noetic15:


so why then should he make heaven after dedicating his life to the service of idols?

Idols? Clearly you did not read the quotes of Ghandi i placed above.

See some of them on God:

Seeking God: "I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it.

Faith in God: "Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of the ocean."

God is Strength: "Who am I? I have no strength save what God gives me. I have no authority over my countrymen save the pure moral. If He holds me to be a pure instrument for the spread of non-violence in place of the awful violence now ruling the earth, He will give me the strength and show me the way. My greatest weapon is mute prayer. The cause of peace is therefore, in God's good hands."

Deep Sight:


Idols? Clearly you did not read the quotes of Ghandi i placed above.

See some of them on God:

Seeking God: "I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it.

Faith in God: "Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of the ocean."

God is Strength: "Who am I? I have no strength save what God gives me. I have no authority over my countrymen save the pure moral. If He holds me to be a pure instrument for the spread of non-violence in place of the awful violence now ruling the earth, He will give me the strength and show me the way. My greatest weapon is mute prayer. The cause of peace is therefore, in God's good hands."

Ghandi's understanding of God is completely different from what the bible teaches. Ghandi rejected Jesus, as such he has rejected God.
u find it impossible to conceive in the container of ur imagination that Ghandi would go to hell . . . .but thats not mmy proposition but the word of God.
Ghandi refused the gift of salvation. . .why should he then inherit eternal life?

noetic15:

what sort of nonsense is this?

is Ghandi a peace maker? what do u understand by peace makers?

If you can state this, it is clear you are completely ignorant of what the man dedicated his life to.

If you can state this, i cannot and will not continue with this discussion.

I give up on you.

Deep Sight:

If you can state this, it is clear you are completely ignorant of what the man dedicated his life to.

If you can state this, i cannot and will not continue with this discussion.

I give up on you.

I gave up on u from ur first post on this thread. It showed that u are completely ignorant of what the scriptures says about eternity.

is Ghandi a peace maker?
in human language YES: based on his great revolutionary work in India.
but in bible terms NOPE.

@Noetic 15

Thank you for your response. Below is my response to some of the issues you raised in your post:

The truth Jesus brought to the world is not subject to the unbiblical analyses u have stated. And I find it disturbing that I have to respond to such. Honestly your claims are very ambiguous

I have never said that I draw from the bible or that I am making a biblical analysis. I have said repeatedly that I do not quote or interprete the bible. Those who do not want to examine what I post because I do not quote the bible should ignore my posts. Alternatively if a thread is said to welcome only contributions with biblical analysis, you will not find me there.

The truth of Christ is the establishment of the kingdom of God. The link to that kingdom is Jesus Christ, His salvation and divinity. I do not know of any biblical injunction that allows that the death of Jesus be seperated from his message. Recognising Jesus as the Son of God is a personal choice and just like the acknowledgement of His death and salvation. The death of Jesus is a spiritual event that took place from the foundation of the world as the remedy for the sins and disconnect of man. To disregard or dismiss the death on the cross is an attempt to look at the death from a mere physical angle. The death on the cross dennoted several spiritual dimensions and events namely:
# the tearing of the holiest of the holiest of the temple. . . . thus allowing that abode of God became in humans and not in temple.
# the ressurection of the dead to eternity.
# the manifestation of the holy spirit to man. prior to that it has been the exclusive preserve of a select few.
# the radical redirection of the religious practices of that age.

No, I did not disregard the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God. I only stated that salvation and remission of sins do not lie in his death but in the word of God that he brought to humanity. I also stated that the death of of the physical body of Jesus was murder and an outrage against the will of God. If it is the will of God that Jesus will die, why then did Jesus pray to his Father for the cup to pass away. How can Jesus who is a son of God, a part of God the Father pray that the cup should pass away if the cup (his death) is the will of God. Even on earth, Jesus is one with God the Father and knows with clinical precision what is the will of his Father. That he prayed in Gethsemani is  a clear evidence that his death is not the will of God. Jesus knew that his subsequent death is as a result of the free will of men under the influence of Lucifer, the antichrist. Jesus prayed in Gethsemani to recieve the strength from God the Father so as to pass through the gruesome physical torture and subsequent murder with equananimity and imperturbtabilty. If it is the will of God for Jesus to die, Why then did Jesus ask his Father to forgive those who orchestrated and executed his death? Do you ask for forgiveness when you do the will of God? or you ask for forgiveness when you disobey the will of God? Yes his death has spiritual implication but not they way you see it. Indeed the whole creation was outranged, that even the elements shouted in protest. When the sun darkens and the holiest of holies is torn, it is actually signs of estrangement from divinity rather than reconciliation. By your train of thought, Judas, the high priests, Caiphas and others were doing the will of God as they plotted and finally executed the physical body of the son of God. Again another crude analogy may suffice. Ones wife and kids are trapped in a burning house. The intesity of the inferno was so much that fire fighters, neigbours lacked the courage to go in for they fear that they may die in the process. As the husband looked at the inferno and the incapability of the fire fighters and neighbours, the deep love for his wife and kids silenced all fear and out of this love, the husband stepped forward to save his wife and kids even though he is aware that he may die in the process. Couragiously he moved into the burning house and succeded in saving his wife and kids from the ranging inferno. Sadly he suffered fatal burns and died shortly afterwords. It is correct to report that he entered the burning inferno out of love for his family. It is correct to report that he entered the burning house to save his family. It is correct to report that he died in the process of saving his family. It is absolutely wrong to say that he entered the burning house to die and his death is what saved his family. I hope you may be able to relate this analogy to the mission, death and resurrection of the son of God.

It is pertinent to understand that the death and ressurection of Jesus lend credence to several events as we see of it today. Its spiritual significance is better illustrated in the sonship one enjoys with God today. If one does not have to believe in the death and ressurection of Jesus. . how then does one become a Child of God? how then does one get the holy spirit? how does one get to fellowship with God, since He no longer resides in man made temples?

The message of Jesus did NOT connect your to God. . . . . twas His death and ressurection that did. By believing He died and was raised, we receive the power to become God's sons, by using this power (holy spirit) we become God's sons and inherit eternity. how then can u become a child of God without believing the death and resurrection of Christ.

