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A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD - Religion (5) - Nairaland

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Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 7:01pm On Oct 15, 2016
raphieMontella:
I dont expect you to believe tho.
once again...sorry guys for interferring o..
F U ORIONIS
technical report on the star

Please read this.

Please.

By the way, your interference is welcome.

As far as it is constructive smiley LOL.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 7:24pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:


For stars to have formed after the Big Bang, gases would need to clump together.
Yes this happens by gravitational collapse. There is a critical mass/temperature when a cloud of glass will collapse due to the group gravity. Read about Jeans mass

Have gases ever been observed to clump together?

What do you think happens to gasses under the influence of Van Der Waals bond?

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Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 7:47pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah:
What do you think happens to gasses under the influence of Van Der Waals bond?

What is Van Der Waals bond?

If you meant Van Der Waals force, I am pleased, then, to inform you that Van Der Waals force exists between molecules of the same substance. Thus, it cannot exist between hydrogen and helium. Also, gas pushes apart; it does not clump together.

Fun fact: All gas in outer space has a density so rarified that it is far less than the emptiest atmospheric vacuum pressure bottle in any laboratory in the world!

With these in mind, can you give me examples of gases that clump together?
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 8:47pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:
AgentOfAllah,

You have again shown that you don't even have a good knowledge of stellar evolution. Have you heard of the "helium mass 4 gap"?

There is no way heavy elements could have formed, going by the stellar evolution.

Read more.
I have included a graph of the binding energies of the first few elements below. I assume the "Helium mass 4 gap" you refer to is the dip after He4 where we have endothermic Li, Be, and B before finally, C and N continue the exothermic trend. This is only a gap if nuclearsynthesis necessitates the forming of Li7 and Be9. It turns out that this is not necessary. There is an extremely unstable isotope of Beryllium, Be8, which can form when 2 highly thermalised alpha particles (He4) collide. The reaction of this Be8 with He4 has about the same resonant energy as an excited state of the very stable C12. This allows for great probability of C12 forming from the interaction, which in turn, can produce an abundance of C-12 as we find.

So He4 + He4 -> Be8 + He4 -> C12

Look up Hoyle's Resonance and the Triple-alpha process


Average binding energy per nucleon of elements

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Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 8:58pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah,

The nuclear gaps at mass 5 and 8 make it impossible for hydrogen or helium to change itself into any of the heavier elements. This is an extremely important point, and is called the "helium mass 4 gap" (that is, there is a gap immediately after helium 4). Therefore exploding stars could not produce the heavier elements. (Some scientists speculate that a little might be produced, but even that would not be enough to supply all the heavier elements now in our universe.) Among nuclides that can actually be formed, gaps exists at mass 5 and 8.Neither hydrogen nor helium can jump the gap at mass 5. This first gap is caused by the fact that neither a proton nor a neutron can be attached to a helium nucleus of mass 4. Because of this gap, the only element that hydrogen can normally change into is helium. Even if it spanned this gap, it would be stopped again at mass 8.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 9:00pm On Oct 15, 2016
Continue, AgentOfAllah,

Hydrogen bomb explosions produce deuterum (hydrogen 2), which, in turn, forms helium 4. In theory, the hydrogen bomb chain reaction of nuclear changes could continue changing into ever heavier elements until it reached uranium;—but the process is stopped at the gap at mass 5. If it were not for that gap, our sun would be radiating uranium toward us!

"In the sequence of atomic weight numbers 5 and 8 are vacant. That is, there is no stable atom of mass 5 or mass 8 . . The question then is: How can the build-up of elements by neutron capture get by these
gaps? The process could not go beyond helium 4 and even if it spanned this gap it would be stopped again at mass 8. This basic objection to Gamow’s theory is a great disappointment in view of the promise and philosophical attractiveness of the idea."—*William A. Fowler, California Institute of Technology, quoted in Creation Science, p. 90.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 9:03pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah,

Clarification: If you will look at any standard table of the elements, you will find that the atomic weight of hydrogen is 1.008. (Deuterum is a form of hydrogen with a weight of 2.016.) Next comes helium (4.003), followed by lithium (6.939), beryllium (9.012), boron (10.811), etc. Gaps in atomic weight exist at mass 5 and 8.

