I have heard from many of the Atheists on this forum (though not in decisive or concrete terms).

The best postulations I have received have come from persons who are not atheists, but engage my propositions in an apparent effort to distill or debunk specific lines of reasoning. Of these, the best have been Pastor AIO and Krayola: i am in fact preparing a GCON award for these excellent men of reasoning _{(although pastor is still a very confusing person).}

Some of the others have made some attempts: never exhaustive, but at least setting forth some reasons why they find the whole idea of Deities and the Supernatural. . . . well, laughable or at most, unnecessary. These are Mazaje, Chrisbenegor and a few others.

Some attempts have been based only on snipy extracts against the more ludicrous aspects of the religious nature of man: Think Huxley.

In this thread i am interested in hearing the exhaustive views of Bawomolo and Manmustwac.

I have heard precious little from Bawomolo, i see that these days he mostly drops one-liners, but doing some research, i found that he has been very exhaustive in the past.

I discern, without hearing much from him, that Mr. Bawomolo is a very decent person with a good head on his shoulders. I also see that he does not like arrogance or pretentiousness.

Manmustwac, our dear moderator, seems a practical man who regards only practical things as being useful.

I would like to hear from you both: what are your perspectives, backgrounds, and what exactly informs your positions.

I will not be arguing anything in this, thread, i just want to hear from you both.

Bawomolo seems to seek a logical proof of God's existence, without which, he damns the idea:

bawomolo:


Thanks to the greek and egyptians, we know 1+1 = 2. what can be used to substantiate the existence of God??

In the course of this we might also wish to delve very briefly into Mr. Bawomolo's perspectives on Homosexuality. I ask this because it might be interesting to see if there are any co-relations between your perspectives on ethics and your perspectives on spirituality, (if any).

bawomolo:


there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, i repeat nothing is wrong with homosexuality

if you want to be a booty pirate or carpet muncher , go ahead.

Manmustwac entirely denies the existence of the Spiritual -

manmustwac:

When i got off the train i had to enter a bus so since i know am in the bus i know the bus dose exist. So how can u tell me that if i see God in the flesh i'd be fooling myself? Besides why didn't your God come down from Heaven to stop 9/11 u seriously think that if i saw him on live TV i would still be denying his existanceThis is the crux of the problem now. If u can't explain to me, then why should i believe? I have never seen my spirit, i have never felt my spirit so i don't believe i have a spirit. And i don't see how i can experience something that i don't believe in. I

Manmustwac, can you give us a brief chat on your statements that you have never "felt" your spirit and also -

manmustwac:

Well the obvious answer is because i don't believe there is a God. God dose not exist. He exists only in your imagination
Now your being really funny  If God came down from Heaven NOW! and i see Him in the physical flesh. Trust me i won't come up with any excuses. Seeing is believing

Let's hear from you both. Cheers.

@Deep Sight: Knowing fully well that I am not the one that you are asking these questions, I just want to say something about

Quote from: bawomolo on February 11, 2008, 04:54:57 PM

Thanks to the greek and egyptians, we know 1+1 = 2. what can be used to substantiate the existence of God??

and I will copy and paste a response that I gave to someone else on another thread some minutes ago.

One human fallacy, theologically speaking, is to think that one can reason out the nature and causes of everything, including the possibilities and/or purposes and wisdom of a divine God that yourself, or someone else, believes in. If you could do that, then you wouldn't be a human being. You would be one-kinda-god too. But even at that, there will still be a form of hierarchy and the god-that-you-are will have to defer in respect to another god or the other (if there was no such hierarchy, chaos would be the order of the day, Im sure you know that). Therefore, when there is hierarchy, someone has to be at the pinnacle of the gods. The most supreme, ensuring that things go according to THE PLAN.

Now, tell me, as a human being, can you, at once, see all the sides of a cube (not the net layout, but a solid form)? Since you cannot, would it indeed be wise/foolish for a human being to see some of a cube's sides (most probably three), and thus conclude that the cube has only three sides, and that whoever says it has six sides is definitely a liar? I do not deem such a judgment to be sound, rather it is inadmissible.

