Ranchhoddas:
My theory: At least one of the requirements for the healing was not present.

But that seems to be the case all of the time. Since we are yet to see one unambiguous of that kind. The scientific method would not recognize this as valid and we know the scientific is a successful one (albeit rather slow).

You can treat all options with a level of agnosticism but it doesn't mean that all options are equally valid.

CoolUsername:


But that seems to be the case all of the time. Since we are yet to see one unambiguous of that kind. The scientific method would not recognize this as valid and we know the scientific is a successful one (albeit rather slow).

You can treat all options with a level of agnosticism but it doesn't mean that all options are equally valid.

Not all of the time. Just the cases you've seen. The world is a really large place.

Ranchhoddas:
Not all of the time. Just the cases you've seen. The world is a really large place.

Have you seen it? Our have you seen peer reviewed experiments of it? Or have you seen predictions that have been met that corroborate with it? If not, then you have no right tell anyone to consider its possibility.

Ranchoddas get time sha. See as topic got derailed.

CoolUsername:


Have you seen it? Our have you seen peer reviewed experiments of it? Or have you seen predictions that have been met that corroborate with it? If not, then you have no right tell anyone to consider its possibility.

I ain't telling you to consider jack Sir. I know you won't.

blessedvisky:
Ranchoddas get time sha. See as topic got derailed.

Lol. No be my fault, I dey jobless that's why.

Ranchhoddas:
I ain't telling you to consider jack Sir. I know you won't.

No, I just feel that you indecision on this matter isn't based on rational thought. No offense. You hold no opinion and think that somehow makes you right.

Ranchhoddas:
Lol. No be my fault, I dey jobless that's why.

For real?.

CoolUsername:


No, I just feel that you indecision on this matter isn't based on rational thought. No offense. You hold no opinion and think that somehow makes you right.

I hold an opinion. I believe that the supernatural is real. That's an opinion.

blessedvisky:
For real?.

Yeah. You have a job for me?

Ranchhoddas:
I hold an opinion. I believe that the supernatural is real. That's an opinion.

And your opinion has no bearing on fact, neither does mine. So the moment you failed to provide unambiguous evidence, your opinion became false.

CoolUsername:


And your opinion has no bearing on fact, neither does mine. So the moment you failed to provide unambiguous evidence, your opinion became false.

Nope. It is false to you simply because we both have different definitions of the word ''evidence''.

Ranchhoddas:
Yeah. You have a job for me?

Yes. Can you be a pastor in a small fellowship??

blessedvisky:

Yes. Can you be a pastor in a small fellowship??

Hahahaa...Absolutely not.

Ranchhoddas:
Hahahaa...Absolutely not.

Why not?

blessedvisky:
Why not?

I am unworthy

Ranchhoddas:
I am unworthy

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Ranchhoddas:
Nope. It is false to you simply because we both have different definitions of the word ''evidence''.

Objective evidence such as experiments, or fulfilled predictions.

Not subjective evidence like anecdotes. We can't build bridges or planes with principles based on anecdotes.

CoolUsername:


Objective evidence such as experiments, or fulfilled predictions.

Not subjective evidence like anecdotes. We can't build bridges or planes with principles based on anecdotes.

Sorry. What I have is what you'd call subjective.

hopefulLandlord:


and isn't it fishy that

many atheists told 4evergod that they'll bring a cripple and they'll foot all their bills themselves and Naijadeyhia simply ignored? what was he afraid of? whenever he's ready, he can visit that thread and accept their challenge

The Fishy stench must be from you since you perceive it so strongly. Perhaps you think you are relevant to my credibility same way you think God owes you a miracle before he can be relevant to you. Perhaps you need to channel your angst towards those who have been bombarding me with requests for Gods intervention in their lives and its on record that God has been on point for each and every one.

You should be asking for your croony Dalaman and his whereabouts ever since he messed himself up with his tomfoolery on that thread.

I am still very much here but where is he?

