Isa 10:5-17
(5)  O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
(6)  I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
(7)  Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
(8 )  For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings?
(9)  Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus?
(10)  As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria;
(11)  Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols?
(12)  Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
(13)  For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
(14)  And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
(15)  Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
(16)  Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
(17)  And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

I felt this topic has to be dealt with in a thread of its own and from the point of view of Christians ,not atheists.

Looking at the above passage in quote, can one truly say that the king of assryia's will and purpose is a free one or was brought about or
caused by God's will with much emphasis placed on verses 5, 6, and 7?

I am of the opinion that the human will is not free; it is only caused or influenced.

Note: Freewill - The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

The human will is definitely affected,influenced or caused by external agencies, and is therefore not free.

there are lots of passages inm the bible that point towards such.

But i want this to be a discussion of opinions on the issue.

This leads us to the classical paradox, which is fate or predestination versus free will. Do we have free will, or are we predestined? Did Judas really have the choice of betraying Christ? It was predicted in Psalm 41:9 and it was fulfilled in Judas. The question is, did Judas really have a choice?

When God prophesies a future event, does that mean it is inevitable? Yes, it certainly does, because He sees the end from the beginning. Do we have any choice? Yes, we do.

We now understand that time is a physical property, and that living in time, we view events as a sequence, that is in three directions: Past, present and future. Behind us is the past; ahead us is the future. God, who created time He lives in eternity, outside the property of time. He can see time in one stretch (past, present and future at one go). He can see what we are going to do. That doesn't mean He relieves us of the choice; it just means that He, in His infinite knowledge, knows the choice we are going to make.

Cool topic. Ttalks, I think this is a matter of definition.

Free will is simply the freedom of human beings make choices. I think this is the unconscious definition most people hold to.

Now whether our choices are affected, influenced, forced or caused by external factors does not eliminate or diminish the fact that we still chose to make those choices/decisions. Hope this makes sense.

JeSoul:

Cool topic. Ttalks, I think this is a matter of definition.

Free will is simply the freedom of human beings make choices. I think this is the unconscious definition most people hold to.

Now whether our choices are affected, influenced, forced or caused by external factors does not eliminate or diminish the fact that we still chose to make those choices/decisions. Hope this makes sense.

Is a lie , your bible does not allow us to have freewill, you threaten us with hell if we dont accept the teachings of the bible. how is that a chance for us to have freewill ?

meanwhile i have a social network site i opened and i am inviting well meaning nairalanders to join, you are one of them, simply click on my signature to see the site and sign up.

banom:

Is a lie , your bible does not allow us to have freewill, you threaten us with hell if we dont accept the teachings of the bible. how is that a chance for us to have freewill ?

you have just exercised your 'free will' by rejecting the teachings of the bible. So . . . what exactly is your beef brotha? You are free to either accept it or reject it, love it or hate, believe it or trash it - this is your free will.

JeSoul:

you have just exercised your 'free will' by rejecting the teachings of the bible. So . . . what exactly is your beef brotha? You are free to either accept it or reject it, love it or hate, believe it or trash it - this is your free will.

So as i have rejected it, will you and your bible accept the fact that i have my rightt to reject it and leave me alone , not to be threatening me with everlasting hell?

Meanwhile remember to join the site i gave you.

JeSoul:

Cool topic. Ttalks, I think this is a matter of definition.

Free will is simply the freedom of human beings make choices. I think this is the unconscious definition most people hold to.

Now whether our choices are affected, influenced, forced or caused by external factors does not eliminate or diminish the fact that we still chose to make those choices/decisions. Hope this makes sense.

Yeah, I know definition actually plays a large role here.

But, the truth is a free will is one that is displayed by making choices/decisions of your own without any form of pressure,or influence, or cause.
The fact is that: no choice or decision made is without influence or cause.
The choice made is dependent on a cause.
Without the cause,the choice made would not have been made.

Leading to the conclusion that there is no choice without a cause/influence; which means there is nothing like a free will.

