hello ladies and gents, theists, deists and atheists in house, over the course of the week i"ll will be posting evidence that God exist from sciene, everyone is welcomed to challenge what he thinks its not right...Lego

CASE 1

If God Created Everything, Who Created God?
by Rich Deem

Introduction
How did God get here?
Richard Dawkins, among other atheists, thinks he has the ultimate proof that God doesn't exist. If God created a complex universe, wouldn't it take an even more complex entity to have created God? However, such logic assumes that time has always existed, rather than being merely a construct of this universe.

Rich Deem
Who created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues?

Christianity's answer
Christianity answers the question of who made God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tell us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)
7 Truths that Changed the World: Discovering Christianity's Most Dangerous IdeasThe idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:

"And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: 'Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.' Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"1

God exists in timeless eternity
How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astrophysics Reveal about the Glory and Love of God

God exists in multiple dimensions of time
The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimensions of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

Why can't the universe be eternal?
The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempts to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.Without a Doubt: Answering the 20 Toughest Faith Questions

What does science say about time?
[/b]When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.
[b]
Conclusion Top of page
God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.8 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Being an atheist is a great step which MUST lead to knowing the facts and science about God.

But for the dysfunctional atheists, there is nothing you can do to convince a dysfunctional atheist to believe in the existence of God. It is beyond their capacity to understand. It is not because they are ignorant, it is because their brain is not equipped to understand anything outside of logic. With a functional left brain hemisphere and an under-developed right brain, where impulsive, intuitive vibes from sub-conscious mind is modulated, what can a man do ? Nothing, it is their nature and until they pay attention to it, it is sorry for them.

By the way, I was an atheist for 10yrs and it helped me evolved.

Billyonaire:
Being an atheist is a great step which MUST lead to knowing the facts and science about God.

But for the dysfunctional atheists, there is nothing you can do to convince a dysfunctional atheist to believe in the existence of God. It is beyond their capacity to understand. It is not because they are ignorant, it is because their brain is not equipped to understand anything outside of logic. With a functional left brain hemisphere and an under-developed right brain, where impulsive, intuitive vibes from sub-conscious mind is modulated, what can a man do ? Nothing, it is their nature and until they pay attention to it, it is sorry for them.

By the way, I was an atheist for 10yrs and it helped me evolved.

The Joy of being a believer is truly unimaginable..



Your right.. I dunno how atheist don't see this.. Its as if a veil covers their eyes and very thinking.. Yet they think we are the underdeveloped

ifex370:



The Joy of being a believer is truly unimaginable..



Your right.. I dunno how atheist don't see this.. Its as if a veil covers their eyes and very thinking.. Yet they think we are the underdeveloped

Actually, "believing" leaves many unaswered questions. It is when you abandon belief and use the sciences as a tool to validate the concepts that you can be convinced that there is something out there, out there that science is not an excellent tool to work with. Then you use psychology to understand the mind, then there is level to where psychology can take you to, as one has to be wholly connected to source to grasp what happens beyond the 3rd dimension. Then there are other tools that take you beyond the mind, soul and etc etc.

Do not blame them, I think Atheist are better believers when they eventually figure out the matrix. I could practically teach Pastors about God and I have done that many times. And it happens that they keep talking of faith and believe and wisdom when they know little about the true nature of God and ofcourse ignorant about how the world came to be.

By and large, no one is wrong. Everyone is brooding through life since we were not presented with a manual when we came in here. But how can we be provided a manual ? Naaah....You need to raise your vibration to a certain threshold to download the manual. That is wisdom.

where are the atheists?

CASE 2

There is Too Much Evil and Suffering For God to Exist? by Rich Deem

introduction
Purpose of Evil?
Most atheists assume that a personal God would only create a universe that is both good morally and perfect physically. However, according to Christianity, the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good choices. One cannot choose between good and bad if bad did not exist. It's an amazing simple logical principle.