I have to say that in the case of unsure conclusions due to a perceived lack of completeness of evidence, good judgment would involve careful observation of all other possible perspectives.

Following your reasoning above, it is not apparent that you have considered all possible perspectives. However, I do not feel like arguing with you. I'm just expressing my views. Best Regards.

Over and out.

Now, tell me, as a human being, can you, at once, see all the sides of a cube (not the net layout, but a solid form)?

there are material scientists who deal with such things.   No one says man can reason out everything but to equate the unknown with the extra-terrestrial is what we atheists are against. Can God exist? yes but does the earth need God to exist (especially an all knowing jealous bipolar one)? no.

A thread about me on nairaland? I never saw that coming.   My views on homosexuality are known to everyone but i won't mind answering some questions.

Bawomolo! There you are!

Please indulge my queries. . .

Thanks!

@ Mavenbox -

One human fallacy, theologically speaking, is to think that one can reason out the nature and causes of everything, including the possibilities and/or purposes and wisdom of a divine God that yourself, or someone else, believes in. If you could do that, then you wouldn't be a human being. You would be one-kinda-god too. But even at that, there will still be a form of hierarchy and the god-that-you-are will have to defer in respect to another god or the other (if there was no such hierarchy, chaos would be the order of the day, Im sure you know that). Therefore, when there is hierarchy, someone has to be at the pinnacle of the gods. The most supreme, ensuring that things go according to THE PLAN.

Now, tell me, as a human being, can you, at once, see all the sides of a cube (not the net layout, but a solid form)? Since you cannot, would it indeed be wise/foolish for a human being to see some of a cube's sides (most probably three), and thus conclude that the cube has only three sides, and that whoever says it has six sides is definitely a liar? I do not deem such a judgment to be sound, rather it is inadmissible.

I have to say that in the case of unsure conclusions due to a perceived lack of completeness of evidence, good judgment would involve careful observation of all other possible perspectives.

Following your reasoning above, it is not apparent that you have considered all possible perspectives. However, I do not feel like arguing with you. I'm just expressing my views. Best Regards.

This is brilliant. You earn my deepest respect. I totally agree.

But what say you on this: No one can understand God: but is it not rationally possible to infer that such an entity must exist?

_{P/S: That pic is beautiful}

Deep Sight:

Bawomolo! There you are!

Please indulge my queries. . .

Thanks!

sure what would you like to know?

^^^ Ok, first off: what is your religious/ cultural background, as per family.

Then what conviced you to tow you present path (atheism)?

Why off all issues homosexuality?
What exactly is wrong with homosexuality?

@DeepSight: LOL thanks for the compliment on my pic!  

This is brilliant. You earn my deepest respect. I totally agree.

But what say you on this: No one can understand God: but is it not rationally possible to infer that such an entity must exist?

Going by my own convictions, I believe God exists. This is due to "tangible" experiential knowledge that may not be entirely explainable by logic.

However, an argument to say that God MUST exist rationally may not be sound as well (personally I think that God cannot be forced into a box of any dimensions, e.g. now we are trying to fit Him and His intents and purposes into a box of logical inference.

I will present to you, another analogy: Scientists claim that light is the fastest entity that man can come across. Imagine, say, that there was something faster than light. I will call it a Xynth, for lack of another word to use. When this Xynth rushes past your window of observation, the light rays that will leave your eyes will never get incident on the Xynth because it moves faster then light. So, technically, the Xynth will be there, right in front of your eyes, but you will never see it. I hope you understand. So, can one then say that light is the fastest entity that man can come across? No, a more correct statement would be that light is the fastest entity that man CAN detect (because the yardstick is the self-same light itself).

What I am saying in essence is that I believe that God, just like the Xynth I described above, may not be capturable by our human logic.

Of course, the Xynth may be capturable by the light rays if it decides to move in such a way that by the time the light rays reach it's presence, it has moved in many triangulations, going in a large circle in a sort of rigmarole just to ensure that the light rays catch it in the right position and it can be seen. The same way, God can decide to allow us to know some things about him, but it will be on his own terms. At his own pace. We cannot hurry him.

This is how I view these things.

Cheers.