I think free will should have better been called: Will without influence or Free of influence/cause - will.

Based on these, I think that our wills are determined by the things God sets into action.

There are definite responses to some conditions or situations; there are also diverse responses to certain conditions.

So, now, - how do we relate this so called "free will" to the scenario presented in the verses I quoted; the King of Assyria situation?

This is how i view the verses in question:

(5) O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation

The verse above shows or indicates that Assyria is God's tool for anger. - [a tool is at the mercy and will of its wielder/owner]

(6) I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Verse 6 shows that it is God's will and intention to use assyria against his people.

(7) Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Verse 7 shows that the king of Assyria had no intention,will or plan to attack God's people.

But because of God's will and intention, the will and desire was built up in the heart of the king.

but one will notice that after the king would have fulfilled God's purpose, God was goping to punish him.
One could ask why, since it was God that made him want to do his bidding.

But the interesting thing to note is that God was not punishing him for the act against his people; rather, he was punishing him for the fruit of his heart.
The thought that it was himself that wanted to do as he pleased and the belief that all he did or could do was of his own will,intention and ability.

This is evident in what verses 8 to 14 say.

God then says that it is himself that made the whole thing possible because it was his will and that the king was only a tool in fulfilling that will. Verse 15 says this much.


This much shows that when God has a desire or will, he makes his will come to pass by influencing the wills of his creation.
Without God putting the will or thought into the king of Assyria's heart, he would not have attacked God's people.


Differing views are welcome.

banom:

So as i have rejected it, will you and your bible accept the fact that i have my rightt to reject it and leave me alone , not to be threatening me with everlasting hell?

Banom dear, you are free to do and choose whatsoever your heart desires. And since you've rejected the bible, concepts taught in it such as heaven and hell and salvation and damnation shouldn't bother you? right?

Meanwhile remember to join the site i gave you.

lol naijasingles ke? haven't you heard I am neither single nor nigerian? - according to NL standards that is

ttalks:

Yeah, I know definition actually plays a large role here.

But, the truth is a free will is one that is displayed by making choices/decisions of your own without any form of pressure,or influence, or cause.
The fact is that: no choice or decision made is without influence or cause.
The choice made is dependent on a cause.
Without the cause,the choice made would not have been made.

Leading to the conclusion that there is no choice without a cause/influence; which means there is nothing like a free will.

I think free will should have better been called: Will without influence or Free of influence/cause - will.

Based on these, I think that our wills are determined by the things God sets into action.

There are definite responses to some conditions or situations; there are also diverse responses to certain conditions.

I don't agree fully agree here as it would insinuate that God mischieviously manipulates us into doing[i] His [/i] will and I know this is not your position.

I believe that God knows ahead of time what we will choose, what we will think, what we will decide - and then He uses that to accomplish His will on earth. However I do agree that our will is influenced, affected etc by external factors. So while perhaps the term itself "freewill" may be lacking, I still think that when most people consider the term, they simply think of it as the "freedom to make choices".

ttalks:

This is how i view the verses in question:

(5) O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation

The verse above shows or indicates that Assyria is God's tool for anger. - [a tool is at the mercy and will of its wielder/owner]

(6) I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Verse 6 shows that it is God's will and intention to use assyria against his people.

(7) Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Verse 7 shows that the king of Assyria had no intention,will or plan to attack God's people.

But because of God's will and intention, the will and desire was built up in the heart of the king.

but one will notice that after the king would have fulfilled God's purpose, God was goping to punish him.
One could ask why, since it was God that made him want to do his bidding.

But the interesting thing to note is that God was not punishing him for the act against his people; rather, he was punishing him for the fruit of his heart.
The thought that it was himself that wanted to do as he pleased and the belief that all he did or could do was of his own will,intention and ability.

This is evident in what verses 8 to 14 say.

God then says that it is himself that made the whole thing possible because it was his will and that the king was only a tool in fulfilling that will. Verse 15 says this much.


