thinks and says about those wrong things;means we love God.
Our seeking forgiveness doesn't do the saving or atoning;rather,it makes the position and state of our heart clear to God.
It makes God to determine our sincerity in the faith;as in whether we truly cherish the sacrifice of Christ and really love him.

On the other hand,a person who doesn't seek forgiveness only shows the state of his heart.He despises the sacrifice of Christ as he keeps on sinning without saying he is sorry and trying to change. I would say that such a person's manner says a lot about what he thinks of God and the sacrifice of Christ,and it sure ain't going to be in his favor cos the ruling could be:he was never in the faith.

I understand your point

As i said earlier, God sees the heart, i dont think anyone who truely has repented wont show remorse for his sins.
i mean!! it is TOO obvious, that the wrong never brings right!
the bible says we will fall, but we also have to do our part by fleeing from appearances of evil,
still. . .
if i fall and the devil uses that as an opportunity, to send me packing from this earth (which he is the prince of. .)
i will not be judged by that sin, i will still be cleared for eternal life.

'nay, Allah is ur patron, helper and Protector, and He is the best of helpers' Quran 3:150

lol

Thats the truth man. God is not stuff to be make fun of

Good morning, TV01. Great to read those questions from you - very sound and well appreciated.

TV01:

Firstly, I qualified the type/state of the Christian.

I bore in mind the qualifiers you made earlier; which was why I focused on just on point - "does not" and "cannot sin".

Secondly, would you be so kind as to state your reading of 1 John 3:5-10.

Briefly, the passage does not suppose that a Christian does not have the ability or capacity to sin. The reality of the fact that Christians are capable of sinning (and some in fact do sin) is borne out twice over in both 1 John 1:9 and James 3:2.

For the passage you recommended, let me keep it short by focusing on verse 9 - "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God". This is prolly where you surmised that a saved Christian "does not" and "cannot sin".

For me, it portrays the fact of "what is" while not ignoring the experience of "what occurs" - if you get my drift. "What is" would point out that the seed does not urge a Christian to sin as a matter of habit - he cannot live habitually in sin; but in experience we know that "what occurs" rings true that Christians have the capacity to sin when they are not abiding in Christ (see 1 John 3:6 - "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not". Not forgetting that other passages bear out the experience of Christians who sin, the same apostle John earlier stated in 1 John 2:1:

   'My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
    And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
    Jesus Christ the righteous'

That verse probably answers to an anticipated question, viz: so what happens where a Christian actually has commited a sin? It says, "if any man sin" - not that a Christian is not capable of sinning nor actually has no ability to do so.

If the point is that "Christians  should not go on sinning", how and when does a Christian get to that point?

I don't know. What I may offer in response is that it is not getting to a point that is germane, but rather that we should not make it our prospect. We understand this clearly from both 1 John 2:1 ('if any man sin') and Romans 6:1-2 ('Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid').

Is it not contradictory to say do and will sin, but in the same breath say they should not go on sinning?

No, it is not contradictory to read what is stated - and what is stated is not "do and will", it is not urging people to "do". Rather, it is ackowledging the fact of our experiences that it is possible that Christians sin - and that when they sadly find themselves in that situation, they cannot go on habitually living that way. This is why we ought to 'confess our sins' (1 John 1:9); examples may include when a believer is being disciplined by the Lord for living that way (see Hebrews 12:11), as is attested by James 5:15 -

  "the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;
   and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him"

In all, it is not saying we live in sin as the norm; but if we unwittingly have sinned, we have recourse to our Advocate, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Did the Lords work only make atonement for past sins and any we may commit in future, or is it efficacious in delivering us from the sin nature. Yes, no? How, why?

The Lord's vicarious work on the Cross covers all that you enumerated -

    * sins that are past:
       God set forth His Son as a propitiation for sins that are past - Romans 3:25

    * sins that we unwittingly commit in the present:
       if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father -
       Jesus Christ: He is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:1-2)

    * sins committed unplanned in the future:
       'Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that
        come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.'
        (Heb. 7:25)

    * He also delivered us from sin nature:
       'our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
        that henceforth we should not serve sin' (Romans 6:6)

    * WHY did He do this?
      (a) 'Who gave himself for our sins,
       that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
       according to the will of God and our Fathe' (Gal. 1:4)
      (b) and that He might 'present you faultless before
      the presence of his glory with exceeding joy' (Jude 1:24)

So, in all, I would concur with you - Yes, He did all those things for us in His vicarious work on the Cross.