But cannot hydrogen explosions cross those gaps? No. Nuclear fission (a nuclear bomb or reactor) splits (unevenly halves) uranium into barium and technetium. Nuclear fusion (a hydrogen bomb) combines (doubles) hydrogen into deuterum (helium 2), which then doubles into helium 4—and stops there. So a hydrogen explosion (even in a star) does not go across the mass 5 gap.

How then could you say minerals were formed in a star?
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 9:18pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:


What is Van Der Waals bond?
It's a type of chemical bond: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/waal.html#c1

If you meant Van Der Waals force
This is the force that allows the bond to occur.

I am pleased, then, to inform you that Van Der Waals force exists between molecules of the same substance. Thus, it cannot exist between hydrogen and helium.
My remark about Van Der Waals bond was a specific response to your question about whether gases have ever been observed to clump together. I didn't mention hydrogen or helium.

Also, gas pushes apart; it does not clump together.
Yes they tend to, but under the right temperature/pressure, they can experience gravitational collapse. I play with liquid Helium and Nitrogen almost on a daily basis in my lab.
I told you before! Look up Jean's mass

Fun fact: All gas in outer space has a density so rarified that it is far less than the emptiest atmospheric vacuum pressure bottle in any laboratory in the world!
Yes, I used this argument to debunk your claim that space is...what was the term you used?..."Very very clumpy". How can space be "very very clumpy" and at the same time, have have a vacuum pressure far less than any thing in a lab? I'm not sure you've ever seen a vacuum chamber in a lab before. I work with cryogenics, so I play with one almost everyday, and there is no way you can describe it as clumpy, let alone space! It's funny how you like to eat your cake and have it. Any way, let me put this statement in perspective for you, since you're struggling to grapple with the idea.

Yes, space is on average, uniform, however, there are very few regions that are extremely dense in gaseous content called interstellar medium (as in the real image below). These regions can have densities as high as 106 molecules/cm3. It is in such regions where gasses can easily experience gravitational collapse as predicted by Jean's equations.
[img]http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/616716main_hubble-eaglenebula-226.jpg[/img]
Pillars of creation Interstellar clouds taken by hubble space telescope

With these in mind, can you give me examples of gases that clump together?
What do you think interstellar medium is?

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Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by raphieMontella: 9:25pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:


Please read this.

Please.

By the way, your interference is welcome.

As far as it is constructive smiley LOL.
ive glanced through..
Would answer and notify you
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 9:30pm On Oct 15, 2016
It wouldn't be bad to admit that you haven't seen gases clump together, you know.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 9:33pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:
AgentOfAllah,

Clarification: If you will look at any standard table of the elements, you will find that the atomic weight of hydrogen is 1.008. (Deuterum is a form of hydrogen with a weight of 2.016.) Next comes helium (4.003), followed by lithium (6.939), beryllium (9.012), boron (10.811), etc. Gaps in atomic weight exist at mass 5 and 8.

But cannot hydrogen explosions cross those gaps? No. Nuclear fission (a nuclear bomb or reactor) splits (unevenly halves) uranium into barium and technetium. Nuclear fusion (a hydrogen bomb) combines (doubles) hydrogen into deuterum (helium 2), which then doubles into helium 4—and stops there. So a hydrogen explosion (even in a star) does not go across the mass 5 gap.

How then could you say minerals were formed in a star?

I've already addressed this in my previous response. You don't need a stable element with mass of 8, all you need is a fast enough reaction between He4 and the unstable Be8 with a mass of 8 to form C12. The existence of such a resonant state has been demonstrated in a lab before; read about Hoyle's Resonance in my last but one post. Either you prove that such a transition is not possible (and the weight of evidence is against you) or you stop repeating the same argument.

1 Like

Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 9:46pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah:


I've already addressed this in my response. You don't need a stable element with mass of 8, all you need is a fast enough reaction between He4 and the unstable Be8 with a mass of 8 to form C12. This existence of such a resonant state has been demonstrated in a lab before read about Hoyle's Resonance in my last but one post. Either you should that such a transition is not possible (and the weight of evidence is against you) or you stop repeating the same argument.