4everGod:



The Fishy stench must be from you since you perceive it so strongly. Perhaps you think you are relevant to my credibility same way you think God owes you a miracle before he can be relevant to you. Perhaps you need to channel your angst towards those who have been bombarding me with requests for Gods intervention in their lives and its on record that God has been on point for each and every one.

You should be asking for your croony Dalaman and his whereabouts ever since he messed himself up with his tomfoolery on that thread.

I am still very much here but where is he?

I won't trade insults with you, that's apparently the only thing you're good at; take a chill pill, count to 10

what's stopping you from taking Hahn's challenge?

So are you saying that something defying rational explanation means god(s) did it? The history of man is full of many events considered supernatural just because humans at the time didn't understand them. Today most such events (e.g. lightning, rain, etc) are not (for the most part) anymore considered supernatural whatsoever.

Are you familiar with the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof?" This phrase is one of the bedrocks of rational inquiry. It is perfectly reasonable for atheists (and just about anyone) to be skeptical about claims of a cripple being healed; "why?", you may ask. Well this is because it is an extraordinary claim such that extraordinary evidence is needed to believe it. Example evidence for instance would be images of the cripple's spinal MRI before and after the healing. A perfect unfalsifiable healing candidate would be a cripple whose spine was completely severed before the supposed healing act.

Peep this: if I told you that I physically levitated into the sky and visited the planet Mars last night, would you believe me? Likely not. So in the same way you shouldn't treat the healthy skepticism of atheists as misguided; similar to how I wouldn't treat your skepticism about my Mars visit as misguided.

We all need skepticism in order to identify what is true and what is not. Modern science wouldn't be here today if people accepted hear-say as fact. Rational inquiry and objectivity run on skepticism.

No proof has ever been presented of an unfalsifiable miracle happening, ever. I'm talking about miracles such as the reattachment of a severed human head during prayer or the reattachment or regrowth of an amputated limb through prayer. Or the reawakening of the fully rotten skeleton of someone as a result of prayer.

If Yahweh (or any other deity) were all-powerful, why wouldn't it perform miracles that cannot be faked? Don't you think this is a critical & worthy question?

Ranchhoddas:
It's not important to believe anything. It's just that there are some phenomena that defy rational explanation and the 'hardcore' atheists have failed to provide any sensible explanation to these things other than saying they did not happen or that they were stage-managed or some other insensible thing. A pastor simply prays for a crippled man and he immediately rises and begins to walk, people who have known him for all of his crippled life are dumbstruck and livid with awe at the transformation they have seen. What manner of rational inquiry would you ask them to undertake? If this isn't supernatural, what is it then? The only other move you can make at this point will be to deny that the event ever happened?

Antiparticle:
So are you saying that something defying rational explanation means god(s) did it? The history of man is full of many events considered supernatural just because humans at the time didn't understand them. Today most such events (e.g. lightning, rain, etc) are not (for the most part) anymore considered supernatural whatsoever.

Are you familiar with the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof?" This phrase is one of the bedrocks of rational inquiry. It is perfectly reasonable for atheists (and just about anyone) to be skeptical about claims of a cripple being healed; "why?", you may ask. Well this is because it is an extraordinary claim such that extraordinary evidence is needed to believe it. Example evidence for instance would be images of the cripple's spinal MRI before and after the healing. A perfect unfalsifiable healing candidate would be a cripple whose spine was completely severed before the supposed healing act.

Peep this: if I told you that I physically levitated into the sky and visited the planet Mars last night, would you believe me? Likely not. So in the same way you shouldn't treat the healthy skepticism of atheists as misguided; similar to how I wouldn't treat your skepticism about my Mars visit as misguided.

We all need skepticism in order to identify what is true and what is not. Modern science wouldn't be here today if people accepted hear-say as fact. Rational inquiry and objectivity run on skepticism.

