aminusanti:


I respect n appreciate most of your post simply bcus u r honest in your replies but Pls try not to fall into this category of dis honest christian. If he has a point based on your explanation then that mean no muslim should be participating in this thread or any other xtian n muslim debate?

* Do muslims believe in Bible to 100% word of God? NO
* Do you christians know about? Yes
* why are they debating always?
*Do muslims quote bible verses in debate? YES
*Do we muslims believe bible was corrupted and altered? YES
* How do we prove that it was corrupted?
»by identifying contradiction within it
»comparing it with earlier scriptures etc
* who wrote this Book "Apocalypse of Peter"?
One of the Disciples of Jesus.
* Was dis book been use for centuries after jesus was gone ? YES

One can say he/she disagree with the scripture of "Apocalypse of Peter" as a christian by presenting his reasons but u can't stop me from making ref with it if I can present facts from it, there are a lot of things in it that correspond with the present bible today and most of dis they sometimes use to give example with all dis early christian scriptures which I believe someday you will come across it


Agreed muslims considered some hadith authentic and some not authentic. These 2 things that u are trying to compare here can never be the same as u said above.

A hadith dat is considered non authentic hadiths or weak if they r contradicting to the teaching of Quran or that has a long chain of narrator like from 1 person to another and another and it becomes something different at the end, As we all know the early stage of it's transmitted as word of mouth then much later put it in written by people so If the chain of narrators is not reliable it will be considered as weak or not authentic. there r certain methodology use when analyzing hadith authenticity which I can't xplain here maybe in a diff thread. but in the case of your Bible it is completely a different things
I don't know if you ever heard of 'RED LETTER BIBLE' in that version of new testament bible it has the word of jesus written in red which we believe is authentic but the issue is those words of jesus iz only 18% in the NT bible the remaining 82% was written by Paul containing the translation of Mathew, Luke, mark etc
In christianity despite all the crystal clear contradiction, errors and alteration in the bible one does have that privilege to analyze and select reliable and non reliable saying of these Luke, Mathew, Mark etc? NO

How are they the same pls??

Peace

Sorry for spelling the Hadith wrong . Now let us look at this critically. Any Hadith that contradicts the Quran is comsidered weak. You hold the Quran as you standard. Good. I have nothing against it. But you should understand that Christians hold the Bible as a standard as well and anything that contradicts the Bible is considered weak as well. That's why it was wrong for you to pull out a document like the apocalypse of Peter which you can't 100 percent verify it's authenticity as proof that the desciples didn't preach Jesus death and resurrection. I can pull out the hadith that Mohammed was once processed by an evil spirit. Or the one that days he was lusting for the wife of his god son. Or the one that says Muslims can pray through three goddesses and use it to discredit Islam. But I haven't done that because we can't know which hadith is right or wrong for sure, the same way u can't know how right the apocalypse of Peter is. Even you claim it is not 100 percent authentic. Don't forget that my quote in my question was from the quran (your standards) and not any hadith. My standard is the Bible and it proves that Jesus followers preached about Jesus death and resurrection. So if you want to pull out the apocalypse of Peter as authentic, I'm sorry I will have to start pulling out hadiths. And like I said, I have never heard any Muslim scholar reference that as proof of the falseness of Christianity. Doesn't that tell you something? We aren't theologians so we can't for sure proof that it is authentic. And again I have to tell you that there are no contradictions in the new testament. That's a topic for another day which I will love to discuss with you extensively.

ilynem:

OK. Let us do this one after the other. Please I don't want long answers that beat around the bush cuz they tend to cloud my understanding. I ask, u answer. Short and precise. Like I will always say, we are not arguing but learning.
QUESTION 1. did Jesus die on the cross?

U r just goin back and forth on a question u already know d ansa too, i suggest if u dont undastand prev posts, pls rd carefully, word for word, line by line, its not a must u comprehend all at once. Ur questions av long been ansad, u r just wastin tym.

ilynem:

I was writing a wrong reply but found myself deleting. Will address ur "son of man" argument much later.

