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Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? - Religion - Nairaland

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Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by PDBonline: 9:34am On Dec 17, 2016
Have you seen an atheist proof that indeed God does not exist?
What I see is arguing against the believe of others not for there own bold assertions.

Arguments goes like, "if you believe God exist then produce the God let's see", or "if there is God, why did he allow this to happen or why didn't he make that to happen" as if the existence of God means that man is no longer responsible for anything.

Can any atheist please pause for a moment from asking people who share other believes to give the evidence he or she is not ready to accept, stop using anecdotes like "I was like you before but I have graduated" and actually bring forward the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that has proven beyond all doubts how every possible realm of existence have been discovered and searched out or at least how just this universe of ours have been completely explored (not suggesting this is sure proof) and God was not found.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by PDBonline: 9:36am On Dec 17, 2016
Can you also show how you scientifically came to know how God MUST look like and MUST behave in all circumstances, so much so that you are convinced that if God exist, certain things should not happen or should happen.

I will be very glad to see an atheist come up with the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE for his/her stand that there is no God, NOT against other people's believes.
This is very fair since that's what you say you believe in and I have seen a lot of atheists say, "Logic!" here on Nairaland while making fallacious claims. Let's put your "No God or gods" claim to LOGICAL TEST too and let's see the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE as explained above,like you demand from others.

PLEASE NO ONE SHOULD RESORT TO INSULTING ANYONE OR REPLYING AN INSULT. LET'S FOCUS ON THE ISSUE.

Expectant.

Thanks.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by Kendzyma(m): 9:52am On Dec 17, 2016
Nigeria itself is enough evidence that he doesn't exist,of course u had claim ur own proof of his existence is because u are alive.....
Think about it,why does he require human effort to prove his existence?...

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by PDBonline: 10:02am On Dec 17, 2016
Kendzyma:
Nigeria itself is enough evidence that he doesn't exist,of course u had claim ur own proof of his existence is because u are alive.....
Think about it,why does he require human effort to prove his existence?...

It is more logical to claim that nothing comes out from nothing.

And no, God doesn't require human to prove his existence. He has done that already. His works reveal Him and He reveals Himself on a personal way to those who seek Him like a treasure that matters. He has no obligation to do so to those who do not seek Him but He can too.

Kendzyma can you explain your statement about Nigeria being a proof that God doesn't exist?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by felixomor: 10:30am On Dec 17, 2016
Kendzyma:
Nigeria itself is enough evidence that he doesn't exist,of course u had claim ur own proof of his existence is because u are alive.....
Think about it,why does he require human effort to prove his existence?...

How will you prove your existence to a bacterium?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 10:37am On Dec 17, 2016
Kendzyma:
Nigeria itself is enough evidence that he doesn't exist,of course u had claim ur own proof of his existence is because u are alive.....
Think about it,why does he require human effort to prove his existence?...

Where did God say he needed human effort to prove his existence? If you do not believe he requires human effort to prove his existence why then do you use human occurrences to disprove his existence? You are using Nigeria to prove God does not exist. Are you not committing the Regression fallacy you are pointing at?

Can you provide a better proof that God does not exist? Is Nigeria the only country in the world? Are you the only human in the world?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 10:57am On Dec 17, 2016
Nature serves as evidence for God . We also see intelligence in humans , morality , and personal observation as evidence for God .

How atheists can prove God does not exist .

KingEbukasBlog:


Example
"eiujedne" Does not exist in an English dictionary

Proof : Run a search in an English dictionary , nix - you won't find it

So I expect atheists to pen down details of their journey through out every possible dimension , outside the universe , which led to their discovery that God does not exist .

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 10:59am On Dec 17, 2016
Kendzyma:

Think about it,why does he require human effort to prove his existence?...

The existence of God is axiomatic . But the atheists came and since they came , its been endless arguments for centuries since Diagoras and his pals declared that there is no God .
Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by LiberaDeus: 11:14am On Dec 17, 2016
PDBonline:
Have you seen an atheist proof that indeed God does not exist?
What I see is arguing against the believe of others not for there own bold assertions.

Arguments goes like, "if you believe God exist then produce the God let's see", or "if there is God, why did he allow this to happen or why didn't he make that to happen" as if the existence of God means that man is no longer responsible for anything.