Rich Deem
Atheists often claim that the presence of evil is an argument against the existence of God. The Christian God is supposed to be both loving and all-powerful. Despite these characteristics, God seems to be unable or unwilling to prevent the vast amount of evil and suffering in the world. The atheist concludes that either God is not loving or not all-powerful or that God does not exist, because if He did exist, He could stop all the suffering. The atheistic arguments contain some subtle assumptions that, as I will show, do not apply to the God of the Bible and His created universe. Even the assumption that evil and suffering are bad for us must be questioned in light of what the Bible says. This page specifically defends the principle that moral evil must exist. Another page examines the reasons why natural evil must exist. Although many atheists claim the presence of moral evil precludes the existence of God, others admit that God would be completely justified in allowing moral evil.1

The atheists' logical argument
What I have found is that atheists like to say that their arguments against God's existence specifically exclude the God of the Bible as a God who could exist. However, in reality, atheists produce generic arguments against a generic God whose characteristics and creation do not match those that are described in the Bible. Atheists may not accept what the Bible says, but they cannot say the God of the Bible cannot logically exist and then ignore what the Bible has to say about the characteristics of God. If the atheist states that the God of the Bible is logically impossible, he cannot pick and choose which arguments from the Bible to accept in order to "prove" his point. Let's formalize the atheist's arguments:

God is all-powerful, loving, and perfect.
A perfect, loving God would create a universe that was perfect (e.g., no evil and suffering).
The universe is not perfect but contains evil and suffering.

Therefore, God does not exist.
The Bible's Response
The Bible does state that God is "all powerful." In the Old Testament, one of God's titles is "El Shadday," which is translated "God Almighty."2 The Bible also states that God is loving.3 In fact, the Bible indicates that God is love.4 The Bible also indicates that God is perfect.5 So, we can agree that the first statement is a correct interpretation of what the Bible says about the characteristics of God.

The next statement indicates that a perfect, loving God must create a universe that is perfect. This is the statement that is false and invalidates the argument. Nowhere does the Bible state that the universe was created to be perfect. God Himself called it "good"6 and "very good,"7 but never "perfect." In fact, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good."8 The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect,9 but was designed to be temporary10 and will be replaced with a perfect universe11 that will be permanent.12 Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.13

Why two creations instead of one?
Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe. One can find the reason for the creation of the universe in the first few chapters of the Bible. God created humans in order to have a personal relationship with them, which He had with Adam and Eve before they sinned (Genesis 2). Jesus said that the first and foremost commandment was to "Love the Lord your God..."14 A personal relationship, characterized by the possibility of love, is only possible if created beings are given free will. If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, and, as such, would essentially be programmed computers. Such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice - which requires the ability to choose not to love. For example, I can program my computer to say "I love you" when it starts up. Does this mean that the computer really loves me? Of course not! Likewise, God could have programmed humans to say that they loved Him, without the possibility of rejecting Him or performing evil deeds. However, these programmed beings would exhibit about as much true love as my computer - not a very satisfying relationship. Therefore, God created the universe for the express purpose of allowing free will spiritual beings the opportunity to have fellowship with Him (and likewise, reject Him).

What does God want?
God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet:

Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)

This parable tells that God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions15 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.

Therefore. the Bible says that God allows temporary, bounded evil16 in order to allow free will beings to have the ability to love and to make choices. I am going to propose something which seems to support the atheists' arguments regarding evil. I agree that there is a lot of evil in the world. In fact, there is too much evil in the world from what would be expected from chaos theory or the laws of physics. Evolution does not explain the vast amount of evil done by mankind. None of the other creatures on our planet have the capacity for evil that mankind have. No other mammals kill arbitrarily. They only kill to eat and survive - but not mankind. Just watch the nightly news or read your newspaper. Look at all the evil perpetuated in the last century alone - 6 million Jews killed by Hitler, 40 million Russians killed by Stalin, 2 million Cambodians killed by their own government in the 1970's. In fact, the Pol Pot regime specifically preached atheism and sought to exterminate all religious expression in Cambodia. In addition to these atrocities, there have been hundreds of massacres committed in virtually every nation of the world. The Bible says that the presence of evil is due to the spiritual component of our nature - something that animals do not possess. God endowed His spiritual creatures (humans and angels) with free will to love God or to oppose Him. The most powerful created being (the angel Satan) rebelled and led one third of the angels into opposition against God. Those humans who oppose or ignore God follow Satan into rebellion - either consciously or unconsciously. Some people blame the evil on "society." However, society is composed of individuals who make individual choices. Most of the evil is committed by people who oppose the will of society. In contrast, there are many examples of societies in the animal kingdom, especially among the primates. None of these societies have the capacity for evil that we have. We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.17