Jesus brought Light into the darkness of this world. He is the Light himself. Because he is a part of God the Father, he has the power to transmit both absolute Truth and and divine miracles. The word he brought is the seed that on germination purified the darkness encasing the souls and liberating them from the shacles of sin. It is the word of Jesus that does the miracle of  opening the path to God. In the word of Jesus also lies the power to thread the path leading to heaven, the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood including that of Jesus remain physical substance and cannot even rise to worlds closer to earth, much less the spiritual kingdom of God. God is not in his creations. God can only enter creation by incarnation as happened 2000 years ago in Jesus of Nazereth. After his death and subsequent resurrection, the divinity that is Jesus returned back to his Father. Thus there is no God in creation and any worship of anything in creation is idolatory. When Jesus forgived sins, he did it becuase he is God. It is God that is Jesus that forgave sins, not the pysical body of Jesus. The physical body of Jesus, that his flesh and blood are physical and it is idolatory to inwardly or outwardly expect the physical blood to wash away sins.

contrary to your assertion. . .Jesus came to the earth to die for our sins and He made that very very clear. He foretold His death and also affirmed that whatsoever is asked in his name (after He has resurrected), according to the will of God will be granted. how then can anyone dismiss this singular event of His death and ressurection?
The xtian hope is largely centred around the victory over death. . . . .the core message of the gospel has been about his resurrection.
This singular event gave the likes of peter and other disciples the faith and courage to preach the gospel at the expense of their lives. . .how then can u seprate this from Christ's message? . . . . .Salvation lies in the death of Jesus.

I will not at this moment explain the meachanism underlying prophecies. What I will say at the moment is that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to show them that LIFE survives physical death, that physical death is but a transition or birth into another world. Christ however did not ressurect in a physicl body as is wildly believed but in a transformed body.

our understanding of "LOVE" has no place with the bible, Jesus or God.

That is your opinion. I respect it but do not agree with it. Stay blessed.

@ m_nwankwo
Let me start by commending ur inherent ability to intelligibly present ur thoughts and analyses. Though I disagree with ALL your assertions, I must however commend ur tenacity, conviction and intellectual strength to present and defend ur beliefs. I commend u because, u are the ONLY one who I have debated on this forum (in the past two years) who was bold enough to produce an explicit analyses of his thoughts, beliefs and convictions regardless of how disagreeable they sound. Let me add that while I disagree, I also find ur points unconvincing though salient.

No, I did not disregard the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God. I only stated that salvation and remission of sins do not lie in his death but in the word of God that he brought to humanity. I also stated that the death of of the physical body of Jesus was murder and an outrage against the will of God. If it is the will of God that Jesus will die, why then did Jesus pray to his Father for the cup to pass away. How can Jesus who is a son of God, a part of God the Father pray that the cup should pass away if the cup (his death) is the will of God. Even on earth, Jesus is one with God the Father and knows with clinical precision what is the will of his Father. That he prayed in Gethsemani is a clear evidence that his death is not the will of God. Jesus knew that his subsequent death is as a result of the free will of men under the influence of Lucifer, the antichrist. Jesus prayed in Gethsemani to recieve the strength from God the Father so as to pass through the gruesome physical torture and subsequent murder with equananimity and imperturbtabilty. If it is the will of God for Jesus to die, Why then did Jesus ask his Father to forgive those who orchestrated and executed his death? Do you ask for forgiveness when you do the will of God? or you ask for forgiveness when you disobey the will of God? Yes his death has spiritual implication but not they way you see it. Indeed the whole creation was outranged, that even the elements shouted in protest. When the sun darkens and the holiest of holies is torn, it is actually signs of estrangement from divinity rather than reconciliation. By your train of thought, Judas, the high priests, Caiphas and others were doing the will of God as they plotted and finally executed the physical body of the son of God. Again another crude analogy may suffice. Ones wife and kids are trapped in a burning house. The intesity of the inferno was so much that fire fighters, neigbours lacked the courage to go in for they fear that they may die in the process. As the husband looked at the inferno and the incapability of the fire fighters and neighbours, the deep love for his wife and kids silenced all fear and out of this love, the husband stepped forward to save his wife and kids even though he is aware that he may die in the process. Couragiously he moved into the burning house and succeded in saving his wife and kids from the ranging inferno. Sadly he suffered fatal burns and died shortly afterwords. It is correct to report that he entered the burning inferno out of love for his family. It is correct to report that he entered the burning house to save his family. It is correct to report that he died in the process of saving his family. It is absolutely wrong to say that he entered the burning house to die and his death is what saved his family. I hope you may be able to relate this analogy to the mission, death and resurrection of the son of God.

1. What is the essential message of God that the prophets sould not deliver, that the Son had to come and deliver Himself? If the message of Christ was just the "TRUTH" like u love to illustrate then one would wonder why John the baptist could not deliver that message or why there was no prophet recorded in the scriptures between malachi and mathew, which was a period of 400 years. One had to wonder what was so unique about the message and physical manifestation of God that the prophets could not deliver.
before the advent of Jesus, there were many prophets with innumerable works and miracles. Some included Elisha, Elijah and moses. This simply implies that the miracles of Jesus could not have been the unique issue about Jesus.
You would agree with me that the unique point of Jesus visitation was His message. but the content of that message is what we both differ on. It is in light of this that I state that ur analogy above about the death of Jesus does not hold water. I would like to reiterate here that the core message of Jesus was His death and resurrection as defined by the love He commanded. On these basis I make the following assertions.

a. The death of Jesus was the will of God.
# The prayer of Jesus in the garden was very simple. that the will of God be done. To suggest that Jesus died outside of God's will is to suggest that His prayer in the garden was not answered. . .what then is the basis of the xtian/beliver's prayer.
# His coming, death and ressurection was long prophesied long before the principal actor in His murder/crucifixion was born. His death was prophesied hundreds of years before Judas was born, before the priests were born and before the castigators were born. fro where did these prophecies come from? they came from God and God's will alone was done.
# Jesus gave several hints that He was to be killed. And He also illustrated on several occasions that His victory over death would be the basis of the new covenant. He said that "break this temple, and I will raise it in 3 days" . . . . .he was refering to himself. He mentioned severally in Luke 22:22 Luke22:53 and mathew 26:53 that He was to be betrayed and would die. I believe that Jesus was aware of His death and this death was the will of God.
# Apostle Paul would later state that If Christ did not die or ressurect, that there would be no basis for Christianity. This message implies that the crux of the xtian faith and hope lies solely in the divinity of Jesus as expressed on the cross and His ressurection.