Can any atheist please pause for a moment from asking people who share other believes to give the evidence he or she is not ready to accept, stop using anecdotes like "I was like you before but I have graduated" and actually bring forward the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that has proven beyond all doubts how every possible realm of existence have been discovered and searched out or at least how just this universe of ours have been completely explored (not suggesting this is sure proof) and God was not found.


The universe hasn't been searched thoroughly. Science doesn't know up to 2 percent of the possible knowledge in the universe. We don't know if VOD exists or not. I personally believe that there must be other intelligent things existing within and outside the universe.

Now for you theist or Christian. You know fully well that the universe hasn't been discovered fully, you know man can't aspire to know things that are beyond him. But ironically you don't just accept that there is a god, you claim to know him, to know his name and the name of his son, you also claim to hear from him, you claim to know when and how he created the earth, you claim to know his will for your life and what turns him on and off.

You my friend are making the boldest claims ever, for such extraordinary knowledge you claim to possess, you have put a very big big burden of proof on yourself. If you have made such a claim, then you must prove it.

For me I am not interested in the claim of the existence of a god, am just interested in the claims of those who know the god personally and understand his will and are chosen by him. It's you theists that am interested in.
Please don't shift the burden of proof.

There is a big difference between me claiming that there is a sky and you claiming that you know there is a sky and you also know that in the sky, there is a blue colored mansion with a golden door, plus a beautiful blonde haired lady guarding the mansion, plus a flying horse encircling the mansion and tons of gold in that mansion.
Such claims cannot just be taken at face value, you must prove it totally because the claim is so specific.

So you theist, prove that your god Yahweh is the creator of the universe. Am waiting for your answer

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by LiberaDeus: 11:19am On Dec 17, 2016
PDBonline:
Can you also show how you scientifically came to know how God MUST look like and MUST behave in all circumstances, so much so that you are convinced that if God exist, certain things should not happen or should happen.

I will be very glad to see an atheist come up with the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE for his/her stand that there is no God, NOT against other people's believes.
This is very fair since that's what you say you believe in and I have seen a lot of atheists say, "Logic!" here on Nairaland while making fallacious claims. Let's put your "No God or gods" claim to LOGICAL TEST too and let's see the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE as explained above,like you demand from others.

PLEASE NO ONE SHOULD RESORT TO INSULTING ANYONE OR REPLYING AN INSULT. LET'S FOCUS ON THE ISSUE.

Expectant.

Thanks.

I don't know how god is or should behave. It's you who claim that you know his character and you know he is loving and all powerful and omniscient. When we see things in the universe that contradict that nature we call it out.

If I claim to be 6feet 5 inches tall and one day you see me and see that I am as short as Kevin Hart, won't it be stupid for me to ask you how you know what I must look like considering the fact that I made the claim first.

Maybe I am not in a position to answer the question since I am an agnostic and I don't believe we can know if gods exist or not, the only thing I am curious about is how you know there is a god then suddenly jump a million miles into a conclusion that God is Yahweh the father of Jesus Christ.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 11:35am On Dec 17, 2016
LiberaDeus:


I don't know how god is or should behave. It's you who claim that you know his character and you know he is loving and all powerful and omniscient. When we see things in the universe that contradict that nature we call it out.

If I claim to be 6feet 5 inches tall and one day you see me and see that I am as short as Kevin Hart, won't it be stupid for me to ask you how you know what I must look like considering the fact that I made the claim first.

Maybe I am not in a position to answer the question since I am an agnostic and I don't believe we can know if gods exist or not, the only thing I am curious about is how you know there is a god then suddenly jump a million miles into a conclusion that God is Yahweh the father of Jesus Christ.

First you say a lot of YOU DONT KNOWS in your statement then you assume that this God whom you do not know is not Yahweh. So can you tell me how you arrived at not knowing about Gods character yet you say he MUST not be Yahweh.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:39am On Dec 17, 2016
damogul:


First you say a lot of YOU DONT KNOWS in your statement then you assume that this God whom you do not know is not Yahweh. So can you tell me how you arrived at not knowing about Gods character yet you say he MUST not be Yahweh.

Yahweh sure gives the atheist a heck of a headache . Na wa oo

grin

He does not know , He does not know but when it came to Yahweh he certainly knew .

So many reasons why I don't take them seriously .

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by LiberaDeus: 11:45am On Dec 17, 2016
damogul:


First you say a lot of YOU DONT KNOWS in your statement then you assume that this God whom you do not know is not Yahweh. So can you tell me how you arrived at not knowing about Gods character yet you say he MUST not be Yahweh.