No proof has ever been presented of an unfalsifiable miracle happening, ever. I'm talking about miracles such as the reattachment of a severed human head during prayer or the reattachment or regrowth of an amputated limb through prayer. Or the reawakening of the fully rotten skeleton of someone as a result of prayer.

If Yahweh (or any other deity) were all-powerful, why wouldn't it perform miracles that cannot be faked? Don't you think this is a critical & worthy question?

Like I've told others before you, those miracles do not happen for your amusement. There are laws governing their occurences and if you do not obey them, they won't happen. Your skepticism does not negate the fact that they happen and continue to happen.

hopefulLandlord:

I won't trade insults with you, that's apparently the only thing you're good at; take a chill pill, count to 10

what's stopping you from taking Hahn's challenge?

And what makes you think I am your stooge that would dance to yout every whim and caprice? I should now stoop to the level of every kid Atheist who thinks himself smart.

You are the one who needs to take a Chill Pill and count to 10 especially with the way you have been everywhere shouting "God must heal an amputee" like some broken record or the way you hyperventilate over a God you claim you do not know if he exists or not hence your "I don't know answers everytime" but your actions betray your very claims of being open minded which is why rather than being a passive observer or genuinely seeking for truth to your questions you rathet bash and ridicule even those you seek answers from and especially the one you claim he may or may not exist.

Who cares what you or Hahn or whoever perceives as God or your ideas about his existence or non existence...Has that in some crazy way stopped Christianity and its growth dead in its tracks?

I suggest you first become honest to yourself and genuinely ask the right questions and seek the right answers and not this Childish posturing you have been displaying everywhere deceiptfully while brandishing the "I am open minded" placard when you know you clearly are not!

4everGod:



And what makes you think I am your stooge that would dance to yout every whim and caprice? I should now stoop to the level of every kid Atheist who thinks himself smart.

You are the one who needs to take a Chill Pill and count to 10 especially with the way you have been everywhere shouting "God must heal an amputee" like some broken record or the way you hyperventilate over a God you claim you do not know if he exists or not hence your "I don't know answers everytime" but your actions betray your very claims of being open minded which is why rather than being a passive observer or genuinely seeking for truth to your questions you rathet bash and ridicule even those you seek answers from and especially the one you claim he may or may not exist.

Who cares what you or Hahn or whoever perceives as God or your ideas about his existence or non existence...Has that in some crazy way stopped Christianity and its growth dead in its tracks?

I suggest you first become honest to yourself and genuinely ask the right questions and seek the right answers and not this Childish posturing you have been displaying everywhere deceiptfully while brandishing the "I am open minded" placard when you know you clearly are not!

Your God cannot heal any Amputee... Your God does not exist, except in your head.

frank317:


Your God cannot heal any Amputee... Your God does not exist, except in your head.

Yet you are so fixated on a fictitious idea you say is in my head. Your comment here shows He exists in YOUR head as well.

Ok, still waiting for an amputated limb miracle.

Ranchhoddas:
Like I've told others before you, those miracles do not happen for your amusement. There are laws governing their occurences and if you do not obey them, they won't happen. Your skepticism does not negate the fact that they happen and continue to happen.

4everGod:



And what makes you think I am your stooge that would dance to yout every whim and caprice? I should now stoop to the level of every kid Atheist who thinks himself smart.

You are the one who needs to take a Chill Pill and count to 10 especially with the way you have been everywhere shouting "God must heal an amputee" like some broken record or the way you hyperventilate over a God you claim you do not know if he exists or not hence your "I don't know answers everytime" but your actions betray your very claims of being open minded which is why rather than being a passive observer or genuinely seeking for truth to your questions you rathet bash and ridicule even those you seek answers from and especially the one you claim he may or may not exist.

Who cares what you or Hahn or whoever perceives as God or your ideas about his existence or non existence...Has that in some crazy way stopped Christianity and its growth dead in its tracks?