Ok Thank you

But you will do me well to tell me who the "son of man" that Daniel saw was.

Jesus

Now let's do this the simple way. In order for us not to go out of topic, I will ask simple questions. And I need short answers cuz long writings can cloud my understanding.
Question one. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO

ilynem:

Sorry for spelling the Hadith wrong . Now let us look at this critically. Any Hadith that contradicts the Quran is comsidered weak. You hold the Quran as you standard. Good. I have nothing against it. But you should understand that Christians hold the Bible as a standard as well and anything that contradicts the Bible is considered weak as well. That's why it was wrong for you to pull out a document like the apocalypse of Peter which you can't 100 percent verify it's authenticity as proof that the desciples didn't preach Jesus death and resurrection.

Ok I agreed with some of your views but my point here is the Bible is a mixture of word of historian, word of theologian, word of the prophets, word of God etc unlike Quran which we believe to be word of God with 0 contradiction but d hadiths some contain errors no doubt and if u can present 1 contradiction from the Quran I will accept any hadith that u quote against Quran.

As for the bible without single doubt it has in it many contradictions and errors because its all in one book, thats why I am saying since your Bible consist all in one book there are errors and contradiction which I can put forward in a different thread why don't you do as the muslim by identifying non-authentic and weak hadith?

As for the Apocalypse of Peter I wont bother quoting it again in our discussion since u rejected it for not being authentic without reason, but I will present to u from your NT & OT how the crucifixion contradicted many verses

I can pull out the hadith that Mohammed was once processed by an evil spirit. Or the one that days he was lusting for the wife of his god son. Or the one that says Muslims can pray through three goddesses and use it to discredit Islam. But I haven't done that because we can't know which hadith is right or wrong for sure, the same way u can't know how right the apocalypse of Peter is. Even you claim it is not 100 percent authentic. Don't forget that my quote in my question was from the quran (your standards) and not any hadith. My standard is the Bible and it proves that Jesus followers preached about Jesus death and resurrection. So if you want to pull out the apocalypse of Peter as authentic, I'm sorry I will have to start pulling out hadiths. And like I said, I have never heard any Muslim scholar reference that as proof of the falseness of Christianity. Doesn't that tell you something? We aren't theologians so we can't for sure proof that it is authentic. And again I have to tell you that there are no contradictions in the new testament. That's a topic for another day which I will love to discuss with you extensively.

If you can accept n agreed some hadiths are not authentic why is it hard for u to accept the words of Luke, mathew, mark, historian, theologians in the bible can hav some errors n contradiction??

ibtz:

U r just goin back and forth on a question u already know d ansa too, i suggest if u dont undastand prev posts, pls rd carefully, word for word, line by line, its not a must u comprehend all at once. Ur questions av long been ansad, u r just wastin tym.

This is the point I stop replying you. Maybe I am not as bright as you are. All I am saying is bringing down to my level. So we take is step by step and you don't have to throw a whole ababio at me. So if you decide to reply my earlier question, then I will ask another. And we will keep going till you are able to clear my doubts. Thanks

aminusanti:

Ok I agreed with some of your views but my point here is the Bible is a mixture of word of historian, word of theologian, word of the prophets, word of God etc unlike Quran which we believe to be word of God with 0 contradiction but d hadiths some contain errors no doubt and if u can present 1 contradiction from the Quran I will accept any hadith that u quote against Quran.

As for the bible without single doubt it has in it many contradictions and errors because its all in one book, thats why I am saying since your Bible consist all in one book there are errors and contradiction which I can put forward in a different thread why don't you do as the muslim by identifying non-authentic and weak hadith?

As for the Apocalypse of Peter I wont bother quoting it again in our discussion since u rejected it for not being authentic without reason, but I will present to u from your NT & OT how the crucifixion contradicted many verses


If you can accept n agreed some hadiths are not authentic why is it hard for u to accept the words of Luke, mathew, mark, historian, theologians in the bible can hav some errors n contradiction??