b. The blood of Jesus wipes away sin.
I understand that ur position might be influenced from the bastardization of the blood of Jesus by the present day church, but ur position is very far from the truth.
The blood of Jesus is an integral and essential part of the gospel, and as a matter of fact, this is the ONLY thing Christ wants the church to do in remembrance of Him by drinking the wine as done in the last supper and repeated as a holy communion in churches all over the world.
To understand the import of this blood, one needs to understand the primordial process through which sins were forgiven as ordained in the laws of the prophets. as a matter of fact, there was NO remission of sins as written in the laws of moses. offenders were usually stoned to death or excommunicated. This was the state of things before the coming of Jesus.
how then does one explain the confidence of jews like peter and paul who were conversant with the laws of moses, that their sins were forgiven? these were people who had believed all their lives that the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death. . .only now to turn around and not only to proclaim forgiveness but the right to live till eternity.
The blood of Jesus is the MOST crucial part of the message of Jesus. In that blood is the right to overcome sin and attain pardon.
Except for the death and resurrection of Jesus including His immaculate birth the gospel of Jesus holds no uniqueness in the context of previous prophets.

c. As far as ur above analogy is concerned, the man who went into the fire took a rist out of love. but ur analogy is porous for several reasons.
# Jesus knows the beginning from the end. As such could not have gone into the fire without knowing the outcome. So if Jesus went into the fire and died in the fire, then He knew of it and as such approved of it.
# The crucifixion of Jesus was ordained from the foundation of the world.

Jesus brought Light into the darkness of this world. He is the Light himself. Because he is a part of God the Father, he has the power to transmit both absolute Truth and and divine miracles. The word he brought is the seed that on germination purified the darkness encasing the souls and liberating them from the shacles of sin. It is the word of Jesus that does the miracle of opening the path to God. In the word of Jesus also lies the power to thread the path leading to heaven, the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood including that of Jesus remain physical substance and cannot even rise to worlds closer to earth, much less the spiritual kingdom of God. God is not in his creations. God can only enter creation by incarnation as happened 2000 years ago in Jesus of Nazereth. After his death and subsequent resurrection, the divinity that is Jesus returned back to his Father. Thus there is no God in creation and any worship of anything in creation is idolatory. When Jesus forgived sins, he did it becuase he is God. It is God that is Jesus that forgave sins, not the pysical body of Jesus. The physical body of Jesus, that his flesh and blood are physical and it is idolatory to inwardly or outwardly expect the physical blood to wash away sins.

1. while I agree that Jesus brought light into our darkness, ur understanding and definition of that light does NOT capture the light Jesus represented.
The light He brought was within the acknowledgement and worship of God, to renew hope and let us know that we have a sonship right to live at eternity if only we believe.
believing has to do with believing Jesus as the son of God, His divinity and death. why should anyone believe his words and not believe his death or resurrection?
Jesus came to save the world. . .from what? from sin. How can one live in denial of this principal purpose and then claim to love Jesus or have the love of Christ in him?

2. Jesus specifically asked that wine be drank in remembrance of Him as depicted in the last supper. This is what is done in the form of a communion in millions of churches world wide. This is not in any way a form of idolatory. . . no one is worshipping the blood. All xtians are doing is to acknowledge the sacrifice involved in the shedding of that blood.

3. Except a man be saved, except he acknowledges the salvation of Jesus as depicted on the cross. . .he is CONDEMNED regardless of his good works.

@ KunleOshob

A. Do u (kunle) believe that Jesus died and rose? Yes i do.
B. Do u (kunle) believe that (A) is the basis and centre of Jesus mission on earth? No, his primary mission on earth is to teach the truth of God's will and love to mankind.

Thank u for ur response. I would however like to know what the "TRUTH" of Jesus gospel was. what was the truth about? was it the same message primordial prophets have preached? why would Jesus have to come and deliver the message Himself? why did he not just send a prophet?

C. Do u (kunle) believe that without believing in event (A), one can make heaven? Belief in event (A) is not taught as a condition to mak heaven anywhere in the bible.

have u ever come across John 3:16-17 and 1 corth 15:14-21 ? what do these verses tell u?

D. Do u (kunle) believe in the salvation of Jesus? I do believe in the salvation of Jesus, but the problem is that your understanding of the salvation concept of Jesus gospel is different from mine. Belief in Jesus is belief and obeying his teachings/commandments which goes deeper than the shallow belief that he just came and died. This is very clear from the scriptures, however the church has obscured to true meaning of salvation. You nee to open your mind read the scriptures again from scratch and let the holy spirit feed your spirit whilst you divorce your mind from popular pulpit gibberish.

can u shed more light and educate me on ur understanding of the salvation of Jesus? I want to understand what u understand as the salvation of Jesus?

I am a late comer to this thread but it shldnt take 2 pages to answer the thread -

NO! He that believeth NOT is condemned ALREADY!

2 Peter 3:10-13 Contemporary English Version (CEV):


¹⁰The day of the Lord's return will surprise us like a thief.

The heavens will disappear with a loud noise, and the heat will melt the whole universe. Then the earth and everything on it will be seen for what they are.

¹¹Everything will be destroyed. So you should serve and honor God by the way you live.

¹²You should look forward to the day when God judges everyone, and you should try to make it come soon.

On that day the heavens will be destroyed by fire, and everything else will melt in the heat.

¹³But God has promised us a new heaven and a new earth, where justice will rule.

We are really looking forward to that!

[center]^{HEAVEN is the honeymoon of Christ and the church. Yall coming back down to Earth - Matthew 5:5} [/center]

davidylan:

I am a late comer to this thread but it shldnt take 2 pages to answer the thread -

NO! He that believeth NOT is condemned ALREADY!

Can yu repeat that statement in Hebrew? are yu sure that is the semantic translation of that statement? are all bible scholars agreed that those statements should be interpreted literaly?

Philippians 3:18-21 AMP:


¹⁸For there are many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, who walk (live) as enemies of the cross of Christ (the Anointed One).

¹⁹They are doomed and their fate is eternal misery (perdition); their god is their stomach (their appetites, their sensuality) and they glory in their shame, siding with earthly things and being of their party.

²⁰But we are citizens of the state (commonwealth, homeland) which is in heaven, and from it also we earnestly and patiently await [the coming of] the Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [as] Savior,

²¹Who will transform and fashion anew the body of our humiliation to conform to and be like the body of His glory and majesty, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself.