Excerpt from the article.
The researchers found the state to have an unusual bent structure, a finding that should identify the forces at work in carbon production.

That is not watertight submission. This article is still speculating about carbon production. It doesn't account for all the heavy elements we have in the universe today, does it?
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 9:46pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:
It wouldn't be bad to admit that you haven't seen gases clump together, you know.
I hope this is just you trying to be funny. Any way, I give you two words: Dry Ice!
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 9:55pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah:
I hope this is just you trying to be funny. Any way, I give you two words: Dry Ice!

We are talking clumpy gases! Dry ice is solid CO2!

Population III stars were gaseous, and comprised mainly hydrogen and helium(with traces of lithium and beryllium, supposedly!)

That was before any CO2 existed. How did hydrogen or helium clump together to form stars?
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 10:01pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:


Excerpt from the article.

That is not watertight submission. This article is still speculating about carbon production. It doesn't account for all the heavy elements we have in the universe today, does it?
The heaviest element that can be formed in stellar-nucleosynthesis is iron (Fe). If you wish to know why, refer to the graph of Binding energy vs atomic number graph I shared before. If you don't know how to interpret it, ask and I will explain. Other heavier elements must have been formed in supernovae.

The graph below shows the abundance of certain elements in the universe. You will readily observe that after Fe, things just took a downward trend. This is because of the difficulty in synthesising endothermic elements. The heavy elements are NOT abundant at all!
You will also notice your so-called Helium gap in this graph, where there is a severe dip in the abundance of Li, Be and B; and then a sudden jump with C. The science is empirical!

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Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 10:29pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:


We are talking clumpy gases! Dry ice is solid CO2!

Population III stars were gaseous, and comprised mainly hydrogen and helium(with traces of lithium and beryllium, supposedly!)

That was before any CO2 existed. How did hydrogen or helium clump together to form stars?
I am not sure you know the meaning of clump. I gave the specific example of dry ice because you erroneously claimed I've never seen clumped gas. Anyway, that example still suffices as a valid answer for Hydrogen and Helium, unless you wish to argue that hydrogen and helium have their separate laws of physics. I keep repeating that the right temperature/pressure can cause gases to clump, but you just keep pretending I haven't addressed this non-issue. Check youtube videos of liquid Nitrogen clumping under extremely low pressure. Gases are only gases because they are hot enough (i.e. they have high kinetic energies) to exert repelling pressure. If you cool them down, or reduce their pressure, they start behaving exactly as solids/liquids. Have you read on Jeans Mass? I don't think I want to waste my time on this topic anymore. Feel free to believe gasses cannot clump!

1 Like

Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 10:38pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah,

I never said gases cannot solidify. Protostars were not solids, anyway.

I never said gases cannot be liquified. Of course, protostars were not liquids.

How could hydrogen and helium in space not disperse, but instead come together to form clumps?
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 10:54pm On Oct 15, 2016
DoctorAlien:
AgentOfAllah,

I never said gases cannot solidify. Protostars were not solids, anyway.

I never said gases cannot be liquified. Of course, protostars were not liquids.

How could hydrogen and helium in space not disperse, but instead came together to form clumps?

a) Localised clumps due to quantum fluctuations
b) Areas mentioned in (a) cooled down to certain critical temperature
c) Collapsed under group gravity in accordance with Jeans calculations (If you read on Jeans mass, treated specifically for gas clouds, and you understand the mathematics, it should clear your doubt about the clumpability of gases).
d) Stars are born.

Lets move on please, this topic is beyond laboured, as am I. I don't think any serious physicist doubts that gases can collapse due to group gravity.

1 Like

Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 11:01pm On Oct 15, 2016
AgentOfAllah:


a) Localised clumps due to quantum fluctuations
b) Areas mentioned in (a) cooled down to certain critical temperature
c) Collapsed under group gravity in accordance with Jeans calculations (If you read on Jeans mass, treated specifically for gas clouds, and you understand the mathematics, it should clear your doubt about the clumpability of gases).
d) Stars are born.