What a Christian - and I talk in the discipleship sense - should desire is to be like His Master. Is there atonement for sin and deliverance from the sin nature, or just atonement, even if in  a present continous sense?

Christ's work covers both sins and sin to effect deliverance and atonement.

What is the difference between one who willfully sins - and maybe does not even believe - and one who believes and sins, even if its with regret?

The difference is outlined in 1 John 3:8 and simply delineates between the unregenrate and the saved person. One who sins willfully has not know God - how would he be sinning 'willfully'? On the other hand, the other person - a believer - regrets his sins, and that is what drives him to repentance of such value we find in 2 Cor. 7:9-10.

Bless you.

'and whoever seeks a religion other than Islam. It will never be accepted of him and in the hereafter he will be among the loser' Quran 3:85

Abuzola:

Why should i be save by one powerless god who did not even save himself from the hand of the jews, heya. Pure brainwash

Dude I believe when people ignore your comments for this long, its a polite way of saying "please shut you mouth, this discussion does not concern you and we would rather not have you opinion". "Thank you".

You are such a fanatic, (very un-constructive in your fanaticism) cos I have read your other post on other threads.

I think it is time the MODS keep Abuzola and his likes of this christian sections!

Dg- go and take a tour our muslim section and see how ur illiterate brothers destabilize it. For being unfair you re a disgrace to jesu

LOL!
Islam taught you that?

Abuzola:

Dg- go and take a tour our muslim section and see how your illiterate brothers destabilize it. For being unfair you re a disgrace to jesu

And you think thats a good reason to be a trouble shooter. If Christians dis stabilize your discussion on Muslim threads then you are no better than those Christians by doing the same thing. Honestly, you are giving Muslims a bad name by these your posts.

is non of business, let me give them a bad surname sef, now u are tasting what you are giving us

once saved, saved forever?

thats an inconsistent statement as sin can derail the christain life.

heb 12v14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

quoting scriptures out of context

smh

not very nice.

This is Heb 12:1-17

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hi Gamine is it possible for a non believer to be saved? I mean i do go to church every sunday (even though i don't believe in god) am not born again but i don't steal or lie etc. And i know i am a better person than most of those hypocrites who call themselves christians. Whenever they make the call in church and ask those who want to be born again to come to the stage I NEVER DO IT. Why? Because as far as am concerned its pointless. My heart and mind will never be convinced. Because as far as ai'm concerned god don't exist. So what dose that mean am i destined to rot in Hell for the next trillion years? Or when i die will the all forgiving god understand my situation and forgive me?

Manmustwac,
Sorry dude, its either you believe in Jesus or not.
No one is better than anybody in the eyes of God, we are all SINNERS.
Its either you repent, and accept Christs payment on your behalf or not.
Thats the only way i know, doing 'good works' is something that should
come with it.
Doing good works in itself doesnt save anybody.
Man, it doesnt take a pip out of you, to show remorse, to truely repent,
you dont have to do any altar call, its between you and God.

I still dont understand though,
you dont believe in God and you go to 'church'? who are you fooling?
i believe in God, ive accepted Jesus and i dont even go to 'church'
you dont believe in God and you are thinking about Hell.
Dude, get on with your life.

Sometimes i cant help but wonder why people wont just take the easier route,

if you repent and die, then find out theres no god, you have lost nothing.
if you repent and die, then find out theres a god, ETERNAL LIFE!

if you dont repent and die, then it turns out indeed theres no god, you lose nothing
if you dont repent and die, then it turns out theres really a god, you are so damned

Sorry dude, is either you are a muslim


'and he whom Allah guides, he is led aright, but he whom He sends astray, for such you will find no helper/protector besides Him and We shall gather them together on the Day of resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf, their abode will be hell, whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the fire' ' Quran 17:97