^^
I'm tempted to repond but i'll just respect them as your "personal convictions".
[quote][/quote]

I see we now have a resident Larry King on nairaland , i sincerely hope that seun is paying for all this interviews that are drawing traffic to his site.

@ Poster,

I am trying to understand your thread. I know the thread specifically refers to Bawomolo & Manmustwac whom are the atheist that catch your attention , but you made a sort of reference to all atheists.

You said "I have heard from many of the Atheists on this forum (though not in decisive or concrete terms)." You did not elaborate what the subject matter was, what was it you have heard from atheists that was indecisive and inconclusive according to you - Atheism or Theism?

Then you went further to state that "The best postulations I have received have come from persons who are not atheists". Still i am still at loss as to what these postulations are. Is it postulation about religion, philosophy or theology?

Some of the others have made some attempts: never exhaustive, but at least setting forth some reasons why they find the whole idea of Deities and the Supernatural. . . . well, laughable or at most, unnecessary. These are Mazaje, Chrisbenegor and a few others.

Some attempts have been based only on snipy extracts against the more ludicrous aspects of the religious nature of man: Think Huxley.

At least here we see you are talking about the belief in deities and the supernatural. I think the Atheist stand is the most simplistic of all world views, it does not need exhaustive and esoteric explanations. It simply state that the universe as we perceive and experience it, nothing more nothing less. We rely on our own experiences, perceptions and knowledge to interpret the universe, not some ancient revelation to an ancient people, and definitely not on revelation received by any other guru, pastor, reverend, imam, etc. We are open to receive information and knowledge from what ever source we can find, but we are not bound by any such knowledge if it is incompatible with our present understanding of the universe.

My favourite quote which encompasses the beliefs of the atheist was one quoted by Siddhārtha Gautama more than 500years before Christ, and it goes;

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

These words are timeless and is relevant then during the time of the Buddha as it is today.

I am just explaining to you the mindset of the average atheist, since you do not understand why atheists reject the idea of Gods, Demons, Ghosts, Angels, etc.

@deepsight
your putting me on ths spotlight. I'll answer your questions later tonight.

haha. I just noticed this thread.

@ deepsight. . thanks for the compliment but i don't think i'm worthy of that. I just appreciate that u challenge us to think hard about stuff and I try my best. But my brain na tashere

@ bawomolo

dont be evasive. , . .I am looking out for ur response. and whats ur view on homosexuals?

@ manmustwac

it would be nice hearing ur views in an elaborate tilt. I would be popping in my bits. . .not to argue or compliment ur points. . . just to understand and see our divergent views.

@ Deep Sight.

Nice thread, but ur OP is overtly sarcastic and unnecessarily exaggerated.

Tudór:

Why off all issues homosexuality?
What exactly is wrong with homosexuality?

Tudor ?

_{sorry are you a homosexual ?}

Waiting eagerly,

honeric01:

Waiting eagerly,

Tudor please hurry up and answer the question above, stop wetting our appetite .

BADLEE:

Tudor ?

_{sorry are you a homosexual ?}

OH hell no!

BADLEE:

Tudor please hurry up and answer the question above, stop wetting our appetite .

have better things to wait for, not his being gay or not, was actually waiting for mumu bad bawo's response.

@ honeric 01,

I love your signature, that is exactlY what tpia was doing to banom' post that got banom banned.

Isn't that pathetic? That someone isn't homophobic is stupidly taken to mean that they are homosexual.

BADLEE:

@ honeric 01,

I love your signature, that is exactlY what tpia was doing to banom' post that got banom banned.

Thanks, i can name 5 moderators here on nairaland (female) that are so power drunk, i just hate it.

Deep Sight:

^^^ Ok, first off: what is your religious/ cultural background, as per family.

Then what conviced you to tow you present path (atheism)?

Oh i see what you are asking about.  Born into a Yoruba household from Osun state (actually raised in Lagos).  Raised as a baptist, was never actively involved in the doctrine but i did believe the God in the Bible was real.   I really can't pin point an event that moved me toward atheism.  what pushed me away from christianity was my growing liberalism.  As we all know, anyone who supports assisted suicide, abortion and gay marriage isn't exactly going to be enamored with Christianity.