This much shows that when God has a desire or will, he makes his will come to pass by influencing the wills of his creation.
Without God putting the will or thought into the king of Assyria's heart, he would not have attacked God's people.


Differing views are welcome.

  Very good analysis, however I differ in my understanding of verse 7:

Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.Verse 7 shows that the king of Assyria had no intention,will or plan to attack God's people.
But because of God's will and intention, the will and desire was built up in the heart of the king.

In my understanding the King of Assyria did have an intention to attack or why else would it say this in the second part of vs 7 "but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."?

I think God was saying that it wasn't the will or intention of the king of Assyria to be used as an instrument of punishment against the Isrealites. In the simplicity of the king's thinking- he didn't know his evil intentions were being used by God. So even though God used his evil to a purpose, God still punished the king for his evil.

Let me put it this way:
-The Assyrian King's will was that he was simply going to attack and "cut down the nations"
-God used the Assyrian King's will of attack as a tool to punish the Isrealites.
-God still punished the Assyrian king because his thoughts/actions/will were evil - even though God used them.

   So in essence, God did not influence or determine the king's will, He simply used it (as He so often does) to fulfil His own will/purposes. This is my understanding, feel free to point any holes you might see

I'll respond when i get home.

JeSoul:

I don't agree fully agree here as it would insinuate that God mischieviously manipulates us into doing[i] His [/i] will and I know this is not your position.

I believe that God knows ahead of time what we will choose, what we will think, what we will decide - and then He uses that to accomplish His will on earth. However I do agree that our will is influenced, affected etc by external factors. So while perhaps the term itself "freewill" may be lacking, I still think that when most people consider the term, they simply think of it as the "freedom to make choices".

I wonder why it is always the "mischievious" or "sadistic" terms that are usually ascribed towards God when one tries to make it clear that God influences or affects our wills.

JeSoul:

Very good analysis, however I differ in my understanding of verse 7:

Ok.

In my understanding the King of Assyria did have an intention to attack or why else would it say this in the second part of vs 7 "but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."?

I think God was saying that it wasn't the will or intention of the king of Assyria to be used as an instrument of punishment against the Isrealites. In the simplicity of the king's thinking- he didn't know his evil intentions were being used by God. So even though God used his evil to a purpose, God still punished the king for his evil.

Let me put it this way:
-The Assyrian King's will was that he was simply going to attack and "cut down the nations"
-God used the Assyrian King's will of attack as a tool to punish the Isrealites.
-God still punished the Assyrian king because his thoughts/actions/will were evil - even though God used them.

So in essence, God did not influence or determine the king's will, He simply used it (as He so often does) to fulfil His own will/purposes. This is my understanding, feel free to point any holes you might see

Verse 7 shows that he had intentions to cut off nations, not "the nations" as u put it. But there was no indication that he had any plans against israel,hence the part that said he didn't mean to or have it in his heart to.

As i said before, God was going to punish him not because of the fact that he had evil intentions against nations but because of the fruit of his heart; that is, the fact that he felt it was all of his own will,power,and intention that he could accomplish all he did:

Isa 10:12-14
(12) Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
(13) For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
(14) And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

Those sure look like pride of the will to me and i know God hates pride.

God was trying to show that he was nothing more than a tool in his hands; whose will was subject to his:

Isa 10:15
(15) Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

Wondering if u get the point I'm making?

I believe God does influence and determines man's will.
Or what do u think is being communicated in the verse below:

Php 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Oh no 'As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers' Quran 3:56

Is it necessary to obey Jesus and pray 'Thy will be done in earth', if God's will must always be done anyway?

ttalks:

I wonder why it is always the "mischievious" or "sadistic" terms that are usually ascribed towards God when one tries to make it clear that God influences or affects our wills.

    well it would be mischevious to assert human beings have the freedom to make choices then turn around and say "God always influences and affects our will" which is in essence setting us up as zombies who really are just pawns in His game and that ain't true.