[center]^{HEAVEN is the honeymoon of Christ and the church. Yall coming back down to Earth - Matthew 5:5} [/center]

'say 'GOD is one, the self sufficient, He beget not nor was He begotten, and there is none co equal or comparable to Him' Quran 112 : 1-4

duduspace:

Can yu repeat that statement in Hebrew? are yu sure that is the semantic translation of that statement? are all bible scholars agreed that those statements should be interpreted literaly?

funny how you insist on a literal translation of the bible when it comes to portraying it in a negative light.

I do not need to repeat the statement in Hebrew, there are far too many bible verses corroborating it.

davidylan:

funny how you insist on a literal translation of the bible when it comes to portraying it in a negative light.

I do not need to repeat the statement in Hebrew, there are far too many bible verses corroborating it.

Perhaps, if you consider allowing people who do good go to heaven as portraying the bible in a negative light.
can you please quote just 5 of the other verses that corroborate it ?

duduspace:

Perhaps, if you consider allowing people who do good go to heaven as portraying the bible in a negative light.

I dont understand why those who declare themselves to be doing good need to force themselves into the biblical heaven culled from the same bible they regard as irrelevant.

duduspace:

can you please quote just 5 of the other verses that corroborate it ?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Literal explanation of all 5 examples:

1. The candidacy to heaven is very simple - YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN . . . it doesnt matter what you do that you self righteously term as "good". If you think your own personal "good" is enough to get you to heaven, create your own heaven and go there.

2. Without the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross, all your own "goodness" is irrelevant. However if you still feel you MUST go to heaven because of your "good" deeds, create your own heaven and go there.

3. The only route to salvation is BELIEVING IN JESUS CHRIST . . . if you choose not to believe, thrash the bible as a collection of medieval myths . . . then i wonder why you feel you reserve the right to enter heaven anyway. You can create your own.

4. Whosoever shall NOT call on the name of the Lord shall NOT be saved . . . good deeds or not.

5. As many as did NOT recieve Him, to them He did NOT bother to give power to become anything they wilfully chose to reject.

@ Noetic 15

@ m_nwankwo
Let me start by commending your inherent ability to intelligibly present your thoughts and analyses. Though I disagree with ALL your assertions, I must however commend your tenacity, conviction and intellectual strength to present and defend your beliefs. I commend u because, u are the ONLY one who I have debated on this forum (in the past two years) who was bold enough to produce an explicit analyses of his thoughts, beliefs and convictions regardless of how disagreeable they sound. Let me add that while I disagree, I also find your points unconvincing though salient.

Thank you for your kind words. I do respect your views although I do not agree with them. Let me address some of the issues that you have raised.

1. What is the essential message of God that the prophets sould not deliver, that the Son had to come and deliver Himself? If the message of Christ was just the "TRUTH" like u love to illustrate then one would wonder why John the baptist could not deliver that message or why there was no prophet recorded in the scriptures between malachi and mathew, which was a period of 400 years. One had to wonder what was so unique about the message and physical manifestation of God that the prophets could not deliver.
before the advent of Jesus, there were many prophets with innumerable works and miracles. Some included Elisha, Elijah and moses. This simply implies that the miracles of Jesus could not have been the unique issue about Jesus.
You would agree with me that the unique point of Jesus visitation was His message. but the content of that message is what we both differ on. It is in light of this that I state that your analogy above about the death of Jesus does not hold water. I would like to reiterate here that the core message of Jesus was His death and resurrection as defined by the love He commanded. On these basis I make the following assertions.

Jesus is not a prophet but the son of God, a part of God the Father. Prophets are either human spirits or in some cases spirits that are higher than human spirits. Because prophets are creatures, they are incapable of revealing the entire Truth. Thus, their message are simply recognitions that is revealed to them from Above. Thus their message or gospel consist of recognitions of aspects of the will of God. Even these aspects of the will of God are colored by the spiritual maturity of each prophet as well as the prevailing culture around the prophet. Prophets are also limited in Power since they are creatures and not part of God. Thus the prophets you mentioned and several others you did not mention brought limited recognitions of the will of God to various peoples. The darkness that enveloped humankind and their earthly environment was so much that the limited recognitions of the various prophets as well as their limited spiritual power cannot penetrate the darkness. The power of darkness has become so strong that any good volition is snuffed out even before it has a chance to become a deed. Thus the suffocating darkness separated humankind from God. Humanity was in danger of spiritual death. Here and there few spirit sparks are praying fervently to God to deliver them from the clutches of darkness. The power of the prophets is no longer a march to Lucifer and his henchmen. Humanity was in danger of eternal damnation. Their is only one choice left to save humanity, a direct intervention from God himself. God the Father out of love for the very few who are holding on to his will in-spite of the suffocating darkness severed a part of himself and incarnated it in a male sex-Jesus of Nazareth. Thus Jesus is a part of the God the Father and thus a son of God. Being an incarnation of God, Jesus brought light into the darkness. Because Jesus, is the son of God he has the power to transmit the Truth as well as the divine omnipotence that resulted in instantaneous miracles. No creature, prophet or angel no matter how blessed will be able to transmit the complete truth as Jesus did nor can they bring about instantaneous miracles as Jesus did. The instantaneous raising of Lazurus from the dead is just one example of what divine power can do. Indeed only the Truth can transmit truth. Prophets can only transmit limited reflection or images of some aspects of the Truth. Since Jesus is the LIFE, THE TRUTH AND THE WAY, he can transmit truth and life to humankind. The truth and the life lies in his message, in his words. You should remember that Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Thus Jesus is his words and his words is Jesus. Only when a man understands that Jesus and his words are the same thing will it be possible to recognize the mission of Jesus. None of the prophets you mentioned ever said that they are one with God the Father. Non of them ever claimed that they are the son of God. Indeed John the Baptist as well as John the apostle were prepared for thousands of years in non visible realms so that they can serve the son of God when he walks on earth. But the purpose of this reply is not to go into unveiling some of these mysteries.

a. The death of Jesus was the will of God.
# The prayer of Jesus in the garden was very simple. that the will of God be done. To suggest that Jesus died outside of God's will is to suggest that His prayer in the garden was not answered. .  .what then is the basis of the xtian/beliver's prayer.
# His coming, death and ressurection was long prophesied long before the principal actor in His murder/crucifixion was born. His death was prophesied hundreds of years before Judas was born, before the priests were born and before the castigators were born. fro where did these prophecies come from? they came from God and God's will alone was done.
# Jesus gave several hints that He was to be killed. And He also illustrated on several occasions that His victory over death would be the basis of the new covenant. He said that "break this temple, and I will raise it in 3 days" . . . . .he was refering to himself. He mentioned severally in Luke 22:22 Luke22:53 and mathew 26:53 that He was to be betrayed and would die. I believe that Jesus was aware of His death and this death was the will of God.
# Apostle Paul would later state that If Christ did not die or ressurect, that there would be no basis for Christianity. This message implies that the crux of the xtian faith and hope lies solely in the divinity of Jesus as expressed on the cross and His ressurection.