It all started about 5 years ago when i became disillusioned with with sectarianism in Christianity and religion as a whole.   I began to wonder whether God really wanted to be worshiped and if any religion had a monopoly on the "true" word of God.   This moved me to become a deist (similar to what you are now) but deism seemed shallow to me and kind of an halfway house.   I read a few works by David Hume, John Locke and co (well i skimmed through them  ).  The more i thought about things, the more i felt the world doesn't need a God to exist nor as there being proof to support the existence of one.  Here i am today, an unapologetic atheist.

noetic15:

@ bawomolo

dont be evasive. ,  . .I am looking out for your response. and whats your view on homosexuals?

Oh i believe homosexuality is a natural side to man.  Sexuality is complex and not as simple as man and woman fuccing just to produce babies. pardon my language.   I believe homosexuals should be allowed to be what they are.   Why stop someone from doing what they love ( if it doesn't humanity as a whole) ?  I believe they should have the same rights as heterosexual couples.

[size=16pt][color=#990000 what are your perspectives, backgrounds,.][/color][/size]
Am a British Born Nigerian. Spent most of my life here in London but have lived in Nigeria for about 6 years. I come from a weak Catholic background, i say weak because my mother didn't start taking me, my junior bros and two junior sisters didn't start going to church until i was about 10 years old. There was nothing like dogma or indoctrination. We weren't even persuaded to read the bible.

Church services to me was boring and i always used to daydream during the sermon. At age 14 one Sunday during one of my daydreaming sessions i just told myself that this whole idea of an old man just saying let there be light and creating the world in 6 days was a false. Since i schooled in England i'd already known about dinosaurs and evolution. I found that theory easier to believe.

Four years later at age 18 mother stopped taking us to Catholic Church coz she felt more at home with our African white garment churches so started attending that instead. So eventually my immediate bros started going to Church of England which he still attends till today, my junior sis under the influence of one of her friends or somebody knocking on the door became a Jehovah's Witness and she persuaded her immediate junior who takes after her to become a Witness too. As for me am a 100% confirmed athiest and i've never looked back since.

I even have a junior bros and sis who weren't born the time we started going to church i'll describe them both as agnostic athiests because they've both have not been influenced by the bible or church and they're both free from religious dogma and indoctrination unlike most Nigerians who have religion indoctrinated into them from a young age

I'll answer your second question tomorrow

Deep Sight:
[size=16pt]What infoms your position[/size]

Hi Bawomolo -

Thank you so much for taking the time to make your responses.

A few comments.

bawomolo:

what pushed me away from christianity was my growing liberalism.  As we all know, anyone who supports assisted suicide, abortion and gay marriage isn't exactly going to be enamored with Christianity.

Might this suggest that your atheism is based on a rejection of norm and convention; a rejection of that which is accepted as proper in society as opposed to a definitive rejection of the idea of the existence of God? I ask this because i find within most atheists backgrounds a rejection of religion or convention, rather than a rejection of the idea of a Prime Mover.

This idea appears to be supported by your assertion -

bawomolo:

It all started about 5 years ago when i became disillusioned with with sectarianism in Christianity and religion as a whole.   I began to wonder whether God really wanted to be worshiped and if any religion had a monopoly on the "true" word of God.   

So what do you make of this idea: that it is religion and the religious type-cast of “God” that may be your annoyance: and not necessarily the idea of a Creator per se?
Thanks for your response in advance.

This moved me to become a deist (similar to what you are now) but deism seemed shallow to me and kind of an halfway house. I read a few works by David Hume, John Locke and co (well i skimmed through them ).

I feel you man. I was born into a muslim family, became a xtian 10 yrs ago but found out that Jehovah is just as bad as Allah and right now I am a proud deist.

naijababe:

I feel you man. I was born into a muslim family, became a xtian 10 yrs ago but found out that Jehovah is just as bad as Allah and right now I am  a proud deist.

All the gods of man made religions are man made ideas end of story men created all the gods and that is a FACT. . . .allah and yahweh are the same read the OT and the Koran the two gods are just the same but with different chosen people and a a little different mood of operation. . . . . .