Verse 7 shows that he had intentions to cut off nations, not "the nations" as u put it. But there was no indication that he had any plans against israel,hence the part that said he didn't mean to or have it in his heart to.

  No slow down brother. You're adding extra in there now

Here's what the verse says: "Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."

  Going solely off the information we are given here, we are told the king planned to destroy many nations - we're not told which nations he had in mind and[b] it doesn't say Isreal was not part of one of those nations.[/b] We're not given that information so I don't see you reached the above conclusion that "he had no plans against Isreal".

As i said before, God was going to punish him not because of the fact that he had evil intentions against nations but because of the fruit of his heart; that is, the fact that he felt it was all of his own will,power,and intention that he could accomplish all he did:

Isa 10:12-14
(12) Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
(13) For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
(14) And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

Those sure look like pride of the will to me and i know God hates pride.

  I agree.

God was trying to show that he was nothing more than a tool in his hands; whose will was subject to his:

Isa 10:15
(15) Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

Wondering if u get the point I'm making?

I believe God does influence and determines man's will.
Or what do u think is being communicated in the verse below:

Php 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

   I get it, and I have some issues with it.
Our wills are most certainly secondary to God's. Which is why in spite of man's failures, Jesus still came, lived and died for us and rose again. If it were solely up to man this would probably not have happened.

Yes God influences us as said in Phil 2:13 - but to say He determines it to me is going too far. It is my position that God works with our failures and successes, He uses our good and bad choices to bring about His will because He knows ahead of time what we will choose to do. He sets it up so that His ultimate goal will be accomplished - this is not Him determining our wills, it is Him working in them and through them to bring out His!

Image123:

Is it necessary to obey Jesus and pray 'Thy will be done in earth', if God's will must always be done anyway?

Good question.
I don't think it is accurate to say "God's will is always done" because it isn't. It would be better if we came up with a definition for what we mean by "God's will" anyways.

I think it is better if we said God's ultimate purpose is always done - just like we saw with Jesus dying and rising again. For example it is God's will that we should constantly do good, avoid immorality, pray for all the saints etc . . . but do we always do this? no. Even though God through the holy spirit constantly influences us? no. But if we are truly born again, His ultimate purpose of completing our salvation and justification will be accomplished at the return of Jesus.

@ttalks: I hope you are now getting my point. You need to redefine your answers. God simply has an end in mind. Looking at it from our own view, it sounds manipulative but when you think in all possible dimensions. You see that it is due to a very strong purpose. The devil was created for this very purpose. You do not know what your undergoing life on earth means to your salvation. You underestimate what winning the devil in this world is. That's definitely one of the things God wants for us. He knows whether you are going to heaven or hell. If you are going to hell, you may just be in the world because you are going to help someone else be in heaven. Everything happens for the rightful purpose. Peace

@ttalks: I hope you are now getting my point. You need to redefine your answers. God simply has an end in mind. Looking at it from our own view, it sounds manipulative

Lightwalk thank you for that simple and concise statement, that is what I also was trying to pass across.

JeSoul:

Lightwalk thank you for that simple and concise statement, that is what I also was trying to pass across.

U're welcome

JeSoul:

Good question.
I don't think it is accurate to say "God's will is always done" because it isn't.

A verse in the bible makes it clear that God will is always done and nothing can resist it:

Rom 9:19
(19)  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The bold part in the verse surely suggests that nothing or nobody can or has resisted God's will. it denotes an impossibility of resisting God's will.

Another translation(CEV) puts it thus:

Rom 9:19
(19)  Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?"


In the light of the different responses, i'd like us to go through these verses:

Rom 9:16-21
(16)  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17)  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18)  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19)  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20)  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21)  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

These do show that everything does stem from God and how he wants things to be; not really God using how we are or what we do to accomplish his purpose.
It surely looks like he makes us do what we do to accomplish his purpose. 

NB: I am not complaining about what God does or is doing; i'm cool with it. 