I suggest you first become honest to yourself and genuinely ask the right questions and seek the right answers and not this Childish posturing you have been displaying everywhere deceiptfully while brandishing the "I am open minded" placard when you know you clearly are not!

you're just ranting while not saying much at all

no one is ordering you around

"right questions"? who is the judge of a question being the " right" one? you? lol!

I'm asking to see a limb growing miracle, its not too much to ask, is it?

or the right question is to "diligently seek him"

I no get time to dey find god wet dey hide from his "creation"

Secondly; you agreed that you'll take up Stephendamsoho's challenge on the limb growing stuff IF Dalaman's own hits a brick wall

its funny how you ignored his comment when he reminded you of that

or does the holy spirit only work with Dalaman's amputee?

he even said you shouldn't worry about any money this time, just meet him at national orthopaedic hospital in Igbobi and do what you said Yahweh would do through you

and about me being "closed minded" you're not being honest with yourself, if I'm closed minded, I wouldn't even pay any attention to this limb growing thingy while telling myself that it doesn't prove shit

but I didn't, I requested for it, opened a thread from the second day of your agreement, monitored conversations and even reminded both of you from time to time

and the biggest of it all, I SAID I'LL BECOME A CHRISTIAN IF I SEE THE LIMB GROW THROUGH YOU AND YAHWEH

that's open mindedness, still being open to the possibilities

but open mindedness according to you must be jumping into one religion and pretending like most of you guys? nah

abeg, talk beta tin

The issue I see here is that you appear to automatically distrust the motives of people who concluded that theistic religion and its claims are a sham. This is not an attack on you, just an observation of a sentiment that you should examine. Is it wrong for someone to want to know the truth? Is it wrong to want to be able to separate truth from myths? You seem dismissive of anyone willing to question the accuracy of miracle claims. Shouldn't there be reasons to be skeptical about these claims? If these claims are true, they will eventually vindicate themselves and come out even greater. But they never have, why?

If asking questions is forbidden, then that's a problem.

The best things that have happened to our world in the past 500 years have been because of skepticism, i.e. rational thinkers don't accept something to be true because someone else said so; we accept things to be true because they are logically unassailable and/or clear evidence is provided. This is the reason why the phone in your hand works, the reason why GPS can tell you where you are, the reason why humans discovered the germ theory of disease, the reason why we have vaccines to pre-empt diseases, the reason why we can make airplanes fly, and more. If people weren't skeptical about claims of the spirit world controlling all aspects of the physical world, nobody would have tried to figure out the physical mechanisms of nature.

If people never question claims of the supernatural, we would still be in an age where epilepsy would be considered a strictly spiritual condition, the earth would still be considered flat, all sickness would be considered to be due to "bad air" or spirits, and more. Skepticism is one of the reasons why humanity moves forward.

Ranchhoddas:
Like I've told others before you, those miracles do not happen for your amusement. There are laws governing their occurences and if you do not obey them, they won't happen. Your skepticism does not negate the fact that they happen and continue to happen.

Antiparticle:
The issue I see here is that you appear to automatically distrust the motives of people who concluded that theistic religion and its claims are a sham. This is not an attack on you, just an observation of a sentiment that you should examine. Is it wrong for someone to want to know the truth? Is it wrong to want to be able to separate truth from myths? You seem dismissive of anyone willing to question the accuracy of miracle claims. Shouldn't there be reasons to be skeptical about these claims? If these claims are true, they will eventually vindicate themselves and come out even greater. But they never have, why?

If asking questions is forbidden, then that's a problem.

The best things that have happened to our world in the past 500 years have been because of skepticism, i.e. rational thinkers don't accept something to be true because someone else said so; we accept things to be true because they are logically unassailable and/or clear evidence is provided. This is the reason why the phone in your hand works, the reason why GPS can tell you where you are, the reason why humans discovered the germ theory of disease, the reason why we have vaccines to pre-empt diseases, the reason why we can make airplanes fly, and more. If people weren't skeptical about claims of the spirit world controlling all aspects of the physical world, nobody would have tried to figure out the physical mechanisms of nature.