Here's hoping that this thread doesn't get hijacked by the Bible and Quran thumpers. I am interested in the ideas of other deists

Wow!!

See bawo don get thread o!!    

I have always agreed with bawo on many things except homosexuality _{(Its not like its a bad thing, its just that it goes against the principles of nature regarding mating)}.

wirinet:

@ Poster,

At least here we see you are talking about the belief in deities and the supernatural. I think the Atheist stand is the most simplistic of all world views, it does not need exhaustive and esoteric explanations. It simply state that the universe as we perceive and experience it, nothing more nothing less. We rely on our own experiences, perceptions and knowledge to interpret the universe, not some ancient revelation to an ancient people, and definitely not on revelation received by any other guru, pastor, reverend, imam, etc. We are open to receive information and knowledge from what ever source we can find, but we are not bound by any such knowledge if it is incompatible with our present understanding of the universe.

Wow!!

beautifully written. I couldnt have said it better even if i tried.

wirinet:

@ Poster,

I am trying to understand your thread. I know the thread specifically refers to Bawomolo & Manmustwac whom are the atheist that catch your attention , but you made a sort of reference to all atheists.

You said "I have heard from many of the Atheists on this forum (though not in decisive or concrete terms)." You did not elaborate what the subject matter was, what was it you have heard from atheists that was indecisive and inconclusive according to you - Atheism or Theism?

No Atheist has ever laid down anything decisive or conclusive: nor is it possible for any atheist so to do: atheism being a negative assertion: and negative assertions regarding abstractions cannot be proved in general terms: the burden rather rests on the positive asserters to prove their assertions: hence all the trouble i have gone to in presenting proofs of the existence of God.

wirinet:


Then you went further to state that "The best postulations I have received have come from persons who are not atheists". Still i am still at loss as to what these postulations are. Is it postulation about religion, philosophy or theology?

Those best postulations I refer to are Pastor AIO and Krayola debunking my proofs of the existence of God based on logical reasoning: not that they do not believe in God, but they seek to fine-tune all lines of reasoning by debunking that which does not add up. They have been brilliant at this.

wirinet:


At least here we see you are talking about the belief in deities and the supernatural. I think the Atheist stand is the most simplistic of all world views, it does not need exhaustive and esoteric explanations. It simply state that the universe as we perceive and experience it, nothing more nothing less. We rely on our own experiences, perceptions and knowledge to interpret the universe, not some ancient revelation to an ancient people, and definitely not on revelation received by any other guru, pastor, reverend, imam, etc. We are open to receive information and knowledge from what ever source we can find, but we are not bound by any such knowledge if it is incompatible with our present understanding of the universe.

This is good. But please note that as I have severally suggested this militates more against dogma and religionist ideas than against the idea of a prime mover, yes?

Deep Sight:

Hi Bawomolo -

Thank you so much for taking the time to make your responses.

Might this suggest that your atheism is based on a rejection of norm and convention; a rejection of that which is accepted as proper in society as opposed to a definitive rejection of the idea of the existence of God?

rejection against norm and convention moved me to deism (a much safer place than organized religion), rejection against the idea of God existence moved me to atheism. 

So what do you make of this idea: that it is religion and the religious type-cast of “God” that may be your annoyance: and not necessarily the idea of a Creator per se?

I have no problem believing in a God that can be observed or experienced.  I won't worship it though.  The first question  would be what makes a God and what qualities does a God have?  Why can't there be a multitude of Creator gods?

naijababe:

I feel you man. I was born into a muslim family, became a xtian 10 yrs ago but found out that Jehovah is just as bad as Allah and right now I am  a proud deist.

Good to see you have freed yourself from dogma.   It must have being tough making the step towards deism. 

Okija_juju:

Wow!!

See bawo don get thread o!!    

I have always agreed with bawo on many things except homosexuality _{(Its not like its a bad thing, its just that it goes against the principles of nature regarding mating)}.

abi o, i can now die in peace  .   As per homosexuality,  the sole purpose of sex in nature isn't for mating though.   A significant amount of people we ignore are the bisexuals and pansexuals. They have kids while engaging in same-sex relationships at the same time.