I have in my penultimate post stated that the death of Jesus is not the will of God. Jesus carries the will of God in himself and it is absurd that he will be praying for the will of God when he knows that will. How can a part of God the Father not know the will of God the Father? Is the betrayal by Judas, the mockery by the crowd, the trial, as well as the accusations by the high priests also the will of God? Before Jesus was incarnated on earth it was known that their is a possibility that he will be murdered. Jesus himself knew this. Prophets who were permitted access to the laws of God prophesied about it. Humanity were like wolfs and Jesus is a lamb being sent to a pack of wolves. The prophecies were actually to induce reflection and tame the wolfs so that they will take the message of the lamb and change themselves. We are free to make choices but once the choice is made, the road it will travel as it germinates precisely follows the map which God has placed in creation. That is the reason why God or those he blessed with the power can foresee events thousands and millions of years before they happen physically. If the spiritual condition at the time of prophecy remain the same as the earthly time for the materialization of the prophecy, then a prophecy will change from a possibility to a probability and then a certainty. Thousands of years before Jesus incarnated on earth, it was seen from Above that humanity is following darkness and thus if they continue on that path, they will attack and kill the son of God. As Jesus entered his mission, he knew that the darkness has more followers then than thousands of years earlier. It became clear to him that this prophecy about his death will become a certainty. Not because it is the will of his father but because humanity are disobeying the will of God and will not waste time in executing the son of God. The death of Jesus is simply a consequence of the evil volition of men under the prompting of Lucifer, the Antichrist.

The blood of Jesus wipes away sin.
I understand that your position might be influenced from the bastardization of the blood of Jesus by the present day church, but your position is very far from the truth.
The blood of Jesus is an integral and essential part of the gospel, and as a matter of fact, this is the ONLY thing Christ wants the church to do in remembrance of Him by drinking the wine as done in the last supper and repeated as a holy communion in churches all over the world.
To understand the import of this blood, one needs to understand the primordial process through which sins were forgiven as ordained in the laws of the prophets. as a matter of fact, there was NO remission of sins as written in the laws of moses. offenders were usually stoned to death or excommunicated. This was the state of things before the coming of Jesus.
how then does one explain the confidence of jews like peter and paul who were conversant with the laws of moses, that their sins were forgiven? these were people who had believed all their lives that the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death. . .only now to turn around and not only to proclaim forgiveness but the right to live till eternity.
The blood of Jesus is the MOST crucial part of the message of Jesus. In that blood is the right to overcome sin and attain pardon.
Except for the death and resurrection of Jesus including His immaculate birth the gospel of Jesus holds no uniqueness in the context of previous prophets.

You have not yet explained why a physical blood will wash away sins or bring spiritual redemption. Is the blood of Jesus not physical? To expect forgiveness from physical objects or anything that has form is idolatory and their can be no exception. What is it in the blood of Jesus that gives it this divine ability to wash away and forgive sins? Jesus is the word of God in flesh and blood. When Jesus talks about his blood and flesh, they are a symbolic representation of the living word of God that is Jesus. To interpret reference to flesh and blood literally will be equivalent to saying that Jesus is offering his physical flesh and blood. That will tantamount to cannibalism and even you will be aghast to canibalism even if it is the flesh and blood of Jesus that is offered. The sharing of bread and wine is a strong reminder to us of the seriousness of the truth that Jesus brought, a truth so serious that Jesus was willing to bring this Truth to us at the risk of his death. It tells us that Jesus was absolutely certain that he is the son of God and is absolutely convinced of his mission. That is why he did not shun physical death. Just an analogy, you are ordered at gun point to kill your friend or else you will be killed yourself. If you are certain that the murder of your friend is evil, you will refuse to kill your friend and dam the consequence of physical death. You faced death because of your conviction that killing your friend is evil. In similar vein Jesus faced death as a stamp of his convictions. Remember that the major charge against him is that he claims to be a son of God. The sharing of bread and wine is a luminous ceremony that happens in all genuine temples of God in heavenly spheres. Jesus brought such a ceremony to his disciples and all men. But again it is not the purpose of this reply to explain  these mysteries.

As far as your above analogy is concerned, the man who went into the fire took a rist out of love. but your analogy is porous for several reasons.
# Jesus knows the beginning from the end. As such could not have gone into the fire without knowing the outcome. So if Jesus went into the fire and died in the fire, then He knew of it and as such approved of it.
# The crucifixion of Jesus was ordained from the foundation of the world.

I have already given explanation on prophecies. That Jesus knew that he will die is not an evidence that he approved of it or that it is the will of God. There are many things that God knew but such are not his will. God knew of the activities of Lucifer and his followers. Are the evil activities of Lucifer and his followers the will of God?

1. while I agree that Jesus brought light into our darkness, your understanding and definition of that light does NOT capture the light Jesus represented.
The light He brought was within the acknowledgement and worship of God, to renew hope and let us know that we have a sonship right to live at eternity if only we believe.
believing has to do with believing Jesus as the son of God, His divinity and death. why should anyone believe his words and not believe his death or resurrection?
Jesus came to save the world. .  .from what? from sin. How can one live in denial of this principal purpose and then claim to love Jesus or have the love of Christ in him

I have already explained why I do not agree with your interpretation of the the mission, death and resurrection of Jesus. Stay blessed.

@ Noetic15 and Davidylan

Thanks, More Grace and Peace

I was reluctant to post on this thread because I perceive that posters have made up their minds and no amount argument will change any of the poster's mind. Besides, m_nawnkwo has spoken very wisely on this issue, and I completely agree with him. This post is directed to davidylan who quoted some scriptures in his last post.

@ davidylan,
Please would you be kind enough as to explain to us the meaning of the scriptures below(Mathew Chapter 7), especially the parts in red and bold.

It says "Only those that do the will of His father" will enter heaven. Why didn't the verse say, "Only those that believe that His blood was shed for them," will enter heaven.