That is your responsibility. You are the Yahweh worshipper. If I claim my father is a minister of the federal republic, I shouldn't be telling you to prove to me that am not a ministers son. It would be met responsibility to show you.

I should direct the question to you follower of Yahweh. There is a god that created the universe, I don't know him but you claim to know him and know that his name is Yahweh, care to show any proof.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by LiberaDeus: 11:48am On Dec 17, 2016
KingEbukasBlog:


Yahweh sure gives the atheist a heck of a headache . Na wa oo

grin

He does not know , He does not know but when it came to Yahweh he certainly knew .

So many reasons why I don't take them seriously .

I can tell you that I don't believe any so called god be it Allah, Vishnu, ahura Mazda etc are not the creators of the universe. I can say that as long as the followers of these gods keep on churning contradictory claims about their god and also keep on defending their religion with blind faith then they aren't to be taken seriously same with you Yahweh worshippers.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by Nobody: 11:50am On Dec 17, 2016
I have been categorized as atheist because I havn't seen sufficient reasons to believe that God exists, nt because I claim GOD doesn't exist. That's all.
BTW op, define GOD and then define the word EXIST.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 11:50am On Dec 17, 2016
LiberaDeus:


That is your responsibility. You are the Yahweh worshipper. If I claim my father is a minister of the federal republic, I shouldn't be telling you to prove to me that am not a ministers son. It would be met responsibility to show you.

I should direct the question to you follower of Yahweh. There is a god that created the universe, I don't know him but you claim to know him and know that his name is Yahweh, care to show any proof.


On the contrary its not my responsibility. I HAVE COME TO KNOW WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW yet you who DO NOT KNOW SEEMS TO THINK YOU KNOW MORE THAN I DO WHEN YOU SAY YOU ARE SURE THE GOD WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW CANNOT BE YAHWEH.

So its either you are weighed down by gross confusion or you are on the precipice of mental strangulation or you have somehow seen all the gods that ever existed, interacted with them, compared their characteristics and then drew a conclusion. Which is it?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:53am On Dec 17, 2016
LiberaDeus:


I can tell you that I don't believe any so called god be it Allah, Vishnu, ahura Mazda etc are not the creators of the universe. I can say that as long as the followers of these gods keep on churning contradictory claims about their god and also keep on defending their religion with blind faith then they aren't to be taken seriously same with you Yahweh worshippers.

One God different religious concepts . How is this abstruse ? The contentious issue should be which religious concept is the true concept of God

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 11:54am On Dec 17, 2016
Blackbolt:
I have been categorized as atheist because I havn't seen sufficient reasons to believe that God exists, nt because I claim GOD doesn't exist. That's all.
BTW op, define GOD and then define the word EXIST.

How is your new account doing ? Felixomor , come and see oo
Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 11:55am On Dec 17, 2016
KingEbukasBlog:


Yahweh sure gives the atheist a heck of a headache . Na wa oo

grin

He does not know , He does not know but when it came to Yahweh he certainly knew .

So many reasons why I don't take them seriously .

My brother their confusion is out of this world. We just have to keep on enjoying the entertainment.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by PDBonline: 11:55am On Dec 17, 2016
LiberaDeus:


The universe hasn't been searched thoroughly. Science doesn't know up to 2 percent of the possible knowledge in the universe. We don't know if VOD exists or not. I personally believe that there must be other intelligent things existing within and outside the universe.

Now for you theist or Christian. You know fully well that the universe hasn't been discovered fully, you know man can't aspire to know things that are beyond him. But ironically you don't just accept that there is a god, you claim to know him, to know his name and the name of his son, you also claim to hear from him, you claim to know when and how he created the earth, you claim to know his will for your life and what turns him on and off.

You my friend are making the boldest claims ever, for such extraordinary knowledge you claim to possess, you have put a very big big burden of proof on yourself. If you have made such a claim, then you must prove it.

For me I am not interested in the claim of the existence of a god, am just interested in the claims of those who know the god personally and understand his will and are chosen by him. It's you theists that am interested in.
Please don't shift the burden of proof.