Why pain is necessary
The atheist also makes the assumption that all pain, suffering, and death are bad or evil. In fact, physical pain is absolutely vital to our survival. If we felt no pain, we would do things to ourselves that could be very destructive.18 For example, if we didn't feel pain when we touched a hot object, we would not react until we saw our flesh smoking. This is obviously not a good thing to do. Pain tells us we need to react to a situation before serious damage occurs.

Evil as a means of spiritual growth
Many things that people consider to be bad are, in fact, useful in our spiritual growth. The Bible says that trials in our lives produce perseverance, which helps make us mature and complete.19 These trials also increase our faith - a "refining by fire."20 The Bible tells us that "all things to work together for good to those who love God."21 Let me give you a couple concrete examples in my own life that illustrate these points.

I got very sick in 1985, at which time the tests revealed I had Crohn's disease, a serious, incurable inflammatory disease of the intestines. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. I was bedridden in severe pain for two months, with the medicine doing nothing to improve my condition. I considered that I would probably spend the rest of my life in pain, in and out of hospitals. Not being able to do anything else in my own strength, I cried out to God and promised to try to follow Him and do what He wanted me to do (although I had no idea what that was at the time). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. The trial was awful at the time, but God had to break my will, so that, when I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ three years later, I accepted it and turned my life over to Jesus, which has been the greatest joy of my life. In addition, I am much more thankful for my good health since that time of trial, and have been more sympathetic and helpful to others who are undergoing similar trials.

In 1996 my wife Carole and I learned that she had an inoperable brain tumor, and was expected to live four to seven years. We had been married only seven years and had three sons, aged 5, 3 and 1 years old at the time. The time since then has been difficult, but it has produced some remarkable changes in Carole. Her interest in jewelry, clothes, and other unimportant things has been replaced by a heightened commitment to family, and raising our boys. She also is more committed to helping others and regularly offers help as she is able. In addition, during this time God has been faithful in answering our prayers and comforting us through the many people who have loved us. What has been abundantly clear is that those people who have gone through the most severe trials are the ones who have ministered most to us. The trials these people have experienced have made them sensitive to the needs of others in similar situations, in ways that only they can understand. I know through this trial God will make me a better ambassador of Jesus Christ, and bring me opportunities for ministry which I would have ignored, had I not gone through this experience. In talking to other Christians about sufferings, you will find that it is through trials that they grow in their character and their faith. During the "easy" times, we become complacent. For the non-Christian, he sees the trials as mere annoyance or pointless suffering, often resulting in bitterness.

Conclusion Top of page


God did not design this universe to be perfect, but as a temporary creation where free will beings make choices about where they want to spend eternity (in the new creation, which will be perfect).
The new creation will be perfect, but will not have absolute free will for its inhabitants. We must agree in this life to give up some of our free will in the next life. Those who are unwilling to give up their own free will choices will not be forced to do so in the next life. However, they will have to be separated from the new creation, since God is unwilling to compromise His character.
All people will suffer at least somewhat because of bad choices that others make. In addition, because of the temporary nature of the universe, some bad things will happen to us due to "bad luck" or chance. However, these things will teach us to be more sensitive to the needs of others, and will prepare us to show God's love to others when they suffer through similar things. God want us to learn from this life, not just have a party.