If people never question claims of the supernatural, we would still be in an age where epilepsy would be considered a strictly spiritual condition, the earth would still be considered flat, all sickness would be considered to be due to "bad air" or spirits, and more. Skepticism is one of the reasons why humanity moves forward.

What real attempts have you made to find out the truth? Anyone who REALLY wants to verify these 'miracle' claims would simply carry out an HONEST research. Go to the next crusade in your vicinity and see the number of people that would be healed or one form of ailment or another. Interview as many as possible and come back to tell us that they were paid to fake them. I am a skeptic myself but rationality is enough to make anyone in Nigeria see that these things actually happen. If they did not, we'd be faced with scandals upon scandals of people who have been paid to fake healing. Where are they?

I think you are continuing to distrust the motives of atheists. Ok. If these miracles are not fake, why is it that unfakeable miracles never happen? Why?

I used to think that miracles were real (and that I was a beneficiary of a miracle or two) but it is now clear that all claims of miracles stop holding water whenever you remove ambiguity, placebo, or coincidence.

I am a bit surprised that you assert that miracles happen, yet these pastors can't simply go to Igbobi hospital to heal people with amputated limbs, why? Is god afraid of amputees? Why can't these so-called pastors tell us the location of the Chibok girls?

Why do all claims of miracles disappear when ambiguity and placebo are removed?

There has not been one unfakeable miracle, ever. Why? That you believe we should just accept on hearsay that miracles happen is itself problematic.

That you assume I haven't made real attempts to find out if miracles happen is deeply cynical, even though you don't know me and have never met me. I can't understand why you have antipathy for me because I disagree with your assertion about miracles. I grew up in a very Pentecostal church environment with several claims of miracles, but it is clear to me that these supposed miracles were not so.

People think miracles happen because of cognitive biases such as confirmation bias, confusing of correlation with causation, and logical fallacies. If you care about the truth, you would dig as deep as you can to verify if miracles happen. But I'm afraid you are already cynical about those who are relentless about finding the truth.

Ranchhoddas:
What real attempts have you made to find out the truth? Anyone who REALLY wants to verify these 'miracle' claims would simply carry out an HONEST research. Go to the next crusade in your vicinity and see the number of people that would be healed or one form of ailment or another. Interview as many as possible and come back to tell us that they were paid to fake them. I am a skeptic myself but rationality is enough to make anyone in Nigeria see that these things actually happen. If they did not, we'd be faced with scandals upon scandals of people who have been paid to fake healing. Where are they?

Antiparticle:
I think you are continuing to distrust the motives of atheists. Ok. If these miracles are not fake, why is it that unfakeable miracles never happen? Why?

I used to think that miracles were real (and that I was a beneficiary of a miracle or two) but it is now clear that all claims of miracles stop holding water whenever you remove ambiguity, placebo, or coincidence.

I am a bit surprised that you assert that miracles happen, yet these pastors can't simply go to Igbobi hospital to heal people with amputated limbs, why? Is god afraid of amputees? Why can't these so-called pastors tell us the location of the Chibok girls?

Why do all claims of miracles disappear when ambiguity and placebo are removed?

There has not been one unfakeable miracle, ever. Why? That you believe we should just accept on hearsay that miracles happen is itself problematic.

That you assume I haven't made real attempts to find out if miracles happen is deeply cynical, even though you don't know me and have never met me. I can't understand why you have antipathy for me because I disagree with your assertion about miracles. I grew up in a very Pentecostal church environment with several claims of miracles, but it is clear to me that these supposed miracles were not so.

People think miracles happen because of cognitive biases such as confirmation bias, confusing of correlation with causation, and logical fallacies. If you care about the truth, you would dig as deep as you can to verify if miracles happen. But I'm afraid you are already cynical about those who are relentless about finding the truth.

Same old, same old. What attempts have you made to determine the veracity of those 'fakeable' miracles? Does 'fakeability' mean falsity?