The thing with scriptures is that almost every verse has another verse that annuls it. This is why in the light of the scriptures below, I disagree with Hebrews 9:22:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
(Hebrews 9:22)

I don't know who wrote Hebrews but I completely disagree with him. God does not need to shed blood in-order to remit sins. God is not a ritualist.

Please explain the scriptures below for me.

[Quote]
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, [size=14pt]but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.[/size]22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
[/quote]
(Mathew chapter 7)

See Mathew 7:21 made it clear that only those who do the will of God will be saved. Thus doing the will of God is the requirement for salvation and forgiveness of sins. But Hebrew 9:22 says that shading of blood(murder) is the prerequisite. The individual is left to choose which scripture to accept as the Truth. I have chosen to accept Mathew 7:21. Whatever choice you make it yours.

Thanks.

davidylan:

I dont understand why those who declare themselves to be doing good need to force themselves into the biblical heaven culled from the same bible they regard as irrelevant.

You are always talkin out of point, what does this have to do with me portraying the bible in a negative light??

I have no use for your biblical heaven, I however fully understand what deepsight and m_nwankwo are saying that the meanings of what Jesus or the original writers of the bible were saying might be deeper than what you take it to be after all the poor blokes words still continue to be used to sanction things I can't imagine him having a part in.

As to your quotes, there is none that directly corroborates your initial statement or which couldn't be interpreted differently which is why I asked if you actually understood the semantics behind the initial writing because all those words are written at different times in different contexts.

justcool:

@ davidylan,
Please would you be kind enough as to explain to us the meaning of the scriptures below(Mathew Chapter 7), especially the parts in red and bold.

It says "Only those that do the will of His father" will enter heaven. Why didn't the verse say, "Only those that believe that His blood was shed for them," will enter heaven.

this verse is self-explanatory to those who are genuinely interested in the gospel of salvation and not those who are merely seeking holes. Now did you ask yourself the very simple question posed by Matthew 7:21 - WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN?

Well that same Jesus explains it QUITE LUCIDLY John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

justcool:

The thing with scriptures is that almost every verse has another verse that annuls it. This is why in the light of the scriptures below, I disagree with Hebrews 9:22:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
(Hebrews 9:22)

I don't know who wrote Hebrews but I completely disagree with him. God does not need to shed blood in-order to remit sins. God is not a ritualist.

What is most laughable to me here is the sheer audacity of complete nobodies who stand up to declare that they "disagree" with a gospel that has withstood 2000 yrs of constant repudiation and yet remains a shinning beacon of God's love, hope and undying mercy in the hearts of those who love and cherish His words.

Now this fellow claims he "disagrees" with the writer of Hebrews because, IN HIS OWN ARROGANT, UNFOUNDED AND BASELESS OPINION, God does not need to shed blood in order to remit sins. Who is Justcool by the way? When did he become a mouthpiece to tell us exactly what God should and should not do?

Is he aware that the shedding of animal sacrifice had LONG BEEN the jewish tradition of cleansing sin? Is he aware that the shedding of Christ's blood was a symbolic one-time sacrifice to replace the yearly sacrifice of bulls and goats for sin?

justcool:

Please explain the scriptures below for me.
(Mathew chapter 7)

Thanks.

I already did. The problem is not Matthew 7 but your own ignorance and disbelief.

justcool:

Please explain the scriptures below for me.
(Mathew chapter 7)

See Mathew 7:21 made it clear that only those who do the will of God will be saved. Thus doing the will of God is the requirement for salvation and forgiveness of sins. But Hebrew 9:22 says that shading of blood(murder) is the prerequisite. The individual is left to choose which scripture to accept as the Truth. I have chosen to accept Mathew 7:21. Whatever choice you make it yours.

Thanks.

you are thoroughly, hopelessly and DELIBERATELY confused here. There is no contradiction between Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 9:22. The only problem is that you WANT TO FORCEFULLY impose your own selfish will on the bible. Matthew 7:21 is explicit that those who do the will of God will be saved . . . the shedding of Christ's blood to save us from sin IS THE CARDINAL POINT of God's will! God's will for us is that we believe in Him who He has sent, His sacrifice on the cross for our sins . . . repentance unto salvation. Hebrews 9:22 merely confirms this by telling us what we already knew from the gospels . . . without the shedding of Christ's blood, there is no cleansing from sin.

duduspace:

You are always talkin out of point, what does this have to do with me portraying the bible in a negative light??

perhaps the problem is not me talking out of point but you being confused as to exactly what it is you want to say.

duduspace:

I have no use for your biblical heaven, I however fully understand what deepsight and m_nwankwo are saying that the meanings of what Jesus or the original writers of the bible were saying might be deeper than what you take it to be after all the poor blokes words still continue to be used to sanction things I can't imagine him having a part in.

and this is based on what? your own worthless opinion that is not backed up by anything?

duduspace:

As to your quotes, there is none that directly corroborates your initial statement or which couldn't be interpreted differently which is why I asked if you actually understood the semantics behind the initial writing because all those words are written at different times in different contexts.

That's because you have a mind that is already dead-set against seeing the truth of the gospel.

Do YOU understand the semantics behind the gospels? Or are you simply super-imposing your own ideas on it?

In the bible there is a clear distinction made between two covenants - the old and the new.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

The author of Hebrews makes it quite clear . . . the use of blood as the binding force for the old covenant was already well established. It was not a new concept that the author of Hebrews dreamt up in his sleep.

When it comes to the NEW COVENANT . . . things becamse different. Every year the jews had to go up to the temple to slaughter bulls and cows to renew the old testament and cleanse themselves from sin. Rather than continue to burden us with this rituals which were unable to save completely, Christ came to shed His own blood AS A BINDING FORCE FOR A NEW TESTAMENT (whosoever believes shall be saved).

Again this is NOT a silly prank that the author of Hebrews dreamt up, he takes very careful patience to build up his case right from Hebrews chapter 4 (which lazy, ignorant people never bother to read before arrogantly declaring their disagreement with Heb 9:22).