Lets move on please, this topic is beyond laboured, as am I. I don't think any serious physicist doubts that gases can collapse due to group gravity.

Please point out how the jeans mass accounted for the first few molecules of hydrogen and helium that clumped together in space, instead of dispersing.

Again, what do you have to say about the meter-size barrier?
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by Antiparticle(m): 5:45pm On Oct 16, 2016
following... but I think you guys are now stuck in a rathole sha... @DoctorAlien, let me know when you want to go back to the ice cores conversation after which we'll leave science alone
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 6:54pm On Oct 16, 2016
Antiparticle:
following... but I think you guys are now stuck in a rathole sha... @DoctorAlien, let me know when you want to go back to the ice cores conversation after which we'll leave science alone

Please, please! Go ahead. This went on a little longer than I had intended. I'm eager to learn about the ice cores, myself. When I have time, I'll maybe open a new thread in the science/education section to discus the "meter-size barrier", having invested a portion of my time learning more about it.

Side rant: (If only Seun added new subsections for the fundamental sciences like Physics, Chemistry and Biology, we'll be able to have more technical discussions on some of these topics, and maybe draw in people who are only science oriented to discus recent advances in these disciplines)

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Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by Antiparticle(m): 11:59pm On Oct 18, 2016
Forgive me o. I haven't abandoned the thread. Please give me about 2-3 days... I happen to be submerged in a lot of work at the moment.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 12:08am On Oct 19, 2016
Antiparticle:
Forgive me o. I haven't abandoned the thread. Please give me about 2-3 days... I happen to be submerged in a lot of work at the moment.

Okay bro.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 5:01pm On Nov 22, 2016
Antiparticle, what's up? smiley
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 10:35pm On Dec 20, 2016
Hello Antiparticle...
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by Naturalized(m): 2:43am On Dec 21, 2016
How did this thread descend into an argument about the big bang?

Started out as fun but the last couple of pages (whilst deeply revealing and that is coming from a physical science grad student) was a bit off the rails.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by LordAdam7: 7:13pm On Feb 18, 2017
Naturalized:
How did this thread descend into an argument about the big bang?

Started out as fun but the last couple of pages (whilst deeply revealing and that is coming from a physical science grad student) was a bit off the rails.

It went off the rails because @DoctorAlien kept reiterating non-issues that had been resoundingly explained by AgentOfAllah. I can't recount how many times I almost felt like closing the thread because the back and forth were annoying.

Clearly, DoctorAlien has never being in a hi-tech lab nor does he have a degree in pure science and he is searching through creationist forums to find rebuttals to widely-accepted explanations of concepts that are too complex for his pea-sized brain to process.

Antiparticle and AgentOfAllah are incredibly patient debaters. I couldn't have gone past this statement of DoctorAlien on page 2:

"Who was there when the rock was formed to determine whether they were contaminated(and in what quantity) or not?"

No offense, but that statement is so stupid it isn't even funny. It is exactly what an unintelligent market woman would say in the face of irrefutable facts, not a self acclaimed "scientist."

To his credit he did make some valid points, but they were so corrupted by various fallacies, that even a tyro student of philosophy will scream blue murder.

Anyone who says the Bible as it is today is completely true and divinely-inspired should not be debated with on scientific topics. He or she should simply be sent to a theological school or just given funds to open a church.

I'm not trying to debase the person. We all have our different opinions. But that statement is as insulting as it is shocking. And valuable time that should be spent on more important scientific debates should not be spent on an opinion that is quite frankly in all essence a broken record.

-Lord
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by akintom(m): 9:16pm On Feb 18, 2017
LordAdam7:


It went off the rails because @DoctorAlien kept reiterating non-issues that had been resoundingly explained by AgentOfAllah. I can't recount how many times I almost felt like closing the thread because the back and forth were annoying.

Clearly, DoctorAlien has never being in a hi-tech lab nor does he have a degree in pure science and he is searching through creationist forums to find rebuttals to widely-accepted explanations of concepts that are too complex for his pea-sized brain to process.

Antiparticle and AgentOfAllah are incredibly patient debaters. I couldn't have gone past this statement of DoctorAlien on page 2:

"Who was there when the rock was formed to determine whether they were contaminated(and in what quantity) or not?"