There is a big difference between me claiming that there is a sky and you claiming that you know there is a sky and you also know that in the sky, there is a blue colored mansion with a golden door, plus a beautiful blonde haired lady guarding the mansion, plus a flying horse encircling the mansion and tons of gold in that mansion.
Such claims cannot just be taken at face value, you must prove it totally because the claim is so specific.

So you theist, prove that your god Yahweh is the creator of the universe. Am waiting for your answer
LiberaDeus don't start it again. There is a clear statement about what we expect from you in this thread.
What you've just done among other things is exactly the Shift of Burden of Proof I am complaining about. It's a known informal logical FALLACY.
Then to that you are adding Hasty Generalization. Christians are in different stages of knowledge and maturity. And our Bible tells us that who ever thinks he knows anything as not known it as he ought to- meaning that knowledge, talk less knowledge of God is inexhaustible.
So anyone among us who is truly knowledgeable also knows that there is more to know. Rather than allow the lack of knowledge to led us into hasty conclusions and spiritual laziness, we have not given up, calling God all sorts like those who left our camp does.

The same ignorance that has led to broken relationships when one partner decides to stop seeking to know the other and adjust to the responsibility that the knowledge brings, that's what has led to many leaving our camp. And you can read the anger and disappointment they express towards a God they claim doesn't exist.

LiberaDeus, you have all the opportunity here to scientifically proof to a logical conclusion why you hold on to the idea that there is no God because you have suggested that this is what Christians should do while shutting your eyes and heart to all the evidence already existing around you. You even have the liberty to quote the works(research) of those senior atheists like Dawkins.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 11:57am On Dec 17, 2016
KingEbukasBlog:


How is your new account doing ? Felixomor , come and see oo

When you see Eyehategod aka deicide you know. He alone is NinjaX too and now Blackbolt. I have my way of sniffing him out
Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by Nobody: 11:59am On Dec 17, 2016
PDBonline :
As an agnostic Deist, I reject the claims of most theists. I then make a 'counter claim' that I don't know the nature of God, who or what he is, but that I believe that God is fully noninterventionist- which I also state not to be explicitly sure of.

Atheists reject all existing claims of God's existence without making the counter claim 'god does not exist'. If atheists were to make the counter claim 'god does not exist', then they'd be classified as 'gnostic atheists' and then you could request for proof of their assertion. But, almost all atheists you encounter, including the ones on Nairaland have done no such thing, and are 'agnostic atheists'. They have made no assertions of their own, rather, they reject all existing assertions which claim that there is a god, and provide their own description of the nature of such god. They reject it because they claim insufficient proof. Meaning that, if a new assertion is made today, and they find the proof sufficient, then they'll believe in God. I hope you now understand.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 12:02pm On Dec 17, 2016
AnonyNymous:
PDBonline :
As an agnostic Deist, I reject the claims of most theists. I then make a 'counter claim' that I don't know the nature of God, who or what he is, but that I believe that God is fully noninterventionist- which I also state not to be explicitly sure of.

Atheists reject all existing claims of God's existence without making the counter claim 'god does not exist'. If atheists were to make the counter claim 'god does not exist', then they'd be classified as 'gnostic atheists' and then you could request for proof of their assertion. But, almost all atheists you encounter, including the ones on Nairaland have done no such thing, and are 'agnostic atheists'. They have made no assertions of their own, rather, they reject all existing assertions which claim that there is a god, and provide their own description of the nature of such god. They reject it because they claim insufficient proof. Meaning that, if a new assertion is made today, and they find the proof sufficient, then they'll believe in God. I hope you now understand.

If someone rejects anything can he not be asked WHY? If he cannot defend his reason for rejection by offering proof then he is simply being mischievous. If anyone makes any claim he should be ready to be asked how he arrived at such a conclusion am i wrong?

Proof is self expressing and personal. Can my proof convince or be adequate for you?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 12:04pm On Dec 17, 2016
damogul:


When you see Eyehategod aka deicide you know. He alone is NinjaX too and now Blackbolt. I have my way of sniffing him out

Damn it bro ! You are good ! I thought of the same thing too . It sounded like NinjaX . He has made that comment with his NinjaX account .

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by KingEbukasBlog(m): 12:07pm On Dec 17, 2016
AnonyNymous:
PDBonline :
As an agnostic Deist, I reject the claims of most theists. I then make a 'counter claim' that I don't know the nature of God, who or what he is, but that I believe that God is fully noninterventionist- which I also state not to be explicitly sure of.
.
'Agnostic deism' has to do with God's intervention not being able to proven or known .