@davidylan
Thanks so much for your reply but I completely disagree with you.
In the scripture you quoted:
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." I do not see where it says that one must believe in the murder of Jesus to be saved. To believe in Jesus entails to live according to His teachings, and Jesus taught nothing but the will of God. So to believe in Jesus is to live His teaching, thus to do the will of God.
Anybody who does the will of God will attain salvation, and will in the end come to the recognition of Jesus. It doesn't matter wheather that person while on earth, knows that about Jesus. Thus somebody can read the bible or history and know about Jesus, but as long as that person does not live in the will of God, or as long as that person does not have genuine love in his hearth, that person has not come to the recognition of Jesus.
Genuine love only comes from Jesus; one who posses genuine love is already on his way to the recognition of Jesus, such a person is on his way to heaven, whether he consciously know about Jesus while he was on earth or not.

davidylan:

What is most laughable to me here is the sheer audacity of complete nobodies who stand up to declare that they "disagree" with a gospel that has withstood 2000 yrs of constant repudiation and yet remains a shinning beacon of God's love, hope and undying mercy in the hearts of those who love and cherish His words.

I agree that I am a nobody, and in no way do I seek to elevate myself, I am only being honest. I don't agree with that verse in Hebrews. Everybody is entitled to his own beliefs. Even Jesus who is the son of God, never forced people to accept his teachings. One who does not agree with anything, should be honest enough to declare that he does not agree with it. This is not being arrogant. Accepting what does not make sense to me will not lead me anywhere; that will only make a hypocrite. Blind faith is no faith.

davidylan:


Is he aware that the shedding of animal sacrifice had LONG BEEN the jewish tradition of cleansing sin? Is he aware that the shedding of Christ's blood was a symbolic one-time sacrifice to replace the yearly sacrifice of bulls and goats for sin?

Yes animal sacrifice is Jewish tradition, but God is not obliged to follow Jewish tradition. It is not only the Jews, Babylonians, ancient Egyptians, and ritualistic Africans including the ancient Igbos did animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice in the view that it washes away sins or that it brings atonement is wrong irrespective of who did it. this is nothing but ritualism. Besides Jesus was not an animal!

Thanks

justcool:

@davidylan
Thanks so much for your reply but I completely disagree with you.
In the scripture you quoted:
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." I do not see where it says that one must believe in the murder of Jesus to be saved. To believe in Jesus entails to live according to his teachings, and Jesus taught nothing but the will of God. So to believe in Jesus is to live his teaching, thus to do the will of God.

This is frankly absurd. Did Jesus not teach about His own death and the significance?

What are the teachings of Christ?

justcool:

Anybody who does the will of God will attain salvation, and will in the end come to the recognition of the spirit of Jesus. It doesn't matter wheather that person while on earth, knows that about Jesus.

John 3.

justcool:

Thus somebody can read the bible or history and know about Jesus, but as long as that person does not live in the will of God, or as long as that person does not have genuine love in his hearth, that person has not come to the recognition of Jesus.

You seem to be making up your own doctrine as you go.

justcool:

Genuine love only comes from Jesus; one who posses genuine love is already on his way to the recognition of Jesus, such a person is on his way to heaven, whether he consciously know about Jesus while he was on earth.

More mindless delusion.

justcool:

I agree that I am a nobody, and in no way do I seek to elevate myself, I am only being honest. I don't agree with that verse in Hebrews. Everybody is entitled to his own beliefs. Even Jesus who is the son of God, never forced people to accept his teachings. One who does not agree with anything, should be honest enough to declare that he does not agree with it. This is not being arrogant. Accepting what does not make sense to me will not lead me anyway; that will only make a hypocrite. Blind faith is no faith.

But He was pretty clear that without salvation you are condemned already.

justcool:

Yes animal sacrifice is Jewish tradition, but God is not obliged to follow Jewish tradition. It is not only the Jews, Babylonians, ancient Egyptians, and ritualistic Africans including the ancient Gobs did animal sacrifice. Animal sacrifice in the view that it washes away sins or that it brings atonement is wrong irrespective of who did it. this is nothing but ritualism. Besides Jesus was not an animal!

Thanks

He gave them that tradition dude. I'm sick of the ridiculous heresies and the forced twisting of scripture to conform to a Christless belief that still hopes to enter heaven.

I repeat . . . if you will not believe the bible, you can create your own heaven and go there. No one is stopping you.

@davidylan
be careful of reading your own beleifs in the bible. Mathew7 21 is contradictory to Hebrews 9: 18. denying this only makes you apear like you are a religiouse fanatic.

Mathew 7;21 made it clear that only those who do the will of God will enter his kingdom. Hebrews says that there has to be shading of blood before remition of sins. These two verses are very different and everybody know that Mathew 7:21 does not mean shading blood when it says the will of God. How can you say that by saying "doing the will of God'  Mathew means shadding blood? that is an absurd conclution.

Poeple still do animal sercrifice today. Cult people do it, traditional africans do it. That does not mean that it is the will od God. Cult members secrifice thier sons, so this is the will of God? Animal sacrifice did not start with the jews, all ancient people did it.

justcool:

@davidylan
Thanks so much for your reply but I completely disagree with you.
In the scripture you quoted:
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." I do not see where it says that one must believe in the murder of Jesus to be saved. To believe in Jesus entails to live according to His teachings, and Jesus taught nothing but the will of God. So to believe in Jesus is to live His teaching, thus to do the will of God.
Anybody who does the will of God will attain salvation, and will in the end come to the recognition of Jesus. It doesn't matter wheather that person while on earth, knows that about Jesus. Thus somebody can read the bible or history and know about Jesus, but as long as that person does not live in the will of God, or as long as that person does not have genuine love in his hearth, that person has not come to the recognition of Jesus.
Genuine love only comes from Jesus; one who posses genuine love is already on his way to the recognition of Jesus, such a person is on his way to heaven, whether he consciously know about Jesus while he was on earth or not.
Thanks

I agree with just col. knowing that there was man called Jesus, or even calling him father, lord, etc does not mean that you are child of God. It does not mean that you will go to heaven. It does not mean that you a closer to Jesus than others. Only those that do the will of God will enter heaven.

The verse is clear. it not all those that scream Jesus, or all those that preach Jesus, or all those that perform miracles in his name. Those are not the important thing. The important thing is to do the will of God. Which is to repent and sin no more because sin cannot enter heaven even if you know every thing written about Jesus, if you are sinful you cannot enter heaven.

@justcool
What is your religiouse orientation?

cocoman4u:

@justcool
What is your religiouse orientation?

@cocoman4u
I do not have a religion. Read my previous posts in previous threads and you will see my stance on issues concerning God; I do not want to deviate from the topic of this thread. You are welcome to open a thread and ask me anything you want to know about me.