Who cares about who created God? Does that question even make sense? We ask, please show us proof of his existence. Simple. You now go to an unsubstantiated book to prove the existence of an unsubstantiated God. That's a circular argument. I don't believe in God because there is no evidence for his existence. Period.
PS philosophical gymnastics is not evidence please. Thank you.

gabe:
Who cares about who created God? Does that question even make sense? We ask, please show us proof of his existence. Simple. You now go to an unsubstantiated book to prove the existence of an unsubstantiated God. That's a circular argument. I don't believe in God because there is no evidence for his existence. Period.
PS philosophical gymnastics is not evidence please. Thank you.

the same can be said about you, u said u dont believe in God because there is no evidence for his existence, and yet u dont have an evidence of the universe creating itself out of nothing.

Deism rocks

Deism rocks, It gives you the space to search for your creator.

Erm...op, I'm still looking for the 'scientific evidence' of yahweh in this post or is there another definition of 'scientific evidence' in your village we're oblivious of?
Just wondering

All I see is philosophy and like Gabe said, 'Philosopical gymnastics is not evidence...'
Thank you.

JSoE:
Erm...op, I'm still looking for the 'scientific evidence' of yahweh in this post or is there another definition of 'scientific evidence' in your village we're oblivious of?
Just wondering

All I see is philosophy and like Gabe said, 'Philosopical gymnastics is not evidence...'
Thank you.

do u av evidence that galilee galileo existed before?

leggo

unnecessary shits

@op,


Atheists---" We don't know what, if anything, caused the Big Bang, but we're working on it."
Christians---"Our God designed and caused the origin of the universe, but we can't prove it."

@Billyionaire,

"It is beyond their capacity to understand"---Give me the evidence of what you are referring to, and I will understand!!! tThe evidence must be credible, objective, and verifiable!!! Where is this your god, @Billyonaire!!!

Niflheim:
@op,


Atheists---" We don't know what, if anything, caused the Big Bang, but we're working on it."
Christians---"Our God designed and caused the origin of the universe, but we can't prove it."

@Billyionaire,

"It is beyond their capacity to understand"---Give me the evidence of what you are referring to, and I will understand!!! tThe evidence must be credible, objective, and verifiable!!! Where is this your god, @Billyonaire!!!

Will your mind be able to grasp the empirical evidence? Will you be able to keep an open mind, letting go of these blockades that comes with atheism? The truth of it all is that life is a puzzle.. A mind game. There are a lot of possibilities. Stop limiting yourself with this atheist shit. . You're MORE!

CriticMaestro:
do u av evidence that galilee galileo existed before?

No! and your point is

CriticMaestro:
do u av evidence that galilee galileo existed before?

so you admit you don't have evidence

Billyonaire:
Being an atheist is a great step which MUST lead to knowing the facts and science about God.

But for the dysfunctional atheists, there is nothing you can do to convince a dysfunctional atheist to believe in the existence of God. It is beyond their capacity to understand. It is not because they are ignorant, it is because their brain is not equipped to understand anything outside of logic. With a functional left brain hemisphere and an under-developed right brain, where impulsive, intuitive vibes from sub-conscious mind is modulated, what can a man do ? Nothing, it is their nature and until they pay attention to it, it is sorry for them.

By the way, I was an atheist for 10yrs and it helped me evolved.

Do you have any evidence for this diagnosis of millions of atheists worldwide?

CoolUsername:


Do you have any evidence for this diagnosis of millions of atheists worldwide?

I am a global citizen.

HenryDion:


Will your mind be able to grasp the empirical evidence? Will you be able to keep an open mind, letting go of these blockades that comes with atheism? The truth of it all is that life is a puzzle.. A mind game. There are a lot of possibilities. Stop limiting yourself with this atheist shit. . You're MORE!

Maybe you should start by providing the 'empirical evidence' first.

Billyonaire:
I am a global citizen.

I am the Saiyan prince.

CoolUsername:

I am the Saiyan prince.

I'm an astronaut

Funny people above (I'm an - crew)

Why does someone keep reiterating that he has been atheist for ten years and that other atheists have underdeveloped right brain?

DeSepiero:
Why does someone keep reiterating that he has been atheist for ten years and that other atheists have underdeveloped right brain?

its all superiority complex my brother