You can determine the nature of God as a deist through Natural Theology .
Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by Nobody: 12:08pm On Dec 17, 2016
KingEbukasBlog:

How is your new account doing ? Felixomor , come and see oo
what do you mean sir?
Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 12:08pm On Dec 17, 2016
KingEbukasBlog:


Damn it bro ! You are good ! I thought of the same thing too . It sounded like NinjaX . He has made that comment with his NinjaX account .

grin grin They are too easily predictable

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by ScepticalPyrrho: 12:09pm On Dec 17, 2016
@PDBonline.

Read below to see who is shifting the burden of proof.

@KingEbukasBlog why don't you tell dis man that we've gone past this a long time ago.

Atheists are not the claimant!!!

They lack believe because of lack of proofs! That is why they not need to proof the inexistence of God.

Why are doing this all over again. It's exhausting.

Can you provide proofs for the inexistence of Aliens?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by PDBonline: 12:12pm On Dec 17, 2016
Blackbolt:
I have been categorized as atheist because I havn't seen sufficient reasons to believe that God exists, nt because I claim GOD doesn't exist. That's all.
BTW op, define GOD and then define the word EXIST.
What reasons will be sufficient? Like seeing God physically appear to you? Like Him creating another universe and taking you there to say that, "Okay, see what new world I have created. Do you now believe?"

You don't get to see something when you are not looking at the right place, no matter how convinced you are about where you do your search.

If you honestly don't have sufficient reason and there is God, He knows you are honest. But honesty is not enough. Don't consult other humans to proof God to you, if God exist, He will hear you speak to Him, asking that He help you to understand what you haven't and let Him decide when and how to do it.

Having said that. This is a thread for those who claim that God does not exist. An opportunity to do what they ask others to do(which they never agree with, nor are they ready to). Maybe if they show the evidence for their claim, they will have just some moral right to request for such claim from those who say theirs is already available and that what is not available is a personal revelation from that God- which atheists for some reason don't consider genuine.

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by Nobody: 12:13pm On Dec 17, 2016
damogul:


If someone rejects anything can he not be asked WHY? If he cannot defend his reason for rejection by offering proof then he is simply being mischievous. If anyone makes any claim he should be ready to be asked how he arrived at such a conclusion am i wrong?
That is correct- and that is what you see them doing on here. Providing reasons why they thing the bible is illogical, therefore their rejection of Christianity. However, I am yet to see an atheist on here explicitly state "THERE IS NO GOD". If anyone does so, the burden of proof is on him.

Proof is self expressing and personal. Can my proof convince or be adequate for you?
Yes. Proof is subjective. Its also heavily influenced by personal experiences. Thats why we have different religions. Normally, proof (in science) should be objective- that can be there for anyone to see irregardless of their religion, and that's what atheists are asking for. But the problem is, religion is an art, not a science, and therefore there are many perspectives through which events can be seen. Religion is like philosophy, and your opinion/religion depends on your own personal experiences. Which is why I find arguing with the religious futile. They're grasping on to the elephant's tail, while I'm touching the elephant's body. The atheist, on the other hand, is touching one of the tusks, and asking for a picture as proof from both of us- forgetting that we are all blind.
Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by damogul: 12:13pm On Dec 17, 2016
ScepticalPyrrho:
@PDBonline.

Read below to see who is shifting the burden of proof.

@KingEbukasBlog why don't you tell dis man that we've gone past this a long time ago.

The meaning of Atheists are not the claimant.

The lack believe because of lack of proofs!

Why are doing this all over again. It's exhausting.

Oga you need a crash course in English about what a CLAIM is. ANYONE WHO SAYS GOD DOES NOT EXIST has made a claim. The next logical question would be...HOW DID YOU FIND THIS OUT? OR HOW DID YOU ARRIVE AT THIS CONCLUSION.

If an atheist lacks belief due to lack of sufficient proof this means they still need proof so why jump to the conclusion that there is no God or God does not exist when there are still myriads of proof yet to be seen? Are you confused?

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Re: Why Do Atheists Shift The Burden Of Proof? by Nobody: 12:14pm On Dec 17, 2016
KingEbukasBlog:

'Agnostic deism' has to do with God's intervention not being able to proven or known .

You can determine the nature of God as a deist through Natural Theology .
What is natural theology?

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