@davidylan
Once again thanks. Although I don't agree with you, there is no need going round and round in a circle of quoting scriptures. I believe your mind is made up on this issue, and I wish you well on your path.

With this I dismiss myself from this thread. I think I've caused enough troubles already

noetic15:

@ KunleOshob
Thank u for your response. I would however like to know what the "TRUTH" of Jesus gospel was. what was the truth about? was it the same message primordial prophets have preached? why would Jesus have to come and deliver the message Himself? why did he not just send a prophet?

I beleive the answer to the highlighted question above was answered by the master himself in the passage below:

Mark 12:1-12:
1 Then Jesus began teaching them with stories: “A man planted a vineyard. He built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country. 2 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent one of his servants to collect his share of the crop. 3 But the farmers grabbed the servant, beat him up, and sent him back empty-handed. 4 The owner then sent another servant, but they insulted him and beat him over the head. 5 The next servant he sent was killed. Others he sent were either beaten or killed, 6[b] until there was only one left—his son whom he loved dearly. The owner finally sent him, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’
   7 “But the tenant farmers said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 8 So they grabbed him and murdered him and threw his body out of the vineyard.[/b]


As per the truth of the Gospel Jesus preached, i would suggest you go back and study his teachings in the Gospels all over again with an open mind. I believe the truth would be revealed to you if you truly seek it.

What is this talk about if good unbelievers will go to heaven? The TRUTH is that christians dont REALLY believe that they will go to heaven when they die and I mean it. . . . .I have been around christians in a life and death situation and their reaction when faced with death says they do not believe in their mythical heaven at all. . . .My mum is a fundamentalist end of day enthusiast who believe that jesus will come flying in the sky tommorow and take her to the mythical heaven. . .I remember when we were flying from lagos to abuja on my last visit to naija and the plane suddenly began to shake in the air. . .the very scary look on her face says she is just fooling her self about all her end of days talk . . .she was praying and calling on god to help us and take charge of the plane and not to allow it crash. . . .instead of feeling happy that she was going to leave this sinful and corrupt earth which she claims she so much despises and loves to trash all the time as a place of endless evil and no good and go to be with he lovely heavenly makes in the magical heaven that is without evil, pain and suffering. . . .instead she was praying to god to help her and spare her life so that she can continue to live the the world she is always complaing is full of evil of no good. . . . .

Why is it that christians are always talking about heaven, how it is lovely and how they will love to go there but you never hear them say things like" ohh god I am about to receive eternal life please accept me as I come to join you in heaven" when they come face to face with death? You never hear them say "ohh jesus thank you for taking my life and recieve me as I come to join you in heaven" when they are faced with a life or death situation, instead you hear them screaming and shouting for their god to come and save their lives and allow them to continue to live on earth. . . . I once told our heaven enthusaist(OLADEGBUU) that he will die and go to heaven and he began shouting that he shall not die but live to deaclear the glory of his god . . . .The truth is that no matter how much the lie to themselves and pretend all the time they VERY much know that this life is all that they have and the rest is just a baseless belief that has no basis in reality. . . . . . . .

davidylan:

perhaps the problem is not me talking out of point but you being confused as to exactly what it is you want to say.

Point of correction, you are not only talking out of point, you are also uttering absolute rubbish.

davidylan:

That's because you have a mind that is already dead-set against seeing the truth of the gospel.
Do YOU understand the semantics behind the gospels? Or are you simply super-imposing your own ideas on it?

The truth to be found in it I already have i.e. love of your fellow man for the general well being of the human race, maybe that is what you should be looking for rather than a magic carpet ride to sugarcandy mountain.

mazaje:

What is this talk about if good unbelievers will go to heaven? The TRUTH is that christians dont REALLY believe that they will go to heaven when they die and I mean it. . . . .I have been around christians in a life and death situation and their reaction when faced with death says they do not believe in their mythical heaven at all. . . .My mum is a fundamentalist end of day enthusiast who believe that jesus will come flying in the sky tommorow and take her to the mythical heaven. . .I remember when we were flying from lagos to abuja on my last visit to naija and the plane suddenly began to shake in the air. . .the very scary look on her face says she is just fooling her self about all her end of days talk . . .she was praying and calling on god to help us and take charge of the plane and not to allow it crash. . . .instead of feeling happy that she was going to leave this sinful and corrupt earth which she claims she so much despises and loves to trash all the time as a place of endless evil and no good and go to be with he lovely heavenly makes in the magical heaven that is without evil, pain and suffering. . . .instead she was praying to god to help her and spare her life so that she can continue to live the the world she is always complaing is full of evil of no good. . . . .

Why is it that christians are always talking about heaven, how it is lovely and how they will love to go there but you never hear them say things like" ohh god I am about to receive eternal life please accept me as I come to join you in heaven" when they come face to face with death? You never hear them say "ohh jesus thank you for taking my life and recieve me as I come to join you in heaven" when they are faced with a life or death situation, instead you hear them screaming and shouting for their god to come and save their lives and allow them to continue to live on earth. . . . I once told our heaven enthusaist(OLADEGBUU) that he will die and go to heaven and he began shouting that he shall not die but live to deaclear the glory of his god . . . .The truth is that no matter how much the lie to themselves and pretend all the time they VERY much know that this life is all that they have and the rest is just a baseless belief that has no basis in reality. . . . . . . .

This post says it all, the fact that those that claim they believe in heaven always cry to their god to let them live here on earth when they come face to face with death says they really do not believe in what they are saying.

KunleOshob:

I beleive the answer to the highlighted question above was answered by the master himself in the passage below:

Mark 12:1-12:
1 Then Jesus began teaching them with stories: “A man planted a vineyard. He built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country. 2 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent one of his servants to collect his share of the crop. 3 But the farmers grabbed the servant, beat him up, and sent him back empty-handed. 4 The owner then sent another servant, but they insulted him and beat him over the head. 5 The next servant he sent was killed. Others he sent were either beaten or killed, 6[b] until there was only one left—his son whom he loved dearly. The owner finally sent him, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’
   7 “But the tenant farmers said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 8 So they grabbed him and murdered him and threw his body out of the vineyard.[/b]


As per the truth of the Gospel Jesus preached, i would suggest you go back and study his teachings in the Gospels all over again with an open mind. I believe the truth would be revealed to you if you truly seek it.

how so convenient. u simply refused to answer any of my questions. . . . .how helpful is that?