JeSoul:

It would be better if we came up with a definition for what we mean by "God's will" anyways.

I think God's will is still definitely his purpose.

Rom 9:19(KJV)
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:19(BBE)
(19) But you will say to me, Why does he still make us responsible? who is able to go against his purpose?

Makes sense to me.

But one thing I think: I Know God has an ultimate and super purpose; but I also feel that he has other wills within his ultimate will.

Just like sub-wills of a super-will.
these sub-wills might not make sense but all work towards accomplishing the super will.

But one thing for sure; no man or thing or situation can resist his will or prevent it from being; whether sub or super will.

@ttalks. Your interpretations of the Bible continue to surprise me
The question is what is God's will. He has specific wills and all cannot be resisted. But the question is what and what does He will. Think beyond the space that restricts you and do something you have never done. You'll feel better.

Dan 4:35
(35) To him the nations are far less than nothing; God controls the stars in the sky and everyone on this earth. When God does something, we cannot change it or even ask why."

Does this show God fashioning his will according to ours or God fashioning ours to his?

Truth be told: We can only will according to God's will. And such a will(ours) is not free/independent of God's will.

lightwalk:

@ttalks. Your interpretations of the Bible continues to surprise me
The question is what is God's will. He has specific wills and all cannot be resisted. But the question is what and what does He will. Think beyond the space that restricts you and do something you have never done. You'll feel better.

lightwalk, I hardly have much to say. The bible is being very clear. It's just that we find it hard to accept that all we do or will ever do is according to God's will and not our own.

Our own wills are brought about by God's will.

ttalks:

lightwalk, I hardly have much to say. The bible is being very clear. It's just that we find it hard to accept that all we do or will ever do is according to God's will and not our own.

Our own wills are brought about by God's will.

Maybe you will understand if i explain it you like a child.
God's will does not encompass every minute action. In fact I did say about 60% of the things we do are outside his will. It's just like a company that has a vision to develop a wired world. The employees are told not to do things that are outside the vision of the company. The manager lays out his plan in a perfect way and is sure of the future outcome. But He does not control his employees unnecessarily. He intervenes only when it is necessary. That's why Jesus did not come earth until it was time for Him. That's what is meant by free will my dear.

'say 'GOD is one, the self sufficient, He beget not nor was He begotten, and there is none co equal or comparable to Him' Quran 112 : 1-4

[center]The pedophile is here, [/center]

lightwalk:

Maybe you will understand if i explain it you like a child.
God's will does not encompass every minute action. In fact I did say about 60% of the things we do are outside his will.

And the bible does say that u are wrong:

Rom 9:19
(19) You may ask me, "Then why does God still find fault with anybody? For who can resist his will?" - [The obvious answer to this question is "NO ONE". Being outside his will would mean resisting it.]

Dan 4:35
(35) To him the nations are far less than nothing; God controls the stars in the sky and everyone on this earth. When God does something, we cannot change it or even ask why." - [The control shown which God exhibits over us is 100% of the time; so we are never outside his will]

It's just like a company that has a vision to develop a wired world. The employees are told not to do things that are outside the vision of the company. The manager lays out his plan in a perfect way and is sure of the future outcome. But He does not control his employees unnecessarily. He intervenes only when it is necessary. That's why Jesus did not come earth until it was time for Him. That's what is meant by free will my dear.

Sorry, this doesn't portray how God is or how he functions. Ur scenario above shows that the employees are in control of their wills.
In the case of God, our wills are determined by his.

So daft, We'll talk again when you grow

lightwalk:

So daft, We'll talk again when you grow

It doesn't have to be this way u know.

But the fact still remains: We can't resist God's will; so our wills are subject and dependent on his own (This is the plain truth).

Why do we shy away from the obvious?

Php 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The above is confirming the fact that whatever we are willing at any point in time is because of God working in us to do of his good pleasure.
Another way of putting it is: It is because God is working in us [remember the control from some other verse? ] that we will at all.