You have to understand that we believe that the Bible was inspired by God. Anything inspired by cannot be false. Yes! This contained testimonies of people and most of them were first hand witnesses of Jesus life here on earth. But we are not talking about contradictions now. We should discuss it on another thread though. So I can point out some I found in the Quran so you can clear them up for me.

aminusanti:


Ok Thank you

Jesus

NO

I am happy you agreed the son of man was Jesus. So I advise you go back and read Daniel chapter 7 carefully. Then you will get my point. But let's not talk about that now. So you agree Jesus didn't die. Now here's the next question. Remember, short and straight forward. What happened to him?

ilynem:

I am happy you agreed the son of man was Jesus. So I advise you go back and read Daniel chapter 7 carefully.

I knw the chapter and I didn't see any divine about jesus, since the one who is spoken of in Daniel will be given power and so on, a divide being is not given power my friend... as I already mentioned earlier "son of man" was used in many verses in the Bible and theyr not referring to Jesus. Anyways when you have time we can discuss that much later.

Then you will get my point. But let's not talk about that now. So you agree Jesus didn't die. Now here's the next question. Remember, short and straight forward. What happened to him?

he was saved from the crucifixion by God Almighty.

ilynem:

You have to understand that we believe that the Bible was inspired by God. Anything inspired by cannot be false. Yes! This contained testimonies of people and most of them were first hand witnesses of Jesus life here on earth. But we are not talking about contradictions now. We should discuss it on another thread though. So I can point out some I found in the Quran so you can clear them up for me.

Ok no problem I will be waiting. Thank you

aminusanti:

I knw the chapter and I didn't see any divine about jesus, since the one who is spoken of in Daniel will be given power and so on, a divide being is not given power my friend... as I already mentioned earlier "son of man" was used in many verses in the Bible and theyr not referring to Jesus. Anyways when you have time we can discuss that much later.
he was saved from the crucifixion by God Almighty.

Good. So where did the idea that He died come from?

ilynem:

Good. So where did the idea that He died come from?

the jews

aminusanti:
the jews

I wonder. Why did they think these way?

ilynem:

I wonder. Why did they think these way?

God made them to think that way. After d crucifixion jesus made a number of appearances after His death. They were to a number of different people over a forty-day period such as mary, his disciples and many more for them to know he wasn't been killed

aminusanti:
God made them to think that way. After d crucifixion jesus made a number of appearances after His death. They were to a number of different people over a forty-day period such mary, his disciples and many more for them to know he wasn't been killed

Thank u. And do you think that this appearance He made might have made them think he died and resurrected?

Am sorry for been critical and straight forward, how an educated grown up adult cannot differentiate between right and wrong amaze me. According to many erudite Christian scholars, the modern Bible is not the world of God. For example.
Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the MOODY BIBLE INSTITUTE, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian Evangelical Mission in the world, answering the question — "Is the Bible the Word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: IT IS HUMAN, YET DIVINE. He says on page 17: "Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men

aminusanti:

Ok no problem I will be waiting. Thank you

ilynem:

Thank u. And do you think that this appearance He made might have made them think he died and resurrected?

No I don't think so

ilynem:

Thank u. And do you think that this appearance He made might have made them think he died and resurrected?

You satisfied now with his responses. Are you convinced

aminusanti:
No I don't think so

So you are telling me, that the disciples of Jesus knew he didn't die nor resurrect. And since Jesus was a prophet of Islam, his followers preaches Islam?

Empiree:
You satisfied now with his responses. Are you convinced

We are going somewhere.

ilynem:

So you are telling me, that the disciples of Jesus knew he didn't die nor resurrect. And since Jesus was a prophet of Islam, his followers preaches Islam?

aminusanti, we are waiting o

ilynem:

So you are telling me, that the disciples of Jesus knew he didn't die nor resurrect.