No offense, but that statement is so stupid it isn't even funny. It is exactly what an unintelligent market woman would say in the face of irrefutable facts, not a self acclaimed "scientist."

To his credit he did make some valid points, but they were so corrupted by various fallacies, that even a tyro student of philosophy will scream blue murder.

Anyone who says the Bible as it is today is completely true and divinely-inspired should not be debated with on scientific topics. He or she should simply be sent to a theological school or just given funds to open a church.

I'm not trying to debase the person. We all have our different opinions. But that statement is as insulting as it is shocking. And valuable time that should be spent on more important scientific debates should not be spent on an opinion that is quite frankly in all essence a broken record.

-Lord
excellent submission.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by Antiparticle(m): 4:51am On Aug 09, 2017
This is my first time logging into NL with this account since we last debated! Lol.
Busy times. Hope you are good.
DoctorAlien:
Hello Antiparticle...
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by DoctorAlien(m): 3:22pm On Aug 24, 2017
Antiparticle:
This is my first time logging into NL with this account since we last debated! Lol.
Busy times. Hope you are good.

I'm good. I trust you're doing well too.
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by akindlesfarm: 3:51pm On Dec 11, 2017
pls what really is antimatter, I heard that a gram of it can destroy a large country
Re: A Discussion between Antiparticle and DoctorAlien on GOD by AgentOfAllah: 2:59pm On Dec 14, 2017
akindlesfarm:
pls what really is antimatter, I heard that a gram of it can destroy a large country

Not if that country is made of antimatter! An antimatter is simply any composite or elementary particle having exactly the same mass as its matter equivalent, but different charge. For example, an electron is matter with negative electric charge, and its antimatter equivalent is an antielectron (usually called a positron), with exactly the same mass and properties as an electron, except its charge is positive. Likewise, you have protons with positive (electric) charge and antiproton with negative electric charge. So you can have an antihydrogen atom, consisting of antiproton and positron. Now get this: If we were to wake up one day, only to find out that the charges of all the particles in our universe have changed, and we now live in an antiuniverse, everything will remain exactly as they are now. We wouldn't even know the difference. So for all we know, ours might be the antiuniverse.

Now, we consider a case where antimatter collides with its matter equivalent: Whenever this happens, this collision will usually give out a burst of gamma rays (high energy electromagnetic waves), and, depending on the momentum of the collision, may also create other smaller particle-antiparticle pairs. The most important rule of this collision is that energy and momentum are conserved.

Now, supposing our hypothetical country is matter, and a gram of antimatter were to collide with it, we can easily calculate the lower limit of energy it would produce (assuming zero momentum just before contact). Using Einstein's Energy-mass equivalency equation:

E2 = p2c2 +m2c4.
But since p = 0 as per the initial condition, this equation reduces to the more compact, and certainly more familiar version of itself:

E = mc2, where m = 1g of antimatter + 1g of matter = 2g or 0.002kg

E = 1.8 X 1014 J

This is merely twice the amount of energy (0.88 X 1014 J) that Fat man, the monster which the US unleashed on Nagasaki, dispensed, by comparison. To be sure, the city was devastated, and more than 30,000 individuals lost their lives, and its overall effect, including fireball, air burst, radiation and thermal burst would have easily covered a radius of 2-3 km. But in spite of all that devastation, it couldn't even wipe out a small city, and Nagasaki still stands strong today. So it is inconceivable that something twice the energy of Fat man would wipe out a whole country. But yes, it could do some wicked damage.

The main advantage of antimatter-matter collision over nuclear fusion/fission is its 100% conversion efficiency (assuming matter is freely available), which means for an insanely small size, you can get an insanely large amount of energy out.
The Plutonium rod in Fat man weighed about 6 kg, of which only 0.001g was converted to energy. 0.001g of antimatter will give out 0.002g worth of energy when it reacts with equivalent matter. Now, if you had 6 kg of antimatter, then we can start talking about destroying countries.

With that, you should be able to wipe out any country equal to or less than 54,000 sq.km, like Netherlands or Togo.

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