Yes they knw

And since Jesus was a prophet of Islam, his followers preaches Islam?

yes.
as i mentioned earlier jesus followers/disciples and Paul were not preaching the same doctrine and did not believe in the same jesus , the early followers and disciples of jesus they submit to the will of God Almighty and follow the commandments and anyone who follow the teachings of jesus and submit to the will of his maker he/she is a muslim and again islam means submission.
I can provide proofs for my claims

islam is a LIAR and the Antichrist for denying the father has a son.

1 John 2:22

And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an ANTICHRIST.

2 John 1:7

I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an ANTICHRIST.

aminusanti:

Yes they knw

yes.
as i mentioned earlier jesus followers/disciples and Paul were not preaching the same doctrine and did not believe in the same jesus , the early followers and disciples of jesus they submit to the will of God Almighty and follow the commandments and anyone who follow the teachings of jesus and submit to the will of his maker he/she is a muslim and again islam means submission.
I can provide proofs for my claims

Good. Now let's assume the followers of Jesus (12 of them) preached Islam. How come there was absolutely no record of Muslims till the birth of the prophet Muhammad? They obviously weren't doing a good Job, don't you think?

ilynem:

Good. Now let's assume the followers of Jesus (12 of them) preached Islam. How come there was absolutely no record of Muslims till the birth of the prophet Muhammad? They obviously weren't doing a good Job, don't you think?

i don't have any proof for that but defnitely they r, even if there re non that proved nothing... how many followers did prophet Noah had after preaching for 120yrs according Genesis?

aminusanti:
i don't have any proof for that but defnitely they r, even if there re non that proved nothing... how many followers did prophet Noah had after preaching for 120yrs according Genesis?

So basically, Jesus and His followers actually accomplished nothing. Remember Jesus told them "greater things shall you do in my name". So According to you, Jesus lied. So what was the point of the whole drama behind Jesus birth? Prophesies? Virgin birth? John the Baptist preparing a way for him, the miracles, in fact according to your logic, Jesus was a prophet of Islam but a failed prophet of Islam as even His followers were outsmarted by a false prophet named Paul. 12 against 1. 12 for God, 1 for Satan. That one won and gave birth to the biggest belief system in the world today. And as for Noah, he actually fulfilled his destiny by continuing humanity. But let us focus on Jesus.

ilynem:

So basically, Jesus and His followers actually accomplished nothing.

According to u they accomplished nothing but that gospel that u are having is a guide despite the alteration n conruption in it, it can direct you to the right path (islam) if u re a careful person n u can open your eyes n ur heart for truth...this is test for you not a failure from Jesus, they accomplish their own part now it's your turn to accomplish yours by finding the truth.. but where jesus teach you people to worship him...

☆Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

☆Genesis 17:3
Abram fell face down on the ground. Then pray God
☆Number 20:6
Moses fell on his face and prayed
☆Jushua 5:14
Jushua fell on his face and prayed
☆Matthew; 26:39
Jesus fell on his face and prayed

they all pray to God and they ask their follower to do the same without any intercession.

☆John 7:16
So Jesus told them, "My message is not my own; it comes from God who sent me. (A MESSENGER)

Remember Jesus told them "greater things shall you do in my name". So According to you, Jesus lied.

When u read John 8:28 u will surely see dis verses r contradicting each other , from there u can know is the Liar

So what was the point of the whole drama behind Jesus birth?
Prophesies?
Virgin birth?

To God nothing is impossible, we have seen similar cases to other prophets b4 jesus

[QURAN 003:059] The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

John the Baptist preparing a way for him, the miracles,

again there r alot of greater miracles done by some prophet b4 jesus by the permission of God. Jesus can't do a single miracle by himself

in fact according to your logic, Jesus was a prophet of Islam but a failed prophet of Islam as even His followers were outsmarted by a false prophet named Paul. 12 against 1. 12 for God, 1 for Satan. That one won and gave birth to the biggest belief system in the world today. And as for Noah, he actually fulfilled his destiny by continuing humanity. But let us focus on Jesus.

thats how u view it but thats completely wrong. Paul deceived no one but himself and the one that fall in his trap, he was the one that jesus prophesize in ur bible as antichrist and God Almighty allowed it to happen in other to know the true followers of God. Try not judge a religion based on it size

"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it"

Pls help me answer this below

☆ Jesus was disguised as a gardener. Why would Resurrected bodies need to be disguised as a gardener?

☆Jesus forbids Mary Magdalene from touching him. because Jesus’s physical body was hurt and not yet fully healed. It would hurt Jesus if Mary touched him. (John 20:15-17) does ressurected body feel pain?

☆Jesus says that he had not yet ascended unto his father, which means he was alive. (John 20:17)

☆Mary Magdalene was not afraid to recognize him. Proving Jesus was alive. (John 20:16) why?

☆In the upper room, Jesus shows his hands and feet to show he wasn’t a spirit but he was alive. (Luke 24:36-49)

☆The Disciples, who were not there during his alleged crucifixion were overjoyed to see him. They were overjoyed because he was alive. (See above verse)

☆Jesus eats broiled fish and honey comb to prove he was alive. Ressurected bodies don’t have physical bodies therefore resurrected bodies don’t need to eat. DO THEY? (Luke24:36-49)

☆The disciples hear from Mary Magdalene that Jesus was alive. (Mark 16:9-11)

☆The sign of Jonah, Matthew 12:40. The completion of the sign of Jonah is only if Jesus survived his ordeal as Jonah before him survived his.

☆During the days of jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petition with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.. whats this verse saying pls??

aminusanti:

According to u they accomplished nothing but that gospel that u are having is a guide despite the alteration n conruption in it, it can direct you to the right path (islam) if u a careful person n u can open your eyes n ur heart for truth...this is test for you not a failure from Jesus, they accomplish their own part now it's your turn to accomplish yours by finding the truth.. but where jesus teach you people to worship him...

☆Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

☆Genesis 17:3
Abram fell face down on the ground. Then pray God
☆Number 20:6
Moses fell on his face and prayed
☆Jushua 5:14
Jushua fell on his face and prayed
☆Matthew; 26:39
Jesus fell on his face and prayed

they all pray to God and they ask their follower to do the same without any intercession.

☆John 7:16
So Jesus told them, "My message is not my own; it comes from God who sent me. (A MESSENGER)


When u read John 8:28 u will surely see dis verses r contradicting each other , from there u can know is the Liar

To God nothing is impossible, we have seen similar cases to other prophets b4 jesus

[QURAN 003:059] The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.


again there r alot of greater miracles done by some prophet b4 jesus by the permission of God. Jesus can't do a single miracle by himself
thats how u view it but thats complete wrong. Paul deceived no one but himself and the one that fall in his trap, he was the one that jesus prophesize in ur bible as antichrist and God Almighty allowed it to happen in other to know the true followers of God. Try not judge a religion based on it size

"Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong if everyone is doing it"

Pls help me answer this below

☆ Jesus was disguised as a gardener. Why would Resurrected bodies need to be disguised as a gardener?

☆Jesus forbids Mary Magdalene from touching him. because Jesus’s physical body was hurt and not yet fully healed. It would hurt Jesus if Mary touched him. (John 20:15-17) does ressurected body feel pain?

☆Jesus says that he had not yet ascended unto his father, which means he was alive. (John 20:17)

☆Mary Magdalene was not afraid to recognize him. Proving Jesus was alive. (John 20:16) why?

☆In the upper room, Jesus shows his hands and feet to show he wasn’t a spirit but he was alive. (Luke 24:36-49)

☆The Disciples, who were not there during his alleged crucifixion were overjoyed to see him. They were overjoyed because he was alive. (See above verse)

☆Jesus eats broiled fish and honey comb to prove he was alive. Ressurected bodies don’t have physical bodies therefore resurrected bodies don’t need to eat. DO THEY? (Luke24:36-49)

☆The disciples hear from Mary Magdalene that Jesus was alive. (Mark 16:9-11)

☆The sign of Jonah, Matthew 12:40. The completion of the sign of Jonah is only if Jesus survived his ordeal as Jonah before him survived his.

☆During the days of jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petition with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.. whats this verse saying pls??

Sir. You are diverting. Explaining those verses you quoted above will derail this thread. Let's save that for another day. Now let's assume I agree with you. Jesus was a prophet. Jesus didn't die. His followers preached Islam (even though there is absolutely no proof of that). The Gospels were corrupted and all that. So let's leave the four Gospels out now. Are u telling me that the 12 of them (and Jesus) couldn't get even one Islamic convert?
Now the second question. If Jesus was just another prophet, what made his teachings different that the Jews actually wanted to kill him?

ilynem:

Sir. You are diverting. Explaining those verses you quoted above will derail this thread. Let's save that for another day.

Those verses are part of queries u raised and thats why i askd u to rectify them for us

Now let's assume I agree with you. Jesus was a prophet. Jesus didn't die. His followers preached Islam (even though there is absolutely no proof of that). The Gospels were corrupted and all that. So let's leave the four Gospels out now. Are u telling me that the 12 of them (and Jesus) couldn't get even one Islamic convert?

is like u are trying to ignore my prev answers, i already answered u on this. I said anyone that follow the teaching that was sent tru jesus by God until the time of prophet mohammad he is a muslim and no doubt there will b alot people that follow the teachings but i have no proofs for that..

Now the second question. If Jesus was just another prophet, what made his teachings different that the Jews actually wanted to kill him?

Why don't u tell us why?

aminusanti:

Those verses are part of queries u raised and thats why i askd u to rectify them for us

is like u are trying to ignore my prev answers, i already answered u on this. I said anyone that follow the teaching that was sent tru jesus by God until the time of prophet mohammad he is a muslim and no doubt there will b alot people that follow the teachings but i have no proofs for that..

Why don't u tell us why?

So basically, Paul and Satan spread a false message way faster than Jesus, his twelve and God. So that's concluded.
And you really should answer my second question. You are the teacher here and I am the student. Remember I am not arguing with you. I am just trying to understand you and your belief.

ilynem:

So basically, Paul and Satan spread a false message way faster than Jesus, his twelve and God. So that's concluded.

you can decide to conclude it anyhow that will suit you but anytime u r ready for the truth you can always refer to my last2 post which i already explain in detail and i ask u question u refuse to answer

And you really should answer my second question. You are the teacher here and I am the student. Remember I am not arguing with you. I am just trying to understand you and your belief.

As for ur 2nd query, nothing makes his teachings different from the other prophets b4 him which was to worship our creator alone without associating partners but ur bible said they wanted to kill him because he claim to be son of God which is not even close to the truth, any time you want to discussion on that topic "son of God" pls tag me.
The main reason why the jews wanted to kill him was
Because he was trying to get them to leave their evils ways and return to the true teachings of Musa(Moses)(AS). But they didn't like this one bit so they hatched a plot to kill Isa(AS) but Allah(SWT) saved him from them and raised him up. This happens to most of the prophets of God, do a little research on that n you will see nothing differentiate him from other prophet in terms of trial

alBHAGDADI:
islam is a LIAR and the Antichrist for denying the father has a son.

1 John 2:22

And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an ANTICHRIST.

2 John 1:7

I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an ANTICHRIST.

This post of your is quiet irrational. Did any muslim deny Jesus(p) being Christ?

ilynem:

So basically, Paul and Satan spread a false message way faster than Jesus, his twelve and God. So that's concluded.
And you really should answer my second question. You are the teacher here and I am the student. Remember I am not arguing with you. I am just trying to understand you and your belief.

See now that you are alone?. Now that the muslim brother, aminusanti is somehow interested in this thread, they disappeared. They only want to talk trash. You are alone striving to deal with the situation here. They knew they cant succeed debating muslims.

bagdhadi that came around recently only talked trash again. Thats what they do best. You kicked off like a lion and ending up like a wingless bird